This looks like the most durdly deck I've ever seen. How does this deck beat Jund/Burn/Infect Game 1? How does it beat Tron at all? It takes the backup plan of two decks (Nahiri is the backup plan for Jeskai, who really just want to Snap-Bolt you into oblivion, and Thopter/Sword is the backup plan for Tezzerator, who really just want to kill you with Tezz) and mashes them together to make... a deck with no main plan. You 5-0 'ing him, pre- and post-board, should be a sign that this deck isn't that good.
Your friend is a Jedi if he keeps winning with this.
I don't care at all about AV, but I am curious as to your experience going with no snaps. I cut him for seeming too win more or too expensive at bad times, in favor of a couple halos. What has your experience been? People give me crap for cutting them but all I can really do is shrug and say "I spend an inordinate amount of time playing this deck and honestly it's never came up where cutting snap has been a big deal but the halos in place of snaps have won countless games I would have otherwise lost"
I have never missed Snapcaster in Esper. IMO, Snapcaster (which I've tried in Azorious, Esper, and Jeskai) is at its best when the spell it flashbacks applies pressure to the opponents life total (good old Bolt-Bolt-Snap-Bolt) or hand (Esper Charm them into Snap/Esper Charm them, or Thoughtsieze/Snap-Thoughtsieze). Esper control, however, REALLY wants to be drawing four cards instead of making its opponent discard four cards. Azorious has no burn OR Snap-able hand disruption.
Snap-Path-Snap is usually a "Build-your-own-wrath," right down to the mana cost, only with three chances at disruption instead of none (in the case of Verdict). Snap-Rev is win-more unless the first Rev got countered. Snap-Negate is fine but has all the issues Negate does. Snap and Logic Knot never felt like they went together (countering stuff at the cost of removing further Snap targets). Snap-Cryptic is good, but more Cryptics are always good. I have found myself replacing Snap with more cards that defend my life total (Halo/Condemns/Smother/Unmaking) and counting on the TT/Esper Charm/Rev package to be enough card draw to defend my hand.
Lately, even that hasn't been enough, so I've been going more proactive with U/W Resto-based control. And I can't even run Snapcaster in that, because the only card I REALLY want to Snapcaster is Ancestral Vision, and the rules of the game don't allow that.
I decided to do some more tinkering with my UW list by putting in some more filtering. I love the deck and how it's built, but I've been losing a number of matches due to flooding out which is a problem. Since I don't have protection and people still leave in their removal and/or bring in more answers to my threats closing the game has been a little iffy. The main change is that I've cut some spells and lands for a set of serum visions to help me dig to what I need when I need it which is currently at -1 GQ, -1 TT, -1 cryptic, -1 glacial fortress, +4 serum visions. I don't like the idea, but it might be necessary because filtering is such a big deal and digging three deep has a major impact on how games play out. Not to mention it allows you to keep a lot more hands which is a nice bonus.
I'm going to an IQ this weekend where the meta is heavy on infect, various valakut decks, burn/8-whack, and the typical midrange decks of the format. I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a number of nahiri decks show up. I always expect some amount of tron decks so I'm keeping the crumble/bribery package in the side. The presence of infect and valakut is why I decided to keep the third halo in the side and went with a second needle. This particular meta is also another factor in my desire to try out serum visions.
So far the list feels like legacy miracles in that I always feel like I have what I need at all times or am very close to finding it. Unfortunately going down to only 2 think twice means that I also get the same feeling where I can sometimes be low on gas even though I'm drawing the right answers each turn. So far cutting a cryptic hasn't been bad since I main negates I'm not short on hard counters and the cut lands also haven't been a problem while helping out my issues with randomly flooding. I'd really like to fit in the third think twice somehow, but I'm not sure what to shuffle around and going 3 TT and 3 serum just sounds incorrect. I know this is almost entirely a UW conversation (which is the lack of discard for protection) and it doesn't really apply to esper, but I'm curious on everyone's thoughts regardless.
I'm curious why you're holding on to the TT's. Serum/AV/Snap-Serum/Rev in theory seems like enough card draw, and those two slots could be the fourth Cryptic and another threat, or the fourth Cryptic and another Halo, or two more two-mana counters (Remand?), or two Condemns, or even something like Vendillion Clique.
I do have a question though; what do you find yourself Snapcastering? Snap-TT seems meh. Snap-Cryptic is expensive. Snap-Negate seems good, but Snap-Logic Knot doesn't. Snap-Rev is obviously good, but that's win-more, no? I have been without the Snaps in Esper and U/W for awhile, so I'm wondering where its value lies for you.
G1 The deck performed as expected; he kept a 1-lander that went nowhere for 3-4 turns which bought us time
G2 I played scared around Glen Elendra Archmage, wasn't aggressive enough with Colonnades, and tried to jam an Elspeth at the worst possible time
G3 I drew nothing useful the entire game and died. Sucks to suck.
Followed that up with a loss to Kiln Fiend.deck because mulling to 5 to find Paths/Purges is no fun
Call out to everyone in the primer--I'd appreciate it if you could PM me your thoughts on the current structure of the primer--what's missing (structurally), and what do you think doesn't need to be there anymore? Any of it too dated, or unnecessary? (e.g. lists pre pod ban aside from historical ones?)
I'm getting ready to sit down and redo it in the next week or two, complete with a new layout for discussing matchups and sideboarding/flex slots, but I'd like community input as to what YOU guys want before I re-do it.
If you don't want to post publically, feel free to PM me thoughts or comments.
I'd love a detailed sideboard explanation for various metas. Like, "This is what we sideboard in an aggro meta," "This is what we sideboard when Jund/Azban/Junk is meta," "This is what we sideboard for Tron/Nahiri meta." A section that accentuates the potential flexibility of the deck.
As far as dredge goes, I side in more wrath effects, Celestial Purge (which hits, imo, the problem card, Prized Amalgam, along with most things not named Vengevine) and RiP. Of course, you can't just play RiP and sit back and do nothing, but having RiP with backup counters available is nice. If you want to add Baneslayer because it can block and keep you alive, that's fine too.
Oh, and from a brief perusing of the AdNaus primer, I found a card that might have some use in our boards -- Favor of the Mighty. It stops Infect and Bogles from targeting their dudes with enchants/buffs (and also makes the current enchants on a bogle fall off), which could be nice.
...that's such a hilarious edge case that I want to try it.
Someone posted earlier (yesterday) "I can never tell what people believe the problem matchups, the matchups you guys are going on about seem to be the easy ones to me"
So i think it's relevant we talk about this:
Conventionally I think burn is a problem matchup, but I run 3 spell snare 3 negate , a dispel, and 3 leyline. I don't see much burn. Anymore but the few times I have has been pretty breezy games 2 and 3
Affinity should be REALLY easy based our wraths, Stony silence, runed halos, and engineered explosives, but in testing I do find myself getting the occasional sneak loss out of nowhere, Keeping a good hand on the draw is very important there.
Coco and Kiki chord can just sort of win out of nowhere. Haven't had any problems with nahiri because that deck seems like a pile against us.
I think I've played against ad nauseum maybe once. I won with halos and leyline. Mono blue turns and lantern are annoying, but those are basically tier...5 or something so we really can't worry about that.
Vs lantern just hit stony silence , go big on cats or elspeth, then untapped and engineered explosives on their bridge, that works for me. Vs, turns , random mill those are probably more of a "who cares" type thing.
Interested to hear your experiences and reasoning as I spend all day testing the list I just posted against the top 10 represented decks from the top 64 of gp Charlotte and LA.
Let me know
I don't run Leylines, so I have problems with Burn, but I readily admit that if burn were to become a bigger share of what I'm seeing, I would run Leylines. After the multiple testimonies, I am re-trying out Runed Halo in the main, so maybe that helps the burn matchup incidentally.
I feel pretty even against Infect; mainboard Negates help that matchup a ton, Runed Halos is a good answer, and they can get into trouble if you follow up Supreme Verdicts with Mind Rots.
I feel pretty even against Jund; if you can Snare Bob/Goyf and Negate Lili you're in great shape. Alternatively, you can let them Lili themselves low on cards, Mind Rot them, then let Colonnade clean up. Or, sometimes, they just stick Bob and drown you in CA.
For Robots, you need the right 7 (or 6) Game 1, or they run you over. Then, Games 2-3 are about having/drawing your SB plan, whether that's Stony Silence or Hurkyl's Recall or Baneslayer Angel or your fourth wrath effect.
Jeskai runs fewer counterspells than we do, no Ghost Quarters, and is too reliant on a card that loses to our one-mana counterspell. So, you can absorb some burn to the face as long as you avoid the Burn-Burn-Snap-Burn sequences. More counters means we can win Nahiri tap-out wars (and then play Rev when their shields are down to make them cry). Them having no GQ's means we can win Colonnade-on-Colonnade pressure fights.
I don't see a lot of Junk/Azban online OR at my LGS, so I am unsure how that's supposed to go. It seems obvious not to let them assemble the Combo. Runed Halo naming Redcap seems good? And we can beat infinite life because we can't deck ourselves with WSZ. Idk if this is a hard matchup or not.
All forms of Tron (GR, U, UW, Colorless) used to suck before someone (idk who) started the +1 Steam Vents main, +2 Crumble to Dust side package. Now, at least, it's a fight, but one I don't think is still in our favor.
Finally, Eldrazi & Taxes is definitely winnable, but annoying as hell to play against and tilts me, personally. Aether Vial is such a dumb card that you have no answer to if it comes down T1.
Those are my matchup opinions/gameplans, at least.
looking for ideas for a third UW main deck win con. prefer one that can eiher A) can play offense and defense, or B) provides raw card advantage, or C) ends the game REAL fast. and it cant be soft to path, bolt, or terminate and can moat a goyf from atacking.
that means no gideon, no batterskull, and no baneslayer. so far the only one i can think of aside from a second elle is aetherling but that cant be right. i considered jace aot but bolt is pretty popular, narset is a potential one but she doesnt actualy win even thiugh her CA and loyalty damage sponge is great. thoughts?
i got wsz and elle, but im wondering if theres another option.
I forgot about Stokpile's righteous crusade against Serum Visions; my bad.
I didn't like Halos (just like I didn't like Leylines) but if you DO like them, it's acceptable to put them MB.
Bribery is very spicy if you KNOW that American Nahiri and Tron are going to be popular at Charlotte, but at my LGS in Raleigh (2.5 hours away) people have been looking for infect pieces, Ensnaring Bridges, and Jund pieces. That's obviously a small slice of what its going to be (and I didn't go Monday so I have no idea what the chatter was then), so take it with a grain of salt, but yeah.
Been testing jeskai with AV to make up the lack of esper charm. What's the correct number of revelation in that sense? Zero? It feels like zero.
I'm using think twice and vision, revelation always seems to come too late to matter, I'd rather it be keranos or something
I just really like having easy access to crumble to dust. F*** tron get that s*** out of my meta
Yeah I think the correct number of revelations in Jeskai is 0; enables you to go down to 24 lands. Lightning Helix can act as enough of a life total buffer and Serum Vision/TT give you "enough" card draw.
Tried out TheAnnihilator0798's "Dark Jeskai" list yesterday; my main concern (the mana) turned out evenhanded: There were a lot of mulligans to 6, but you could usually cobble together 3 colors by T3 and four colors by T5. The counter suite was definitely a little light, but Bolts/Electrolyze enable you to deal with permanents I was answering with Anguished Unmaking in Esper - namely Nahiri and Lili - instead of trying to sandbag Logic Knots or whatever. Adding Crumble to Dust out of the side helped the Tron matchup (as expected) and against any deck playing Colonnades. And I never ever missed White Sun's Zenith; Bolt, Bolt, draw a bunch, Snap, Bolt, still 5-6 cards in hand was usually enough pressure.
However.
It felt very much like "Dark Jeskai:" a no-Nahiri Jeskai list that just utilized Esper Charm as a stronger, more reliable form of card draw than Ancestral Vision, instead of "Angry Esper:" a toolbox of counters, removal, and card draw designed to grind the opponent down for 17 turns and make the game unwinnable for them on the 18th. In other words, it was a Lightning Bolt deck that had Esper Charms, not an Esper Charm deck that had Lightning Bolts.
Although I was happy with the deck's performance, I think that straight Jeskai or straight Esper is better. Combined, it's a good deck that's missing the most powerful elements of each of it's halves (Nahiri's "answer me in two turns or die"-ness for Jeskai and WSZ's crushing inevitability for Esper).
I suspect Tarmo-Jeskai will be a better fit that "Dark Jeskai" because Tarmo fits better with the constant, ever-tightening pressure Jeskai applies. I don't have Goyfs though, so that will remain a suspicion.
No Zenith, because obvious mana problems are obvious.
If this list gets to the late game, it's so flushed with removal and CA that it feels unstoppable against anything where Bolt has a target (probably even Jund with Bobs).
3x Terminate were in the original list, but all got the cut since B and R are both our off colors. I can usually cast everything in the list above, but Terminate is seemly impossible to cast without stumbling on lands for a little bit.
I want to add the 4th Path, and maybe some more counters, but not sure what to cut. I could see a 3rd Snap too.
I feel like this needs the Shadowmooor filter lands. -1 Glacial Fotress -1 Sulfur Falls, +1 Cascade Bluffs +1 Rugged Prairie. Maybe down to 3 Colonnades or 1 Ghost Quarter to get a Sunken Ruins in there too.
If you wanted to go creatureless, this is the type of deck Narset would shine in; Rebounding Bolts, Electrolyzes, and the occasional Esper Charm seems really good and means you can ignore incidental graveyard hate.
This looks like the most durdly deck I've ever seen. How does this deck beat Jund/Burn/Infect Game 1? How does it beat Tron at all? It takes the backup plan of two decks (Nahiri is the backup plan for Jeskai, who really just want to Snap-Bolt you into oblivion, and Thopter/Sword is the backup plan for Tezzerator, who really just want to kill you with Tezz) and mashes them together to make... a deck with no main plan. You 5-0 'ing him, pre- and post-board, should be a sign that this deck isn't that good.
Your friend is a Jedi if he keeps winning with this.
I have never missed Snapcaster in Esper. IMO, Snapcaster (which I've tried in Azorious, Esper, and Jeskai) is at its best when the spell it flashbacks applies pressure to the opponents life total (good old Bolt-Bolt-Snap-Bolt) or hand (Esper Charm them into Snap/Esper Charm them, or Thoughtsieze/Snap-Thoughtsieze). Esper control, however, REALLY wants to be drawing four cards instead of making its opponent discard four cards. Azorious has no burn OR Snap-able hand disruption.
Snap-Path-Snap is usually a "Build-your-own-wrath," right down to the mana cost, only with three chances at disruption instead of none (in the case of Verdict). Snap-Rev is win-more unless the first Rev got countered. Snap-Negate is fine but has all the issues Negate does. Snap and Logic Knot never felt like they went together (countering stuff at the cost of removing further Snap targets). Snap-Cryptic is good, but more Cryptics are always good. I have found myself replacing Snap with more cards that defend my life total (Halo/Condemns/Smother/Unmaking) and counting on the TT/Esper Charm/Rev package to be enough card draw to defend my hand.
Lately, even that hasn't been enough, so I've been going more proactive with U/W Resto-based control. And I can't even run Snapcaster in that, because the only card I REALLY want to Snapcaster is Ancestral Vision, and the rules of the game don't allow that.
TL, DR: The best card to pair with Snapcaster Mage in Modern is Lightning Bolt, which Esper Control runs 0 of.
I'm curious why you're holding on to the TT's. Serum/AV/Snap-Serum/Rev in theory seems like enough card draw, and those two slots could be the fourth Cryptic and another threat, or the fourth Cryptic and another Halo, or two more two-mana counters (Remand?), or two Condemns, or even something like Vendillion Clique.
I do have a question though; what do you find yourself Snapcastering? Snap-TT seems meh. Snap-Cryptic is expensive. Snap-Negate seems good, but Snap-Logic Knot doesn't. Snap-Rev is obviously good, but that's win-more, no? I have been without the Snaps in Esper and U/W for awhile, so I'm wondering where its value lies for you.
Around the 1:50 mark of Mrs. Mulligan's stream.
I actually managed to win this match, but there were sooo many misplays on both sides that I don't feel good about it haha.
Current List:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Celestial Colonnade
3 Hallowed Fountain
2 Watery Grave
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Drowned Catacomb
2 Plains
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Spell Snare
4 Think Twice
2 Runed Halo
2 Negate
1 Snapcaster Mage
4 Esper Charm
4 Cryptic Command
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Elpeth, Sun's Champion
2 Logic Knot
1 White Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
2 Dispel
1 Pithing Needle
2 Celestial Purge
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
2 Baneslayer Angel
G1 The deck performed as expected; he kept a 1-lander that went nowhere for 3-4 turns which bought us time
G2 I played scared around Glen Elendra Archmage, wasn't aggressive enough with Colonnades, and tried to jam an Elspeth at the worst possible time
G3 I drew nothing useful the entire game and died. Sucks to suck.
Followed that up with a loss to Kiln Fiend.deck because mulling to 5 to find Paths/Purges is no fun
I just need to jam more games.
I'd love a detailed sideboard explanation for various metas. Like, "This is what we sideboard in an aggro meta," "This is what we sideboard when Jund/Azban/Junk is meta," "This is what we sideboard for Tron/Nahiri meta." A section that accentuates the potential flexibility of the deck.
... and add Sphinx of the Final Word to the "finishers" list
As far as dredge goes, I side in more wrath effects, Celestial Purge (which hits, imo, the problem card, Prized Amalgam, along with most things not named Vengevine) and RiP. Of course, you can't just play RiP and sit back and do nothing, but having RiP with backup counters available is nice. If you want to add Baneslayer because it can block and keep you alive, that's fine too.
...that's such a hilarious edge case that I want to try it.
I don't run Leylines, so I have problems with Burn, but I readily admit that if burn were to become a bigger share of what I'm seeing, I would run Leylines. After the multiple testimonies, I am re-trying out Runed Halo in the main, so maybe that helps the burn matchup incidentally.
I feel pretty even against Infect; mainboard Negates help that matchup a ton, Runed Halos is a good answer, and they can get into trouble if you follow up Supreme Verdicts with Mind Rots.
I feel pretty even against Jund; if you can Snare Bob/Goyf and Negate Lili you're in great shape. Alternatively, you can let them Lili themselves low on cards, Mind Rot them, then let Colonnade clean up. Or, sometimes, they just stick Bob and drown you in CA.
For Robots, you need the right 7 (or 6) Game 1, or they run you over. Then, Games 2-3 are about having/drawing your SB plan, whether that's Stony Silence or Hurkyl's Recall or Baneslayer Angel or your fourth wrath effect.
Jeskai runs fewer counterspells than we do, no Ghost Quarters, and is too reliant on a card that loses to our one-mana counterspell. So, you can absorb some burn to the face as long as you avoid the Burn-Burn-Snap-Burn sequences. More counters means we can win Nahiri tap-out wars (and then play Rev when their shields are down to make them cry). Them having no GQ's means we can win Colonnade-on-Colonnade pressure fights.
I don't see a lot of Junk/Azban online OR at my LGS, so I am unsure how that's supposed to go. It seems obvious not to let them assemble the Combo. Runed Halo naming Redcap seems good? And we can beat infinite life because we can't deck ourselves with WSZ. Idk if this is a hard matchup or not.
All forms of Tron (GR, U, UW, Colorless) used to suck before someone (idk who) started the +1 Steam Vents main, +2 Crumble to Dust side package. Now, at least, it's a fight, but one I don't think is still in our favor.
Finally, Eldrazi & Taxes is definitely winnable, but annoying as hell to play against and tilts me, personally. Aether Vial is such a dumb card that you have no answer to if it comes down T1.
Those are my matchup opinions/gameplans, at least.
Sphinx of the Final Word still reads "If I untap, I win." I still stump for it.
I didn't like Halos (just like I didn't like Leylines) but if you DO like them, it's acceptable to put them MB.
Bribery is very spicy if you KNOW that American Nahiri and Tron are going to be popular at Charlotte, but at my LGS in Raleigh (2.5 hours away) people have been looking for infect pieces, Ensnaring Bridges, and Jund pieces. That's obviously a small slice of what its going to be (and I didn't go Monday so I have no idea what the chatter was then), so take it with a grain of salt, but yeah.
Yeah I think the correct number of revelations in Jeskai is 0; enables you to go down to 24 lands. Lightning Helix can act as enough of a life total buffer and Serum Vision/TT give you "enough" card draw.
However.
It felt very much like "Dark Jeskai:" a no-Nahiri Jeskai list that just utilized Esper Charm as a stronger, more reliable form of card draw than Ancestral Vision, instead of "Angry Esper:" a toolbox of counters, removal, and card draw designed to grind the opponent down for 17 turns and make the game unwinnable for them on the 18th. In other words, it was a Lightning Bolt deck that had Esper Charms, not an Esper Charm deck that had Lightning Bolts.
Although I was happy with the deck's performance, I think that straight Jeskai or straight Esper is better. Combined, it's a good deck that's missing the most powerful elements of each of it's halves (Nahiri's "answer me in two turns or die"-ness for Jeskai and WSZ's crushing inevitability for Esper).
I suspect Tarmo-Jeskai will be a better fit that "Dark Jeskai" because Tarmo fits better with the constant, ever-tightening pressure Jeskai applies. I don't have Goyfs though, so that will remain a suspicion.
I feel like this needs the Shadowmooor filter lands. -1 Glacial Fotress -1 Sulfur Falls, +1 Cascade Bluffs +1 Rugged Prairie. Maybe down to 3 Colonnades or 1 Ghost Quarter to get a Sunken Ruins in there too.
If you wanted to go creatureless, this is the type of deck Narset would shine in; Rebounding Bolts, Electrolyzes, and the occasional Esper Charm seems really good and means you can ignore incidental graveyard hate.
Edit: Holy crap there are two I's in prairie?