How can you have a debate about two sets when people post specific examples and you ignore them for your one example.
During their time, ravnica was a much more fun environment, but mirrodin block was a hugely broken standard. Cards were banned left and right because of their interaction between cards in the set that made them so powerful, not just cards outside of the set.
Your example of saying cards in the block were broken because of cards outside of the block is going against what you were stating previously about only looking at the cards in the set. You are blatantly looking at cards outside of the set to talk about the cards. If you stay inside the set you will see that those cards are just as powerful if not more because of the limitations.
Only got to page 2, and saw a lot of "what does this have to do with slaughter or games???"
Here is the answer I have come up with. The slaughter part of this card is where they gut a piece of you out, the games part is their joy in choosing which part to gut.
The unleash mechanic is hard to talk about with only two previews of the ability available, but as it stands, it seems to be purely a suicide ability. If they give rakdos cards a way to benefit more from the ability then it might be worth trying but it seems to much of a downside so far.
The ability allows you to only ever get one +1/+1 counter from it, not an X which would have made it a better ability, plus the ability states that if the creature has a +1/+1 counter on it, it can't block so it is possible that you choose not to have the counter on to block with it, just for them to put a counter on it, effectively removing your blocker.
Until we get the card that interacts with unleash or a card that says "If unleashed, you get benefit ?", I think it will be a scorned ability because of its drawback.
Following the one cost card for effect seems like the likely route that will be taken, but here are the cards that I came up with, just from personal taste.
Golgari - Return target creature from your graveyard to your hand; Search your library for a basic land cards and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library; Target creature gets +3/-3 until end of turn.
Selesnya - Destroy target enchantment; You gain 2 life; Populate.
Azorius - Target creature gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn; Draw a card; Tap all creatures.
Rakdos - Each player sacrifices a creature; 2 damage to each player; Each player discards a card at random.
Gruul - Each player sacrifices a land; Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
Orzhov - Tap target creature; Target player discards a card; Remove target players graveyard from the game.
Boros - Target creature gains first strike until end of turn; Target creature gains vigilance until end of turn; ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player and you gain 1 life.
Simic - Return target creature to its owner's hand; Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature; Counter target activated ability.
Dimir - Remove a card of your choice from target players graveyard; Counter target creature spell unless its controller pays 2; Target player puts the top 5 cards of his or her library into their graveyard.
I'm just not a fan of counterspells in standard right now, so I compensate by using more sweepers and spot removal. 8 ways to ramp, one of which is a speedbump.
The problem with this is that they printed Magmaquake which makes counters mandatory for a deck like this so they don't just sweep up your board.
As for the Sphere of the Suns, it is early ramp but I don't like wasting a spot on a card that is only good for a little bit then done for. I would rather keep control until I cast a Gilded Lotus, after which I can still can a kill spell or counter.
I remember back in the day when Super Friends was a power house, people tried to make Legion of Doom as a counter, but at the time it was not viable. With the return of Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker I felt like giving it a try.
I have not tested this deck or built it yet, this is merely a deck list built by looking through cards on the gatherer. I just wanted to know what people think of the list and any ideas on what to change.
Here are all the cards, after searching, that I had been looking at for putting into the deck.
Archaeomancer - This card has its obvious uses in a spell heavy deck by allowing you to reuse your spells without losing them to flash. Augur of Bolas - Another creature that works well with a spell heavy deck, allows you to filter through a little of your deck and get a spell with it. Bloodgift Demon - Extra draw help this deck and a big creature attached help as well. Charmbreaker Devils - Although random at which spells you get back it makes for a good attacker if you play a little more offensively. Dark Imposter - Its ability is expensive, but a reusable remove from game effect can be very useful if you are running low on removal. Delver of Secrets - If you are playing a spell heavy deck and wish to be agro, this guy has proven himself to be a little power house for 1 mana. Disciple of Bolas - This guy works good in both versions of the deck as you can sac any creature to gain a little life and draw a few cards. Entomber Exarch - In creature decks, having a way to return your creatures is a good idea, staple on a discard effect and you are looking better off. Fog Bank - Stall is the main strategy of this deck and a creature that wont die to combat will help give you a few turns. Harvester of Souls - With a high removal deck this guy can be good, drawing to replace any removal you use. Lunar Mystic - Another card that helps to replace cards after being used. Massacre Wurm - Another possible win condition by having your opponent lose life for each creature you kill. Mindclaw Shaman - When playing a deck that relies on its spell base, this guy helps mess up their hand and give you a peak at what they have. Phyrexian Metamorph - If you are playing a deck with no big hitters, this guy allows you to have one if your opponent does. Reassembling Skeleton - Another stall idea, a 1/1 that can come back when you need it or have the mana is useful, even if it comes back tapped. Snapcaster Mage - He has proven himself time after time that in spell heavy decks, he is just better than most cards for getting in that surprise creature and spell. Solemn Simulacrum - This is one of the best cards to try and mana fix your lands right now, with a bonus to draw when he dies make him a great choice. Stormtide Leviathan - Although expensive, this guy can lock down games himself, allowing only flyers and island walk to attack. Talrand, Sky Summoner - I added this guy because getting a free 2/2 flyer whenever I cast a spell allows me to need less creatures in the deck. Thundermaw Hellkite - It seems this dragon has made himself a name as a game finisher, allowing you to tap other creatures and attack for 5 can help even this deck get that last damage through. Vexing Devil - In my opinion, "the" best 1 drop creature ever printed, allowing for early damage or a good creature to try and get a win. Zealous Conscripts - I have seen this guy played and was impressed with how powerful he can be.
Altar's Reap - Currently the main idea is to draw into your planeswalkers, so sacrificing a creature doesn't seem like a bad idea for 2 cards. Artillerize - This one I don't like as much, but I did consider it. It allows for an additional 5 damage if need be at the price of a creature. Brimstone Volley - Better choice for trying to get that 5 damage. Cackling Counterpart - Clone was always a good card, even if its only for your creatures, and having it at instant speed and twice for one card seems pretty good. Desperate Ravings - Draw but at the price of a random discard. Dismember - Good removal with the choice to make it cost only 1. Dissipate - Better than Cancel while at the same cost and prevents them from Snapcastering it. Doom Blade - Standard black kill spell. Flashfreeze - If playing against that faster green or red decks, this helps to stop them, without the chance of paying 3. Forbidden Alchemy - Although you lose a few cards to the graveyard, this is a good card for digging through your deck to get your planeswalkers.
I am starting this thread to discuss cards that might have an impact on the Heartless Lich arch-type should it have a chance at being tier.
Their is another thread here [deck][Developing Speculative] Heartless Lich (Grixis) to build decks based on personal opinion on which cards are good. I would like this thread to be for discussing available cards and cards to be previewed later.
These are the current cards that I find that are possible cards for adding to the deck.
Blue Sun's Zenith - This is unlikely to be played in this deck due to the triple blue. Consecrated Sphinx - Sphinx seems like a possible choice. The deck needs more body to block, and even with heartless out it is still a 3/5. Gitaxian Probe - This is possibly a good choice as it draws a card and allows you to see your opponents hand when you want to go off. Jace, Memory Adept - In this deck, you want to draw off of him and paying 5 mana for a free draw engine is over the curve, but a possible choice if you wish for a more stalled tactic. Ponder - A go to draw card once again. Secrets of the Dead - This one is interesting, but only good after you have already started to combo off, but once you combo it gets you to your wincon. Think Twice - Instant draw with flashback might be good, but probably offed for better draw. Thought Scour - If going for the mill route, this is a good 1 cost spell, but not really good for this deck. Visions of Beyond - Again, another card good for mill, not so much for this deck.
Desperate Ravings - compared to Faithless looting, this is instant speed, but have the chance of losing a piece of combo. Faithless Looting - Excellent draw spell in red and allows you to chose the discard which is uncommon for red draw spells. Molten Psyche - This is an interesting card, when you combo off or before hand, allows you to trade a bad hand for possibly better cards or even combo pieces.
Jar of Eyeballs - Another card useful after combo has gone off, allows you to search deck for wincon. Nihil Spellbomb - Does 2 things in one, removes their graveyard if any, and draws a card. More sideboard than mainboard. Solemn Simulacrum - Decent card, fetches a land and draws a card when it dies. Possible a idea. If two Heartless are out, then it becomes 1 fetch a land, draw a card.
Birthing Pod - Although off color, if you want to run a lower amount of Havengul and more 4 cost creatures, this is a good way to pull him out of your deck.
Noxious Revival - Instant speed, get something back or save it.
Entomber Exarch - Decent 4 cost creature to get back your Havengul if they kill him off. Postmortem Lunge - Get back your Havengul for that 1 turn needed for combo. Unburial Rites - Unfortunately zombify is not back yet so we would have to deal with this. Doubtful it will see play.
Havengul Fengraf - Although it brings a creature back at random, it is unlikely you will have to many creatures in your graveyard. Nim Deathmantle - Once on the field, as long as you have 4 mana, it makes killing Havengul very hard to do. Grimoire of the Dead - Will take some time to due, but will get everything back as long as you still have your graveyard.
Burning Vengeance - Decent idea, if you can get it out before they can deal with it, makes it more effect than Devil's Play. Devil's Play - Deals X damage spell with flashback in case they counter it. Increasing Confusion - Mill X card, harder to due turn three victory, but still a wincon. Perilous Myr - It will not win right away, but quickly peck away at them until they deal with Havengul.
People think this deck is dead due to Grafdiggers Cage but there is a small variety of answers to that card, and since it will be a sideboard card if anything, you only need to sideboard the answers. Here are a few answers to it:
This thread is meant for deck building, but to discuss cards that could fit in the deck, then figure out which ones are the best for this deck. There are other cards yet previewed and cards I didn't notice, please discuss those if they might be useful to the deck as well.
I have always been a fan of playing tokens, even before Doubling Season was around and to now see a new, so called "Fixed", version of Dub in Parallel Lives and have a new hope for a good token archetype to be built and possibly be competitive in high level tournaments.
With a quick search through the Gatherer for "Creature token" I have found that there are quite a few token producing options available right now. I listed the cards below.
With those cards in mind, the most beneficial cards that I can see right now for tokens are: (These are only from ISD, if you have any more please let me know)
Since all colors have a little something that can be used in this deck, I fell that their are many ways for this deck to be mad and enjoyed, from Tournament to budget.
So far the focus for tokens have been on bant colors, which seems like it may be the best options, but I would like to diversify and see what all the options may be.
"Very sorry for starting this post without any deck lists but I don't have the time right now to post any more."
-Green_Man_2000
Honestly, they should just reprint Stag. It's an effective, hard to answer creature that isn't overpowered, even at rare.
If you recall the time at which Stag was legal, you would know that it was very powerful, played in most decks, and the reason people rotated away from black for a while.
I would love to see Stag come back for sure, but just like then, I see him causing a lot more grief that he should. Black has better answers against it this time around like Obliterator, but with the loss of JTMS, people are already saying they don't want to play blue any more, and with a powerful creature like this in standard, and with no possible answers being made, people would probably do the same thing they did back then, rotate away from a color to something else.
Gaean Gladekeeper 1G
Creature - Elf Warrior
~ cannot be countered.
Whenever your opponent casts a blue or black spell, if ~ is in your graveyard you may return it to the battlefield. "Nature is eternal and implacable. She cannot be stopped by the machinations of men."
2/2
I like this idea, but the first thing that would have to change about this is the creature type. They couldn't leave it as an elf because that is to powerful tribal-wise. Secondly, I am not so sure they would allow an effect like this to be on an uncommon. Lastly, I don't think this would fit the cycles ground as a hoser, since it doesn't really do anything against their color like the other ones, and a reuseable creature for every spell they play just seems to good. I think something like this would see a better chance:
Primordial Ooze GG
Creature - Ooze
Whenever your opponent casts a blue or black spell, if Primordial Ooze is in your graveyard you may return it to its owner's hand. "In the presence of unnatural magic, the ooze begins to stir with anticipation."
2/1
The closest thing they did right for this was Great Stable Stag which even they knew to make a rare, but their lies the problem.
Green's best way for a hoser is a creature, but anything on a creature, that is efficient, would be bumped up to rare. Anything on a spell, without a cantrip, will just be bad, and if it did cantrip, people would only use it for the cantrip. Like this one:
IHBAB G
Instant
Target creature gains protect from Blue and Black until end of turn.
Draw a card.
My idea, even though I don't think it is all that good as a core set hoser, would be something that allowed green to slow down blue and black spells and try to beat them in the race. Something like:
IHBAB GG
Instant
Opponent's can't play Blue or Black spells until end of turn.
Abilities of Blue or Black permanents can't be activated this turn.
1G Instant
Destroy target blue or black noncreature permanent.
Past seeing play in legacy, I don't think this would have much of an impact on anything.
As it stands right now, blue and black rarely ever have a noncreature permanent, past planeswalkers, that stay on the board. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything being played that would really care if this was even main board. This is including that fact that JTMS was banned, or it would be seeing play.
No way u can get the 9 mana to use gen wave effectively
I played FNM last Friday to see what decks were being played now that JTMS is gone, and test my Green Homebrew Beats.
Out of 4 rounds and 2 top 8 rounds, I was able to use Green Sun's Zenith to fetch my Palakka Wurm out of my deck every game with mana to spare, So I don't see if being impossible to do this. You just have to get to that point in order to do it.
In case you wish to know, instead of thinking I was playing against bad decks, I played against: M-B Vamps, Caw-Blade 2.0 or "Fail-Blade" as he called it, Red Deck Wins, M-W Tempered Steel, White Weenie, and Red Goblins.
Let me start out by saying, if you have seen the B/U/G Proliferate/Infect thread and are questioning why I created this, it is because the other forum specifies that it has a Proliferate theme while this thread and my build do not. So I believe I am in the right to make a new thread.
After taking a close look at the U/B Poison aggro/midrange thread I have to say that I really feel that blue is not the good choice to go as the second main color. After looking at almost all the decks, I noticed that all that blue has been added for is: Distortion Strike, Sleep, Renegade Doppleganger, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and counters. While I do see these cards as good, I don't see any of those cards really helping you to win the game except for Distortioin Strike (Yes, I don't think Jace, TMS helps this deck that greatly, Venser would be better). I believe that green offers a better variety of cards to help push the Poison deck further than blue could, it offers pumps, ways to protect your creatures, and a few more Infect creatures to run at your disposal.
Green can server the same purpose as blue can in the other decks that I have seen, but do so even better. Here are my reasons:
1) Blue has the ability to counter spells to protect your creatures from being countered or dieing to spot removal, and Green does this just as good as blue, if not better, in this deck via: Autumn's Veil, and Vines of Vastwood. I question why play a 1 time counter spell when you can protect your creatures for a whole turn from being countered or targeted by spot removal, or even making your creature untargetabe by your opponents removal and getting a pump with it. With those two choices, your Mana Leak is not better than my Autumn's Veil.
2) Jace, the Mind Sculptor, while I will not deny the power this card hold, I have to ask 1 question, what does he really do for the deck? You might say Brainstorm is what he does, but why waste a slot to add 1 card to your hand instead of continuing to put the pressure on your opponent which is what this deck needs to do. You might say Unsummon, which goes to, why did you pay 2UU to play a U costed spell. I just don't see the power of Jace working for this deck because he wants you to sit and protect him while you should be trying to win.
3) Proliferate effects. While I wont say Thrummingbird is bad or that Steady Progress is good, why play a spell that at best only offers you the addition of just one poison counter when you can play a real creature with infect to help put on a few more?
4) Distortion Strike is really the only thing that Green just cannot out due of blue, but with Misty Rainforest and green ramp, I don't see why throwing in 2 or 3 Islands to make this playable would be so hard. (Sorcery speed Ramp, Instant speed Ramp)
Now lets take a look at possible green cards of use:
Asceticism - This card does two very important things that can make a world of difference in a game and semi-eliminates two of this decks greatest problems, Spot removal and Mass Kill. This card gives all your creatures Troll shroud so that you can still pump them while at the same time your opponent can't directly kill them. It also gives you a free-form regen ability that will help to save 1 or 2 creatures from a DoJ or mass burn spells that would force you to have to build up again.
Bear Umbra - This offers 3 great effects that can all help you in a game. 1) Pumps your creature to help prevent death via Lightning Bolt 2) Totem armor protects your creature from death one time which could make a game difference if they can't stop that one creature 3) Untaps your lands when you attack so you can play pump spells, play another creature, or just save it if you want. All around this card has its uses.
Beastmaster Ascension - Straight forward, this card makes your creatures BIG. Although slow if you are able to get it started, it will force the game to a very quick end.
Blight Mamba - Another infect creature is always good and this guy may be just what we need after Alara rotates. With the lost of most 'remove from the game' cards that white had, people will begin to play with more 'destroy target creature' cards which will make a creature with regen on it possibly that much more of a threat as it is not as easily dealt with.
Carrion Call - While we all know that getting a few dudes with power can be game winning via: Spectral Procession and Join the Ranks, I am not sold on this card. It could prove to be a powerhouse in the poison community, which is why I am adding it here, so I feel that it should get some consideration, two 1/1 infect creatures at the end of your turn for pseudo haste or surprise blockers seems like potential.
Cystbearer - While not liking this card personally, people are willing to play small creatures that benefit to there goal, and at a cost of 2G, this is the closest thing in infect, other than power 3, that can survive burn (Any burn other than Lightning Bolt and Searing Blaze). So that might attract this to some sideboards, or not.
Garruk Wildspeaker - This seems to me like an almost auto-include in any poison deck. The ability to overrun the turn after he comes out makes him an instant threat that has to be dealt with.
Giant Growth - Although being in the background for so long, it looks like Giant Growth may once again appear as a good card for poison decks. The ability to throw in 3 additional poison counters when your creature gets threw can quickly change the game from lost to won.
Gigantiform - Once again we come to the fact that spot removal is losing a lot of power so this card seems like it should be given a good look at. Changing your 1/1 flying Plague Stinger into an 8/8 flying trampler will quickly make your opponent start sweating in fear, and if you have the mana, you can pay the kicker and really make them cry.
Leyline of Vitality - As everyone knows, infect creatures have no toughness and die to everything. Then this is a possible solution, whether paying 2GG or playing it for free, this card will pump your little guys into some little tough bad guys that laugh to a single Lightning Bolt.
Might of Oaks - Every once in a while your little 1/1 will get threw, and this card is just seems like that big surprise they just wont survive. +7/+7 at instant speed is something that can't be ignored in a deck that wants to do only 10 damage to your opponent.
Overwhelming Stampede - Although a good card, not sure how it would play in a deck filled with little creatures. Mass pump is good, but I am not sure how this would work in this deck. Maybe after a Giant Growth to get some good potential.
Putrefax - This card can easily be considered the third most powerful Infect creature, so why not run it? Its sad to sac it at end of turn, but 5 trample damage will help make your game move along.
Strength of the Tajuru - We all know that this deck wants its creatures to become big and strong, and this seems like a good card to do so. This cards seems like the perfect pump spell for this deck as the pump will stay on your creature in the form of +1/+1 counters and you have the option to give the counters to more than one creature.
Tangle Angler - Lure effects, to me, have never been that appealing, but being able to selectively weaken a creature seems like a good thing. Also being able to get that creature that's stopping you from winning out of the way also seems like a reason to at least look at the card.
Tel-Jilad Fallen - I can't say for sure how popular artifact decks become, if at all, but this guy would just dominate those decks. As for now I say meh to this guy, but we will have to wait and see if it turns out if he will be good or not.
Untamed Might - I feel that this card is not as good as Strength, but it does have the benefit of costing G less. Just another pump X spell to consider when building your deck.
Withstand Death - Your creature dieing is always a problem and this guy fixes that without the regen clause. Seems like an interesting card and at just G seems like a card that might make the cut.
I mentioned the Power 3 in one of my discussions above, I am referring to the 3 powerhouses of infect: Hand of the Praetors, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, and Putrefax.
PS: These are just some cards I felt like pointing out last night around 2 in the morning so that might explain some of the strange choices listed here.
After all this talk it is time to have a deck, this is the one I will be trying as soon as possible.
I am not one to add sideboards, because a sideboard is built on what is being played in the area of competition.
The above deck does of course have a lot of room for playtest and improvement, so feel free to say how bad or good you feel certain cards are or the overall deck itself.
I have also tried this deck on MWS for small playtesting and below was how one of my tests ended up playing out.
This is as close to god hand as can be, but this is just to show some possibilities of the deck.
Also, something I would like to do is try to get a spiffy name for this deck here are a few I have been thinking about:
-The Black Death
-Plague
-Poison Bug
-Infectious Bug
it's from mirrodin, and memnarch is the former overseer. plus taking all your opponent's permanents just seems like so much fun.
I'm not sure what Tidewater Minion does here but the Horseshoe Crab + Memnarch + UU mana tapper is good, although I don't think there is anything that can tap for UU.
A better route for this would be Memnarch + Pili-Pala + Anything that taps for 2+ mana.
Although stealing your opponent's permanents is fun, I think the damage combo would be effect, but if you want a fun deck to annoy some friends you got one.
I think planeswalker control, if possible, would benefit the most...
I mean come on, turn 4: GG: play garruk, UU: play jace, tms, untap 2 lands, brainstorm, mana leak... well you get the rest, plus with green can drop anvil on turn 2.
During their time, ravnica was a much more fun environment, but mirrodin block was a hugely broken standard. Cards were banned left and right because of their interaction between cards in the set that made them so powerful, not just cards outside of the set.
Your example of saying cards in the block were broken because of cards outside of the block is going against what you were stating previously about only looking at the cards in the set. You are blatantly looking at cards outside of the set to talk about the cards. If you stay inside the set you will see that those cards are just as powerful if not more because of the limitations.
Here is the answer I have come up with. The slaughter part of this card is where they gut a piece of you out, the games part is their joy in choosing which part to gut.
The ability allows you to only ever get one +1/+1 counter from it, not an X which would have made it a better ability, plus the ability states that if the creature has a +1/+1 counter on it, it can't block so it is possible that you choose not to have the counter on to block with it, just for them to put a counter on it, effectively removing your blocker.
Until we get the card that interacts with unleash or a card that says "If unleashed, you get benefit ?", I think it will be a scorned ability because of its drawback.
Golgari - Return target creature from your graveyard to your hand; Search your library for a basic land cards and put it into your hand. Shuffle your library; Target creature gets +3/-3 until end of turn.
Selesnya - Destroy target enchantment; You gain 2 life; Populate.
Azorius - Target creature gains protection from the color of your choice until end of turn; Draw a card; Tap all creatures.
Rakdos - Each player sacrifices a creature; 2 damage to each player; Each player discards a card at random.
Gruul - Each player sacrifices a land; Target creature gets +3/+3 until end of turn; Destroy target artifact or enchantment.
Orzhov - Tap target creature; Target player discards a card; Remove target players graveyard from the game.
Boros - Target creature gains first strike until end of turn; Target creature gains vigilance until end of turn; ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player and you gain 1 life.
Simic - Return target creature to its owner's hand; Put a +1/+1 counter on target creature; Counter target activated ability.
Dimir - Remove a card of your choice from target players graveyard; Counter target creature spell unless its controller pays 2; Target player puts the top 5 cards of his or her library into their graveyard.
The problem with this is that they printed Magmaquake which makes counters mandatory for a deck like this so they don't just sweep up your board.
As for the Sphere of the Suns, it is early ramp but I don't like wasting a spot on a card that is only good for a little bit then done for. I would rather keep control until I cast a Gilded Lotus, after which I can still can a kill spell or counter.
3x Augur of Bolas
3x Phyrexian Metamorph
3x Solemn Simulacrum
Spells
4x Go for the Throat
3x Dismember
3x Mana Leak
2x Rewind
3x Ponder
3x Bonfire of the Damned
3x Gilded Lotus
1x Trading Post
Planeswalkers
1x Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded
2x Liliana of the Veil
2x Chandra, the Firebrand
2x Tamiyo, the Moon Sage
1x Karn Liberated
1x Nicol Bolas, Planeswalker
3x Mountain
3x Island
3x Swamp
3x Dragonskull Summit
3x Drowned Catacombs
3x Sulfur Falls
1x Desolate Lighthouse
1x Nephalia Drownyard
1x Hellion Crucible
I have not tested this deck or built it yet, this is merely a deck list built by looking through cards on the gatherer. I just wanted to know what people think of the list and any ideas on what to change.
Here are all the cards, after searching, that I had been looking at for putting into the deck.
Archaeomancer - This card has its obvious uses in a spell heavy deck by allowing you to reuse your spells without losing them to flash.
Augur of Bolas - Another creature that works well with a spell heavy deck, allows you to filter through a little of your deck and get a spell with it.
Bloodgift Demon - Extra draw help this deck and a big creature attached help as well.
Charmbreaker Devils - Although random at which spells you get back it makes for a good attacker if you play a little more offensively.
Dark Imposter - Its ability is expensive, but a reusable remove from game effect can be very useful if you are running low on removal.
Delver of Secrets - If you are playing a spell heavy deck and wish to be agro, this guy has proven himself to be a little power house for 1 mana.
Disciple of Bolas - This guy works good in both versions of the deck as you can sac any creature to gain a little life and draw a few cards.
Entomber Exarch - In creature decks, having a way to return your creatures is a good idea, staple on a discard effect and you are looking better off.
Fog Bank - Stall is the main strategy of this deck and a creature that wont die to combat will help give you a few turns.
Harvester of Souls - With a high removal deck this guy can be good, drawing to replace any removal you use.
Lunar Mystic - Another card that helps to replace cards after being used.
Massacre Wurm - Another possible win condition by having your opponent lose life for each creature you kill.
Mindclaw Shaman - When playing a deck that relies on its spell base, this guy helps mess up their hand and give you a peak at what they have.
Phyrexian Metamorph - If you are playing a deck with no big hitters, this guy allows you to have one if your opponent does.
Reassembling Skeleton - Another stall idea, a 1/1 that can come back when you need it or have the mana is useful, even if it comes back tapped.
Snapcaster Mage - He has proven himself time after time that in spell heavy decks, he is just better than most cards for getting in that surprise creature and spell.
Solemn Simulacrum - This is one of the best cards to try and mana fix your lands right now, with a bonus to draw when he dies make him a great choice.
Stormtide Leviathan - Although expensive, this guy can lock down games himself, allowing only flyers and island walk to attack.
Talrand, Sky Summoner - I added this guy because getting a free 2/2 flyer whenever I cast a spell allows me to need less creatures in the deck.
Thundermaw Hellkite - It seems this dragon has made himself a name as a game finisher, allowing you to tap other creatures and attack for 5 can help even this deck get that last damage through.
Vexing Devil - In my opinion, "the" best 1 drop creature ever printed, allowing for early damage or a good creature to try and get a win.
Zealous Conscripts - I have seen this guy played and was impressed with how powerful he can be.
Altar's Reap - Currently the main idea is to draw into your planeswalkers, so sacrificing a creature doesn't seem like a bad idea for 2 cards.
Artillerize - This one I don't like as much, but I did consider it. It allows for an additional 5 damage if need be at the price of a creature.
Brimstone Volley - Better choice for trying to get that 5 damage.
Cackling Counterpart - Clone was always a good card, even if its only for your creatures, and having it at instant speed and twice for one card seems pretty good.
Desperate Ravings - Draw but at the price of a random discard.
Dismember - Good removal with the choice to make it cost only 1.
Dissipate - Better than Cancel while at the same cost and prevents them from Snapcastering it.
Doom Blade - Standard black kill spell.
Flashfreeze - If playing against that faster green or red decks, this helps to stop them, without the chance of paying 3.
Forbidden Alchemy - Although you lose a few cards to the graveyard, this is a good card for digging through your deck to get your planeswalkers.
Edit: Now with more Text!
Their is another thread here [deck][Developing Speculative] Heartless Lich (Grixis) to build decks based on personal opinion on which cards are good. I would like this thread to be for discussing available cards and cards to be previewed later.
The idea of the deck is to use Havengul Lich and Heartless Summoning to abuse cards like Priest of Urabrask and Perilous Myr to win the game. Urabrask for infinite mana and myr for 1 for 2 damage continuously.
These are the current cards that I find that are possible cards for adding to the deck.
Consecrated Sphinx - Sphinx seems like a possible choice. The deck needs more body to block, and even with heartless out it is still a 3/5.
Gitaxian Probe - This is possibly a good choice as it draws a card and allows you to see your opponents hand when you want to go off.
Jace, Memory Adept - In this deck, you want to draw off of him and paying 5 mana for a free draw engine is over the curve, but a possible choice if you wish for a more stalled tactic.
Ponder - A go to draw card once again.
Secrets of the Dead - This one is interesting, but only good after you have already started to combo off, but once you combo it gets you to your wincon.
Think Twice - Instant draw with flashback might be good, but probably offed for better draw.
Thought Scour - If going for the mill route, this is a good 1 cost spell, but not really good for this deck.
Visions of Beyond - Again, another card good for mill, not so much for this deck.
Faithless Looting - Excellent draw spell in red and allows you to chose the discard which is uncommon for red draw spells.
Molten Psyche - This is an interesting card, when you combo off or before hand, allows you to trade a bad hand for possibly better cards or even combo pieces.
Nihil Spellbomb - Does 2 things in one, removes their graveyard if any, and draws a card. More sideboard than mainboard.
Solemn Simulacrum - Decent card, fetches a land and draws a card when it dies. Possible a idea. If two Heartless are out, then it becomes 1 fetch a land, draw a card.
Rune-Scarred Demon - Tutor and beef, but high costed.
Postmortem Lunge - Get back your Havengul for that 1 turn needed for combo.
Unburial Rites - Unfortunately zombify is not back yet so we would have to deal with this. Doubtful it will see play.
Nim Deathmantle - Once on the field, as long as you have 4 mana, it makes killing Havengul very hard to do.
Grimoire of the Dead - Will take some time to due, but will get everything back as long as you still have your graveyard.
Devil's Play - Deals X damage spell with flashback in case they counter it.
Increasing Confusion - Mill X card, harder to due turn three victory, but still a wincon.
Perilous Myr - It will not win right away, but quickly peck away at them until they deal with Havengul.
People think this deck is dead due to Grafdiggers Cage but there is a small variety of answers to that card, and since it will be a sideboard card if anything, you only need to sideboard the answers. Here are a few answers to it:
Crush
Shatter
Steel Sabatoge
This thread is meant for deck building, but to discuss cards that could fit in the deck, then figure out which ones are the best for this deck. There are other cards yet previewed and cards I didn't notice, please discuss those if they might be useful to the deck as well.
With a quick search through the Gatherer for "Creature token" I have found that there are quite a few token producing options available right now. I listed the cards below.
Garruk Relentless / Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
Bloodline Keeper / Lord of Lineage
Since all colors have a little something that can be used in this deck, I fell that their are many ways for this deck to be mad and enjoyed, from Tournament to budget.
So far the focus for tokens have been on bant colors, which seems like it may be the best options, but I would like to diversify and see what all the options may be.
"Very sorry for starting this post without any deck lists but I don't have the time right now to post any more."
-Green_Man_2000
If you recall the time at which Stag was legal, you would know that it was very powerful, played in most decks, and the reason people rotated away from black for a while.
I would love to see Stag come back for sure, but just like then, I see him causing a lot more grief that he should. Black has better answers against it this time around like Obliterator, but with the loss of JTMS, people are already saying they don't want to play blue any more, and with a powerful creature like this in standard, and with no possible answers being made, people would probably do the same thing they did back then, rotate away from a color to something else.
I like this idea, but the first thing that would have to change about this is the creature type. They couldn't leave it as an elf because that is to powerful tribal-wise. Secondly, I am not so sure they would allow an effect like this to be on an uncommon. Lastly, I don't think this would fit the cycles ground as a hoser, since it doesn't really do anything against their color like the other ones, and a reuseable creature for every spell they play just seems to good. I think something like this would see a better chance:
Creature - Ooze
Whenever your opponent casts a blue or black spell, if Primordial Ooze is in your graveyard you may return it to its owner's hand.
"In the presence of unnatural magic, the ooze begins to stir with anticipation."
2/1
The closest thing they did right for this was Great Stable Stag which even they knew to make a rare, but their lies the problem.
Green's best way for a hoser is a creature, but anything on a creature, that is efficient, would be bumped up to rare. Anything on a spell, without a cantrip, will just be bad, and if it did cantrip, people would only use it for the cantrip. Like this one:
Instant
Target creature gains protect from Blue and Black until end of turn.
Draw a card.
My idea, even though I don't think it is all that good as a core set hoser, would be something that allowed green to slow down blue and black spells and try to beat them in the race. Something like:
Instant
Opponent's can't play Blue or Black spells until end of turn.
Abilities of Blue or Black permanents can't be activated this turn.
Past seeing play in legacy, I don't think this would have much of an impact on anything.
As it stands right now, blue and black rarely ever have a noncreature permanent, past planeswalkers, that stay on the board. Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything being played that would really care if this was even main board. This is including that fact that JTMS was banned, or it would be seeing play.
I played FNM last Friday to see what decks were being played now that JTMS is gone, and test my Green Homebrew Beats.
Out of 4 rounds and 2 top 8 rounds, I was able to use Green Sun's Zenith to fetch my Palakka Wurm out of my deck every game with mana to spare, So I don't see if being impossible to do this. You just have to get to that point in order to do it.
In case you wish to know, instead of thinking I was playing against bad decks, I played against: M-B Vamps, Caw-Blade 2.0 or "Fail-Blade" as he called it, Red Deck Wins, M-W Tempered Steel, White Weenie, and Red Goblins.
After taking a close look at the U/B Poison aggro/midrange thread I have to say that I really feel that blue is not the good choice to go as the second main color. After looking at almost all the decks, I noticed that all that blue has been added for is: Distortion Strike, Sleep, Renegade Doppleganger, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, and counters. While I do see these cards as good, I don't see any of those cards really helping you to win the game except for Distortioin Strike (Yes, I don't think Jace, TMS helps this deck that greatly, Venser would be better). I believe that green offers a better variety of cards to help push the Poison deck further than blue could, it offers pumps, ways to protect your creatures, and a few more Infect creatures to run at your disposal.
Green can server the same purpose as blue can in the other decks that I have seen, but do so even better. Here are my reasons:
2) Jace, the Mind Sculptor, while I will not deny the power this card hold, I have to ask 1 question, what does he really do for the deck? You might say Brainstorm is what he does, but why waste a slot to add 1 card to your hand instead of continuing to put the pressure on your opponent which is what this deck needs to do. You might say Unsummon, which goes to, why did you pay 2UU to play a U costed spell. I just don't see the power of Jace working for this deck because he wants you to sit and protect him while you should be trying to win.
3) Proliferate effects. While I wont say Thrummingbird is bad or that Steady Progress is good, why play a spell that at best only offers you the addition of just one poison counter when you can play a real creature with infect to help put on a few more?
4) Distortion Strike is really the only thing that Green just cannot out due of blue, but with Misty Rainforest and green ramp, I don't see why throwing in 2 or 3 Islands to make this playable would be so hard. (Sorcery speed Ramp, Instant speed Ramp)
Bear Umbra - This offers 3 great effects that can all help you in a game. 1) Pumps your creature to help prevent death via Lightning Bolt 2) Totem armor protects your creature from death one time which could make a game difference if they can't stop that one creature 3) Untaps your lands when you attack so you can play pump spells, play another creature, or just save it if you want. All around this card has its uses.
Beastmaster Ascension - Straight forward, this card makes your creatures BIG. Although slow if you are able to get it started, it will force the game to a very quick end.
Blight Mamba - Another infect creature is always good and this guy may be just what we need after Alara rotates. With the lost of most 'remove from the game' cards that white had, people will begin to play with more 'destroy target creature' cards which will make a creature with regen on it possibly that much more of a threat as it is not as easily dealt with.
Carrion Call - While we all know that getting a few dudes with power can be game winning via: Spectral Procession and Join the Ranks, I am not sold on this card. It could prove to be a powerhouse in the poison community, which is why I am adding it here, so I feel that it should get some consideration, two 1/1 infect creatures at the end of your turn for pseudo haste or surprise blockers seems like potential.
Cystbearer - While not liking this card personally, people are willing to play small creatures that benefit to there goal, and at a cost of 2G, this is the closest thing in infect, other than power 3, that can survive burn (Any burn other than Lightning Bolt and Searing Blaze). So that might attract this to some sideboards, or not.
Garruk Wildspeaker - This seems to me like an almost auto-include in any poison deck. The ability to overrun the turn after he comes out makes him an instant threat that has to be dealt with.
Giant Growth - Although being in the background for so long, it looks like Giant Growth may once again appear as a good card for poison decks. The ability to throw in 3 additional poison counters when your creature gets threw can quickly change the game from lost to won.
Gigantiform - Once again we come to the fact that spot removal is losing a lot of power so this card seems like it should be given a good look at. Changing your 1/1 flying Plague Stinger into an 8/8 flying trampler will quickly make your opponent start sweating in fear, and if you have the mana, you can pay the kicker and really make them cry.
Leyline of Vitality - As everyone knows, infect creatures have no toughness and die to everything. Then this is a possible solution, whether paying 2GG or playing it for free, this card will pump your little guys into some little tough bad guys that laugh to a single Lightning Bolt.
Might of Oaks - Every once in a while your little 1/1 will get threw, and this card is just seems like that big surprise they just wont survive. +7/+7 at instant speed is something that can't be ignored in a deck that wants to do only 10 damage to your opponent.
Overwhelming Stampede - Although a good card, not sure how it would play in a deck filled with little creatures. Mass pump is good, but I am not sure how this would work in this deck. Maybe after a Giant Growth to get some good potential.
Putrefax - This card can easily be considered the third most powerful Infect creature, so why not run it? Its sad to sac it at end of turn, but 5 trample damage will help make your game move along.
Strength of the Tajuru - We all know that this deck wants its creatures to become big and strong, and this seems like a good card to do so. This cards seems like the perfect pump spell for this deck as the pump will stay on your creature in the form of +1/+1 counters and you have the option to give the counters to more than one creature.
Tangle Angler - Lure effects, to me, have never been that appealing, but being able to selectively weaken a creature seems like a good thing. Also being able to get that creature that's stopping you from winning out of the way also seems like a reason to at least look at the card.
Tel-Jilad Fallen - I can't say for sure how popular artifact decks become, if at all, but this guy would just dominate those decks. As for now I say meh to this guy, but we will have to wait and see if it turns out if he will be good or not.
Untamed Might - I feel that this card is not as good as Strength, but it does have the benefit of costing G less. Just another pump X spell to consider when building your deck.
Withstand Death - Your creature dieing is always a problem and this guy fixes that without the regen clause. Seems like an interesting card and at just G seems like a card that might make the cut.
I mentioned the Power 3 in one of my discussions above, I am referring to the 3 powerhouses of infect: Hand of the Praetors, Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon, and Putrefax.
PS: These are just some cards I felt like pointing out last night around 2 in the morning so that might explain some of the strange choices listed here.
4x Birds of Paradise
3x Hand of the Praetors
2x Skithiryx, the Blight Dragon
3x Putrefax
3x Ichor Rats
3x Plague Stinger
2x Corpse Cur
2x Asceticism
3x Giant Growth
2x Strength of the Tajuru
3x Garruk Wildspeaker
4x Distortion Strike
3x Mimic vat
2x Livewire Lash
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Misty Rainforest
7x Swamp
5x Forest
2x Island
I am not one to add sideboards, because a sideboard is built on what is being played in the area of competition.
The above deck does of course have a lot of room for playtest and improvement, so feel free to say how bad or good you feel certain cards are or the overall deck itself.
I have also tried this deck on MWS for small playtesting and below was how one of my tests ended up playing out.
Turn2: Swamp, Ichor Rats - 1 poison
Turn3: Verdant Catacombs (Search for swamp), Garruk Wildspeaker, Plague Stinger - 3 poison
Turn4: Island, Putrefax, Overrun with Garruk - 20 poison
This is as close to god hand as can be, but this is just to show some possibilities of the deck.
Also, something I would like to do is try to get a spiffy name for this deck here are a few I have been thinking about:
-The Black Death
-Plague
-Poison Bug
-Infectious Bug
Also, love how Acidic Slime is now 20 times better than Mold Shambler ever wished it could be.
I'm not sure what Tidewater Minion does here but the Horseshoe Crab + Memnarch + UU mana tapper is good, although I don't think there is anything that can tap for UU.
A better route for this would be Memnarch + Pili-Pala + Anything that taps for 2+ mana.
Although stealing your opponent's permanents is fun, I think the damage combo would be effect, but if you want a fun deck to annoy some friends you got one.
I mean come on, turn 4: GG: play garruk, UU: play jace, tms, untap 2 lands, brainstorm, mana leak... well you get the rest, plus with green can drop anvil on turn 2.