When a card references itself in an ability, it does not get tied to that name. It references itself, ie, the card with the ability. If the name of the card changes, so does the name in the ability. If another card copies that ability, the name in the ability changes. However, if a card references another card, that name stays the same.
If you cast clone, targetting a kookus, your "clone" will next turn deal 3 damage to you and attack if able, unless you somehow had a keeper of kookus out (or a clone of keeper!? Don't ask me)
Yeah, I was curious about this seeing as it has no mention of this effect for Experiment Kraj or even rulings that say the name would be changed. A good and must know thing to know.
PS: Clan Iraq, you can add this to your sig.
Buy a playset of Primeval Titan, or 4 different games for my system...
No, I was accounting for the Training Grounds drawback. With the Grounds, Pili-Pala reads 1, Untap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. So it's effectively a zero cost, though not technically.
Yes, you are correct, sorry about that. Haven't seen Assassin in forever and was thinking that it costed one mana to active for some reason. I stand corrected and and very pleased to be, makes this much funner <--bad fake words are bad.
I think what people forget about is that yes it copies all the devourer's abilities, BUT it also references the card "name". Since the Ooze does not change its name in order to use the abilities it can get as big as it wants since the "name" clause will be checked but never occur due to the Ooze being the wrong card "name".
I am not quite sure about this, I thought that the name would be changed to the creature that is coping the ability, but ,via Experiment Kraj's wording and ruling, there is nothing I see that says that the activated abilities name reference would be changed to the coping creatures, so as far as I can see this is a possibility.
Also please realize legacy isn't a combo winter format(even vintage is swaying to away from combo) it's filled with control decks and aggro as well, and necrotic ooze fails to lightning bolt, chain lightning, lightning helix, and swords to plowshares which are all widely played. Hell even snuff out and other black removal is sometimes played.
We do realize that Legacy isn't controlled by combo anymore and that control and aggro are in the big time now, I just thought that this would be a possible fun deck that might stand a chance to being competitive.
Also with the removal factor, I already stated in a previous post that this combo is very weak with relying on one creature so I know that it might die off most of the time, but there is always the possibility that it will go threw. Also with this, if you keep stacking Phyrexian Devourer's ability on top of the removal, you will still win whether they played the removal or not, unless it has Split Second.
Actually, I just realized there's another problem with it. All the tokens have haste, and it does work on the turn they come out...but all but one are tapped. So, I think, for an alternate combo, I'd go with Kiki-Jiki, Mogg Fanatic, and a haste-granting reanimation spell.
Thinking about this, this is a possible turn two win for any combo only requiring two pieces.
With Royal Assassin and Pili-Pala in the yard, it has 1: Destroy target tapped creature. With Training Grounds out, that becomes 0: Destroy target tapped creature. Why? To handle infinite attacking tokens, I guess.
You have this part about Training Grounds wrong, it does not reduce the cost of the ability below one so it would be, with Training Grounds out, "1: Destroy target tapped creature."
Also, greenman, your description of the Devourer combo in the OP is incorrect; you can't do anything before the second part of the ability resolves (the ability resolves all at once). Instead, you simply don't let the ability resolve if the cmc is too high and instead activate the ability again.
The point is, once you activate the Devourer ability you can see whether resolving it would put 3 or more counter on Ooze (since you know what is the cmc of the exiled card). If it would, you just activate the ability again, each time checking how many counters would show up. If it's less than three, you let the ability resolve (with all the previous activations still on the stack), then use Triskellion's ability by removing +1/+1 counters to ping your opponent. Once all counters are gone, you activate the Devourer ability again.
This is actually the only version of the combo that fits under a single Buried Alive, making it the best one of the bunch.
The biggest problem with the Trisk + Devourer combo is that Trisk only removes +1/+1 counters, not +2/+2 or +3/+3 which makes this an iffy effect unless you play a vast amount of 1 cmc spells.
To prevent exactly these kinds of abuses (and fling), the oracle text on phyrexian devourer has the "7 or greater power" check on both his state based effect and his activated ability, totally redundant. As a result, you cannot use its ability to pump beyond 7 power on the ooze- as soon as you flip a card 3+ mana cost, you'll sacrifice him as the ability resolves. The check is actually part of the ability
The reason Ooze is a fun card is because it doesn't copy these effects, only activated effects so you don't have to worry about it and there fore can pump the Ooze to as big as you would like without side effects.
EDIT: mana base could also use a couple more fetchlands that grab a swamp in place of basics and 4 polluted delta in place of watery grave
I agree with the lands, that will help more.
As for the mana boosts you suggested, I'm not sure pitching a card early is that great a choice, but I know i'm wrong, and prefer the Lotus Petal over the Cabal Ritual for faster excel, but I think the Lion's Eye and Infernal Tutor will go in for now as the best posible excel and tutor unless better show up.
When I first saw Necrotic Ooze, the first thing that came to mind for me was an old infinite mana combo I used during Lorwyn block which was "Bloom Tender + Umbral Mantle" for infinite mana.
So I decided to look into some legacy cards and together everyone has help find 5 possible Infinite combos that you could do with Necrotic Ooze.
1) Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ; Cinderhaze Wretch ; Prodigal Sorcerer (Infinite creatures & damage)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Kiki-Jiki's ability and copy the Necrotic Ooze, and do so with each copy until satisfied, then use Cinderhaze's second ability to untap each one, and then tap for your damage. (Damage wasn't really needed but put it in to fill the third slot of Buried Alive.)
2) Knotvine Mystic ; Puresight Merrow ; Arcanis the Omnipotent (Infinite mana & draw)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Knotvine Mystic's ability and make three mana, then use Puresight Merrow to untap using one mana, continue until infinite mana, and then use Arcanis the Omnipotent to draw cards, using infinite mana and Puresight Merrow's ability to keep drawing.
3) Knacksaw Clique ; Pili-Pala ; Elvish Aberration (Infinite Mill & Steal)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Elvish Aberration's ability and add three green mana, then use Pili-Pala's ability and turn two mana into one blue, and then use Knacksaw Clique's ability to remove the top card of target opponent's library from the game, rinse and repeat with added fun of playing their cards.
4) Devoted Druid ; Morselhoarder ; Oona, Queen of the Fae (Infinite Mill & Mana, limited creatures) [Found by chaosof99]
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Devoted Druid's ability and add one green, then untap with Druid's second ability, then use Morselhoarder to remove the -1/-1 counter and add one mana, and then use Oona, Queen of the Fae's ability to remove their library and get a Fairy for each card.
5) Triskelion ; Phyrexian Devourer (Infinite Damage) [Found by Apex]
-How it works: With both in grave, use Phyrexian Devourer's ability to add X +1/+1 counters, then use Triskelion's ability to remove +1/+1 counters for damage, then rinse and repeat. (Make sure to stack Devourer's ability or you will lose the Necrotic Ooze if cmc of revealed is 3 or greater.)
With these three combos avaliable and Buried Alive, I think this deck has some potential.
Since Legacy is not my "All that and a bag of potato chips" kinda thing I can't say this is the best deck possible (it's late and I don't wont to scour the gatherer right now.) so legacy players might have a better idea of how to build this, but here is what I am thinking.
So far all the combos have at least one blue card in it, I believe that blue cards should always be creature #3 so that you get more possible use out of Force of Will.
I know that this combo is some what fragile as it relies on a single creature, but I think with the possibility to get it off turn 4 makes it good and the counter magic to back it up.
I think in the end this could turn out to be competitive and would like to see some experienced players help make it so.
Also a tip for most people. When you say this is a four card combo, you are looking at it wrong, it can in fact be a three card combo... Here is what I mean.
But we do have a way to cheat it in and win when it comes in and requires only 3 cards, not including land, and can do so on turn 2.
Turn 1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive (putting in the grave Triskelion, Phyrexian Devourer, & Necrotic Ooze, with Ooze on top)
Turn 2: Swamp, Return to play from grave spell, gg
Possible spells to return the Ooze: Animate Dead, Dance of the Dead, Life // Death, Exhume, Reanimate, Shallow Grave
Yeah, I was curious about this seeing as it has no mention of this effect for Experiment Kraj or even rulings that say the name would be changed. A good and must know thing to know.
PS: Clan Iraq, you can add this to your sig.
Buy a playset of Primeval Titan, or 4 different games for my system...
Yes, you are correct, sorry about that. Haven't seen Assassin in forever and was thinking that it costed one mana to active for some reason. I stand corrected and and very pleased to be, makes this much funner <--bad fake words are bad.
I am not quite sure about this, I thought that the name would be changed to the creature that is coping the ability, but ,via Experiment Kraj's wording and ruling, there is nothing I see that says that the activated abilities name reference would be changed to the coping creatures, so as far as I can see this is a possibility.
We do realize that Legacy isn't controlled by combo anymore and that control and aggro are in the big time now, I just thought that this would be a possible fun deck that might stand a chance to being competitive.
Also with the removal factor, I already stated in a previous post that this combo is very weak with relying on one creature so I know that it might die off most of the time, but there is always the possibility that it will go threw. Also with this, if you keep stacking Phyrexian Devourer's ability on top of the removal, you will still win whether they played the removal or not, unless it has Split Second.
Thinking about this, this is a possible turn two win for any combo only requiring two pieces.
Turn 1: Swamp, Dark Ritual, Buried Alive.
Turn 2: Swamp, Shallow Grave, GG?
This seems like a possibly good bet for a way for the deck to go, but of course Angel's Grace still can jump in and yell "NOT ON MY WATCH!!!"
Since I like this idea alot, I will be adding as a second deck to op.
You have this part about Training Grounds wrong, it does not reduce the cost of the ability below one so it would be, with Training Grounds out, "1: Destroy target tapped creature."
Thank you for that, fixing now.
This is true but changing the lands to help fit this shouldn't be to hard... maybe this?
3x Badlands
2x Polluted Delta
2x Bloodstained Mire
7x Swamp
4x Island
1x Mountain
Maybe even take out one swamp and add another Polluted Delta.
Once again, I didn't read the full oracle text and have been shown wrong yet again, and with that will add as a fifth combo to op.
Sorry, was looking at the card only and didn't see that they had changed the oracle, so you are correct.
The biggest problem with the Trisk + Devourer combo is that Trisk only removes +1/+1 counters, not +2/+2 or +3/+3 which makes this an iffy effect unless you play a vast amount of 1 cmc spells.
The reason Ooze is a fun card is because it doesn't copy these effects, only activated effects so you don't have to worry about it and there fore can pump the Ooze to as big as you would like without side effects.
I agree with the lands, that will help more.
As for the mana boosts you suggested, I'm not sure pitching a card early is that great a choice, but I know i'm wrong, and prefer the Lotus Petal over the Cabal Ritual for faster excel, but I think the Lion's Eye and Infernal Tutor will go in for now as the best posible excel and tutor unless better show up.
Like I said, I don't know the restrictions of legacy so its good to know this. Will edit out the Demonic Tutor and Sol Ring.
Anyone know of a good mana boost card and tutor past those two, or possibly something more suited for the slot.
Also, found replacement for Mana & Draw combo and will update, also found a Infinite Mill and Steal combo.
When I first saw Necrotic Ooze, the first thing that came to mind for me was an old infinite mana combo I used during Lorwyn block which was "Bloom Tender + Umbral Mantle" for infinite mana.
So I decided to look into some legacy cards and together everyone has help find 5 possible Infinite combos that you could do with Necrotic Ooze.
1) Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker ; Cinderhaze Wretch ; Prodigal Sorcerer (Infinite creatures & damage)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Kiki-Jiki's ability and copy the Necrotic Ooze, and do so with each copy until satisfied, then use Cinderhaze's second ability to untap each one, and then tap for your damage. (Damage wasn't really needed but put it in to fill the third slot of Buried Alive.)
2) Knotvine Mystic ; Puresight Merrow ; Arcanis the Omnipotent (Infinite mana & draw)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Knotvine Mystic's ability and make three mana, then use Puresight Merrow to untap using one mana, continue until infinite mana, and then use Arcanis the Omnipotent to draw cards, using infinite mana and Puresight Merrow's ability to keep drawing.
3) Knacksaw Clique ; Pili-Pala ; Elvish Aberration (Infinite Mill & Steal)
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Elvish Aberration's ability and add three green mana, then use Pili-Pala's ability and turn two mana into one blue, and then use Knacksaw Clique's ability to remove the top card of target opponent's library from the game, rinse and repeat with added fun of playing their cards.
4) Devoted Druid ; Morselhoarder ; Oona, Queen of the Fae (Infinite Mill & Mana, limited creatures) [Found by chaosof99]
-How it works: With all three in grave, tap for Devoted Druid's ability and add one green, then untap with Druid's second ability, then use Morselhoarder to remove the -1/-1 counter and add one mana, and then use Oona, Queen of the Fae's ability to remove their library and get a Fairy for each card.
5) Triskelion ; Phyrexian Devourer (Infinite Damage) [Found by Apex]
-How it works: With both in grave, use Phyrexian Devourer's ability to add X +1/+1 counters, then use Triskelion's ability to remove +1/+1 counters for damage, then rinse and repeat. (Make sure to stack Devourer's ability or you will lose the Necrotic Ooze if cmc of revealed is 3 or greater.)
With these three combos avaliable and Buried Alive, I think this deck has some potential.
Since Legacy is not my "All that and a bag of potato chips" kinda thing I can't say this is the best deck possible (it's late and I don't wont to scour the gatherer right now.) so legacy players might have a better idea of how to build this, but here is what I am thinking.
4x Necrotic Ooze
1x (Creature #1)
1x (Creature #2)
4x (Creature #3)
Spells
4x Buried Alive
4x Dark Ritual
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Infernal Tutor
4x (support card)
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacomb
7x Swamp
4x Island
4x Necrotic Ooze
1x (Creature #1)
1x (Creature #2)
Spells
4x Buried Alive
4x Dark Ritual
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
4x Shallow Grave
4x Lotus Petal
4x (support card)
4x (support card)
4x Underground Sea
4x Polluted Delta
3x Verdant Catacomb
7x Swamp
4x Island
Possible combos for turn two right now are Triskelion + Phyrexian Devourer, Infinite damage, and Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker + Cinderhaze Wretch / Mogg Fanatic, Infinite creatures + attack / Infinite Damage.
So far all the combos have at least one blue card in it, I believe that blue cards should always be creature #3 so that you get more possible use out of Force of Will.
I know that this combo is some what fragile as it relies on a single creature, but I think with the possibility to get it off turn 4 makes it good and the counter magic to back it up.
I think in the end this could turn out to be competitive and would like to see some experienced players help make it so.
4x Myr Galvanizer
4x Myr Battlesphere
4x Iron Myr
4x Palladium Myr
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Galvanic Blast
4x Comet Storm
4x Fling
4x All is Dust
4x Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
16x Mountain
Palladium Myr + Myr Galvanizer + Splinter Twin
The way it works is you put the splinter twin on the galvanizer, tap to make clone, tap Pall and there you go, infinite 3 card combo.
Even if you don't have Pall, just a mana myr you still get infinite creatures which is still good.