So against control, I'm more worried it catches Path to Exile than a wrath effect. Gideon Jura can at least play board control while he's twiddling his thumbs. Against Tron, Karn and Ugin will still exile it.
True... but is the die with bolt argument. The only 1 mana removal who can beat him is path. I like the card, but maybe you are correct in your apreciation, i think he deserves more testing, but im sure you know a lot more than me about Jeskai control, so glad to hear your opinions!
I have been playing Jeskai Nahiri for months and here are a few thoughts about it (my list here)
I feel that Jeskai is not the best control shell in modern anymore.
I also play UW (classical and As Foretold version) with better results. Being 2 colors only allows powerfull mana denial strategies (Spreading seas / GC).
And Bolt isn't as powerfull as it used to be (as a removal spell).
But I still love Nahiri, for her ability to close games quickly, and I think As Foretold may improve the AV build.
T3 As Foretold + AV / Restore Balance, T4 Nahiri + Bolt / Path on your turn + Spell Pierce / Spell Snare on opponent turn... that seems super strong.
And a late As Foretold draw isn't a big issue thanks to Nahiri's +2.
Any thoughts about that ?
Concerning Gideon, I was extremely enthouisast at first, but very disappointed after testing (in a UW control shell). Every time I had it in hand, I wished I had something else. His +1 is only good versus big creatures deck, DSJ for instance. It forces the opponent to overplay, allowing you to gain CA with a wrath. His "ult" is totally overrated, even against Combo.
I think that Jeskai Nahiri is definitively not a good shell for him. You don't need him as a wincon, and you don't want your opponent to overplay since most of our answers are 1-1. There are many better moves for a T3 than a Gideon in a Jeskai Nahiri shell.
I dont play him in Jeskai Nahiri, i use a more traditional Jeskai control build. Totally agree with your statement, he is not good in a Jeskai Nahiri. I test him and was useless, he dont contribute to our game plan. In Jeskai Control he give me the opportuniti to make better my burn gameplan against our bad MU, and is a good cards in the others, helping Verdict, Electrlolyze, Bolt, etc, to be more effective.
IMO the best build for Gideon is UW Midrange, 4 Gideons of Trials, 2 Big Gideons or 1 Big Gideon 1 Sun Titan. Gideon is great with more Gideons, Titan, Wall, Resto, etc.
But guys... this are my test... im an average player, if you test and have others results great!!! share them. Im only talk about this because i was testing him, but you know more than I about the archetype.
Against control deck he is not bad 4/4 indestructible and ignore wraths. Against tron is a beater 4/4 indestructible in turn 3, its better than a lot of our cards and if you go for the burn plan he can help you with clique and snapy, and can shut down wurmcoil, so you can remove path in game 2. He dont shine in any MU, but is very good in a lot.
I dont play the Nahiri build now. More clasic Jeskai builds 4 Guideon of Trials 1 Big Gideon.
Maybe he is cute... but worth the test. I love hear more opinions and test.
I think Gideon ot Trials is a bit overrated. He protects himself from only 1 creature, and as a wincon he only beats for 4, his emblem is meh according to me, if you're ahead it's win more, if behind then they just nug the Gideon first before killing you. I like Nahiri alot more because she's gives you card filtering and an awesome endgame, Gideon's endgame is beat you for 4 and maybe colonnade.
But that's just my opinion, please try him out and let us know what you find!
Well... a planeswalker who protect himself from only one creature... its amazing for me... he cost 3 mana. In a midrange build, your creature can ignore blocker damage. A 4/4 indestructible beater for 3 mana in white is very good IMO. About the emblem...has been great for me in a lot of fair MU (burn, infect, jund, etc), and Ok in te rest. Pact interactions are overrated, but i play 1 pact of negation and was great in a lot of games.
I was testing him in DaT build too, because he run great in midrange list.
Maybe im wrong.... but i buy my playset of GoT for 20 each one.
What exactly is Gideon of the Trials used for? Where does he shine? I'm a big fan of Gideon Jura and I'm just wondering where we want to run the new one instead. Is it a meta call? I'm new to U/W so I'm just trying to figure it all out, haha.
Im testing a UW list with 4 Guideon of Trials and 1-2 Gideon Jura. No AF, no AV.
IMO Gideon of the Trials is a great card against a lot of decks. For example:
Against Burn: He is exactly like won life, they need remove him using burn spells and he can stop his creature damage (honorable mention to eidolon damage)
Against Jund: Can stop a tarmo, and defeat a liliana with his 4/4 body.
Against Combo: Well... the most interesting point... some people say Gideon is not good against combo because he dont stop totally the combo decks with his ult... maybe his emblem help me against some combos or help me to won some turns... but the real important thing against combo is that he is a 4/4 indestructible in turn 3. Its a ******* clock, he help you in a lot of matchs and he is never useless IMO. In my list i play wall, resto, cliques and some snapys... i can try race combo decks with my creatures and disrupt his gamplan with my counters and sideboard.
Against Control: grixis have bad times against him with some lists, i dont play mirror yet.
Against Ramp or Tron: We sucks in this MU... Gideon is a 4/4 in turn 3. Same thoughts than combo MU...
I think Gideon give us the possibility to go more midrange, with more creatures (wall, resto AND sun titan... IMO like a 5fth Gideon of trials). My list is similar to Watanabe list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/317375#online) with a lot of changes for metagame adaptation (not playing 4 snares, kitchen, ojutais or remands)
1)Wall is a great card and an excelent turn 2 with AV and Gideon... im totally agree with you, if this is your start, you have a great game in your hands,
2)Totally agree with 2 negates in MB
3)I play a singleton Pact of negation and the a pact protecting gideon win me a lot of games
4)I totally undestrand your spell snare gameplan. Its all or none. I´m not playing none in my list -1 Elspeth - Verdict -4 Serum +some Blessed/condemn/ prophyry nodes, and im using Detention Sphere, restoration angel and Sun titan (like another gideon in late game). What are your opinions about snare wit your test) Restoration is a nice way to reset Gideon in some games and have a great sinergy with walls (and add more threats against a lot of reactive decks, I hate tron).
5)Im really not pleased with land disruption strategy.... 4 spreading seas and dont do soooooo much for the 4 spots... totally agree with you
6)3 verdicts its OK IMO
7)How you feel your Queller and clique plan, maybe gesit?
8)I LOVE NEW GIDEON
Sorry for my english. I love your list, we think very simillar in some points and i want test 4 snare plan but im trying other strategies now...
Yeah, Gideon's so bad. Freezing a valakut, the molten pinnacle, the rack, or a death's shadow while also being a indestructible 4/4 beater with an emblem that says you must kill me before you can continue to play magic is super bad.
I concede that the new gideon doesn't provide CA the same way say Gideon, Ally of Zendikar does in that it doesn't make a 2/2 token, but it's still phenomenal. If loxodon smiter was good enough as a 4/4 beater, then I don't see why this gideon isn't runnable as it's pretty much the same body with a ton more flexible and relevant text.
THIS. I totally agree with you @SpiderSpace
I was teststing Gideon in UW (I play mostly UW/ UWR and DaT) and after some test i think that i want him in DaT and UW. We test only with Burn and Jund, and he was allways the key card. When i kill Liliana with my 4/4 indestructible guy, and later punch him with 4 damage each turn, when i lock my burn oponent with gideon (who gives me 4 or 5 ¨extra lifes¨, i was living the dream.
My test wasnt in DaT list (not yet). I play mostly Mono white list with 2 or 3 Kytheons, i love see this gideon be a 4/4 indestructible beater, a kind of worship and a pseudo removal. He can be our new swiss knife.
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
Hi JohnSwift!
Welcome to Jeskai
IMO Colonnade is more important, wait to modern master, and if WOC dont reprint him, buy it.
This deck is a more draw and go version, but is great. Dont run Ancestral or nahiri, you can complete the deckilst faster, and then wait for nahiri and ancestral.
I'm also just starting in Modern and looking for a decklist without the Nihiri package and I like this list.
One question though; is it really worth running 3 colours just for a couple of Lightning Bolt and Electrolyze?
If you want play draw and go you can take black for esper charm and fatal push or red for bolt, electrolyze, helix and crumble.
UW without this colors is a nice deck, but another style of control (finks, wall of omens, resto, etc. You cant play draw and go without the third color, electrolyze/bolt and esper charm are really important IMO.
I'm an aspiring modern player and have been accumulating cards for UWR control for a while. I've got about half of the deck right now, especially the cheaper spells like Serum Visions, Lightning helix, Mana Leak, Remand, Timely Reinforcements, Electrolyze, Lightning Bolt, Anger of the Gods, etc. I also have a scalding tarn, a playset of flooded strand (though one of them is damaged to the point that it may not be tournament legal), 5 shocks and one of each of the on-color check lands.
Few questions:
Which is more important: Nahiri or Colonnade? I'm missing both the Nahiri package and the Celestial Colonnades and I'm wondering which to get first if I see trade opportunity/get funds. I do have one copy of Nahiri already.
For budget concerns, I'm planning to forego the Ancestral Visions entirely. I do have Snapcaster Mages and a Cryptic, though. Is it unreasonable to run Think Twice? They're cheap and I already own two, but I don't know whether I need the extra card draw. I'm also looking at running Goblin Darkdwellers as a finisher/card advantage generator in my first budget-ish draft if my LGS has a modern event.
Hi JohnSwift!
Welcome to Jeskai
IMO Colonnade is more important, wait to modern master, and if WOC dont reprint him, buy it.
This deck is a more draw and go version, but is great. Dont run Ancestral or nahiri, you can complete the deckilst faster, and then wait for nahiri and ancestral.
Well... maybe im really wrong, but i dont think fatal push or expertise are sooooo strong. First of all, fatal push cant kill some important threats, for example, you cant kill Kiki, Baneslayer, Drowner, Smasher, Wurm, Worldbreaker, Primeval Titan, etc. I prefer path in a LOT of ways. First of all, you can kill ANYTHING, and plus that... you can EXILE. Path is over this anytime. Bolt is not only a removal, the card can win the game, and thats is really important for tempo decks.
Second, yahenni's expertise, its a conditional wrath for four mana, if you are playing against DaT, Merfolk, Affinity, Delver, Temur, etc, you cant play this sorcery in turn 4 in a safe way (cheap counters or thalias), but if you do it, you can cast another card in your hand (if you have a card, and if the card can be cast, you dont want cast another removal for example, or a counter) ok that sound good... but no sooo good. Anger kill the same creatures one turn earlier, AND exile them (for free XD) you dont need another card to kill that fink, or stop dredge (sideboard slots!!!)
This is only my opinion (im a control player generally)
Furthermore, making room for Boom//Bust, Simian Spirit Guide and Magus of the Moon forces you to cut out cards like Blade Splicer - in which case.. why play with Flickerwisp and Restoration at all? (Aside from the occasional Flickering of their land at EOT or flickering your land in response to Boom, but still haha).
Just like to say for the newer people here, Flickerwisps main role is NOT just to flicker Blade Splicer, its the corner stone for the deck, taking away their blockers, keeping removal at bay, destroying tokens, resetting counters on a permanent, getting something/anything exiled for a turn is fantastic, lets not forget how you can just remove ANY permanent, its great so don't get locked into thinking its just there to try to get value from a splicer.
I know I harp on about it too but Splicer it's actually not bad for the current meta right now, however I still think there's better options if you aren't monowhite.
THIS MEN SPEAK WITH THE TRUE! If you only play Flickerwisp for a 3/3 extra golem or occasional flickering of their land to EOT... then you are undervalue the card power. Flickerwisp its an incredibly swiss knife, he can give you time flickering an atacker, give you time flickering a land, remove some awfull permanents (hello ensnaring bridge my old friend...), prevent an Emrakul atack (poor nahiri), remove a blocker, put a clock (3 damage with evasion is GREAT), save one of your important cards, etc etc etc. The card is amazing, a key part in any mono W build an a strong weapon for other builds.
True... but is the die with bolt argument. The only 1 mana removal who can beat him is path. I like the card, but maybe you are correct in your apreciation, i think he deserves more testing, but im sure you know a lot more than me about Jeskai control, so glad to hear your opinions!
[/quote]
I dont play him in Jeskai Nahiri, i use a more traditional Jeskai control build. Totally agree with your statement, he is not good in a Jeskai Nahiri. I test him and was useless, he dont contribute to our game plan. In Jeskai Control he give me the opportuniti to make better my burn gameplan against our bad MU, and is a good cards in the others, helping Verdict, Electrlolyze, Bolt, etc, to be more effective.
IMO the best build for Gideon is UW Midrange, 4 Gideons of Trials, 2 Big Gideons or 1 Big Gideon 1 Sun Titan. Gideon is great with more Gideons, Titan, Wall, Resto, etc.
But guys... this are my test... im an average player, if you test and have others results great!!! share them. Im only talk about this because i was testing him, but you know more than I about the archetype.
Sorry for my english
I dont play the Nahiri build now. More clasic Jeskai builds 4 Guideon of Trials 1 Big Gideon.
Maybe he is cute... but worth the test. I love hear more opinions and test.
Sorry for my english
Well... a planeswalker who protect himself from only one creature... its amazing for me... he cost 3 mana. In a midrange build, your creature can ignore blocker damage. A 4/4 indestructible beater for 3 mana in white is very good IMO. About the emblem...has been great for me in a lot of fair MU (burn, infect, jund, etc), and Ok in te rest. Pact interactions are overrated, but i play 1 pact of negation and was great in a lot of games.
I was testing him in DaT build too, because he run great in midrange list.
Maybe im wrong.... but i buy my playset of GoT for 20 each one.
Sorry for my english
Im testing him in UW midrange list... but im tempted to add red...
Yes... i think he is an amazing card for control decks...
Im testing a UW list with 4 Guideon of Trials and 1-2 Gideon Jura. No AF, no AV.
IMO Gideon of the Trials is a great card against a lot of decks. For example:
Against Burn: He is exactly like won life, they need remove him using burn spells and he can stop his creature damage (honorable mention to eidolon damage)
Against Jund: Can stop a tarmo, and defeat a liliana with his 4/4 body.
Against Combo: Well... the most interesting point... some people say Gideon is not good against combo because he dont stop totally the combo decks with his ult... maybe his emblem help me against some combos or help me to won some turns... but the real important thing against combo is that he is a 4/4 indestructible in turn 3. Its a ******* clock, he help you in a lot of matchs and he is never useless IMO. In my list i play wall, resto, cliques and some snapys... i can try race combo decks with my creatures and disrupt his gamplan with my counters and sideboard.
Against Control: grixis have bad times against him with some lists, i dont play mirror yet.
Against Ramp or Tron: We sucks in this MU... Gideon is a 4/4 in turn 3. Same thoughts than combo MU...
I think Gideon give us the possibility to go more midrange, with more creatures (wall, resto AND sun titan... IMO like a 5fth Gideon of trials). My list is similar to Watanabe list (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/317375#online) with a lot of changes for metagame adaptation (not playing 4 snares, kitchen, ojutais or remands)
Sorry for my english
IMO after testing a very similar list:
1)Wall is a great card and an excelent turn 2 with AV and Gideon... im totally agree with you, if this is your start, you have a great game in your hands,
2)Totally agree with 2 negates in MB
3)I play a singleton Pact of negation and the a pact protecting gideon win me a lot of games
4)I totally undestrand your spell snare gameplan. Its all or none. I´m not playing none in my list -1 Elspeth - Verdict -4 Serum +some Blessed/condemn/ prophyry nodes, and im using Detention Sphere, restoration angel and Sun titan (like another gideon in late game). What are your opinions about snare wit your test) Restoration is a nice way to reset Gideon in some games and have a great sinergy with walls (and add more threats against a lot of reactive decks, I hate tron).
5)Im really not pleased with land disruption strategy.... 4 spreading seas and dont do soooooo much for the 4 spots... totally agree with you
6)3 verdicts its OK IMO
7)How you feel your Queller and clique plan, maybe gesit?
8)I LOVE NEW GIDEON
Sorry for my english. I love your list, we think very simillar in some points and i want test 4 snare plan but im trying other strategies now...
THIS. I totally agree with you @SpiderSpace
I was teststing Gideon in UW (I play mostly UW/ UWR and DaT) and after some test i think that i want him in DaT and UW. We test only with Burn and Jund, and he was allways the key card. When i kill Liliana with my 4/4 indestructible guy, and later punch him with 4 damage each turn, when i lock my burn oponent with gideon (who gives me 4 or 5 ¨extra lifes¨, i was living the dream.
My test wasnt in DaT list (not yet). I play mostly Mono white list with 2 or 3 Kytheons, i love see this gideon be a 4/4 indestructible beater, a kind of worship and a pseudo removal. He can be our new swiss knife.
Sorry for my english
He post in this forum a lot of times, allways in mono w lists without eldrazi, i love his decks.
This time he change 1 kytheon for 1 dryad.
If you want play draw and go you can take black for esper charm and fatal push or red for bolt, electrolyze, helix and crumble.
UW without this colors is a nice deck, but another style of control (finks, wall of omens, resto, etc. You cant play draw and go without the third color, electrolyze/bolt and esper charm are really important IMO.
Hi JohnSwift!
Welcome to Jeskai
IMO Colonnade is more important, wait to modern master, and if WOC dont reprint him, buy it.
I recomend you start with this list or something similar: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/484464#online
This deck is a more draw and go version, but is great. Dont run Ancestral or nahiri, you can complete the deckilst faster, and then wait for nahiri and ancestral.
Second, yahenni's expertise, its a conditional wrath for four mana, if you are playing against DaT, Merfolk, Affinity, Delver, Temur, etc, you cant play this sorcery in turn 4 in a safe way (cheap counters or thalias), but if you do it, you can cast another card in your hand (if you have a card, and if the card can be cast, you dont want cast another removal for example, or a counter) ok that sound good... but no sooo good. Anger kill the same creatures one turn earlier, AND exile them (for free XD) you dont need another card to kill that fink, or stop dredge (sideboard slots!!!)
This is only my opinion (im a control player generally)
Sorry for my english!
THIS MEN SPEAK WITH THE TRUE! If you only play Flickerwisp for a 3/3 extra golem or occasional flickering of their land to EOT... then you are undervalue the card power. Flickerwisp its an incredibly swiss knife, he can give you time flickering an atacker, give you time flickering a land, remove some awfull permanents (hello ensnaring bridge my old friend...), prevent an Emrakul atack (poor nahiri), remove a blocker, put a clock (3 damage with evasion is GREAT), save one of your important cards, etc etc etc. The card is amazing, a key part in any mono W build an a strong weapon for other builds.
Sorry for my english.
Really interesting... https://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/scg-modern-open-columbus-2016-11-13#online