I'm frustrated with the deck right now. I went 4-1 and 3-2 in leagues yesterday, which netted me some tix. However, 2 of the games I lost were simply because the deck imploded. I lost a game against a jank Abzan Evolution deck where I had turns 2&3 ramp and then drew 8 lands in a row with no payoff card in hand... I lost against BW Eldrazi Taxes with an opening hand of 3 lands, 2 Explore, 1 Farseek. He had turn 2 Arbiter, and my 3rd land was a fetch, then I proceeded to go 7 more draw steps without a land. He had zero pressure other than the Arbiter, so ANYTHING would have won me the game. So frustrating to lose not because you got outplayed or because your deck is worse but only because your deck did not give you anything. I know this happens with every deck, but I feel it's worse with Titan Shift.
I don't know how I can improve this. My maindeck is already mono-green, so I don't waste slots for removal but rather 3 Courser and 4 Relic. I should have a steady stream of lands off the top and good topdecks!
I don't know what you're looking for here. It sounds like you won 7 games and lost 3, where two of those were to variance. No matter how much you change your maindeck around, any configuration you have will be suspect to drawing lands or spells for 5 turns because that is how the game is. You should focus on the things you can improve on like if you kept an optimal opening hand knowing what you know now (i.e. if I draw nothing but lands/spells, is this a keepable 7 against this deck?).
Hi everyone, sorry for the double post but I have an announcement. We're starting the process to update this deck's Primer. It looks like Rain is no longer an active user and some sections of the primer are either out of date or were never put in.
I have a primer I've been working on for a while that was meant as a blog post but I'd like to contribute it here, where I think it will be more useful. I ask this forum to please review the sections and comment on the Google Doc. I'm looking for additional input on the tips, FAQs, matchup section. Keep in mind that the intent is to keep a similar format to what we have. I'm also opening the Doc up to the Reddit community.
If you make a comment, keep in mind that it might/might not be incorporated and I might contact you to discuss it further. My intent is for this to be a large community effort and in the end, we have something we're all happy with.
EDIT: I intend on leaving this up for comment until 5/13/2017.
Depends on the Blood Moon deck. If you're playing against decks that side them in, then Nature's Claims and Reclamation Sage (to pact for) are good since you'll likely only need to 1-for-1. If you're playing against decks that play the full 4, you'll have to lean off Scapeshift+Valakut and play more of a "I'm going to midrange you out of the game" and focus on casting larger creatures (Titan, Baloth, and keep a few more in your board). You might also want to play 4 basic Forest in your manabase, as it opens up your options under Blood Moon and you'll have a more reasonable chance to draw one.
Started out 2-0 by having two really great matches against Affinity (both involved some tight play and a little bit of luck). I felt pretty hot going into Round 3, and was paired against Restore Balance with 4 Maindeck Leyline and Blood Moon, so I accepted the loss. Round 4 was paired against Sun and Moon, with 4 MD Leyline and Blood Moon. Game 1 in that match was a little demoralizing because I found and played all four maindeck Titans, on curve, only to have the first 3 wiped away each by a Wrath and the 4th one locked out by the new Gideon. Dropped at 2-2 so I would have time to make it downtown for the MLS match.
I realized I've played this maindeck setup (or close to it) for close to a year (since SCG and TCG regionals of last year) and it hasn't been bad for me.
I checked and my list didn't get posted to the MTG website. I did play DS Jund in that span, and the MD relics and Prismatic Omens helped a lot (basically won it for me). I used the cycling on Sweltering Sun way more than I though I would, and having (3):Draw a Card was super helpful in a handful of games where an Anger would have otherwise been dead (then there was one game where an Anger would have been better and I didn't have Relic at that moment).
I haven't gotten much facetime with Hornet Nest yet. Its been in my SB for the past few weeks, but the right situation to use it just hasn't come up (I'll bring it in for DS and Eldrazi).
Might play something similar to this at the classic on Sunday. I'm going to test some more leading up to then. If anyone else does and can offer some input, let me know before Sunday.
Ok fellas, the discussion is going nowhere fast. Some decks play Prismatic Omen, some don't. Whether the black splash needs it or not, it looks like its up in the air with some people playing it and some people not.
As you can see, there are plenty of examples for all 3 configurations (including mtgo lists). If you want to narrow down the time window, the search function is easy to use. To me, the question isn't "which one is better" but "which one in which meta". Omen also suits some people's play-styles better.
What new cards is everyone testing with? Since the new set is out on MTGO already, I started jamming some games with 3 MD Sweltering Sun, cutting KHE and Bolt for 3 Prismatic Omen and 4 Relic. I've had a few games with it so far (to success, they were matches where Relic would have been good anyway), but haven't seen Sun in any of them so I haven't been able to evaluate it.
I also had planned to test out some sideboard Glorious Ends though I'm less optimistic about those since its only for sure good when you can get a Scapeshift kill. Its probably best against other combo decks, which DS is keeping in check at the moment.
@berto1011 we're unfavored against most blends of DS. The formula of discard+early clock is how you beat decks like this one, so its just naturally good here.
Sorry for the double post, but it's been a full day so I feel like putting this in as an edit would be way less useful.
He brings up in there a question I have been wanting to discuss, how many basic forests should you run? I have never left four because I find it very important to be able to have access to 4 green under a blood moon. This let's me pay the upkeep cost on a Summoner's Pact and still cast one of our double green creatures. Or to cast an explore and draw into athrun, the last troll and leave up regenerate mana.n
I have seen a lot of you posting lists with 3 forests and I have seen a lot of lists elsewhere with 3 forests. I just can't do that, it feels like I'm just conceding to blood moon at that point and way too many people play blood moon in my area to just scoop to it.
Most people play 3. Two is the minimum, four is probably the maximum. There is no "technical" way to play under a Blood Moon, so you have to go with what you're comfortable with. You only need 1 green source i order to find the other (usually), and Titan can get your 3rd one. When you go up to 4, you have a little more insurance against Blood Moon (and if you are going to get in those situations you posted, then 4 could be right for you) but you also pull some consistency from Titan's kill and its ability to set up Valakut, since you're more likely to just draw those Forests.
Hey guys, what do you think about storm and adnauseam matchup?
Storm we can kill baral or electromancer.
We are a bye for Ad nauseum
unless you have chalice of the void in the side, ad nauseum cant play around this card if they didnt plan for it.
edit: beast within can destroys there lands and pentad prism so we can try to combo off before them, all in all its a bad MU
Another trick to remember is that if they are going the Phyrexian Unlife/Ad Nauseam route, if you can manage to store 4 Valakut triggers in a KHE or fetches or something, you can shoot all 4 at them once they go into negative life and do 12 Poison. That forces them to leave up an extra mana for an Angel's Grace. You can also Krosan Grip the Unlife and they lose on the spot. Unless you have Chalice, you can't interact with Angel's Grace which is a bummer.
@Ebur0n Rec Sage as a 1-of is a fine choice and a lot of decks here do it. I'm not sure how most people do the Claim/Sage split but I usually have 2 Claims/1 Sage.
@Sxn1se Great record! Yep, you'll refine your shuffling technique pretty quick. Just learn some simple shortcuts and you can cut 1-2 shuffles out of a game. Living End gets easier with experience. Of course they have good draws, but you can probably find room for another Relic. Tribe-Elder often pulls a lot of weight here because he gets to do double duty (block-sac-reanimate-block-sac reanimate). Reverberate is good, but you have to be careful to play around the cards in their deck that are actually good against use (Fulminate Mage, Brindle Boar) as they can just get an extra activation off it. Primal Command is good too, but you leave yourself open to Violent Outburst.
Round 1: 4 Color Chord (Kiki Chord); Take game 1 handily, but lose to Blood Moon games 2 and 3. I did not board in Nature's Claims game 3, as BM would be the only target. I was able to force him off colors by Bolting his mana dorks (forcing a Chord=1 multiple times), but he had a Path for every one of my threats so I eventually lost. I think I also made an error in Game 2 by Angering away my Tireless Tracker when it didn't look like he had a way to deal with it (and I could have used it to dig for Titans). 0-1
Round 2: Naya Burn; He takes game 1, but its not very convincing. I mulligan'd to 5 and kept a super slow hand, but was still a turn off from taking the game. I bring in Baloths, Angers, and Command. Game 2 he dumps his hand onto the board T3 and I untap and Anger it away. Game 3, I started to draw poorly but lucked out as I was able to resolve a Primal Command (he was holding up a card which was Deflecting Palm). He was at a low enough life that the palm didn't matter. 1-1
Round 3: Infect; This is my friend who I drove over with, so neither of us are happy to be paired. My sideboard is a lot softer to Infect as I hadn't prepared for it. I mulligan to 6 but draw Bolt-Bolt which takes care of two infect creatures. Normally that would be awesome, but he has 3. Can't race the 3rd one and we go to game 2. I have to mulligan to 6 again (in retrospect, Claim/Steve/Lands might have been ok) and keep SFT/EE/Lands, scrying a land to the bottom. I get beat down by Inkmoth, which is pretty good against EE. 1-2.
Round 4: Junk Midrange; Game1, he has all the discard in the world but I really only kept lands. He eventually draws into a Goyf to add a clock and I draw into a Titan. Game 2, I kept a hand with Scapeshift and drew another. He made me discard one of them then Surgically Extracted it. He had two lingering souls on board, but that was it so I play Baloth and make some attacks to take off his clock which he hasn't added to (I think he kept a land light hand because of extraction). I find a Titan and we end the game. 2-2
Round 5: BUG Control; I call this control, but I'm not 100% on what it was. There were Cryptics, so I guess that counts. Had Tasigurs, Liliana the Last Hope, Though Scour, Fatal Push, Bow of Nylea?. More or less, the kind of deck this one eats alive. Game 1 went in my favor. I expected a grindier game 2, so I bring in Tracker and Baloths. I get tracker out early and he has 0 ways to deal with it. Valakut comes online and shoots down defending Tasigurs and Lilis. I even missed some tracker triggers (doh!) but it was still way too much for him to deal with. 3-2.
Round 6: Mardu Nahiri; Game 1 is very favorable, as Lighting Helix is the only way to interact with what I'm doing. Game 2, he sides in the normal (Slaughter Games, Extractions, Crumble, no Leylines though). I keep a hand with Valakut but choose to sandbag it until I can get two on board at one (as he was just playing lands and passing, stuck on 3). I draw the lands and Titan to do so, but get greedy and decide to only grab 1 Valakut instead of two in order to take out a Blade Splicer/Token he managed to play. He had a Ghost Quarter on board (tapped), so I knew if I only grabbed two, he could Crumble one and GQ the other, but did it anyway and that's what happened but not after putting a dent in his life total. I found another Titan and he couldn't find a path in time, so gg. 4-2.
My breakers were pretty good (both people I lost to were in Top8), but I ended at 9th. That's what I get for losing to Kiki Chord.
Death's Shadow: -4 Bolt -2 Anger, +3 Baloth +1 P&K, +1 Thragtusk, and maybe whatever that one card is. Sudden shock would be fine I think since they would bring in Fulminators.
Angers do nothing here. Lightning Bolt does next to nothing. It would seem unlikely that they'd bring in Lingering Souls. Played the MU a few times, you want to keep hands kinda like you would in Jund where some of your pieces are redundant just so you stay on clock. Your sideboard is just gonna take out your useless cards and bring in stuff that buys time. You can't play around Temur Battle Rage, so I wouldn't even worry about the trample.
If you win, hope you play Merfolk. Your 75 is much better equipped to deal with it. Just be liberal about grabbing green sources as their early Seas will likely try and cut you off those. Just bring in your Anger and a Nature's Claim (Grudge if you see Spellskite, Sudden Shock too if you have it). Take out some ramp, maybe KHE on the draw.
Burn is a lot harder, I have no tips here. Side in your stuff that gains life and hope that it doesn't get skullcracked.
What is everyone's list going into TCG States this weekend and what are you preparing for?
I am expecting some form of the Death's Shadow deck, Jund, Junk Company, Tron (RG and Eldrazi), and Burn decks. I've had semi-success using Primal Command against the DS decks but it hardly feels like a SB card.
I run that split (lacking the Catacombs). Pithing Needle is a little narrow, but Surgical Extraction comes up a lot. I agree, its free for us to do and there is essentially no downside.
I don't know what you're looking for here. It sounds like you won 7 games and lost 3, where two of those were to variance. No matter how much you change your maindeck around, any configuration you have will be suspect to drawing lands or spells for 5 turns because that is how the game is. You should focus on the things you can improve on like if you kept an optimal opening hand knowing what you know now (i.e. if I draw nothing but lands/spells, is this a keepable 7 against this deck?).
I have a primer I've been working on for a while that was meant as a blog post but I'd like to contribute it here, where I think it will be more useful. I ask this forum to please review the sections and comment on the Google Doc. I'm looking for additional input on the tips, FAQs, matchup section. Keep in mind that the intent is to keep a similar format to what we have. I'm also opening the Doc up to the Reddit community.
Link to Google Doc
If you make a comment, keep in mind that it might/might not be incorporated and I might contact you to discuss it further. My intent is for this to be a large community effort and in the end, we have something we're all happy with.
EDIT: I intend on leaving this up for comment until 5/13/2017.
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Prismatic Omen
3 Khalni Heart Expedition
2 Explore
2 Farseek
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Sudden Shock
3 Anger of the Gods
Started out 2-0 by having two really great matches against Affinity (both involved some tight play and a little bit of luck). I felt pretty hot going into Round 3, and was paired against Restore Balance with 4 Maindeck Leyline and Blood Moon, so I accepted the loss. Round 4 was paired against Sun and Moon, with 4 MD Leyline and Blood Moon. Game 1 in that match was a little demoralizing because I found and played all four maindeck Titans, on curve, only to have the first 3 wiped away each by a Wrath and the 4th one locked out by the new Gideon. Dropped at 2-2 so I would have time to make it downtown for the MLS match.
I realized I've played this maindeck setup (or close to it) for close to a year (since SCG and TCG regionals of last year) and it hasn't been bad for me.
4 Sakura Tribe Elder
4 Primeval Titan
Lands
4 Valakut
7 Mountains
3 Forest
3 Stomping Ground
3 Cinder Glade
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scapeshift
2 Summoner Pact
4 Search for Tomorrow
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Prismatic Omen
3 Sweltering Sun
3 Explore
2 Farseek
2 Primal Command
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Anger of the Gods
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Tireless Tracker
2 Nature's Claim
2 Sudden Shock
1 Hornet Nest
1 Ancient Grudge
I checked and my list didn't get posted to the MTG website. I did play DS Jund in that span, and the MD relics and Prismatic Omens helped a lot (basically won it for me). I used the cycling on Sweltering Sun way more than I though I would, and having (3):Draw a Card was super helpful in a handful of games where an Anger would have otherwise been dead (then there was one game where an Anger would have been better and I didn't have Relic at that moment).
I haven't gotten much facetime with Hornet Nest yet. Its been in my SB for the past few weeks, but the right situation to use it just hasn't come up (I'll bring it in for DS and Eldrazi).
Might play something similar to this at the classic on Sunday. I'm going to test some more leading up to then. If anyone else does and can offer some input, let me know before Sunday.
Decks from mid-2015 to now with Prismatic Omen
Decks from mid-2015 to now without Prismatic Omen
Decks from mid-2015 to now without Omen or KHE
As you can see, there are plenty of examples for all 3 configurations (including mtgo lists). If you want to narrow down the time window, the search function is easy to use. To me, the question isn't "which one is better" but "which one in which meta". Omen also suits some people's play-styles better.
I also had planned to test out some sideboard Glorious Ends though I'm less optimistic about those since its only for sure good when you can get a Scapeshift kill. Its probably best against other combo decks, which DS is keeping in check at the moment.
@berto1011 we're unfavored against most blends of DS. The formula of discard+early clock is how you beat decks like this one, so its just naturally good here.
Most people play 3. Two is the minimum, four is probably the maximum. There is no "technical" way to play under a Blood Moon, so you have to go with what you're comfortable with. You only need 1 green source i order to find the other (usually), and Titan can get your 3rd one. When you go up to 4, you have a little more insurance against Blood Moon (and if you are going to get in those situations you posted, then 4 could be right for you) but you also pull some consistency from Titan's kill and its ability to set up Valakut, since you're more likely to just draw those Forests.
I think this could have a home in our deck, but I'm not sure how to use it yet. Something that is considered a Mountain is hard to ignore.
Another trick to remember is that if they are going the Phyrexian Unlife/Ad Nauseam route, if you can manage to store 4 Valakut triggers in a KHE or fetches or something, you can shoot all 4 at them once they go into negative life and do 12 Poison. That forces them to leave up an extra mana for an Angel's Grace. You can also Krosan Grip the Unlife and they lose on the spot. Unless you have Chalice, you can't interact with Angel's Grace which is a bummer.
@Sxn1se Great record! Yep, you'll refine your shuffling technique pretty quick. Just learn some simple shortcuts and you can cut 1-2 shuffles out of a game. Living End gets easier with experience. Of course they have good draws, but you can probably find room for another Relic. Tribe-Elder often pulls a lot of weight here because he gets to do double duty (block-sac-reanimate-block-sac reanimate). Reverberate is good, but you have to be careful to play around the cards in their deck that are actually good against use (Fulminate Mage, Brindle Boar) as they can just get an extra activation off it. Primal Command is good too, but you leave yourself open to Violent Outburst.
3 Cinder Glade
3 Forest
2 Misty Rainforest
7 Mountain
3 Stomping Ground
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
1 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
Spells
2 Explore
2 Farseek
3 Khalni Heart Expedition
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Prismatic Omen
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Scapeshift
4 Search for Tomorrow
2 Summoner's Pact
4 Primeval Titan
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Ancient Grudge
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Nature's Claim
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Primal Command
1 Tireless Tracker
Round 1: 4 Color Chord (Kiki Chord); Take game 1 handily, but lose to Blood Moon games 2 and 3. I did not board in Nature's Claims game 3, as BM would be the only target. I was able to force him off colors by Bolting his mana dorks (forcing a Chord=1 multiple times), but he had a Path for every one of my threats so I eventually lost. I think I also made an error in Game 2 by Angering away my Tireless Tracker when it didn't look like he had a way to deal with it (and I could have used it to dig for Titans). 0-1
Round 2: Naya Burn; He takes game 1, but its not very convincing. I mulligan'd to 5 and kept a super slow hand, but was still a turn off from taking the game. I bring in Baloths, Angers, and Command. Game 2 he dumps his hand onto the board T3 and I untap and Anger it away. Game 3, I started to draw poorly but lucked out as I was able to resolve a Primal Command (he was holding up a card which was Deflecting Palm). He was at a low enough life that the palm didn't matter. 1-1
Round 3: Infect; This is my friend who I drove over with, so neither of us are happy to be paired. My sideboard is a lot softer to Infect as I hadn't prepared for it. I mulligan to 6 but draw Bolt-Bolt which takes care of two infect creatures. Normally that would be awesome, but he has 3. Can't race the 3rd one and we go to game 2. I have to mulligan to 6 again (in retrospect, Claim/Steve/Lands might have been ok) and keep SFT/EE/Lands, scrying a land to the bottom. I get beat down by Inkmoth, which is pretty good against EE. 1-2.
Round 4: Junk Midrange; Game1, he has all the discard in the world but I really only kept lands. He eventually draws into a Goyf to add a clock and I draw into a Titan. Game 2, I kept a hand with Scapeshift and drew another. He made me discard one of them then Surgically Extracted it. He had two lingering souls on board, but that was it so I play Baloth and make some attacks to take off his clock which he hasn't added to (I think he kept a land light hand because of extraction). I find a Titan and we end the game. 2-2
Round 5: BUG Control; I call this control, but I'm not 100% on what it was. There were Cryptics, so I guess that counts. Had Tasigurs, Liliana the Last Hope, Though Scour, Fatal Push, Bow of Nylea?. More or less, the kind of deck this one eats alive. Game 1 went in my favor. I expected a grindier game 2, so I bring in Tracker and Baloths. I get tracker out early and he has 0 ways to deal with it. Valakut comes online and shoots down defending Tasigurs and Lilis. I even missed some tracker triggers (doh!) but it was still way too much for him to deal with. 3-2.
Round 6: Mardu Nahiri; Game 1 is very favorable, as Lighting Helix is the only way to interact with what I'm doing. Game 2, he sides in the normal (Slaughter Games, Extractions, Crumble, no Leylines though). I keep a hand with Valakut but choose to sandbag it until I can get two on board at one (as he was just playing lands and passing, stuck on 3). I draw the lands and Titan to do so, but get greedy and decide to only grab 1 Valakut instead of two in order to take out a Blade Splicer/Token he managed to play. He had a Ghost Quarter on board (tapped), so I knew if I only grabbed two, he could Crumble one and GQ the other, but did it anyway and that's what happened but not after putting a dent in his life total. I found another Titan and he couldn't find a path in time, so gg. 4-2.
My breakers were pretty good (both people I lost to were in Top8), but I ended at 9th. That's what I get for losing to Kiki Chord.
Death's Shadow: -4 Bolt -2 Anger, +3 Baloth +1 P&K, +1 Thragtusk, and maybe whatever that one card is. Sudden shock would be fine I think since they would bring in Fulminators.
Angers do nothing here. Lightning Bolt does next to nothing. It would seem unlikely that they'd bring in Lingering Souls. Played the MU a few times, you want to keep hands kinda like you would in Jund where some of your pieces are redundant just so you stay on clock. Your sideboard is just gonna take out your useless cards and bring in stuff that buys time. You can't play around Temur Battle Rage, so I wouldn't even worry about the trample.
If you win, hope you play Merfolk. Your 75 is much better equipped to deal with it. Just be liberal about grabbing green sources as their early Seas will likely try and cut you off those. Just bring in your Anger and a Nature's Claim (Grudge if you see Spellskite, Sudden Shock too if you have it). Take out some ramp, maybe KHE on the draw.
Burn is a lot harder, I have no tips here. Side in your stuff that gains life and hope that it doesn't get skullcracked.
Good luck!
I am expecting some form of the Death's Shadow deck, Jund, Junk Company, Tron (RG and Eldrazi), and Burn decks. I've had semi-success using Primal Command against the DS decks but it hardly feels like a SB card.
I run that split (lacking the Catacombs). Pithing Needle is a little narrow, but Surgical Extraction comes up a lot. I agree, its free for us to do and there is essentially no downside.