Yeah id rather play bitterblossom and secure the wastes than legions landing or raisr the alarm.
Upside is much higher and will be more valuable in a sideboarded g2 3. In game 1 you probably get them with creativity easily
That sounds great in theory, please let me know how your games go.
My experience with bitterblossom is I have to board it out most of the time. Nobody is playing jund or grixis control. It's only good against UW out of the current meta. Against aggro (spirits, humans, phoenix, dredge) and tron, it's basically a dead draw. And these 5 decks alone form a large % of your meta. If you're seeing plenty of jund and grixis in your locale then by all means, blossom away.
Secure the wastes produces the same effect as raise at 3 cmc, or turn 3. The only time it becomes an upside is when you are past turn 4 and technically should have combo'ed already. Raise the alarm as I mentioned works with legion's Landing to ramp you 1 turn ahead. Legion's landing also serves a secondary function in padding your life total against the ubiquitous aggro in modern, and it if flips, then it does even more work than secure the wastes in the late game.
Raise costing 2 is also ideal for another reason. On turn 3, the turn before you expect to combo, you can spend 1 mana on a discard spell to strip any spot removal or countermagic, then hold up 2 for the Raise and check the opponent.
I will be replacing Noxious Revival with Finale of Promise. In return for not being able to get a bear off of a gifts pile I get something quite bit more interesting. Gifts piles with Finale in the equations become quite a bit exciting.
How have you been doing with final promise main deck?
I havent gotten round to this. Been doing other experiments with WAR cards in my other decks eg. the new bolas in my grixis control and saheeli in my creativity deck.
Uh, did you try it yet? I'm kinda keen to know if it does as good as it sounds in theory.
I always thought that Legion's Landing doesnt fit this style of deck because it's sorcery speed, but yeah I'll try it out.
Has WOTC ever printed a Raise the Alarm with a different name?
There are a few 2 cmc, produce 2 token cards, but Raise is the only one that's instant speed.
Legion's landing is OK in your jeskai deck the same way Serum Visions would be OK in your jeskai deck. It's one mana, best played on turn 1, and sets you up for an awesome turn 2 and 3.
No legions landing? Legions Landing and raise the alarm is how you threaten a turn 3 polymorph or creativity. I think with countermagic u want to play even more instant speed token makers, because you hold up mana and if nothing is worth countering your drop tokens on the board. 4 secure seems overdoing it as sometimes u just want an efficient generator that u can use turn 2 or 3.
I have a playset of rptq emrakul, and it does look great. And it's a foil alt art emrakul at maybe 5 bucks more than a normal one.
yea im all about the alt arts, which is why I'm using prerelease emmy and vault iona, and FNM paths and pushes. I want a foil AA Saheeli Sublime, but she actually falls into the category of "you can't buy this even if you got the cash". Literally can't be found in my locale.
yeah that's my main concern... though i'm still debating. gonna get a 3rd one and give it a try
Not discouraging you, but I think an interesting data point you may wish to consider is Mythic Championship contenders Luis and Petr played UW control and they both had 2 copies of Teferi, and 3 copies of JTMS. Their curve and land count is not unlike ours, so I think this could be relevant.
But if we're comparing Shalai and Iona, then... the only upside is her castability. Kolaghan offers something different (and very attractive when X=2), which makes her a contender with Iona.
Speaking of Creativity pulling 2 wincons, if you put a Dragonlord Kolaghan and an Emrakul you can actually just straight up hit the opponent for 21. And even off of a Creativity x=1, Dragonlord Kolaghan is not embarassing.
Tho my personal spice is to play Lightning Greaves, this way Polymorph won't pick up the Lightning Greaves while Creativity x=2 can still allow for a Shrouded hasty Emrakul
Great minds think alike! I did consider the d-lord kolaghan for some time. Thing is,I'm put off by any target that can be solved with a spot removal. Still, 6 hasty damage in the air is not nothing, and I like that if there's a teferi on the board u can probably kill him in 1 swing. Perhaps the biggest upside is unlike Iona, you could actually hardcast her a lot of the time.
It's a rock and a hard place thing... you wanna see exactly 1 but if you have multiples before turn 5 or the 5th land drop they're basically dead draws... so far with 2, I'm not consistently getting him, but there were already games i would draw both, and this deck wants to keep attacking the board or hand while also making land drops.
G2: T1 discard into T2 discard into T3 LotV, killed every creature opponent landed. opponent scooped after resolving nicol bolas
Yessss this is it, this is pretty much the NBDG experience. When the starting hand + early draws is 3 discard spells or 2 discard 1 removal and lily it's just horrendous. NBDG basically lives off that start and seals the game.
Match 1 UW Control (win)
G1 I begin to appreciate just how powerful discard is against blue based control. On the play, I strip a logic knot, then thoughtseize a cryptic command and inquisition a D sphere, leaving behind lands and Elspeth. Lily OTV comes down unhindered and starts ticking up. When Bolas hits the board, opp scoops.
OUT: 2 Terminates, 1 Engineered, 1 Lily last hope. IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Dovin, 1 Spell Snare
G2 I draw less of the discard half but I have squall and sideboarded dispels in my hand. I make the first non-cantrip play of the game somewhere on turn 5 or 6, and I see 2 Clique, 1 Teferi, 2 Cryptics and 1 Dispel. That's a pretty stacked hand. I take the dispel so my squall can do work, but I have 2 clique I need to worry about. Eventually I snap opt and start beating in. His teferi comes down after he cliques away my squall, and he sees my NBDG, squall (bottomed), dispel, 2 snaps. With the +1 on the stack I flash in the 2 snaps in my hand so I have 6 power on the board. I draw a Brutality off the top, which turns out to be pretty brutal since he was counting on his logic knot and 3 mana up to stop my NBDG. I strip the knot away and his 2 cryptic commands sit stranded in the hand while NBDG comes down and removes Teferi with the -3. The rest of the game is downhill from there - 2 snaps continue beating, and NBDG eats a D sphere but the damage is done. I eventually finish the game with snap beats.
Match 2 Burn (win)
G1 I lose the die roll AND draw the thoughtseizes but not the brutalities, which is NOT good. Light Up the Stage is terrific against discard, rendering my topdecked discard spells and LOTV useless while i stare at my doom in the exile zone across the table.
OUT: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 JTMS, 1 Lily last hope. IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dovin Hand of control
G2 goes a lot smoother. I push the T1 swifty, strip a couple of burn spells, then land Dovin, Hand of Control while his hand is stacked with 2 mana burn, which is now 3 mana to cast. With the burn slowed down I have more draw steps and steadily build my mana and stabilize. Between snaps, squalls and brutality damage I am able to close the game.
G3 is pretty tight but I manage to stabilize at 3 life, holding off any attempts to overload my counterspells with Dovin, while snaps, squalls and dispels keep me alive. A couple of fatal pushes also make timely appearances. But what probably pushed the scales in my favor was brutality snap brutality.
Match 3 Hollow One (win)
G1 is a bit lucky - oppo mulls to 5. That he still manages to push me to 2 life is testament to the deck. There's not much can be done about turn 1 hollow one except to pray to draw the terminates or bores, which I eventually do else it might have been a lot worse.
G2 all I get is 2 turns. I lay tar pit turn 1, play JVP turn 2, and die to his t1 Hollow, T2 phoenix attack for 6, into t3 angler+bushwhacker attack for 16. Haha ok.
G3 my control deck does what it's supposed to - I strip the looting spells, push the small threats, terminate a big one. Lily the last hope arrives, makes a phoenix a 0/2 for a couple of turns. Eventually I draw and play NBDG, and I start accumulating card advantage while Lily keeps the bird small. His resources depleted by discard, removals, counterspells and bolas, oppo scoops with an empty hand against my nearly full grip and a board of 2 lands and a 0/1 phoenix after bringing me down to 3 life.
Overall, I think the discard package is incredibly powerful against UW. In fact, I think it was the easiest match up. Aggro decks care little for discard, so that's something to think about. Dovin, Hand of Control is stupid good. He drastically reduces the actions any given opponent can make per turn, indirectly making all our discard much stronger and also does a decent job protecting our life total from manlands or stray threats that slip through the net until we draw an answer for them.
I do think you want some Tasigurs. I don't have a list yet I'm satisfied enough with to post but from my experience you just need him as a blocker, and you're already shredding their hand so might as well take the removal. Getting Tasigur Pathed to ramp into Nic is also not bad at all
Between the constant hand shredding and removals and Lily of the veil, there usually isnt much of a board before their hand gets emptied out. I do admit bloodghasts and amalgams could be a huge problem, but that MU is crap with or without banana boi anyways. Phoenix is not an issue when you're tearing their hand apart since they can't chain 3 spells under that kind of attack. I see the value in a cheap 4/5, but if I'm not playing thought scours then the value proposition drops.
How have you guys found Nicol Bolas? To me its - is very weak, but its + is very strong in an already even game.
That said i prefer Kalitas and Tasigur for the cloak over planeswalkers right now so i need to be convinced NB is worth playing
Nicol Bolas shreds opponents if your shell is heavy discard, and that's where he shines most. That -3 is basically "in a pinch" mode, where there's something already on the board that u just dont have resources to deal with, like maybe a teferi or JTMS. That would mean a long ways to the ultimate, but if your opponent doesn't deal with NB the next turn then their hand+board will be the same size forever, and you're drawing 2 every turn.
Kalitas is terrible against too many decks that it outweighs the decks he is fantastic against. He's quite firmly sideboard material, and honestly I'm not even sure if he's good against the creature aggro that you see today - nix, humans, spirits and light up the stage burn is going to be quite pleased that your plan is to tap out turn 4 for a 3/4 lifelink. Kalitas might not even be fast enough to save you from dredge, thanks to creeping chill.
Tasigur is actually cool. but I thought, since I'm stacking planeswalkers, why not go all the way and render the opponent's spot removal practically worthless outside of killing my 2/1 snappy bois which already gave me value?
That sounds great in theory, please let me know how your games go.
My experience with bitterblossom is I have to board it out most of the time. Nobody is playing jund or grixis control. It's only good against UW out of the current meta. Against aggro (spirits, humans, phoenix, dredge) and tron, it's basically a dead draw. And these 5 decks alone form a large % of your meta. If you're seeing plenty of jund and grixis in your locale then by all means, blossom away.
Secure the wastes produces the same effect as raise at 3 cmc, or turn 3. The only time it becomes an upside is when you are past turn 4 and technically should have combo'ed already. Raise the alarm as I mentioned works with legion's Landing to ramp you 1 turn ahead. Legion's landing also serves a secondary function in padding your life total against the ubiquitous aggro in modern, and it if flips, then it does even more work than secure the wastes in the late game.
Raise costing 2 is also ideal for another reason. On turn 3, the turn before you expect to combo, you can spend 1 mana on a discard spell to strip any spot removal or countermagic, then hold up 2 for the Raise and check the opponent.
I havent gotten round to this. Been doing other experiments with WAR cards in my other decks eg. the new bolas in my grixis control and saheeli in my creativity deck.
Uh, did you try it yet? I'm kinda keen to know if it does as good as it sounds in theory.
There are a few 2 cmc, produce 2 token cards, but Raise is the only one that's instant speed.
Legion's landing is OK in your jeskai deck the same way Serum Visions would be OK in your jeskai deck. It's one mana, best played on turn 1, and sets you up for an awesome turn 2 and 3.
yea im all about the alt arts, which is why I'm using prerelease emmy and vault iona, and FNM paths and pushes. I want a foil AA Saheeli Sublime, but she actually falls into the category of "you can't buy this even if you got the cash". Literally can't be found in my locale.
Not discouraging you, but I think an interesting data point you may wish to consider is Mythic Championship contenders Luis and Petr played UW control and they both had 2 copies of Teferi, and 3 copies of JTMS. Their curve and land count is not unlike ours, so I think this could be relevant.
Great minds think alike! I did consider the d-lord kolaghan for some time. Thing is,I'm put off by any target that can be solved with a spot removal. Still, 6 hasty damage in the air is not nothing, and I like that if there's a teferi on the board u can probably kill him in 1 swing. Perhaps the biggest upside is unlike Iona, you could actually hardcast her a lot of the time.
I wonder if I can get a foil kolaghan easily..
I actually think the RPTQ emrakul looks cooler
STOP TENPTING ME
Yessss this is it, this is pretty much the NBDG experience. When the starting hand + early draws is 3 discard spells or 2 discard 1 removal and lily it's just horrendous. NBDG basically lives off that start and seals the game.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
1 Steam Vents
1 Sunken Hollow
2 Dragonskull Summit
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Graven Cairns
1 Creeping Tarpit
2 Swamp
1 Island
1 Mountain
1 Desolate Lighthouse
4 Opt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
3 Countersquall
2 Kolaghan's Command
Sorceries (11)
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
2 Rise // Fall
1 Dreadbore
Creatures (5)
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Jace, Vryn's Prodigy
Walkers (5)
2 Nicol Bolas, Dragon-God
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Engineered Explosives
Board (15)
1 Alpine Moon
2 Anger of the Gods
2 Dispel
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Spell Snare
1 Dovin, Hand of Control
1 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Ceremonious Rejection
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
Match 1 UW Control (win)
G1 I begin to appreciate just how powerful discard is against blue based control. On the play, I strip a logic knot, then thoughtseize a cryptic command and inquisition a D sphere, leaving behind lands and Elspeth. Lily OTV comes down unhindered and starts ticking up. When Bolas hits the board, opp scoops.
OUT: 2 Terminates, 1 Engineered, 1 Lily last hope. IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Dovin, 1 Spell Snare
G2 I draw less of the discard half but I have squall and sideboarded dispels in my hand. I make the first non-cantrip play of the game somewhere on turn 5 or 6, and I see 2 Clique, 1 Teferi, 2 Cryptics and 1 Dispel. That's a pretty stacked hand. I take the dispel so my squall can do work, but I have 2 clique I need to worry about. Eventually I snap opt and start beating in. His teferi comes down after he cliques away my squall, and he sees my NBDG, squall (bottomed), dispel, 2 snaps. With the +1 on the stack I flash in the 2 snaps in my hand so I have 6 power on the board. I draw a Brutality off the top, which turns out to be pretty brutal since he was counting on his logic knot and 3 mana up to stop my NBDG. I strip the knot away and his 2 cryptic commands sit stranded in the hand while NBDG comes down and removes Teferi with the -3. The rest of the game is downhill from there - 2 snaps continue beating, and NBDG eats a D sphere but the damage is done. I eventually finish the game with snap beats.
Match 2 Burn (win)
G1 I lose the die roll AND draw the thoughtseizes but not the brutalities, which is NOT good. Light Up the Stage is terrific against discard, rendering my topdecked discard spells and LOTV useless while i stare at my doom in the exile zone across the table.
OUT: 2 Thoughtseize, 1 JTMS, 1 Lily last hope. IN: 2 Dispel, 1 Spell Snare, 1 Dovin Hand of control
G2 goes a lot smoother. I push the T1 swifty, strip a couple of burn spells, then land Dovin, Hand of Control while his hand is stacked with 2 mana burn, which is now 3 mana to cast. With the burn slowed down I have more draw steps and steadily build my mana and stabilize. Between snaps, squalls and brutality damage I am able to close the game.
G3 is pretty tight but I manage to stabilize at 3 life, holding off any attempts to overload my counterspells with Dovin, while snaps, squalls and dispels keep me alive. A couple of fatal pushes also make timely appearances. But what probably pushed the scales in my favor was brutality snap brutality.
Match 3 Hollow One (win)
G1 is a bit lucky - oppo mulls to 5. That he still manages to push me to 2 life is testament to the deck. There's not much can be done about turn 1 hollow one except to pray to draw the terminates or bores, which I eventually do else it might have been a lot worse.
G2 all I get is 2 turns. I lay tar pit turn 1, play JVP turn 2, and die to his t1 Hollow, T2 phoenix attack for 6, into t3 angler+bushwhacker attack for 16. Haha ok.
G3 my control deck does what it's supposed to - I strip the looting spells, push the small threats, terminate a big one. Lily the last hope arrives, makes a phoenix a 0/2 for a couple of turns. Eventually I draw and play NBDG, and I start accumulating card advantage while Lily keeps the bird small. His resources depleted by discard, removals, counterspells and bolas, oppo scoops with an empty hand against my nearly full grip and a board of 2 lands and a 0/1 phoenix after bringing me down to 3 life.
Overall, I think the discard package is incredibly powerful against UW. In fact, I think it was the easiest match up. Aggro decks care little for discard, so that's something to think about. Dovin, Hand of Control is stupid good. He drastically reduces the actions any given opponent can make per turn, indirectly making all our discard much stronger and also does a decent job protecting our life total from manlands or stray threats that slip through the net until we draw an answer for them.
Between the constant hand shredding and removals and Lily of the veil, there usually isnt much of a board before their hand gets emptied out. I do admit bloodghasts and amalgams could be a huge problem, but that MU is crap with or without banana boi anyways. Phoenix is not an issue when you're tearing their hand apart since they can't chain 3 spells under that kind of attack. I see the value in a cheap 4/5, but if I'm not playing thought scours then the value proposition drops.
Nicol Bolas shreds opponents if your shell is heavy discard, and that's where he shines most. That -3 is basically "in a pinch" mode, where there's something already on the board that u just dont have resources to deal with, like maybe a teferi or JTMS. That would mean a long ways to the ultimate, but if your opponent doesn't deal with NB the next turn then their hand+board will be the same size forever, and you're drawing 2 every turn.
Kalitas is terrible against too many decks that it outweighs the decks he is fantastic against. He's quite firmly sideboard material, and honestly I'm not even sure if he's good against the creature aggro that you see today - nix, humans, spirits and light up the stage burn is going to be quite pleased that your plan is to tap out turn 4 for a 3/4 lifelink. Kalitas might not even be fast enough to save you from dredge, thanks to creeping chill.
Tasigur is actually cool. but I thought, since I'm stacking planeswalkers, why not go all the way and render the opponent's spot removal practically worthless outside of killing my 2/1 snappy bois which already gave me value?