Thanks for your thoughts on the burn matchup, Phaircaron, very helpful. I don't have any Scavenging oozes, so no main deck lifegain. That would probably help, but the notes on how you approach the match are an even bigger deal.
How should we approach the burn matchup? Racing doesn't seem to work, but if I try to hang back and trade/block I end up just getting burned out a little later. Is it just a bad matchup?
I wish they would be open to doing second print runs of sets that were well received and didn't negatively impact prices by very much. Another run of MM1 would be well recieved, for example, and wouldn't cost wizards anything in development. Have they made any promises about keeping the print run limited?
Round 1
Mirror match :). Win 2-0
In the first game I just out-drew him. I had a great initial curve of experiment one, geist, avatar, avatar, and finished with kicked vines + prey upon to clear a blocker and swing in for lethal. He didn't really manage to get on the board.
I didn't bring anything in from the side.
Game 2 was a close race; I had militant + geist + avatar, he had two geists each wearing a rancor + leatherback. He had me on the ropes; I dropped all the way to 1, but topdecked the 4th forest that I needed to kill him from 10 with double kicked vines on an unblocked Strangleroot Geist.
Round 2
RG Tron. Loss 1-2
Game 1 he had a hard time putting tron together, but had an eary O-Stone. I didn't want to over-extend into it, so I only put him down to 10 in the first few turns. He cracked it killing only two of my guys, and I was able to rebuild quickly, but then wormcoil followed by pyroclasm sealed my fate.
+4 Natural State -4 Leatherback Baloth. My thinking was that I needed a fast start, so trimming the top of the curve made sense. In hindsight, it should probably have been -2 Prey Upon, -2 Leatherback.
Game 2 he durdled around while I ran him over. Natural state on an expedition map was the key play of the game.
Game 3 I applied some early pressure, slowed down by a warping wail on my turn 2 strangleroot geist. He landed Karn on turn 4 followed by Ulamog on turn 5 and locked me out.
Round 3
Grishoalbrand. Win 2-0
Game 1 beat him down, he used shoal to gain 11, beat him down some more, GG.
+3 Tormod's Crypt, -2 Prey Upon, -1 Kalonian Tusker. Not sure if this is right... I know the crypt only stops Goryo's vengence, but it's definitely better than Prey Upon in the matchup. Might have been better to keep the Tusker in, though.
Game 2 he stalled me with an early pyroclasm, but I rebuilt, he gained 11 with shoal to survive what would have been a lethal attack. He through the breached Griselbrand, but couldn't put enough together, despite drawing 7 twice, and scooped. Lucky break for me.
Round 4
Merfolk. Win 2-1
Game 1 we both had sort of clunky starts. He didn't have vial, and his first three lands were minamo and two mutavaults. His spreading seas shut down my 2nd forest, and it took a few turns to draw the third, so my two-drops were stuck in hand. Eventually we both got things going (he used sea's claim on his own mutavault to get double-blue), and I got there first with a big Aspect of Hydra to close the game.
+2 Skylasher, +4 Nature's Claim. -2 Kalonian Tusker, -2 Leatherback Baloth, -2 Rancor
Game2: My initial seven had two Nature's Claim and a Prey Upon, but no creatures. Mull to 6 gives me a good curve of guys and two land, but none of my sideboard cards. He gets a fast start with vial, and runs me over with double lords followed by Master of Waves with about a million elementals.
Game 3: He mulls to 4, and I have enough pressure that he has to start chump blocking with lords. He makes it a game with a Master of Waves, but I'm able to close it out without too much trouble.
Round 5
Abzan Angel-Feeder. Lose 0-2
Game 1: I kill his early spike feeder with Prey upon, and beat him up with a militant and a pair of geists. He drops Worship, but doesn't have a board, so I think I have a chance. I'm not able to kill him before he drops and archangel and a couple of birds, so I scoop.
+4 Nature's claim (which now that I think about it was really dumb... doesn't hit worship), +2 Back to Nature. -2 Tusker, -2 Baloth, -2 Rancor
Game 2: He opens with mana dorks, I try kill one of them with prey upon, but he paths his own guy in response. He slams worship on turn 3, and I don't see a sideboard card before he assembles Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune.
I'm thinking of trimming one land, and I'm definitely going to replace some or all of my natural state with Unravel the AEther for a clean answer to wormcoil.
Very well stated Mogg Flunky. You wrote the entire post I was composing in my head as I read the thread, only more completely and more elegantly than I'd have managed it.
Wizards is gunshy about tanking the value of the secondary market, because they don't want to anger the player base and the want cards to continue to retain and grow in value. In this set they seem to be willing to reprint more valuable cards than they did in MM1 and 2, at least given what we know so far. I'm hopeful that they'll continue to ramp up their reprint policy and _gradually_ decrease the cost of building a competitive deck in non-rotating formats, while preserving most of the value of folks large collections.
Wizards really does care about this game and the people who play it. Chronicles was a huge debacle, and they are justifiably afraid of doing something similar. They swung the pendulum too far the other way, reprinting almost nothing, and now seem to be easing back into the business of reprinting valuable cards. The level of vitrol that is being thrown around here doesn't sit well with me. They have a tough job in working around their secondary market in a respectful way, and by my estimation they are handling it pretty well. I'd love a more agressive reprint policy, but I think we're just getting there slowly.
Tin foil hat time...
What's the oldest card in BBD's siege rhino/avacyn abzan deck from over the weekend?
Could he have an inside scoop that led him to test that list, and then he ended up running with it?
That really is a strange list... 20 land, no mana dorks, 7 3 drop creatures, and 4 CoCo seems really, really greedy to me. Also baffling to me that there are only 3 Strangleroot Geist; I'd max out on that guy before adding any of the other two drops (except maybe the 1st scooze).
I dig the flavor of the passing of the torch. From the old school, big nose, hand painted prodigal sorcerer to the slick, pretty boy reprint we're getting in Eternal Masters.
Still would have rather just had the old art in the new set, but I liked the story.
@DredgeOnat, you get to keep one of the legendary permenants, of your choice; the rest go to the graveyard.
This is useful for lines like the one CurdBros is describing, and also more generally to get an extra planeswalker or Nykthos activation on a single turn by playing a 2nd copy from your hand. There was an older, more restrictive legend rule, but I don't know exactly when the change happened.
I think it's really important to start reaping the benefits of our ramp package on turn 2... I won't go lower than 10 1-drops that get me to three mana on turn 2.
After elf and sprawl, birds or noble hierarch fill out the rest of those slots to give a consistent fast start.
Magus is cool, I actually hadn't seen the card before. Seems like a way to go from having a lot of mana available to _really_ a _lot_ of mana available. Might be a good fit in Tooth and Nail, where it's a race to 9, more so than traditional devotion where we really want to play three drop into 5 or 6 drop.
I agree you don't want to let them get to the point where the turns engine gets rolling, but I'm not sure what else to suggest. I don't have much experience with the matchup, but I would probably try bringing in my Plow Unders and all my primal commands to keep them from getting to 5 land.
I have a pretty similar list that I put together for almost no money on MTGO. I initially used Ulrich's Kindred but they underperformed... I cut them for more combat tricks. In particular, Uncaged Fury has stolen wins for me. I also have a random one-of Goldnight castigator that has actually been pretty good at getting the last few damage in over a stalled board. I'll post a list soon. Would love to hear how this goes for you.
Edited to add decklist. I think I'm going to cut the Titan's Strengths and Silverfur Partisan for three more Breakneck Riders. I'm not in love with the double red cost, but I need more guys who are just solid beaters. I think Neglected Heirloom is an easy 4-of; even in multiples it's great.
My sideboard right now is sort of just a mess of stuff I had from the intro-pack and drafts. Planning on thinking a bit more about it and shoring it up. Some radiant flames would definitely be good.
I've had pretty decent success with the deck in the Tournament Practice lobby of MTGO; I'm 2 and 2 in matches, but never felt like I didn't have a chance, and took at least one game each match. How has this been working for the rest of you guys?
Thanks for your thoughts on the burn matchup, Phaircaron, very helpful. I don't have any Scavenging oozes, so no main deck lifegain. That would probably help, but the notes on how you approach the match are an even bigger deal.
How should we approach the burn matchup? Racing doesn't seem to work, but if I try to hang back and trade/block I end up just getting burned out a little later. Is it just a bad matchup?
So, I just put together a super-budget stompy list and ran through an MTGO league. Here's my list:
4 Experiment One
4 Dryad Militant
4 Strangleroot Geist
2 Kalonian Tusker
4 Avatar of the Resolute
4 Leatherback Baloth
2 Dungrove Elder
4 Vines of Vastwood
4 Rancor
4 Aspect of Hydra
2 Prey Upon
Land
20 Forest
2 Treetop Village
4 Natural State
2 Back to Nature
4 Feed the Clan
2 Skylasher
3 Tormod's Crypt
Round 1
Mirror match :). Win 2-0
In the first game I just out-drew him. I had a great initial curve of experiment one, geist, avatar, avatar, and finished with kicked vines + prey upon to clear a blocker and swing in for lethal. He didn't really manage to get on the board.
I didn't bring anything in from the side.
Game 2 was a close race; I had militant + geist + avatar, he had two geists each wearing a rancor + leatherback. He had me on the ropes; I dropped all the way to 1, but topdecked the 4th forest that I needed to kill him from 10 with double kicked vines on an unblocked Strangleroot Geist.
Round 2
RG Tron. Loss 1-2
Game 1 he had a hard time putting tron together, but had an eary O-Stone. I didn't want to over-extend into it, so I only put him down to 10 in the first few turns. He cracked it killing only two of my guys, and I was able to rebuild quickly, but then wormcoil followed by pyroclasm sealed my fate.
+4 Natural State -4 Leatherback Baloth. My thinking was that I needed a fast start, so trimming the top of the curve made sense. In hindsight, it should probably have been -2 Prey Upon, -2 Leatherback.
Game 2 he durdled around while I ran him over. Natural state on an expedition map was the key play of the game.
Game 3 I applied some early pressure, slowed down by a warping wail on my turn 2 strangleroot geist. He landed Karn on turn 4 followed by Ulamog on turn 5 and locked me out.
Round 3
Grishoalbrand. Win 2-0
Game 1 beat him down, he used shoal to gain 11, beat him down some more, GG.
+3 Tormod's Crypt, -2 Prey Upon, -1 Kalonian Tusker. Not sure if this is right... I know the crypt only stops Goryo's vengence, but it's definitely better than Prey Upon in the matchup. Might have been better to keep the Tusker in, though.
Game 2 he stalled me with an early pyroclasm, but I rebuilt, he gained 11 with shoal to survive what would have been a lethal attack. He through the breached Griselbrand, but couldn't put enough together, despite drawing 7 twice, and scooped. Lucky break for me.
Round 4
Merfolk. Win 2-1
Game 1 we both had sort of clunky starts. He didn't have vial, and his first three lands were minamo and two mutavaults. His spreading seas shut down my 2nd forest, and it took a few turns to draw the third, so my two-drops were stuck in hand. Eventually we both got things going (he used sea's claim on his own mutavault to get double-blue), and I got there first with a big Aspect of Hydra to close the game.
+2 Skylasher, +4 Nature's Claim. -2 Kalonian Tusker, -2 Leatherback Baloth, -2 Rancor
Game2: My initial seven had two Nature's Claim and a Prey Upon, but no creatures. Mull to 6 gives me a good curve of guys and two land, but none of my sideboard cards. He gets a fast start with vial, and runs me over with double lords followed by Master of Waves with about a million elementals.
Game 3: He mulls to 4, and I have enough pressure that he has to start chump blocking with lords. He makes it a game with a Master of Waves, but I'm able to close it out without too much trouble.
Round 5
Abzan Angel-Feeder. Lose 0-2
Game 1: I kill his early spike feeder with Prey upon, and beat him up with a militant and a pair of geists. He drops Worship, but doesn't have a board, so I think I have a chance. I'm not able to kill him before he drops and archangel and a couple of birds, so I scoop.
+4 Nature's claim (which now that I think about it was really dumb... doesn't hit worship), +2 Back to Nature. -2 Tusker, -2 Baloth, -2 Rancor
Game 2: He opens with mana dorks, I try kill one of them with prey upon, but he paths his own guy in response. He slams worship on turn 3, and I don't see a sideboard card before he assembles Spike Feeder and Archangel of Thune.
I'm thinking of trimming one land, and I'm definitely going to replace some or all of my natural state with Unravel the AEther for a clean answer to wormcoil.
Wizards is gunshy about tanking the value of the secondary market, because they don't want to anger the player base and the want cards to continue to retain and grow in value. In this set they seem to be willing to reprint more valuable cards than they did in MM1 and 2, at least given what we know so far. I'm hopeful that they'll continue to ramp up their reprint policy and _gradually_ decrease the cost of building a competitive deck in non-rotating formats, while preserving most of the value of folks large collections.
Wizards really does care about this game and the people who play it. Chronicles was a huge debacle, and they are justifiably afraid of doing something similar. They swung the pendulum too far the other way, reprinting almost nothing, and now seem to be easing back into the business of reprinting valuable cards. The level of vitrol that is being thrown around here doesn't sit well with me. They have a tough job in working around their secondary market in a respectful way, and by my estimation they are handling it pretty well. I'd love a more agressive reprint policy, but I think we're just getting there slowly.
What's the oldest card in BBD's siege rhino/avacyn abzan deck from over the weekend?
Could he have an inside scoop that led him to test that list, and then he ended up running with it?
Still would have rather just had the old art in the new set, but I liked the story.
Probably just in the set to help durdley blue draft decks gum up the ground for a bit.
This is useful for lines like the one CurdBros is describing, and also more generally to get an extra planeswalker or Nykthos activation on a single turn by playing a 2nd copy from your hand. There was an older, more restrictive legend rule, but I don't know exactly when the change happened.
After elf and sprawl, birds or noble hierarch fill out the rest of those slots to give a consistent fast start.
Magus is cool, I actually hadn't seen the card before. Seems like a way to go from having a lot of mana available to _really_ a _lot_ of mana available. Might be a good fit in Tooth and Nail, where it's a race to 9, more so than traditional devotion where we really want to play three drop into 5 or 6 drop.
Chain Lightning
Swords to Plowshares
Craterhoof Behemoth
Bloodghast
Goblin Warchief
Not reprinted
Liliana of the Veil
Dark Depths
Deathrite Shaman
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Counterbalance
4 Geier Reach Bandit
4 Village Messenger
4 Lambholt Pacifist
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Breakneck Rider
2 Pack Guardian
1 Silverfur Partisan
1 Goldnight Castigator
4 Neglected Heirloom
4 Howlpack Resurgence
Removal and Tricks (9)
4 Moonlight Hunt
3 Uncaged Fury
2 Titan's Strength
1 Game Trail
11 Mountain
10 Forest
Edited to add decklist. I think I'm going to cut the Titan's Strengths and Silverfur Partisan for three more Breakneck Riders. I'm not in love with the double red cost, but I need more guys who are just solid beaters. I think Neglected Heirloom is an easy 4-of; even in multiples it's great.
My sideboard right now is sort of just a mess of stuff I had from the intro-pack and drafts. Planning on thinking a bit more about it and shoring it up. Some radiant flames would definitely be good.
I've had pretty decent success with the deck in the Tournament Practice lobby of MTGO; I'm 2 and 2 in matches, but never felt like I didn't have a chance, and took at least one game each match. How has this been working for the rest of you guys?