Quote from SynchestraI'm pretty sure we agree. I put quote marks around 'casual' in my post because it's a convenient label that everyone understands, but I don't think it's a good word in itself. What I disagree with is the word 'fun'. I think it's misleading; everybody plays Magic for fun. There's no distinction between those who play for fun and those who play to win, because the people who play to win find winning fun. If they weren't having fun they wouldn't play. So the distinction is not to do with playing for fun or playing to win, it's to do with what you find fun about Magic, i.e. what you enjoy. Both groups get grumpy when their method of enjoyment is frustrated; Spike hates building suboptimal decks (he enjoys winning and optimal decks = more winning), and Timmy/Johnny hate it when they get locked out or subjected to a sudden infinite game-winning combo. The challenge for players is to create an environment where, if you'll allow me to channel Aristotle for a second, everybody can pursue their own conception of the good.
Quote from UbershaumHeck, if you DON'T have some kind of land or artifact destruction in EDH you're going to be completely lit up by artifacts and lands of other players.
Can't let mono blue have extraplanar lens, can't let green keep gaea's cradle, the list goes on. Also can't let someone scroll rack 10 cards.
There is a line though....just like your argument about counterspelling. You should be prepared to play around some LD and artifact wreckin'!
And really, in a 4 player EDH game....it's just completely impossible to counter everything unless you are otherwordly with counterbalance. Well, then again, most people don't realize that when you counter things you only counter something that's actually a threat...hey...wait a second. So people often forget that the blue mage let you have a bunch of stuff, but they remember that one thing that they really wanted getting countered. Lesson, threat density.
Quote from chris_nwo2sweetI explained that she was the threat, but all he could hear were her two gigantic orb of dreams bouncing up and down, rhythmically.
Quote from SynchestraI really think the word 'fun' is unhelpful here. Casual players are in no way opposed to winning, and Spikes, I assume, find winning 'fun'. Winning and fun are in no way mutually exclusive, which is why there's so much confusion/argument about casual vs competitive, especially in EDH. I think there's a better way of looking at it:
Magic players play Magic for enjoyment. It seems trivially true that very few people would play any game if they didn't enjoy doing so. Obviously, different people derive enjoyment from the game in different ways. People who play what we call 'competitive' decks derive enjoyment from the result of the game - the win. So, naturally, they optimise their decks to give them the greatest possible chance of deriving the most enjoyment from each game. This may include infinite combos, lockdown, and the like, which are fair game because they increase enjoyment for the player.
People who play 'casual' decks derive enjoyment from the process of playing the game. This includes winning, but also a whole host of other things - big plays, cool interactions, fat beats. 'Casual' players enjoy these things in and of themselves, whereas 'competitive' players view them as a means to an end. Naturally, 'casual' players don't like it when their enjoyment is frustrated by being locked out of the game.
So you have a situation where players derive enjoyment from different aspects of the game. The solution is not for 'competitive' players to play suboptimally, or for 'casual' players to suck it up and play Clique, but for each group to have a bit of maturity and realise that playing games by definition is not all about them, but involves other people who need to enjoy themselves if they are to keep playing. Compromise is the name of the game here.
P.S: the above is also why 'play to win' Street Fighter guy who was popular a while about was so horribly wrong about everything.
P.P.S: sorry for derailing the thread.
Quote from d0suI'm not sure we really disagree. You're more than welcome to have house rules, and you're more than welcome to ask those who join you to abide by those. If someone repeatedly violates the trust or accepted behavior of the playgroup, then that doesn't exactly leave you a lot of options, does it? I just have a problem with the policy of those playgroups or individuals that get upset (I mean, actually angry) the first time someone violates that norm.
Quote from viperesqueI would argue that caring about things other than winning makes you casual by definition. As far as I'm aware 'casual' means that you play for fun, not necessarily to win. I think you are giving the word negative connotations that it just does not have.
Quote from d0suI agree, but at the same time you have to realize that at least some EDH players who "ban" or shun other people from their playgroup aren't exactly being objective. They've already been the victim of too many actual DB plays, or have read too many overzealous "Spirit of EDH" posts on dragonhighlander.net, or whatever, and they sometimes direct that frustration/animosity at someone who may not actually deserve it.
Quote from helghast1011. When people complain about the power level of my deck, I am sorry I have a bigger card pool than you? Spend 100$ on random EDH staples and you should be golden.
2. People complaining that I run infinite combos. I'm sorry I would like a way to win when suddenly everyone at the table turns on me?
Those are my two biggest pet peeves in edh.
What are yours?