Hey guys, I'd like to derail the conversation if I could for a moment to go to magical christmasland. Let's say that Dread Return was unbanned, and you were trying to make a dredge deck that would bust the format in half. What's the dirtiest, most oppressive thing you could do with Dread Return?
(I realize that WotC has a hate-on for dredge and that Skullclamp is coming off the BL before Dread Return lol.)
The kiki chord player brutally misplayed in game 1 by letting him untap with tron while having Fulminator Mage on the table. I literally turned off the stream. No idea how he's 8-0.
To echo what basically everyone else in this thread has said: Eldrazi is by far worse than TC Delver ever was. Eldrazi has soul-crushing metagame numbers, and next to no decks that can scrape together even 55-45 advantage against it.
To illustrate the brutal effects Eldrazi have h on the format, consider that Modern has always been the lightning bolt format. It was played in 38% of decks in the format. That number is now 24%, and every staple in Eldrazi decks are more played than it.
I don't think that's happened in the history of Modern.
Ban:
- Eye of Ugin - Eldrazi, etc.
- Eldrazi Temple - Eldrazi, etc.
- Simian Spirit Guide - Enables degenerate stuff like Grishoalbrand. Could be Goryos instead.
Unban:
- Splinter Twin - Shouldn't have been banned.
- Blood braid Elf - Not a ban worthy card.
- Stoneforge Mystic - Because white.
I dont agree with your thinking either, maybe I should start calling you a troll too.
Disagreeing with people doesn't make you a troll. Being hypocritical and self-contradicting makes you a troll. You very vocally supported the Twin ban, which was banned on the basis of, what you have described as a "big stage" in which "the masses don't play in" (which easily refers to using Top 8 percents as justification for ban). But then you say this about Eldrazi: "I really hope April comes and goes with no changes and Wotc comes out with a statement along the lines of, everyone has complained about messing with the format too much too often, now go solve it." In addition to: "On the big stage yes the format looks broken but, what percentage of us play on that stage? 5%? 10%? The masses are complaining about a meta they dont play in." This implies you wish nothing were banned because it doesn't affect your local meta (yet!) and would rather people keep trying to figure it out or something. Whether or not you actually believe this, it is contradictory and extremely trolling to hold this opinion after supporting the Twin ban so adamantly.
Thank you. It never ceases to amaze me that his trolling is tolerated here.
I know these stats have been posted already, but I'm going to add my 2 cents.
SCG Louisville Open
1) Day 2 metagame breakdown: 31 out of 65 decks are eldrazi. (48%)
2) Top 32: 20 out of 32 decks are eldrazi. (63%)
3) Top 8: 4 out of 8 decks are eldrazi. (50%)
MTG Top 8 Meta (Last 2 weeks)
Eldrazi at 39% of metagame. MTG Top 8 meta
Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch
Top 8: 6 out of 8 decks are eldrazi. (75%)
I have to say that I feel pretty vindicated dropping modern as a format. It makes me a little sad, but I can't condone the blatant disregard that WOTC displays for the format's health. Probably the only way to guarantee that eldrazi is permanently crippled is to ban both Eye and Temple. Even if that were to happen in April, I don't think I'll come back.
1) Put the 400 best magic players in the world in a room.
2) Give them 2 weeks to figure out what the strongest deck choice in the format is. Almost every major deck type is represented. There was BGx, Infect, Zoo, Burn, Tron, Scapeshift, varieties of CoCo Chord, Affinity, URx control, oh and this new eldrazi archetype. Basically the only thing not present is grixis, merfolk, and elves.
3) Pit them against each other for 10 rounds.
4) Observe results.
Conclusion: Only ONE archetype that existed before 2 weeks ago manages to crawl into the top 8. The entire metagame was obliterated in one fell swoop.
Now maybe decks can be tuned to deal with eldrazi aggro. But I doubt it. I hope someone screencaps the meta as it exists today, and the meta as it exists in 2 months. I for one am done with modern.
So my friend who I mainly play against has made a Breach deck which can throw out an Elish Norn on turn 3. How do we deal with Norn?
#1) /tableflip
#2) Go to game 2.
The only thing I can even imagine working is Twisted Image into Dismember on the Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. But that requires having both in your hand, them not having disruption, and you somehow being able to rebuild after all that.
Hey guys, I'd like to know if the match-up data on the first page is still accurate, or if some of those match-ups have changed with new cards and changes in the meta? Also how do we do against Bx Eldrazi? Seems like a poor match-up if they're running all the standard GY hate.
I saw one starting at ~$59 on eBay. Nice pull if you got one.
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
I know Snapcaster Mage and Serum Visions are great cards but i dunno man i personally would have gotten for more then those cards if trading a foil mythic card, Specially for Kozilek
I think according to goldfish, I got $93ish US in trade from him (I got a couple other random cards). I expect that Snappy will slowly increase in value over time, but isn't it quite likely that Kozilek will drop quickly after release? (like a $20-$25 drop within a month?)
I saw one starting at ~$59 on eBay. Nice pull if you got one.
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
Decks like Scapeshift, Gifts, UWR Control/Geist just all got *worse*, not better. They lost a good matchup + the bad matchups got a bump. I really don't get the rationale.
Precisely.
I'd like to address two bad arguments that I've seen crop up.
1. "The Splinter Twin ban makes sense, because it allows for more diversity in tempo/control/blue decks."
This relies on a misunderstanding of why diversity exists and why decks are viable (or not viable). Magic is roughly a Rock–Paper–Scissors type of game. An idealized version of a healthy Magic format is: Midrange beats Aggro, Combo and Ramp beat Midrange, Control and Tempo (Aggro-Control) beat Combo and Ramp, and finally Aggro beats Control and Tempo.
However, decks and archetypes are not viable in a vacuum, they are *only* viable because they beat something else. Think of it like this: a format in competitive equilibrium doesn't want to keep the Scissors decks viable just because, instead it "wants" to have as few decks and archetypes as possible. Scarcity, not surplus, is the natural rule.
So, let's say Twin was the best Scissors deck. It could usually beat Paper (Tron and linear Aggro like Infect or Affinity) and lose to Rock (UWR Control, or other blue/control decks; also Jund and other BGx midrange and disruptive decks). When Scissors disappears because of something external to the game (a banning), the Rock decks won't magically step in to fill its role. Instead, they'll become worse because they've lost their natural prey. With Scissors dead, Rock begins to starve, and Paper cleans up.
I know it's a bummer to be brewer and always be told, "If you like blue control, why not play Twin?" but you have to appreciate that Twin is what created the niche for other control decks to exist in the first place. With the major Tempo/Control deck gone, the Ramp, Combo (except Bloom), and linear Aggro (nearly combo decks themselves) decks have nothing to fear.
When the dinosaurs died out, our rat-like mammalian ancestors peaked out of their holes and said, "What's stopping us now?" The answer was nothing.
2. "The Splinter Twin ban makes sense, because WOTC doesn't want a solved format."
This incorrectly implies that Modern was solved or was near to being solved. It was not. In the past year we've seen the competitive ascent of some old decks (Amulet Bloom, Grishoalbrand, Lantern) and we've seen entirely new decks (Eldrazi, CoCo, Grixis) thanks to new cards being printed (BFZ cards, Collected Company, and Tasigur/KCommand/Angler, respectively).
If absolutely no cards had been banned for another year, I guarantee that the meta would have continued to evolve. Slowly and subtlely, yes, but surely. Slow and subtle changes are what we should want for a non-rotating format. (Even chess — considered by some to be a "static" game — has an evolving metagame.) Standard should be fast and drastic, obviously appealing to new players. Modern should be slow and subtle, appealing to players who have been playing for at least two years and who plan to play for many more. The only bad thing about Legacy is its price*, its barrier to entry, not its stability or subtlety.
*And perhaps its lack of color balance. I will go on the record as saying archetype balance (which Legacy has) is far more important than color balance, because balance is only worth having when the things being balanced are inherently different. I'd much rather have a format where, for example, blue control, blue combo, and blue aggro are all viable, than a format with five colors of midrange.
I think that Goblin Dark-Dwellers does work however.
(I realize that WotC has a hate-on for dredge and that Skullclamp is coming off the BL before Dread Return lol.)
To illustrate the brutal effects Eldrazi have h on the format, consider that Modern has always been the lightning bolt format. It was played in 38% of decks in the format. That number is now 24%, and every staple in Eldrazi decks are more played than it.
I don't think that's happened in the history of Modern.
- Eye of Ugin - Eldrazi, etc.
- Eldrazi Temple - Eldrazi, etc.
- Simian Spirit Guide - Enables degenerate stuff like Grishoalbrand. Could be Goryos instead.
Unban:
- Splinter Twin - Shouldn't have been banned.
- Blood braid Elf - Not a ban worthy card.
- Stoneforge Mystic - Because white.
AV is probably ok, but I'm a little fuzzy on it.
Thank you. It never ceases to amaze me that his trolling is tolerated here.
I know these stats have been posted already, but I'm going to add my 2 cents.
SCG Louisville Open
1) Day 2 metagame breakdown: 31 out of 65 decks are eldrazi. (48%)
2) Top 32: 20 out of 32 decks are eldrazi. (63%)
3) Top 8: 4 out of 8 decks are eldrazi. (50%)
MTG Top 8 Meta (Last 2 weeks)
Eldrazi at 39% of metagame.
MTG Top 8 meta
Pro Tour Oath of the Gatewatch
Top 8: 6 out of 8 decks are eldrazi. (75%)
I have to say that I feel pretty vindicated dropping modern as a format. It makes me a little sad, but I can't condone the blatant disregard that WOTC displays for the format's health. Probably the only way to guarantee that eldrazi is permanently crippled is to ban both Eye and Temple. Even if that were to happen in April, I don't think I'll come back.
/popcorn
1) Put the 400 best magic players in the world in a room.
2) Give them 2 weeks to figure out what the strongest deck choice in the format is. Almost every major deck type is represented. There was BGx, Infect, Zoo, Burn, Tron, Scapeshift, varieties of CoCo Chord, Affinity, URx control, oh and this new eldrazi archetype. Basically the only thing not present is grixis, merfolk, and elves.
3) Pit them against each other for 10 rounds.
4) Observe results.
Conclusion: Only ONE archetype that existed before 2 weeks ago manages to crawl into the top 8. The entire metagame was obliterated in one fell swoop.
Now maybe decks can be tuned to deal with eldrazi aggro. But I doubt it. I hope someone screencaps the meta as it exists today, and the meta as it exists in 2 months. I for one am done with modern.
#1) /tableflip
#2) Go to game 2.
The only thing I can even imagine working is Twisted Image into Dismember on the Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite. But that requires having both in your hand, them not having disruption, and you somehow being able to rebuild after all that.
I think according to goldfish, I got $93ish US in trade from him (I got a couple other random cards). I expect that Snappy will slowly increase in value over time, but isn't it quite likely that Kozilek will drop quickly after release? (like a $20-$25 drop within a month?)
Thanks. The rest of the cards in my pre-release packs were real bad, but I'll take a hugely expensive foil mythic. lol
My friend's got a thing for eldrazi, so I traded it to my friend for a Snapcaster Mage and 3 Serum Visions. Not sure who got the worse end of the deal on that one? Anyhow, thanks for the reply.
Quoted for best post in the thread.