I wouldn't call it wacky but my Brago list was built more around generating mana by blinking mana rocks to untap them, drawing cards by blinking ETB cantrip permanents (traveller's cloak, unquestioned authority, tsabo's web, etc), and PLANESWALKERS! Drawing 2 cards per turn with baby jace, tutoring out multiple swords with tezz, taking over with Karn/Ugin. Good times.
Macabre hit the nail on the head. Riku isn't played as much because he's an unfortunate combination of fragile, and super-powerful if allowed to live. And you kinda need him to survive because all of the big plays you can make with him carry a large mana cost.
Also, Riku's big plays are typically huge and game-winning. So by casting him, you're kinda saying "hey here's a vulnerable 2 toughness guy that's really easy to kill, and if you don't kill him I'll take over and win"
Guess what usually happens?
When he was printed I had a lot of fun theory-crafting around him, but like most EDH combo decks, it's more fun to build than to actually play.
Riku copies ghostly flicker, flickering 4 creatures (with ETB abilities?). Then copies all 4 creatures as they enter.
Infinite loop with 2 regrowth effects and any spell (riku copies regrowth returning the other regrowth and the spell). Obviously infinite with time walks, but "merely" double-casting a powerful spell every single turn usually wins games.
Heck, merely double-casting time walks usually wins games, even without recursion.
Use cards like ponder to help you curve out early game by finding ramp spells. Late game, copying them is comparable to resolving dig through time to find your bombs.
Copy manamorphose, draw 2 cards and get all your mana back.
Copy harrow, sac 1 land to get 4 new ones, and they come in untapped to pay back 4/5ths of the mana you spent on this.
Decks like this sometimes pop up in multiplayer EDH, but they don't typically survive the test of time. Playing them gets you picked on, which isn't fun for you, but it also isn't fun for your opponents because you're not giving them much choice. If they don't kill riku, he kills the game.
Sylvan library, hands down. It's not just a filter like top/guile, it's a card draw engine. This is EDH...you have 40 starting life. Go ahead and pay 12, 16, heck...28 life. It's pretty easy to win despite a low life total when your 2-drop drew 7 extra cards.
And guile nowhere near as good as top...just throwing that out there.
Wort the Raidmother allows you to conspire all of those spells.
This was my first thought. Wort herself is 3 permanents to feed Warp, and she double-casts it...plus you're in the colors of deranged hermit and avenger of zendikar and whatnot to get a ton of mileage out of warp.
Although...it would be nice have blue in the deck to EoT evacuation, sunder, or cyclonic rift pre-warp? Plus blue has mystical tutor and personal tutor. Maybe Riku?
I'd love to see a decent boros token-maker. It'd be very on-theme, and there are some good synergy cards in the colors. Could be a legendary marriage of cloudgoat ranger + siege-gang commander, or a prossh-templated creature version of rise of the hobgoblins. Or Hero of bladehold+oxid ridge smashed together?
I wouldn't even care, as long as it could A) make a lot of tokens and B) be costed for a decent power level. I'd happily jam cards like purphoros and cathar's crusade into that deck.
Red and blue have quite a few ways to cheat in expensive artifacts (welder, transmuter, daretti, etc).
Also, Scrap mastery! Doesn't directly solve the problem but it'll instantly rebuild your wrecked board after the fact. And of course, in UR...you have a ton of looting effects and intuition and fof and whatnot to make your board even better than before.
Well I definitely ignored the actual question to argue a minor point. In retrospect I tend to do that a lot...I should probably be cutting back on it lol.
To answer, I think at first I'd try to just play a deck with more LD-resistance. Something with crucible/loam maybe. I mean plan A would be try to adapt, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to say after a few games "you know, magic was more fun when I didn't have to build my decks to beat this. Mind playing something else?"
Cast Worldpurge with enough mana floating, and you just wasted a lot of mana. Upheaval, however...
Anyway, point is, a good chunk of the banlist are indeed cards that LOOK like a lot of fun, the kind of cards EDH is designed for - but really lead to miserable states. Worldfire is sadly one of those. The idea is awesome. The rest? Not so much.
This. Exactly.
I suggest avoiding the portrayal of upheaval + co as combo pieces. There are a lot of cards out there capable of winning a game with 9+ mana that aren't in need of a ban. I think upheaval and whatnot make the list because they're a little more insidious than that. It doesn't have to be your gameplan to set up a win with upheaval, it just sorta happens, whether you meant it to happen or not. People will play upheaval with the best of intentions because it's awesome and they like awesome cards. But without really trying to, upheaval just wins games, and does so in a way that makes everything leading up to it completely irrelevant.
A bunch of ramping and durdling will go on, someone will start getting too strong, and presto, a reset button will appear. And it's no ordinary reset button, it undoes virtually everything...planeswalkers, land counts, hand size advantages, etc. And by the way, one person gets a massive - possibly game-winning - head-start on the rebuild. It's a very unsatisfying turn of events, especially if you were the guy who spent so much time and energy deftly maneuvering into a strong position. Upheaval says: All that work? Doesn't matter. It was never going to matter. This is an upheaval game. It's not about luck, skill, or politics. It's about being the one who who cast this silly card.
But the point I want to emphasize is that it's not just a matter of being breakable. A large number of cards are breakable, but are fine if used with good intentions. Upheavel isn't like that - it kinda breaks itself. But that isn't going to be obvious until you've played a few rounds with it.
um, no I acknowledged your points (before you even made them lol and again afterwards) and tried to explain why that was already factored into my conclusions. But whatever, you clearly want an argument and not a discussion so this will be my last response to you.
I don't usually mind land destruction, but I disagree with this part:
as long as it is legal strategy, it is a player’s choice and responsibility to react to a shifting meta.
I mean...if you were a star professional hockey player who got invited to play pond-hockey with a bunch of casuals, would you play at 100% of your ability and dominate the poor amateurs? When they complain that they aren't even getting to touch the puck, you tell them it's their responsibility to adapt, learn, and get better?
EDH isn't a professional sport, it's casual pond hockey with friends. Be a good sport and if you're way better than them, tone it down a little.
Uh, wasn't it you that suggested monoblack decks would want scour because of its weakness to enchantments/artifacts??
...Whatever, I'm not looking to get into a nitpick war here. If you're going to fixate on minor details of a randomly chosen example and completely ignore the central point that the example was intended to demonstrate, then this discussion is going to go nowhere.
If you're trying to get me to acknowledge that Scour is a good card for some decks, that's not gonna happen because I honestly don't think that's true. I understand the appeal of this card, I just think that most deck-builders, if they really put in the time and effort to identify weak points and critically evaluate their options, they'll find better ways of addressing them than an over-costed catch-all. And that includes decks with limited color-options. I think that playing scour is lazy deck-building, and accepting a bad solution to a problem that probably has a better one.
Lol do you honestly believe this? That ramping to scour is an efficient gameplan??
Okay, follow me here: IF you are out of the colors necessary to handle certain threats, and you happen to have a Scour from Existence in your hand, with the ability to ramp to it quickly, to deal with the problem card, then that is NOT a bad play. Sometimes, getting rid of that one card will cause you to steal the game away (it happens ALL the TIME).
We're talking about whether or not it's a good choice to run scour in a deck... You could conjure up scenarios to make any number of overcosted bad cards look good, provided they're in your hand, you have the mana, and the board is right for them.
And it's worth pointing out that in your scenario....turn 3 karn is still miles better lol.
If you aren't in colors that can handle certain threats, and need an extra piece of removal, and can RAMP efficiently, then Scour is a decent addition.
I've bolded this part because I think this is the crux of the flaw in your logic. "Deck can ramp well" doesn't equate "don't care about casting costs". Rather, if your deck is properly tuned it should imply "more card draw". Casting dismember on a threat AND casting promise of power to refill your hand is getting a LOT more done with less mana than just answering one threat. I mean, I'm sure you're going to nitpick the life loss and the lack of exile in that example or whatever...but the point is you get X mana to spend each turn, and you should be aspiring to accomplish as much as possible with that X, even when it's a big X.
I've stated SEVERAL times already that the card is not good for all decks. As a matter of fact, many decks out there would NEVER even consider this card (and I completely understand why)... but there are certain decks where it can, and DOES have the potential to shine.
It's all relative.
There are certain decks that will use it, sure. I just disagree with the part about it shining. If you're in a situation where you need to pay 7 mana for a removal spell...that's not something you're ever going to be happy about.
It's not a matter of "decks that could make use of it inefficiently"
If you were being realistic, you'd acknowledge that the card is inherently inefficient.
I just have a certain understanding of how game mechanics are designed, and implemented in games like this.
You don't seem to see how the fact that since it's colorless, that fact alone changes things quite a bit, at how expensive Wizards can realistically make it, without upsetting the balance of cards already made, that do similar things, but not quite the same effect.
But you're focusing too much on comparison to past cards without recognizing where those cards fall on the power scale. Yes, there's a "worse" scour out there (utter end) that costs 4. That doesn't mean scour will be broken unless it costs 5+, because that 4-mana worse-scour isn't actually pushing the power limit. That's like saying "well craw wurm exists, so wurmcoil engine should cost at least 11 to maintain the balance". Screw that, I love wurmcoil at 6! Craw wurm is underpowered, we don't have to scale our creatures according to that.
Similarly, Utter end is a tad underpowered. Scour improves on it in some significant ways, but in my opinion, not enough to justify an increase in cost of more than 1 or so mana, and certainly not +3
Honestly, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here? I've acknowledged (long before you even showed up) that scour does something unique, especially for certain colors. Some archetypes have weaknesses and would love scour's *effect* (not necessarily scour itself, but an instant speed exile-anything? definitely)
I just think it costs too much to actually be a *good* way to fill a deck's weakness. We're past talking about what it offers, and we're now weighing cost vs benefit. Those decks would love that effect, but there's only so much you can justify paying for it before you cross the line from good card to bad card. And imho, that line is probably between 4-5 mana, depending on the format.
If I can ramp to 7 on turn 3, to get rid of a problem card, that hoses my game plan, doing so isn't a bad play, or inefficient... as long as your deck is built properly.
Lol do you honestly believe this? That ramping to scour is an efficient gameplan??
When I play Karn Liberated for 7, it mostly only hits 1 thing, then it gets taken out by someone else at the table. Playing Scour for 7, as an instant, isn't nearly as bad as you seem to think, if you are out of range of the colors necessary to handle said threat.
Sure, but Karn has a chance (however small you think it is, it's non-zero) of doing more than just 1 scour. And if he dies immediately, that implies he forced an opponent to do something in order to deal with him. Playing a karn that has no karn attached just because you want an instant is a clear step down. I don't think that's reasonably arguable.
Also, Riku's big plays are typically huge and game-winning. So by casting him, you're kinda saying "hey here's a vulnerable 2 toughness guy that's really easy to kill, and if you don't kill him I'll take over and win"
Guess what usually happens?
When he was printed I had a lot of fun theory-crafting around him, but like most EDH combo decks, it's more fun to build than to actually play.
Some examples of the big plays I'm referring to:
bribery an opponent. Riku copies bribery. Riku copies first bribed creature as it enters, then also copies second bribed creature. Also works with chord of calling, green sun's zenith, tooth and nail, natural order...
Riku copies ghostly flicker, flickering 4 creatures (with ETB abilities?). Then copies all 4 creatures as they enter.
Infinite loop with 2 regrowth effects and any spell (riku copies regrowth returning the other regrowth and the spell). Obviously infinite with time walks, but "merely" double-casting a powerful spell every single turn usually wins games.
Heck, merely double-casting time walks usually wins games, even without recursion.
Fetchland (like wooded foothills) getting dryad arbor. Riku copies dryad arbor.
Use cards like ponder to help you curve out early game by finding ramp spells. Late game, copying them is comparable to resolving dig through time to find your bombs.
Copy manamorphose, draw 2 cards and get all your mana back.
Copy harrow, sac 1 land to get 4 new ones, and they come in untapped to pay back 4/5ths of the mana you spent on this.
Doubling season and its brethren with like....almost anything. Deranged hermit, riku copies it. Doubling season puts an additional copy into play. Doubling season doubles the squirrel count of all 3 hermits -> 24 4/4 squirrel tokens. Also siege-gang commander, precursor golem, master of waves, or....
...Rite of replication! Riku-copied, of course. Targeting Craterhoof behemoth.
You can see why he tends to die a lot.
Decks like this sometimes pop up in multiplayer EDH, but they don't typically survive the test of time. Playing them gets you picked on, which isn't fun for you, but it also isn't fun for your opponents because you're not giving them much choice. If they don't kill riku, he kills the game.
And guile nowhere near as good as top...just throwing that out there.
Although...it would be nice have blue in the deck to EoT evacuation, sunder, or cyclonic rift pre-warp? Plus blue has mystical tutor and personal tutor. Maybe Riku?
I wouldn't even care, as long as it could A) make a lot of tokens and B) be costed for a decent power level. I'd happily jam cards like purphoros and cathar's crusade into that deck.
Also, Scrap mastery! Doesn't directly solve the problem but it'll instantly rebuild your wrecked board after the fact. And of course, in UR...you have a ton of looting effects and intuition and fof and whatnot to make your board even better than before.
To answer, I think at first I'd try to just play a deck with more LD-resistance. Something with crucible/loam maybe. I mean plan A would be try to adapt, but I also don't think it's unreasonable to say after a few games "you know, magic was more fun when I didn't have to build my decks to beat this. Mind playing something else?"
I suggest avoiding the portrayal of upheaval + co as combo pieces. There are a lot of cards out there capable of winning a game with 9+ mana that aren't in need of a ban. I think upheaval and whatnot make the list because they're a little more insidious than that. It doesn't have to be your gameplan to set up a win with upheaval, it just sorta happens, whether you meant it to happen or not. People will play upheaval with the best of intentions because it's awesome and they like awesome cards. But without really trying to, upheaval just wins games, and does so in a way that makes everything leading up to it completely irrelevant.
A bunch of ramping and durdling will go on, someone will start getting too strong, and presto, a reset button will appear. And it's no ordinary reset button, it undoes virtually everything...planeswalkers, land counts, hand size advantages, etc. And by the way, one person gets a massive - possibly game-winning - head-start on the rebuild. It's a very unsatisfying turn of events, especially if you were the guy who spent so much time and energy deftly maneuvering into a strong position. Upheaval says: All that work? Doesn't matter. It was never going to matter. This is an upheaval game. It's not about luck, skill, or politics. It's about being the one who who cast this silly card.
But the point I want to emphasize is that it's not just a matter of being breakable. A large number of cards are breakable, but are fine if used with good intentions. Upheavel isn't like that - it kinda breaks itself. But that isn't going to be obvious until you've played a few rounds with it.
I mean...if you were a star professional hockey player who got invited to play pond-hockey with a bunch of casuals, would you play at 100% of your ability and dominate the poor amateurs? When they complain that they aren't even getting to touch the puck, you tell them it's their responsibility to adapt, learn, and get better?
EDH isn't a professional sport, it's casual pond hockey with friends. Be a good sport and if you're way better than them, tone it down a little.
...Whatever, I'm not looking to get into a nitpick war here. If you're going to fixate on minor details of a randomly chosen example and completely ignore the central point that the example was intended to demonstrate, then this discussion is going to go nowhere.
If you're trying to get me to acknowledge that Scour is a good card for some decks, that's not gonna happen because I honestly don't think that's true. I understand the appeal of this card, I just think that most deck-builders, if they really put in the time and effort to identify weak points and critically evaluate their options, they'll find better ways of addressing them than an over-costed catch-all. And that includes decks with limited color-options. I think that playing scour is lazy deck-building, and accepting a bad solution to a problem that probably has a better one.
And it's worth pointing out that in your scenario....turn 3 karn is still miles better lol.
I've bolded this part because I think this is the crux of the flaw in your logic. "Deck can ramp well" doesn't equate "don't care about casting costs". Rather, if your deck is properly tuned it should imply "more card draw". Casting dismember on a threat AND casting promise of power to refill your hand is getting a LOT more done with less mana than just answering one threat. I mean, I'm sure you're going to nitpick the life loss and the lack of exile in that example or whatever...but the point is you get X mana to spend each turn, and you should be aspiring to accomplish as much as possible with that X, even when it's a big X.
There are certain decks that will use it, sure. I just disagree with the part about it shining. If you're in a situation where you need to pay 7 mana for a removal spell...that's not something you're ever going to be happy about.
Similarly, Utter end is a tad underpowered. Scour improves on it in some significant ways, but in my opinion, not enough to justify an increase in cost of more than 1 or so mana, and certainly not +3
Honestly, I'm not even sure what point you're trying to make here? I've acknowledged (long before you even showed up) that scour does something unique, especially for certain colors. Some archetypes have weaknesses and would love scour's *effect* (not necessarily scour itself, but an instant speed exile-anything? definitely)
I just think it costs too much to actually be a *good* way to fill a deck's weakness. We're past talking about what it offers, and we're now weighing cost vs benefit. Those decks would love that effect, but there's only so much you can justify paying for it before you cross the line from good card to bad card. And imho, that line is probably between 4-5 mana, depending on the format.
Lol do you honestly believe this? That ramping to scour is an efficient gameplan??
Sure, but Karn has a chance (however small you think it is, it's non-zero) of doing more than just 1 scour. And if he dies immediately, that implies he forced an opponent to do something in order to deal with him. Playing a karn that has no karn attached just because you want an instant is a clear step down. I don't think that's reasonably arguable.