There is definitely a pretty common misconception that targeted removal is bad in Commander, especially among newer players. This couldn't be further from the truth however, especially the more competitive the group is. Personally, I never build a deck without at least 10+ targeted removal cards. Though a lot of the time, these cards can have overlapping effects, such as Reclamation Sage which can destroy artifacts/enchantments, but then can also be a body, is more easily tutorable, and feeds sacrifice outlets, etc.
All 3 Frontier sideevents at GP New Jersey fired with 11 players on Friday and 16+ on Saturday and Sunday. The format isn't the most popular but certainly isn't dead yet.
Having to say something like this doesn't really feel like a good justification. That's nothing against you, I just fear for the players of this format. This format was created by game stores, so it *feels* like, to me anyway, that it was a ploy just to sell old standard cards that weren't good enough for Modern.
I really don't mean to bash the format; I'm happy for those that play it and I'd never want to take it away from anyone, but it certainly does look like a grim investment at this point.
I feel like half the reason a preordain unban seems frightening is the quantity of one blue cantrips. If that's the case they should just ban visions and unban preordain. Would combo decks having scry before draw instead really push them that hard?
This isn't necessarily directed to you, but rather to anyone who is worried about Preordain. Also, apologies if someone responded to this question already and I missed it on a previous page.
Please point to the specific combo decks which Preordain might break. Include their metagame shares currently and/or historically. Then, please explain why those decks are problematic given those metagame shares.
I ask this question because I hear lots of worry about decks like Storm, Cheeri0s, Griselbrand, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, etc., but all of those decks seem to lack the metagame share to be problematic. Sure, Preordain would boost them, but it seems very unlikely that they would receive huge boosts relative to the other decks which benefited from Preordain. In my experience, fear of Preordain is based on a largely unsupported, general fear of blue-based combo decks that aren't really that bad in Modern these days.
I'd just like to mention, that these same "fears of combo decks rising to power" where shared with the topic of an Ancestral Visions unban, and just look at how that all turned out.
SFM and Twin unbanned at the same time, so you are worried about it in a Jeskai shell??
We had Jeskai Twin-Blade with Jace and Preordain in standard! How bad could it possibly be? Be real.
He said of one of the most degenerate decks in standard history.
I wasnt playing then, so please forgive my ignorance, was just trying to find the actual issue/concern. :]
There was indeed a time when inquisition, bolt, colonnade, tarn, preordain, batterskull, SFM, Twin, Exarch, and Jace all occupied the same standard. It went about as well as you might imagine.
Glorious. I like my Standard like I like my Modern. Degenerate.
Amonkhet is supposed to be an Egyptian set. Egyptians used rune. Mother of Runes reprint confirmed.
But really, I would love Mom in the format. She creates some interesting board states.
Hmmm. No, they did not. They used hieroglyphs.
In all fairness, they are visually very similar, and WotC could easily make Mom fit in the set flavorfully (especially with that gorgeous Terese Neilson art). I've been saying this for sometime as well; Mom needs some Modern love.
People play Serum Visions in high quantities because it is the only way for blue decks to have any semblance of consistency while opponents are allowed to cast better Ponders and one-mana Impulses. Most people agree that Serum in a vacuum is a bad card that only sees play out of necessity.
And yet Serum Visions sees play in more decks than Ancient Stirrings or Oath of Nissa. So no matter how broken you try to make Stirrings sound, calling it a one-mana Impulse, SV is still better.
SV in a vacuum is a bad card, if your "vacuum" transcends format boundaries and extends to the realm of Brainstorm or even Ancestral Recall. If your "vacuum" consists solely of what's in Modern, excluding the banned cards, it's a great card. It wouldn't be among the top 10 spells otherwise.
Do you think shocklands are bad cards that only see play out of necessity?
Look at it this way: Shocklands are on par with modern's power level, whereas the Alpha duals are too strong, and the BFZ Duals aren't strong enough (seriously, stop using this analogy).
Serum Visions is not powerful enough for Modern. Preordain is a much more "on-par" blue 1 mana cantrip for Modern's power level.
Does anyone go around talking up about how Shocklands are "sooooo goooood" and how they'd be used in addition to regular duals in Legacy/Vintage because of that fact?
I'm not complaining about Serum Visions. I'm simply arguing that it is not "sooooo goooood", as claimed by "ashtonkutcher" before going on to essentially say why Serum Visions is good enough for Modern when it really isn't.
Shocklands are good enough however, making that analogy irrelevant.
Serum Visions ranks among the top 10 most played spells in Modern. Clearly it's good. The amount of consistency it provides is well worth the 4 slots.
If the best cantrip in Modern was Peek then you'd be justified in calling it terrible, because decks wouldn't play 4 Peek, they'd put 1 land and 3 other spells in those slots instead. But that isn't the case with SV. So SV is good. So good.
Shocklands and SV are powerful cards in Modern. I don't care about them being too weak in Legacy because we're in the Modern forum.
I'm arguing against the implied justification that we don't need something better, like Preordain, in Modern. Quit bringing up Legacy, as I was just countering the comment regarding it. Serum Visions is bad, and so is Sleight of Hand, and Peek. All of the blue 1 mana can trips in Modern currently, are bad. We need better. Unban Preordain.
That is all I'm saying. So try to understand the context of the argument.
Serum Visions is literally only ever played when there is absolutely no possible better option.
You're in a format where people play shocklands because dual lands are not allowed. Get over it.
Does anyone go around talking up about how Shocklands are "sooooo goooood" and how they'd be used in addition to regular duals in Legacy/Vintage because of that fact?
I'm not complaining about Serum Visions. I'm simply arguing that it is not "sooooo goooood", as claimed by "ashtonkutcher" before going on to essentially say why Serum Visions is good enough for Modern when it really isn't.
Shocklands are good enough however, making that analogy irrelevant.
I was playing an Angus MacKenzie Flicker-Themed deck, against a Phage the Untouchable deck, and a Zedruu the Greathearted deck. Already, this is an absolute party of a match up. The Phage player manages to get their Commander out thanks to Command Beacon, but the Zedruu player steals it. Over the course of a few more turns, the Zedruu player actually donates Phage to me, and the Phage player ultimates Sorin Markov, taking over my turn. He sees that I have Conjurer's Closet in my hand, and casts it. He then proceeded to use it to flicker Phage.
Serum Visions is literally only ever played when there is absolutely no possible better option. Calling it "sooooo goooood" is a nigh-insulting overstatement.
Initially having come from Legacy into Modern years and years ago, I felt downright dirty having to play Serum Visions in Twin when I had gotten so used to Brainstorm and Ponder (and back then, I never ever encountered anyone using Serum Visions or even Preordain. It was always JUST Brainstorm, and 1 or 2 Ponders).
So from these so far, i honestly don't care about enhancements.
1 rec sage/flickerwisp seems good enough.
Problem is that these Enchantments can and will outright end the game. If you're just *hoping* not to run into them or that you'll draw your one of answer, you're not gonna have a great time. Sounds like you've made up your mind though.
Kaalia is not an angel. She is a good option though. I second her or Atraxa.
As a hidden gem? Really? Mangara is basically a white staple in the format.
Having to say something like this doesn't really feel like a good justification. That's nothing against you, I just fear for the players of this format. This format was created by game stores, so it *feels* like, to me anyway, that it was a ploy just to sell old standard cards that weren't good enough for Modern.
I really don't mean to bash the format; I'm happy for those that play it and I'd never want to take it away from anyone, but it certainly does look like a grim investment at this point.
I'd just like to mention, that these same "fears of combo decks rising to power" where shared with the topic of an Ancestral Visions unban, and just look at how that all turned out.
Due to this, I'd almost not be surprised to see Emrakul, the Promised End and Smuggler's Copter get panic-banned in Modern.
Glorious. I like my Standard like I like my Modern. Degenerate.
In all fairness, they are visually very similar, and WotC could easily make Mom fit in the set flavorfully (especially with that gorgeous Terese Neilson art). I've been saying this for sometime as well; Mom needs some Modern love.
Look at it this way: Shocklands are on par with modern's power level, whereas the Alpha duals are too strong, and the BFZ Duals aren't strong enough (seriously, stop using this analogy).
Serum Visions is not powerful enough for Modern. Preordain is a much more "on-par" blue 1 mana cantrip for Modern's power level.
I'm arguing against the implied justification that we don't need something better, like Preordain, in Modern. Quit bringing up Legacy, as I was just countering the comment regarding it. Serum Visions is bad, and so is Sleight of Hand, and Peek. All of the blue 1 mana can trips in Modern currently, are bad. We need better. Unban Preordain.
That is all I'm saying. So try to understand the context of the argument.
Does anyone go around talking up about how Shocklands are "sooooo goooood" and how they'd be used in addition to regular duals in Legacy/Vintage because of that fact?
I'm not complaining about Serum Visions. I'm simply arguing that it is not "sooooo goooood", as claimed by "ashtonkutcher" before going on to essentially say why Serum Visions is good enough for Modern when it really isn't.
Shocklands are good enough however, making that analogy irrelevant.
I was playing an Angus MacKenzie Flicker-Themed deck, against a Phage the Untouchable deck, and a Zedruu the Greathearted deck. Already, this is an absolute party of a match up. The Phage player manages to get their Commander out thanks to Command Beacon, but the Zedruu player steals it. Over the course of a few more turns, the Zedruu player actually donates Phage to me, and the Phage player ultimates Sorin Markov, taking over my turn. He sees that I have Conjurer's Closet in my hand, and casts it. He then proceeded to use it to flicker Phage.
Way to necro a two year old thread with this post lol...
With that said, it is a good one; I hope the mods let it stay around.
Initially having come from Legacy into Modern years and years ago, I felt downright dirty having to play Serum Visions in Twin when I had gotten so used to Brainstorm and Ponder (and back then, I never ever encountered anyone using Serum Visions or even Preordain. It was always JUST Brainstorm, and 1 or 2 Ponders).
Problem is that these Enchantments can and will outright end the game. If you're just *hoping* not to run into them or that you'll draw your one of answer, you're not gonna have a great time. Sounds like you've made up your mind though.