Since dakmor is a land and fuels itself, any land you hit when dredging it back to your hand will make extra gitrog triggers (max 1 per dredge of course).
This means you are garunteed at least 1 extra draw for each two lands in your library each cycle before reshuffling.
I think hulk still has game even in the current meta. I'm not sure it is the best deck but it can still be competitive. I think the way key way to think about it is that Eldrazi is only 1 matchup and we are really only weak to 1 of their cards (depending on the list). If they don't get their grave hate then they probably lose. Still a bad MU but not unwinnable.
That being said I've been taking a break from Hulk for the last while as I like to switch decks so as not to get too sick of any one deck. I was playing 4C gifts for a while but recently I've picked up Ascendancy Gifts and I'm really liking it right now. When I do play hulk again next I'll probably be running some number of Gifts Ungiven for some more inevitability.
Has any thought been put into Hangarback Walker in the 75? He could be ticked up slowly so if somehow the opponent is able to Vandalblast or something of that nature, you would be left with a bunch of chump blockers while you rebuild. Thoughts?
This is true although you could include a card to get around this. Also if it gets to that point you will have multiple fate switchers out with multiple ascendancy triggers on them and also probably be able to hard cast the fatties in the deck.
Interesting - so if I follow you would cast loam for 3 lands. You then jab discarding 1, untap bird, jab discarding 1 untap bird and draw loam with your loot trigger discarding the 3rd land?
So to "go off" you'd need... um... I guess two ascendancies? Because otherwise you run out of mana when you need to cast the loam again since you're only getting one mana back on each ascendancy trigger which must be used for flame jab?
You would need either 2 mana dorks, 2 ascendancy, or fatesticher + simic growth chamber.
The version from the SCG works different than the current build. It uses the fact that there are so many mana dorks in the deck to accelerate into Gifts Ungiven.
Basically: Gifts + Ascendancy + Dork + Land = win.
There are many lines to this depending on your scenario and it may take a fair amount of practice to get use to but the basic steps are:
Now if you don't have the second mana dork then you will either need a fate stitcher already in the grave or need to already have/play Simic Growth Chamber. This can be used with one Fate Stitcher and at least 1 land that produces red (Likely since you already cast Acendancy) to perform the combo.
As you can see this version does not require a stream of card draw to go off and therefor plays a more controlling strategy. Other lines are of course to Gifts for Unburial + Iona or to simply use a mix of Lightning Bolt, Flame Jab, Jeskai Ascendancy, Snapcaster Mage and Mana Dorks to just kill the opponent the old fashioned way.
So scheming is an all star but the worst of all your digging? I'm not going to pretend to understand this anymore lol. So after game 1 you are a graveyard deck that's afraid to put stuff into your grave yard? I never said to cut any 1 mana (cantrip/dig) spells I was stating you should be cutting the mana intensive spells like makeshift if you're worried about your yard getting blown up. I think maybe I'm just a very different type of player than some of you with some of the decisions being made with this type of combo deck.
Scheming is one of the best at digging however the 1 mana dig cards are more core crucial to the deck because of the lower mana cost. If that is too complicated to understand then I don't know how else to explain it to you. As far as siding out makeshift instead my point was more so that I would likely just not side out as many cards in the first place.
Also at no point did I say that you should be afraid to put things into your graveyard. I simply stated that scheming's value goes down after game 1 due to grave hate.
Scheming is the All-star (as you pointed out) but match 1 you side one out and match 3 you side them all out? If it's that strong I just don't really see why both of your real matches they were sided out.
Do you take notes as you play matchups so you have a better idea of how to sideboard? The songs seem a bit odd too as if you are on the draw like game 2 you have t1 to loot or whatever but then if you worry about a t2 RIP you need to take the turn off to keep up swan song and stay in that predicament there on out not maximizing your mana. That will always be the advantage of playing a more instant speed build. I would have likely sided out the mannequin/darkblast setup and kept your digging cards if they're so important. If your build is cutting all 4 ssg every game why not just drop the card altogether?
I personally prefer more interaction over SSGs in my 75 so I do agree on that point. Scheming only starts to come out if you have too many cards to board in for a matchup.
You can't really cut into your 1 mana dig too much although as they are important with the low land count of the deck. Scheming is basically the best option for the 2 mana slot however visions while it cannot bin a hulk does technically dig deeper per mana, adds card advantage and can be used which stuck on 1 land. For these reasons I would say that visions is the best dig in the deck however cannot be the only dig. Between faithless looting and scheming I think faithless is a bit more core nessesary to make the deck function than schemeing. It is the safe bet even though scheming is more powerful.
For these reasons when you need to cut some dig for sideboard cards, scheming is the first to go. That being said the cards coming in that replace scheming should be considered heavily as to whether they are truly going to improve the matchup enough to justify the loss in consistency. Generally I may take them out more so in fear of some heavy grave hate. I'm not sure burn is the right matchup to do so however.
Well fair enough but even if he does start working on turn 2 which requires 3 cards, he still effectively only deals with 1 creature unless you flashback more removal which makes him about as good as a single removal spell unless the game goes late. And this is assuming the creature doesn't have trample or power greater than 2. Also the list posted has only 3 izzet charms and 1 cut for removal.
I guess the real question is what match ups would this version be better in than a more direct build, and why?
Jace blocks on their turn 2 is what I'm telling you, so he blocks (likely 2 damage) flips and on your turn you go off or stop another 2 damage. So you gain a lot in that situation is what I was saying. I'm not understanding how people seem to only think he's effective turn 3 or later when he can drop turn 1 or 2 as well. I've stated many times people don't need to play my version I just think it's important you understand how it plays, before saying how it plays in different situations.
What is he blocking? He can't flip until your turn 3 so if you block anything with greater than 1 power then he is going to die before you can do anything with him.
I played a game yesterday that had a unique interaction with Mannequin and I lost because I didn't see into the future on a play... So, I'm playing burn, I'm at 2 life and he has one card in hand. I have a Hulk in the yard, 4 mana available and only a Footsteps and Mannequin in hand. So, I can reanimate with either spell, but since I have nothing to target Hulk with, I play Footsteps. He then cracks a fetch, plays Searing Blaze on my Hulk. I lose. In hindsight, I should have realized that he might have a Blaze in hand, because any other burn spell would have already killed me. By Mannequining Hulk instead of Footstepsing him, He wouldn't have been able to play searing or else he'd have died. Either way, just wanted to bring that up to the community.
-Yawg
I don't think it would have mattered honestly since he could just have easily have targeted your first seer in response to your 2nd hulk trigger. I suppose maybe you could have gone for a hulk beat down plan but that pretty unlikely so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.
One card that I have started to consider for the sideboard is Kolaghan's Command. It can hit relic/cage/needle, bin a hulk at instant speed, possibly kill an ooze, and bring a combo peice back to hand in the face of grave hate. And the choose 2 is not irrelevant since there is the play of "blow up relic + discard hulk" is a thing.
Anyway I'm not really convinced about it yet so I figured I would bring it up for discussion. Any thoughts?
I think people forget vengeance can be cast on opponents turn and mainly end step. This allows you to keep him till yours so you can attack, gain your 7 life, draw wherever you need, exile ssg to cast faithless discarding hulk or whatever else you may need to, cast footsteps, and you likely have pact in hand GG. You don't need 5 mana to do anything all in one turn and you don't need to have Jace last through your opponents turn during summoning sickness. You make your opponents use their spells on their turn so you are efficiency casting your spells. Let's be honest if you are attempting to go off turn three and on their turn 2 they didn't counter your vengeance you are likely free to win. I've very rarely had issue having a vengeance and no target for it or a footsteps and not been able to pull off the combo. I personally feel I have the cards where I need them very often. I like the spells I like and I'm not telling you that you need to play my version I was just letting people know that for me it works great. I hate the sorcery speed of the normal list as well as mannequin altogether.
EDIT
Agro has to have a heck of a game dealing with a 7/7 lifelink blocker at instant speed or a 0/2 that blocks and flips into a walker that at the least nerfs their aggro creature. If they do bolt it in response you still gained 5 life and looted for 1B assuming the creature was at least 2 power. Now you'll argue that only works if Jace can flip but let's be honest when doesn't he. If you scour/loot turn one he flips turn 2 off of vengeance.
You can attack with Griselbrand anyway since Vengeance gives haste. Jace only starts helping vs aggro on turn 3 and effectively only nullifies 1 creature if even since -2 will only full stop some creatures and does nothing vs something like zoo, elves, merfolk or hatebears that plays many creatures, or something that uses much larger creatures like infect or bogles. Jace also does little against burn. Basically as I've stated before he is mostly just good in the late game and so belongs in a deck that is built to make it to the late game.
I don't think most of us are trying to completely dismiss your idea (or at least I am not) however there are some issues with at least your current build that we have noticed. When you are the person that came up with the idea, it makes you fairly biased towards it and makes it pretty difficult to see any issues. Basically you only see the upsides in perfect scenarios. I've won a few tournaments with the hulk deck before I found this thread and usually still did fairly decent with it when I wasn't experimenting too much.
Jace, as people have said, does a lot for the deck & to those that don't like him I recommend testing him out first. Being able to loot + flashback Visions digs 4 cards, nets you +1 card so you can dig even more next turn, and leaves you with a Walker & the chance to be able to flash something else back later. To me, that seems like a lot more digging power than a Scheming, and when digging looting your hand dry with cards like Scheming and Faithless is a real concern. Biggest problems are turning on opponent's Lightning Bolts & waiting on summoning sickness, but it seems worth it to me so far. He doesn't make the deck any faster, but I do think he makes the deck more consistent, resilient, powerful, and flexible. If speed is your only goal he may not be for you, but I'll be testing him.
Dark petition could work but I personally really like Mannequin as it gets past path to exile and many other little things quite nicely. Also if you don't have a way to kill the hulk then you are still left with a 6/6 that your opponent is basically not allowed to kill.
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/1168850#online
This means you are garunteed at least 1 extra draw for each two lands in your library each cycle before reshuffling.
Noose Constrictor and Olivia's Dragoon
That being said I've been taking a break from Hulk for the last while as I like to switch decks so as not to get too sick of any one deck. I was playing 4C gifts for a while but recently I've picked up Ascendancy Gifts and I'm really liking it right now. When I do play hulk again next I'll probably be running some number of Gifts Ungiven for some more inevitability.
You would need either 2 mana dorks, 2 ascendancy, or fatesticher + simic growth chamber.
Basically: Gifts + Ascendancy + Dork + Land = win.
There are many lines to this depending on your scenario and it may take a fair amount of practice to get use to but the basic steps are:
1. Cast Gifts untapping your dork.
2. Search for Life From the Loam, Fate Stitchery, Flame Jab and some other 1 mana spell or a land (Simic Growth Chamber).
3. If needed cast the 1 mana spell or retrace flame jab using the Jeskai Ascendancy trigger to dredge the Life From The Loam and discard the Fate Stitcher.
4. Unearth Fate Stitcher.
5. Cast or retrace Flame Jab to untap both dorks.
6. Cast Life From the Loam to return 2-3 lands.
7. Cast Flame Jab targeting opponent.
8. Use Ascendancy trigger to dredge back Life From the Loam discarding the 2nd land.
9. Repeat steps 6 through 8 as nessesary. (Note with 3 lands you can cast Flame Jab twice for each dredge with Life From the Loam netting 2 mana per cycle)
Now if you don't have the second mana dork then you will either need a fate stitcher already in the grave or need to already have/play Simic Growth Chamber. This can be used with one Fate Stitcher and at least 1 land that produces red (Likely since you already cast Acendancy) to perform the combo.
As you can see this version does not require a stream of card draw to go off and therefor plays a more controlling strategy. Other lines are of course to Gifts for Unburial + Iona or to simply use a mix of Lightning Bolt, Flame Jab, Jeskai Ascendancy, Snapcaster Mage and Mana Dorks to just kill the opponent the old fashioned way.
Scheming is one of the best at digging however the 1 mana dig cards are more core crucial to the deck because of the lower mana cost. If that is too complicated to understand then I don't know how else to explain it to you. As far as siding out makeshift instead my point was more so that I would likely just not side out as many cards in the first place.
Also at no point did I say that you should be afraid to put things into your graveyard. I simply stated that scheming's value goes down after game 1 due to grave hate.
I personally prefer more interaction over SSGs in my 75 so I do agree on that point. Scheming only starts to come out if you have too many cards to board in for a matchup.
You can't really cut into your 1 mana dig too much although as they are important with the low land count of the deck. Scheming is basically the best option for the 2 mana slot however visions while it cannot bin a hulk does technically dig deeper per mana, adds card advantage and can be used which stuck on 1 land. For these reasons I would say that visions is the best dig in the deck however cannot be the only dig. Between faithless looting and scheming I think faithless is a bit more core nessesary to make the deck function than schemeing. It is the safe bet even though scheming is more powerful.
For these reasons when you need to cut some dig for sideboard cards, scheming is the first to go. That being said the cards coming in that replace scheming should be considered heavily as to whether they are truly going to improve the matchup enough to justify the loss in consistency. Generally I may take them out more so in fear of some heavy grave hate. I'm not sure burn is the right matchup to do so however.
I guess the real question is what match ups would this version be better in than a more direct build, and why?
What is he blocking? He can't flip until your turn 3 so if you block anything with greater than 1 power then he is going to die before you can do anything with him.
I don't think it would have mattered honestly since he could just have easily have targeted your first seer in response to your 2nd hulk trigger. I suppose maybe you could have gone for a hulk beat down plan but that pretty unlikely so I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.
Anyway I'm not really convinced about it yet so I figured I would bring it up for discussion. Any thoughts?
You can attack with Griselbrand anyway since Vengeance gives haste. Jace only starts helping vs aggro on turn 3 and effectively only nullifies 1 creature if even since -2 will only full stop some creatures and does nothing vs something like zoo, elves, merfolk or hatebears that plays many creatures, or something that uses much larger creatures like infect or bogles. Jace also does little against burn. Basically as I've stated before he is mostly just good in the late game and so belongs in a deck that is built to make it to the late game.
I don't think most of us are trying to completely dismiss your idea (or at least I am not) however there are some issues with at least your current build that we have noticed. When you are the person that came up with the idea, it makes you fairly biased towards it and makes it pretty difficult to see any issues. Basically you only see the upsides in perfect scenarios. I've won a few tournaments with the hulk deck before I found this thread and usually still did fairly decent with it when I wasn't experimenting too much.
Dark petition could work but I personally really like Mannequin as it gets past path to exile and many other little things quite nicely. Also if you don't have a way to kill the hulk then you are still left with a 6/6 that your opponent is basically not allowed to kill.