Puppeteer Clique gives evasion, persist and ETB value to your monsters.
It's worth noting that while we don't have an official ruling yet, when a meld creature dies, if it had undying, persist etc both halves will return to play which is some super value if you apply that to combined.
So if I mash up a monster with Grusilda and one half gives it undying, if that combined creature is killed does the whole creature come back with a +1 counter or just the undying half?
I'm less inclined towards combo or infect, because silver border is a by permission thing to run so it should be more fun and wacky stuff. If someone else runs combo enablers and they end up in the graveyard... well thats another story.
So sorta thinking keyword soup with a few big bodies and combat relevant or card drawing abilities thrown into the mix.
So yeah, silver border or not I expect to see this amazing thing see a lot of play as a general and I'm wondering what some of the best targets are for her?
Already thinking the triple strike and 'attacks every combat phase' goblins from the unset. But what are some other awesome creatures to merge together?
I pick based on what I want to play plus a predetermined "power level" for the table. IE there are a few nasty blue control decks and stuff running around, and I don't want to play my terrible DBZ tribal deck into that stuff.
It's also common for us to play "all mono" or "all fatties decks" or whatever by prior agreement or just by seeing whats on the table already.
I've found that random generals without consideration for power level leads to a lot of salt and a lot of frankly crappy games
Most snowflakey decks / attempts to blow my own trumpet
-I have a Dragon Ball Z theme deck, where every single card (including lands) has been altered in magic set generator to have different art and flavor text.
-I have a made out entirely of cards generated using the mtg neural networks such as Roborosewater.
-I used to run Vial Smasher / Ludevic burn. As in lightning bolts and shocks and other 'proper' burn rather than EDH burn. Have since turned it into a 4C pile of good spellslinger stuff though =(
Everything I run is meant to be somewhat different or special in some way, but those are the weirdest.
Friends decks;
-Axe deck, where every card except basic lands has an axe in the picture
-Iroas, God of Victory legit boros aggro
-A balls to the walls boros combo deck that can play with the big boy decks.
Lands. They are a ***** mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game. Also the inflexible turn structure and the way priority etc work for online play is clunky as hell.
In Cthulhu, you draw two cards a turn and anything can be a land. In Netrunner, you get 3-4 actions and any of them can be a draw. Way less reliance on top decking, getting lucky with variance or being blue to have a deep game.
This post is amazing, with a ton of fantastic stuggestions.
For starters, I love the idea of including loss conditions in the deck too. The Phage / Fractured Identity combination, as well as possibly some shenanigans with Demonic Pact (my favourite black card and the cornerstone of my only 'serious' modern deck) make it too good to pass that up.
Re; Ramos as the general - agreed, theres no effective synergistic 5c general for the wincons themselves but Ramos does give you a solid threat that can soak removal and potential ramp, and use as a door enabler is fantastic.
Regarding suggestions for cards, I'm mostly looking for suggestions that either support several strategies to a lesser extent rather than insta-combo with one strategy, or cards that are useful in their own right *and* support a wincon.
[b]Near-Death Experience;[/b]
Repay in kind - too nonbo with my lifegain wincons
Soulgorger - probably too bad outside of the combo. I am wondering if there could be some play with sac outlets and cards like Rhox Faithmender to synergise with his on-death lifegain
Ad Nauseam - a great suggestion as it can provide some card advantage
Hatred - is to be considered. The possibility of a kill out of nowhere by swinging with some value dork is too good to pass up.
Necropotence - has already been suggested, but it is probably the best enabler I've seen.
Minion of the Wastes - I'm unsure about this. He's risky for enabling the combo due to being sorcery speed, but he can also be a flexible threat coming in as a 39/39 or midway as a 20/20 etc.
Poltergeist - is a solid enabler for NDE but a useless card otherwise, so I'm less inclined to run it.
Second Chance - I really don't know what to think about this one. I think if we're at 5 life in the upkeep, we've probably found a way to drop to exactly 1 or are in a situation where this card isn't that great. It looks mostly like an expensive draw step to try and topdeck a win? Less inclined to this one unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Hex Parasite - It took me this long to realize this guy has a phyrexian cost for his ability. Instead of an upgrade to Vampire Hexmage this critter is a full on combo enabler that can eat planeswalkers and the likes. Definitely coming into the deck.
[b]Mechanized Production / Revel / Hellkite[/b]
Wraths - Yes I did remember that! But rather than focus on wraths I'm more inclined to enable this card using repeated sacrifice engines (ideally non-infinite)
Curse of Opulence - A maybe card. I love curses and I love this curse and I want to like it, but is it good enough?
Spell Swindle - Iffy due to the high cost but I think this one is likely to be included due to the general usefulness of a counterspell
Myr Battlesphere - I want to say no because I abuse this thing in several decks already, but it does tick a lot of boxes and is enabled easily by the clones that will be run for biovisionary.
Sharding Sphinx - Would be dependent on the end accessibility of artifact creatures. This guy and myr battlesphere are strong together, but is there enough synergy elsewhere?
Annointed Procession etc - Doubling season is in, not sure if other similar effects are necessary.
Mycosynth Lattice - I don't run this card on principle, but yeah it would work damn well.
[b]Biovisionary[/b]
Clones - Several different clones are on the list already because they work so well with so many aspects of the deck
Kiki-Jiki - I'm a long term advocate of this card, he's definitely in as a flexible clone effect.
Saheeli's Artistry - While there are a few artifacts to copy I think its not enough to warrant the expensive clone
Infinite Reflection - This is tempting. I don't like the idea of insta-win with biovisionary, but I love the versatility that comes from reflecting Myr Battlesphere etc. Definitely in.
Followed Footsteps - This has never worked for me in the past, I think I'll pass on it.
Flameshadow Conjuring - If the final build has enough ETB effects this is a great inclusion, otherwise it's not amazing for biovisonary due to an inability to keep the visionaries over time
Splinter Twin - Largely as Flameshadow or Kiki. Depending on how effective these look in the final build it could be a third version of the effect.
[b]High Life WIns[/b]
Test of Endurance: I've left it out because it's identical in overall effect to Fellidar Sovereign, but more boring in that it doesn't do anything else.
Rhox Faithmender - I'm thinking it can do shenanigans with Soulgorger and is a solid enabler for the various lifegain synergies. In.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - Too passive and can interfere with attempts to reduce life to 1 for NDE.
Well of Lost Dreams - This one is already in, such fantastic draw potential
Alhammarret's Archive - Fantastic effect, will try it out and see if its too expensive.
Fumigate - I love the idea of building up tokens for Epic Struggle and then flipping over to a lifegain wincon using this. In.
Beacon of Immortality - I'd prefer to avoid cards that do nothing but life.
Exsanguinate - This card gets too many groans from me and my playgroup so I'm going to leave it out.
Debt to the Deathless - As exsanguinate
Platinum Emperion - Would probably get in the way of gaining enough life more often than would be liked.
Wall of Reverence - Would work fantastically as a constant source of lifegain, synergy with the fatties from Mayael, and a good blocker. Will definitely look into this one.
[b]Mayael's Anima[/card]
-Dark Depths combo: I had initially looked at this combo and dismissed it as not a "win the game effect" but I didn't clue on that it triggers the anima. I think I'll run Thespian Stage (to support Maze End), Hex Parasite and Depths.
-Serra's Avatar: I'm on the fence with this. Its fantastic for Anima, ties into the lifegain and will likely proc the lifegain with cards like Wall of Reverence. But its also very expensive and white heavy. Will definitely keep it in mind.
-Mossbridge Troll: I do like this one, will keep it in mind as like Serra it's hard to decide which pricey fatties can make the cut.
-Other suggestions: Too much a case of no effect fatties for me.
[b]Barren Glory[/b]
I think I'll limit this one to O-ring and Apocalypse. I don't want to run land D as my group hates it, so the cycling part of decree isn't useful. Kaervik's Spite is just sitting in my trade folder begging to be used but it's too niche outside of a dedicated barren deck - I think I'd rather just rely on casting my entire hand.
Epic Struggle
Mycoloth, Avenger - This is a great suggestion as it also fulfils mayael's anima
Rampaging - THis one will be down to how many large fatties end up in the deck. If I run a lot I'll be inclined to run the green draw that can benefit from the beasts.
Aura Mutation - Removal and support for a wincon makes this my type of card
Others - Storm Herd is a maybe (10 mana wtf) but not keen on the others
[b]Darksteel etc[/b]
Vorel, Gilder - a superstar for all of these, and also for the +1 avenues for hitting Mayael.
Deepglow Skate - a maybe due to the one off effect
Winding Constrictor - consistent bonus for all counter based effects is good by me.
Mana storage / increase - Will consider this approach. It definitely enables some of the stupid expensive options for the other wincons such as Storm Herd
[b]Lab Maniac[/b]
This card alongside Mortal Combat weren't mentioned because I want to rely on heavy duty draw and looting as opposed to dedicated self-mill to enable these.
[b]Tree/Trisk[/b]
I love these lose the game triggers, I will just slam this in for S&G and see how we go
I am running Research // Development to add additional Hedron Archives and Biovisionaries to my deck.
I love those suggestions for Approach, will look at adding them in.
The whole point of the deck is to run all of the wincons. I'm well aware that this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the deck. But in our jankfest matches you get major style points for running "all" of something and very little for running a streamlined efficient version. For example, my friend's deck is an Axe tribal deck, where every card except for lands has an axe in its art. Theres no style points in "most" of the cards having axes, but heaps if they all do. In the same vein the deck loses it's personality if it is "some" or "most" of the wincons, the whole point is to run them all, at least in the first draft.
If I was going to focus the deck, it would be an all in Hedron Archive deck because I consider that the jankiest of the wincons.
Seems to defeat the purpose to fill a wacky deck with EDH staples.
For weirdo cards, I absolutely adore Knowledge Pool. Now everyone is playing un-cards!
I also disagree with the label of "chaos card" for Knowledge Pool. Chaos cards ensure randomness, for example Possibility Storm. I can't stand that stuff. But Knowledge Pool is not randomness, it is controllable as you know what your going to get.
If I want to be strong, UG all the way. That combination is insane.
If I want to feel like a snowflake, WR is where it's at. You can do far more with red white than most players give credit for.
But probably the colour combination I like the most is a heavily red UR deck, pretty much just running blue to be a red deck that doesn't run out of cards and enough counters so that my own stuff doesn't get countered.
I tried building something like this just in Naya and it was a disaster. Each of these wincons want something competely different from your deck and there's just no building a halfway decent deck that can achieve even one of it's goals if you run all. You'll be better of selecting no more than 4 or 5 that can be achieved by one or two global stratgies for your deck and try to make those work.
I tried building a Naya deck with doubling season and token doublers and played some token generators (to go wide for Epic Struggle) and thr Hydra's got big for Mayael's Anima. I played some lifelink giving stuff so the creatures could gain me a lot of life for Test of Endurance. Maybe you're a better deckbuilder than I am but I couldn't get that to run consistent.
Yeah it seems like the possibility of it being a 'good' deck is pretty slim. However the deck is mainly there to be something for our turbo-casual games and lets me play 'combo' without feeling bad. I want to try and run every wincon for the style points but I'm imagining that some of the more iffy ones will get cut in the first major revision of the decklist.
If your mana base can handle it, Necropotence is another enabler for Near-Death Experience, and is a lot better on its own than the other enablers you've listed for that wincon.
This is why I made the thread lol, such an obvious replacement for those cards. Triple black is a bit rough but if I'm at the levels of mana needed for NDE I can probably scrape that much together.
Puppeteer Clique gives evasion, persist and ETB value to your monsters.
It's worth noting that while we don't have an official ruling yet, when a meld creature dies, if it had undying, persist etc both halves will return to play which is some super value if you apply that to combined.
So if I mash up a monster with Grusilda and one half gives it undying, if that combined creature is killed does the whole creature come back with a +1 counter or just the undying half?
So sorta thinking keyword soup with a few big bodies and combat relevant or card drawing abilities thrown into the mix.
So yeah, silver border or not I expect to see this amazing thing see a lot of play as a general and I'm wondering what some of the best targets are for her?
Already thinking the triple strike and 'attacks every combat phase' goblins from the unset. But what are some other awesome creatures to merge together?
It's also common for us to play "all mono" or "all fatties decks" or whatever by prior agreement or just by seeing whats on the table already.
I've found that random generals without consideration for power level leads to a lot of salt and a lot of frankly crappy games
-I have a Dragon Ball Z theme deck, where every single card (including lands) has been altered in magic set generator to have different art and flavor text.
-I have a made out entirely of cards generated using the mtg neural networks such as Roborosewater.
-I used to run Vial Smasher / Ludevic burn. As in lightning bolts and shocks and other 'proper' burn rather than EDH burn. Have since turned it into a 4C pile of good spellslinger stuff though =(
Everything I run is meant to be somewhat different or special in some way, but those are the weirdest.
Friends decks;
-Axe deck, where every card except basic lands has an axe in the picture
-Iroas, God of Victory legit boros aggro
-A balls to the walls boros combo deck that can play with the big boy decks.
Lands. They are a ***** mechanic that adds nothing of value to the game. Also the inflexible turn structure and the way priority etc work for online play is clunky as hell.
In Cthulhu, you draw two cards a turn and anything can be a land. In Netrunner, you get 3-4 actions and any of them can be a draw. Way less reliance on top decking, getting lucky with variance or being blue to have a deep game.
That said I still run them, and I'm a particular sucker for the partners
I love Phyrexian Processcor and Mycolith is a beast. I'm not sure how useful paradox haze would be here?
I love Plunge as a useful card outside of the combo
Sorry I thought I'd replied to this.
This post is amazing, with a ton of fantastic stuggestions.
For starters, I love the idea of including loss conditions in the deck too. The Phage / Fractured Identity combination, as well as possibly some shenanigans with Demonic Pact (my favourite black card and the cornerstone of my only 'serious' modern deck) make it too good to pass that up.
Re; Ramos as the general - agreed, theres no effective synergistic 5c general for the wincons themselves but Ramos does give you a solid threat that can soak removal and potential ramp, and use as a door enabler is fantastic.
Regarding suggestions for cards, I'm mostly looking for suggestions that either support several strategies to a lesser extent rather than insta-combo with one strategy, or cards that are useful in their own right *and* support a wincon.
[b]Near-Death Experience;[/b]
Repay in kind - too nonbo with my lifegain wincons
Soulgorger - probably too bad outside of the combo. I am wondering if there could be some play with sac outlets and cards like Rhox Faithmender to synergise with his on-death lifegain
Ad Nauseam - a great suggestion as it can provide some card advantage
Hatred - is to be considered. The possibility of a kill out of nowhere by swinging with some value dork is too good to pass up.
Necropotence - has already been suggested, but it is probably the best enabler I've seen.
Minion of the Wastes - I'm unsure about this. He's risky for enabling the combo due to being sorcery speed, but he can also be a flexible threat coming in as a 39/39 or midway as a 20/20 etc.
Poltergeist - is a solid enabler for NDE but a useless card otherwise, so I'm less inclined to run it.
Second Chance - I really don't know what to think about this one. I think if we're at 5 life in the upkeep, we've probably found a way to drop to exactly 1 or are in a situation where this card isn't that great. It looks mostly like an expensive draw step to try and topdeck a win? Less inclined to this one unless someone can convince me otherwise.
Hex Parasite - It took me this long to realize this guy has a phyrexian cost for his ability. Instead of an upgrade to Vampire Hexmage this critter is a full on combo enabler that can eat planeswalkers and the likes. Definitely coming into the deck.
[b]Mechanized Production / Revel / Hellkite[/b]
Wraths - Yes I did remember that! But rather than focus on wraths I'm more inclined to enable this card using repeated sacrifice engines (ideally non-infinite)
Curse of Opulence - A maybe card. I love curses and I love this curse and I want to like it, but is it good enough?
Spell Swindle - Iffy due to the high cost but I think this one is likely to be included due to the general usefulness of a counterspell
Myr Battlesphere - I want to say no because I abuse this thing in several decks already, but it does tick a lot of boxes and is enabled easily by the clones that will be run for biovisionary.
Sharding Sphinx - Would be dependent on the end accessibility of artifact creatures. This guy and myr battlesphere are strong together, but is there enough synergy elsewhere?
Annointed Procession etc - Doubling season is in, not sure if other similar effects are necessary.
Mycosynth Lattice - I don't run this card on principle, but yeah it would work damn well.
[b]Biovisionary[/b]
Clones - Several different clones are on the list already because they work so well with so many aspects of the deck
Kiki-Jiki - I'm a long term advocate of this card, he's definitely in as a flexible clone effect.
Saheeli's Artistry - While there are a few artifacts to copy I think its not enough to warrant the expensive clone
Infinite Reflection - This is tempting. I don't like the idea of insta-win with biovisionary, but I love the versatility that comes from reflecting Myr Battlesphere etc. Definitely in.
Followed Footsteps - This has never worked for me in the past, I think I'll pass on it.
Flameshadow Conjuring - If the final build has enough ETB effects this is a great inclusion, otherwise it's not amazing for biovisonary due to an inability to keep the visionaries over time
Splinter Twin - Largely as Flameshadow or Kiki. Depending on how effective these look in the final build it could be a third version of the effect.
[b]High Life WIns[/b]
Test of Endurance: I've left it out because it's identical in overall effect to Fellidar Sovereign, but more boring in that it doesn't do anything else.
Rhox Faithmender - I'm thinking it can do shenanigans with Soulgorger and is a solid enabler for the various lifegain synergies. In.
Kambal, Consul of Allocation - Too passive and can interfere with attempts to reduce life to 1 for NDE.
Well of Lost Dreams - This one is already in, such fantastic draw potential
Alhammarret's Archive - Fantastic effect, will try it out and see if its too expensive.
Fumigate - I love the idea of building up tokens for Epic Struggle and then flipping over to a lifegain wincon using this. In.
Beacon of Immortality - I'd prefer to avoid cards that do nothing but life.
Exsanguinate - This card gets too many groans from me and my playgroup so I'm going to leave it out.
Debt to the Deathless - As exsanguinate
Platinum Emperion - Would probably get in the way of gaining enough life more often than would be liked.
Wall of Reverence - Would work fantastically as a constant source of lifegain, synergy with the fatties from Mayael, and a good blocker. Will definitely look into this one.
[b]Mayael's Anima[/card]
-Dark Depths combo: I had initially looked at this combo and dismissed it as not a "win the game effect" but I didn't clue on that it triggers the anima. I think I'll run Thespian Stage (to support Maze End), Hex Parasite and Depths.
-Serra's Avatar: I'm on the fence with this. Its fantastic for Anima, ties into the lifegain and will likely proc the lifegain with cards like Wall of Reverence. But its also very expensive and white heavy. Will definitely keep it in mind.
-Mossbridge Troll: I do like this one, will keep it in mind as like Serra it's hard to decide which pricey fatties can make the cut.
-Other suggestions: Too much a case of no effect fatties for me.
[b]Barren Glory[/b]
I think I'll limit this one to O-ring and Apocalypse. I don't want to run land D as my group hates it, so the cycling part of decree isn't useful. Kaervik's Spite is just sitting in my trade folder begging to be used but it's too niche outside of a dedicated barren deck - I think I'd rather just rely on casting my entire hand.
Epic Struggle
Mycoloth, Avenger - This is a great suggestion as it also fulfils mayael's anima
Rampaging - THis one will be down to how many large fatties end up in the deck. If I run a lot I'll be inclined to run the green draw that can benefit from the beasts.
Aura Mutation - Removal and support for a wincon makes this my type of card
Others - Storm Herd is a maybe (10 mana wtf) but not keen on the others
[b]Darksteel etc[/b]
Vorel, Gilder - a superstar for all of these, and also for the +1 avenues for hitting Mayael.
Deepglow Skate - a maybe due to the one off effect
Winding Constrictor - consistent bonus for all counter based effects is good by me.
Mana storage / increase - Will consider this approach. It definitely enables some of the stupid expensive options for the other wincons such as Storm Herd
[b]Lab Maniac[/b]
This card alongside Mortal Combat weren't mentioned because I want to rely on heavy duty draw and looting as opposed to dedicated self-mill to enable these.
[b]Tree/Trisk[/b]
I love these lose the game triggers, I will just slam this in for S&G and see how we go
Re; research // development I don't see a need to clear it with a playgroup, but even if I did I know they'd be fine with it.
I love those suggestions for Approach, will look at adding them in.
The whole point of the deck is to run all of the wincons. I'm well aware that this will drastically reduce the effectiveness of the deck. But in our jankfest matches you get major style points for running "all" of something and very little for running a streamlined efficient version. For example, my friend's deck is an Axe tribal deck, where every card except for lands has an axe in its art. Theres no style points in "most" of the cards having axes, but heaps if they all do. In the same vein the deck loses it's personality if it is "some" or "most" of the wincons, the whole point is to run them all, at least in the first draft.
If I was going to focus the deck, it would be an all in Hedron Archive deck because I consider that the jankiest of the wincons.
For weirdo cards, I absolutely adore Knowledge Pool. Now everyone is playing un-cards!
I also disagree with the label of "chaos card" for Knowledge Pool. Chaos cards ensure randomness, for example Possibility Storm. I can't stand that stuff. But Knowledge Pool is not randomness, it is controllable as you know what your going to get.
If I want to be strong, UG all the way. That combination is insane.
If I want to feel like a snowflake, WR is where it's at. You can do far more with red white than most players give credit for.
But probably the colour combination I like the most is a heavily red UR deck, pretty much just running blue to be a red deck that doesn't run out of cards and enough counters so that my own stuff doesn't get countered.
Bah, thanks for the heads up. I really like Hex Parasite!
Yeah it seems like the possibility of it being a 'good' deck is pretty slim. However the deck is mainly there to be something for our turbo-casual games and lets me play 'combo' without feeling bad. I want to try and run every wincon for the style points but I'm imagining that some of the more iffy ones will get cut in the first major revision of the decklist.
This is why I made the thread lol, such an obvious replacement for those cards. Triple black is a bit rough but if I'm at the levels of mana needed for NDE I can probably scrape that much together.