In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
IMO Loam required a lot of build around and I could see myself doing it if I cut Delver and put more lands (notably: Ghost Quarter or Tec Edge). I think it's one of those cards that demands play as a 3 or 4 of to get the desired effect
Thinking aloud here, but that last slot could really use something with the versatility level of a Kolaghan's Command. Plays great with Snapcaster and most of its modes are super relevant. Things we have available in those colors that posses a similar level of flexibility: Sultai Charm (mana inefficient), Simic Charm (low impact), Golgari Charm (might actually be pretty good):
G. charm functions as a:
Sweeper vs. Lingering Souls or Empty the Warrens tokens, as well as Bl/Inkmoth Nexus and mana dorks.
Blows up Blood Moon, Bitterblossom, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel
Surprise regenerate against most black based removal, Supreme Verdict, combat damage, direct damage, Abupt Decay, Oblivion Stone, etc.
I agree with the above. A late scooze is fantastic and can quickly outgrow most opposition. Tasigur can come down early if needed but otherwise I find he's better late also when he becomes a card advantage engine.
Have you found 2 research to be too many at times? I've always been happy to see the singleton but I wonder about running 2. Considering trying it in place of a cantrip.
Good point with the Tasigur activation - I forgot to mention that. Scooze also pairs well with Tasigur's ability, allowing you eat the "dead" cards you don't want the opponent to give back to you before you activate the Bananaman. Depending on the state of the game, this could be another copy of Tasigur, Thoughtseize or Inquisition, etc. Or if you've got that ONE card you REALLY need, Scooze can eat around it.
Yes, I have found 2 Research to be too many - not sure what to cut it for though.
I have a hard enough time justifying running Garruk, Primal Hunter in the SB with its casting cost (still don't like it). I guess if you really wanted to you could add some Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth but our mana base is already so fragile and at that point I agree you should probably just be running B/G.
Thanks for your list, dominus. Personally I think Tarmogoyf is the best card in the deck, and turn 1 discard into turn 2 goyf is a beating. I do kind of like the idea of diversifying the threats in the deck so we don't get as blown out by Rest in Peace and Leyline of the Void. The problem is that there aren't a lot of low-cost threats in our color pie that are up to the power level of Tarmogoyf, Tasigur, the Golden Fang, or Snapcaster Mage. Several examples of possibilities, some of which has been mentioned:
Kitchen Finks - Another good form of life recovery to complement Thragtusk and an annoying card to deal with outside of Path to Exile. Has a bit of synergy with Damnation. The obvious issue is the prohibitive mana cost. I think Twilight Mire is necessary if you are running this.
Delver of Secrets - I think a Sultai Delver list could work, but it would look very different to this deck.
Vendilion Clique - Already played in many SB. I'm not really keen on running in maindeck with so many Lingering Souls and Lightning Bolt floating around, but if left unanswered will end the game quickly.
As much as I worry about anti-GY strategies, I don't think it's worth sacrificing the raw power of this deck's core creatures in order to protect yourself from it.
I think Ashiok serves the role of alternative win-con fairly well, but I wish we had something that fought a larger portion of the meta.
What are people's thoughts on Murmurs from Beyond over Compulsive Research? It's instant speed, will always net you 2 cards, and fuels Delve. I find when -2'ing Jace I am almost always choosing the 2 card pile largely to ensure I am gaining card advantage over an opponent with whom I am hopefully mostly trading 1-for-1s
I'm thinking this deck is in a decent position right now. It has a lot of game against Twin and Junk, which I think will be one of the two more popular choices at the upcoming GP in Charlotte. One card in particular I am worried about is Collected Company. It's a very scary card if it's resolved against us, even if it just for value. I am currently packing a pretty heavy removal suite with 2 Damnation, but I know this is the one card I am going to have to always have on my radar.
IMO:
You don't need a Goyf/Tasigur/Angler type of card if you have a few creature slots open. Scavenging Ooze can fill some of Finks' role with lifegain, while also being good at fighting opposing GY strategies. It addresses some weaknesses in many of the builds we are seeing today that don't run it.
Compulsive Research in the Fabiano build is better as he built it with a good quantity of land to pitch to the discard clause. I'm running 2 Research as they are good in both the attrition and control matchups.
If you are worried about Collected Company, find room in the main or side for Stubborn Denial - the deck is running 8 Ferocious enablers; by dealing with their namesake card, you rob them of a lot of their explosiveness. Scavenging Ooze also really good at fighting their persist creatures.
since we're on the subject of a Delver version (which probably should have it's own thread, but the idea came up here):
Given the build and the reliance on having Instants or Sorceries to flip Delver, the 2 Spellskites may be traded for meta-dependent spells.
Sudden Death seems like a great card against Twin (although I am seeing people board out the combo more and more for post-board games) Golgari Charm is an upgrade in a lot of our matchups and would never leave home without at least 2 in the 75. It is: a low level sweeper against decks like Affinity, Infect, and Bogles; also functions as a way to save your dudes from Abrupt Decay and Oblivion Stone; finally, it battles against Blood Moons and other enchantments.
I am starting to like Rain of Tears more and more - while it lacks the 2/2 body that Fulminator Mage does, it flips Delver and is recurrable with Snapcaster.
Feed the Clan is obviously great vs. Burn as it becomes a virtual Time Walk - it's also decent against swarmy aggro decks and buys us a precious turn or two to stabilize and draw a sweeper.
Board wipes are nice, and I have been fond of Drown in Sorrow recently.
Posting my list for critique and assistance. Please offer either if you feel you have anything constructive to offer.
After trying out and tweaking Fabiano's list, I've found that it doesn't fit my playstyle and will be going to something I have had more success with in the past. Here it is -
The deck plays out in a similar manner to UR Delver when Treasure Cruise was available - but instead of chaining cantrips, threats, and answers to power out a Treasure Cruise, this deck aims to attack the opponent's hand and board presence, then resolve a fatty and protect it with counters to mop up the game.
Maindeck Stubborn Denials give the deck some great Game 1 action against traditionally tough matchups like Burn and Tron - unlike traditional BGx shells which struggle in this pairing. It also protects your big Delve dudes (Tasigur and Tombstalker) from Path/Terminate/Go for the Throat/Dismember.
I'm not sold on Tombstalker as a threat, but I do love that he flies over a lot of bad guys. Unlike Grixis Delve(r), I'm not aiming to rush out a 5 power guy on turn 2, but rather grind out advantage then drop a bomb.
A couple things I would like some help with -
I want to run another Compulsive Research. Every time I resolve it, it has been fantastic - especially since I aim to make 1 for 1 trades for the first 3-4 turns of the game - the ability to pull ahead in cards after exhausting all my opponent's resources should help this deck achieve a little more late game 'reach.' Towards the end of the game, it allows me to trade a land (or two irrelevant discard spells) and a card for 3 fresh cards. What should I cut for it?
Is 12 threats too little? What if I cut the third Tasigur for the 2nd Compulsive Research? I am thinking I can scrape by with 11 since I have ways to protect the big dudes.
Is there a way to fit some number of Squelch in here? Is Squelch even worth playing? Among other things, being able to capitalize on fetchland/Tectonic Edge/planeswalker/Expedition Map activations on top of replacing itself seems nice, and it yields another card in the bin to delve with.
Thanks for your help and I'm looking forward to reading some of your insights!
Agreed - there's no reason for Delver. Yes, there are those auto win games where it flips on turn 2 and the other team just can't deal win it, but if Delver is our gameplan, we are vastly inferior to the RUG and Grixis versions - and probably the less explosive Jeskai builds as well - because we don't have access to Lightning Bolt for late gsme-ending ability.
Played in a PPTQ yesterday and didn't do so hot, but wanted to share a couple of notes.
Played a single copy of Jace and was always happy to see it. His -2 ability got me out of a lot of holes.
I had cut my Spell Snares and wasn't using Damnation main. All my losses came down to either a 2cmc creature going all the way, or the opponent flooding the board (with cards or tokens) and I wasn't able to answer with my 1 for 1 removal.
I am now considering a version without discard, utilizing Stubborn Denials in their place to protect our guys or disrupt the other team. Any thoughts on this? I know Caleb Durward posted a list on CFB that was focused on this interaction.
Goofs are critical to the deck. I suppose Hooting Mandrills are a serviceable replacement, but they hinder the Snapcaster synergy in our deck, and they lose to opposing Goyfs, Tasigurs, and Rhinos.
Speaking of Snapcaster, it is incredible - a resolved Snappy temporarily extends our hand size by X, where X is the number of instants and sorceries in the bin. I'm running 3 and I'm thinking of filling out the set; T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Mana Leak, T3 Snappy flashing back Thoughtseize T4 Cryptic counter/bounce Snappy seems like a good line of play to me.
As far as Think Twice - it's an okay card. What would you cut for it? I would rather have more answers or threats than card draw. Serum Visions is the only thing I could think of that comes close to getting cut, but IMO it is worlds better than TT as it enables you to manipulate your next two draw steps.
Hello everyone.
I'm been testing this deck a lot (Fabiano list) and I wanted to get people's opinion on the abzan match up and what to sideboard.
I originally thought to sideboard out
4x serum visions
1x golgari charm
to bring in the following:
1x thoughtseize
1x Sower of Temptation
1x Damnation
1x Batterskull
1x Course of Death's Hold
(No fulminator mages)
I typically aim for a discard spell/mana leak opening to take their haymakers and use abrupt decays to kill the low cmc stuff, but I found the late game top deck wars kill you when you draw a thoughtseize/IOK. Has anyone had any good experience in this match up. It's about 50/50 for me, but I think it should be vastly in our favour. Thanks.
I approach postboard games as if it was the mirror match. I would board out discard as the games typically reach a state where one or both players are playing off the top of their deck.
Bring in Fulminators and keep Golgari Charm (you can use it to save a Goyf from Abrupt Decay or blow out their Lingering Souls tokens). If you see Confidants and/or Hierarchs, I would bring in the Disfigures - these also have the fringe benefit of helping you win Goyf/Tasigur/Rhino stalemates. Sower is also fantastic against them as they really only have Path or Murderous Cut to answer.
If you don't own Fulminator Mages, I think Rain of Tears is acceptable as they can be recurred with Snapcaster. Their manlands are definitely a threat that we need to answer. Definitely keep the Serum Visions as card quality is very important in this pairing.
I'm not sold on Batterskull in this meta as it doesn't beat a Siege Rhino by itself, but it's a great top deck on an empty board.
IMO:
You need the Goyfs. They are just too good, especially if you are playing Stubborn Denial. 8 ferocious enablers in the deck and Stubborn Denials in hand significantly improves your Tron, Burn, and Control matchups.
If you want to play Scavenging Ooze, I would recommend at least one copy of Twilight Mire - it has the added incentive of making your Abrupt Decays easier to cast.
I've put in a lot of time with differing builds in these colors. I started with Delver variants, but I remember doing one with Bitterblossoms and planeswalkers (I was a 5cc player when Faeries was in Standard and remember the frustration of trying to battle through an army of flying 1/1s) and even a goofy brew with Death's Shadow, Urborg, and Funeral Charm (swamp walking 10/10 FTW!) but Tarmogoyf and discard have always been the base of the deck. There are essentially two 'engines' at play - the BGx based attrition game backed by efficient creature beats and instant speed interaction with Snapcaster recursion for long-game value.
It follows then, that some of the most memorable wins are when the two sides synergize seamlessly: against UR Twin in a game 3, I had a Goyf and a Tar Pit on board facing down a Spellskite and Pestermite with the opponent at 10 life. Opponent passes turn, and I end step Dismember his Mite. He pays the mana to redirect to Skite. I Snap back the Dismember we interact with some counters, I win the counter spell war, kill his other goon and then untap and bash for the win.
I would think most of us play for that "a-ha!" moment where we know we have the win in hand; this deck gives us a ton of options (both build and play wise) that if used properly, can help us outmaneuver our opponents.
Pact is excellent and plays very well with Snapcaster.
If we add Deprive, we probably want to shave down our Abrupt Decay count - I've been toying with the idea of a version running Deprive, Delver, and Shackles but I can't get the mana to be consistent enough.
I'm not sure I like Spreading Seas; in my experience, it's only a temporary fix until Tron gets their Oblivion Stone online.
I've moved to a version with 2 Cliques main in place of Ashiok and cut an Inquisition for another Tasigur. I'm not in love with the build right now. Being able to apply solid pressure turns 3-6 is critical to how this deck plays out, and planeswalkers are kind of slow.
Nice work! What made you stay away from Damnation in the main? I am actually running 2x Damnation MB and 1x Consume the Meek (I had no idea that was an instant). We have a creature heave meta.
There are a few reasons -
I'm only running 20 lands. The build originally started as a Delver tempo build based off what the UR Delver decks were doing and I kind of stuck with that.
I'm running more discard, more counters, and spot removal - this allows the deck to have "autopilot" openers like T1 discard, T2 discard into Spell Snare, T3 Mana Leak or drop a threat if the coast is clear. It also gives me a little more defense against manlands and creatures with Flash.
I'm not sure if Damnation is completely necessary in a well-distributed metagame. Besides Affinity and Fish (where Damnation is possibly too slow) the rest of the format relies on one or two highly efficient threats to carry the opponent to a win.
I like the idea of Consume the Meek, particularly in a build with plays a higher count of Delve-able threats like Hooting Mandrills, Tasigur, or even Tombstalker. The idea of a one-sided Wrath effect is intriguing, especially since it wipes out activated manlands.
In the cycling aspect of the charm lies it's versatility. Digging two deep instead of three (compulsive research) seems like a small price to pay for the flexibility to blow up tarmogoyf, tasigur, confidant, shackles, even shut down twin combo (Pulse can't, being a sorcery) and even against tokens where you might rather have a Pulse, the charm can still hit their anthems. Also pops any Sword that might be cast-equip-swung in the same turn. It's just about being versatile. If you know you're diving into a meta of tron, affinity, then maybe sultai charm isn't the right call.
Running a 1/1 split of Pulse & Charm feels right to me. But the ease to cast of Research can't be argued. And since this deck doesn't need a high land count to take over the game, Research will surely generate a +1 CA
Believe me, I love Sultai Charm and all of its modes certainly have merit in the meta - I want it to have a home in this deck but I don't believe it provides enough value. You want cheap, instant speed removal vs. Twin (one reason why Slaughter Pact is so good), if you nuke a Goyf, Tasigur, or Confidant you are losing tempo; if you are playing Fabiano's build, you aren't answering manlands except for the X-moth Nexuses in Affinity (and still losing tempo in that process).
Modally, you are comparing this card to a Go for the Throat; Naturalize; loot effect. Arguably, these are at best fringe mainboard cards, possibly sideboard studs. If Sultai Charm were that good, wouldn't people be running 2 or 3 in their sides in lieu of a total of 4-5 copies of each of these individual effects? This would conserve valuable sideboard space but the mana efficiency of these effects is important too.
Edit: Comparison may prove useful. Last time I checked, Esper Charm is probably the best 3 mana tri-colored charm in Modern. With it, you are getting: Divination or Mind Rot and half of a Disenchant. The first draw and discard modes are probably the most played, clock in at 3cmc in value and also at instant speed.
Is compulsive research outshined by sultai charm? Or is the general consensus that the triple color requirement is too steep?
I personally think that Sultai Charm is just better than Compulsive Research if you can support the 3 colors and it is also better than Maelstrom Pulse if your meta does not have a lot of Lingering Souls.
Fulminator Mage is a great card for obvious reasons, but is Rain of Tears better here because it can be recurred with Snapcaster Mage?
I see Sultai Charm as a harder to cast Putrefy. It's too slow and expensive for the decks you need it for.
Sultai Charm is more like a harder-to-cast, instant-speed Maelstrom Pulse that doesn't hit Siege Rhino, planeswalkers, or swarms of tokens, but can be cycled if necessary.
So it doesn't answer what the biggest threats are in a deck that is popular in the metagame. It doesn't shore up our Tron matchup. It's slow against Affinity and Fish, and to a smaller degree Zoo (if anyone is playing that anymore) - against the latter three decks, it exchanges card for card at a mana disadvantage so chances are we are already behind on board. The only good application I see it for consistently is Twin (targeting a Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite) using the mono colored creature mode when a Spellskite is on board, or nailing a creature in the BUG mirror. In both cases, I would much rather run Go for the Throat or Dismember.
Don't mean for this to come off as an attack at all - I just don't see how Sultsi Charm is a good metagame choice right now.
Also, here is my list I played a few weeks ago. I T8ed a 40 man Modern Event with it:
Didn't really think about my sideboard - I did a quick survey of the room and most of it was pretty hastily cobbled together. Monastery Siege and GftT sucked.
I'm always tweaking this deck and it has been pretty good for me so far. I'd like to find room for Stubborn Denial as it helps the Tron matchup a lot.
Quick tourney rundown:
Round 1: UR Twin
G1 I start pulling ahead but forget to pay for A snapcastered Pact. Hit my head on the table and keep going
G2 resolve Jace and won.
G3 Goyf and clique beats and win
Round 2: pseudo mirror (Fabianos list)
These games were grindy; I don't recall details too much but Thragtusk was though to battle through. Jace on an empty board on -2 got me answers I needed.
Round 3: jeskai flash
This was a touch matchup-despite their creature count, Ashiok blanked on threats quite a few turns. I got a clique in play from his deck that died pretty quick. I lost to an Ajani Vengeant.
G2 same thing but got blown out by a Threads if Disloyalty on a Goyf and I couldn't get a Decay in time.
Round 4: fish
G1 he gets a great hand and I for on t4.
G2 and 3 I draw all kinds of removal and stall out long enough for a clique to go all the way.
Round 5: Tron
ID into t8
I lost pretty quickly in the top 8 after getting stuck on two lands both games.
Sorry for the shorthand, I wrote this whole thing on my iPad.
Tasigur was player in one Legacy list at the SCG event this past weekend.
I would say he caps at $15. Part of the reason why he's so high right now is because of low availability. You're seeing some copies on TCGplayer for under $9 as of this posting.
I thought I would share a list I am currently working on and solicit some help with it. To start, this was a list with Delver of Secrets, but I found that it was both too inconsistent and would be outclassed way too early in the game. Over time, I experimented with different card draw engines and synergies, going from lists heavier on artifacts and Thirst for Knowledge to lists heavier on Sorceries/Instants and shorter on lands to help flip Delver.
If anyone wants to help and collaborate with me on turning this into a primer, that would be fun as well. The current list is as follows:
A couple synergies if they were not apparent already -
Lands
The checkland (Hinterland Harbor and filter land Sunken Ruins) are there to help make playing Deprive suck less. Sunken Ruins also helps with the mana consistency to generate BB for Tombstalker.
Draw Engine
The draw engine with Thirst for Knowledge and Dig Through Time is based off the idea of being able to dump off/filter through chaff to help power a bigger Goyf or a cheaper Delve spell. Topdecking a Thoughtseize late game is an awful feeling, but getting a Snapcaster Mage to run another Thirst back out to get some relevant cards seems good. Darkblast should be highlighted here as well - Dredge has good synergy with instant speed card draw and it also helps make our Delve spells cheaper.
To me, Dig is a better card to play (at least in this deck) for a few reasons:
Instant speed - I don't feel bad running it EOT for 2UU, whereas with Cruise, I feel bad if I'm casting it for anything more than U.
Similarly, I don't get "punished" for not playing it on my turn.
Playing it for more than UU helps ensure my Goyfs don't suck and my Snapcasters have something to target.
Generally, better card quality and deck consistency
Better ability to find SB hate cards in games 2 and 3
Removal -
I like Abrupt Decay a lot as it can hit annoying artifacts and enchantments, too. It's very flexible but still inferior to Lightning Bolt, which can act as creature removal or go for the win; Decay can act as removal and prevent a loss. Darkblast is great as a Delve enabler, helping your Goyf on Goyf action, removing mana dorks, and pretty darn solid vs. UR Delver decks.
The other two removal spots are there for chunky monkeys and manlands.
Flex Spot -
This will probably be one of the more contentious cards in the list. Sultai Charm is like a literal Swiss army knife - a more/less restrictive Doom Blade, more expensive Naturalize, and a looter effect all in one. I think what's important to remember is that it can still hit a fatty creature that neither Decay nor Dismember can handle, an Enchantment/Artifact over 3 cost, or if both modes are dead you can see some new cards and help cast another Delve spell/make Goyf bigger.
Counters -
Sometimes there's just stuff that we can't deal with and for that we have counters. Deprive can be amazingly bad but it is great against Treasure Cruise and tons better than Mana Leak late game. I see it as a good middle ground that reconciles what Remand is good against and what Mana Leak is good against.
Discard -
Running B is a good reason to run targeted discard and we have quite a bit of it. I've settled on a 3/3 split until the meta settles down a bit as red-based burn decks are still pretty active.
Creatures -
Aside from not playing Delver, I feel these are the best creatures available in these colors for this deck.
I also tested the following:
Courser of Kruphix slow; lifegain effect was great and seeing the top card was a neat interaction with Darkblast in the bin. Casting a Cruise with a Courser in play and a Darkblast in the GY felt more powerful than casting a Cruise by itself (this obviously applies only if you choose Cruise over Dig)
Scavenging Ooze slow as well; great against Pod with persist triggers on the stack but the G mana investment was very heavy. In a Bolt-infested meta, you are paying 1GGG to keep a creature in play - it's like a green Cryptic Command with less effect.
Vampire Nighthawk great card, but the decks you want it to stick around against are the decks it is the worst against (Lightning Bolt decks).
In the end, the spots occupied by Goyf and Clique are solid; Snapcaster is debatable but being able to get extra value out of a hate card in post-board games is incredibly valuable.
I felt that Tombstalker is the finisher this deck needs; being able to cast him for BB with protection in hand, then untapping with him put the opponent on a quick clock.
A couple Matchup thoughts -
Pod - I tested against one of the GP Madrid decks without Path to Exile, no Qasali Pridemage and without the Melira combo. Ttough G1 if they get the pieces they need in play. Gavony Township and Persist creatures are a pain in the rear. Post-board, it gets much easier with Artifact hate. I tried Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver against them for a few games and she was nuts. I realized once I was able to deal with their Pod, they downgrade to a good creature deck; pacing them and then powering out a
Burn - rough G1 but bigger creatures prevailed. 1-for-1 their critters with removal and try to save counters for Bolts-and-Buddies. Post-boarded Feed The Clan always resolved for 10 life.
Affinity - close G1 but I wasn't working with an experienced pilot. All of this deck's removal is live against them and there's more pain to bring post-board.
Tron - awful matchup for this deck and post board doesn't make it any better. Update: I have recently tried Rain of Tears. The casting cost sucks, but flashing it back with a Snapcaster is strong.
That's all I got for now (11/24/14 11:30pm) - I'll add more later. Please feel free to contribute and maybe we can make this deck a "thing!"
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacomb
3 Darkslick Shore
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Breeding Pool
2 Island
1 Forest
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Serum Vision
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
1 Golgari Charm
2 Feed the Clan
1 Spellskite
3 Death's Shadow
1 Stubborn Denial
1 Flashfreeze
1 Deglamer
1 Golgari Charm
3 Disfigure
2 Drown in Sorrow
In the end, having access to targeted discard remains one of the best things we can do when playing black, so I decided to play some Inquisitions. It also fuels your graveyard for Tasigur or Angler.
Depending on how my local meta settles, I may be more willing to run Darkblast main - I believe this card is particularly strong vs Delver decks (RUG/Grixis) and Affinity, but also has some fringe benefits when matching up against Collected Company decks (hits their mana dorks). It has great synergy when trying to pump out some delve fatties and helps break up Tarmogoyf/Tasigur/Rhino or Angler/Angler stalemates. Not sure what I would cut but I would start with the singleton Golgari Charm and move towards Slaughter Pact and Dismember if I need a third.
In the end, this build is probably not optimal - it's a hybrid between RUG/Grixis Delver tempo decks and GBx attrition so it suffers from a lack of focus. It's not running the 1-mana cantrips that power Delver decks and am essentially giving up Gitaxian Probe for Inquisition of Kozilek and Thought Scour for Spell Snare. This basically gives me pretty good percentages to have an answer problematic 2-drops in my opening 7 (Tarmogoyf, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Dark Confidant, Cranial Plating, Arcbound Ravager, Voice of Resurgence, etc.) and along with Deprive, can help prevent Liliana of the Veil from hitting the board.
Not sure if I like it as it is, but if anyone wants to collaborate with me on this project I'd be glad for the help.
Thinking aloud here, but that last slot could really use something with the versatility level of a Kolaghan's Command. Plays great with Snapcaster and most of its modes are super relevant. Things we have available in those colors that posses a similar level of flexibility: Sultai Charm (mana inefficient), Simic Charm (low impact), Golgari Charm (might actually be pretty good):
G. charm functions as a:
Sweeper vs. Lingering Souls or Empty the Warrens tokens, as well as Bl/Inkmoth Nexus and mana dorks.
Blows up Blood Moon, Bitterblossom, Splinter Twin, Eidolon of the Great Revel
Surprise regenerate against most black based removal, Supreme Verdict, combat damage, direct damage, Abupt Decay, Oblivion Stone, etc.
Good point with the Tasigur activation - I forgot to mention that. Scooze also pairs well with Tasigur's ability, allowing you eat the "dead" cards you don't want the opponent to give back to you before you activate the Bananaman. Depending on the state of the game, this could be another copy of Tasigur, Thoughtseize or Inquisition, etc. Or if you've got that ONE card you REALLY need, Scooze can eat around it.
Yes, I have found 2 Research to be too many - not sure what to cut it for though.
IMO:
You don't need a Goyf/Tasigur/Angler type of card if you have a few creature slots open. Scavenging Ooze can fill some of Finks' role with lifegain, while also being good at fighting opposing GY strategies. It addresses some weaknesses in many of the builds we are seeing today that don't run it.
Compulsive Research in the Fabiano build is better as he built it with a good quantity of land to pitch to the discard clause. I'm running 2 Research as they are good in both the attrition and control matchups.
If you are worried about Collected Company, find room in the main or side for Stubborn Denial - the deck is running 8 Ferocious enablers; by dealing with their namesake card, you rob them of a lot of their explosiveness. Scavenging Ooze also really good at fighting their persist creatures.
since we're on the subject of a Delver version (which probably should have it's own thread, but the idea came up here):
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Dismember
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Compulsive Research
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Serum Visions
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Breeding Pool
1 Overgrown Tomb
3 Disfigure
2 Feed the Clan
2 Rain of Tears
2 Golgari Charm
2 Spellskite
2 Drown in Sorrow
1 Negate
1 Flashfreeze
Given the build and the reliance on having Instants or Sorceries to flip Delver, the 2 Spellskites may be traded for meta-dependent spells.
Sudden Death seems like a great card against Twin (although I am seeing people board out the combo more and more for post-board games)
Golgari Charm is an upgrade in a lot of our matchups and would never leave home without at least 2 in the 75. It is: a low level sweeper against decks like Affinity, Infect, and Bogles; also functions as a way to save your dudes from Abrupt Decay and Oblivion Stone; finally, it battles against Blood Moons and other enchantments.
I am starting to like Rain of Tears more and more - while it lacks the 2/2 body that Fulminator Mage does, it flips Delver and is recurrable with Snapcaster.
Feed the Clan is obviously great vs. Burn as it becomes a virtual Time Walk - it's also decent against swarmy aggro decks and buys us a precious turn or two to stabilize and draw a sweeper.
Board wipes are nice, and I have been fond of Drown in Sorrow recently.
Posting my list for critique and assistance. Please offer either if you feel you have anything constructive to offer.
After trying out and tweaking Fabiano's list, I've found that it doesn't fit my playstyle and will be going to something I have had more success with in the past. Here it is -
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Watery Grave
1 Overgrown Tomb
2 Breeding Pool
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
2 Swamp
1 Forest
Creature
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Tombstalker
4 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Compulsive Research
4 Serum Vision
Instant
3 Deprive
3 Spell Snare
3 Stubborn Denial
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Feed the Clan
2 Spellskite
2 Nature's Claim
3 Disfigure
1 Drown in Sorrow
2 Golgari Charm
1 Duress
1 Negate
1 Extirpate
The deck plays out in a similar manner to UR Delver when Treasure Cruise was available - but instead of chaining cantrips, threats, and answers to power out a Treasure Cruise, this deck aims to attack the opponent's hand and board presence, then resolve a fatty and protect it with counters to mop up the game.
Maindeck Stubborn Denials give the deck some great Game 1 action against traditionally tough matchups like Burn and Tron - unlike traditional BGx shells which struggle in this pairing. It also protects your big Delve dudes (Tasigur and Tombstalker) from Path/Terminate/Go for the Throat/Dismember.
I'm not sold on Tombstalker as a threat, but I do love that he flies over a lot of bad guys. Unlike Grixis Delve(r), I'm not aiming to rush out a 5 power guy on turn 2, but rather grind out advantage then drop a bomb.
A couple things I would like some help with -
I want to run another Compulsive Research. Every time I resolve it, it has been fantastic - especially since I aim to make 1 for 1 trades for the first 3-4 turns of the game - the ability to pull ahead in cards after exhausting all my opponent's resources should help this deck achieve a little more late game 'reach.' Towards the end of the game, it allows me to trade a land (or two irrelevant discard spells) and a card for 3 fresh cards. What should I cut for it?
Is 12 threats too little? What if I cut the third Tasigur for the 2nd Compulsive Research? I am thinking I can scrape by with 11 since I have ways to protect the big dudes.
Is there a way to fit some number of Squelch in here? Is Squelch even worth playing? Among other things, being able to capitalize on fetchland/Tectonic Edge/planeswalker/Expedition Map activations on top of replacing itself seems nice, and it yields another card in the bin to delve with.
Thanks for your help and I'm looking forward to reading some of your insights!
Played in a PPTQ yesterday and didn't do so hot, but wanted to share a couple of notes.
Played a single copy of Jace and was always happy to see it. His -2 ability got me out of a lot of holes.
I had cut my Spell Snares and wasn't using Damnation main. All my losses came down to either a 2cmc creature going all the way, or the opponent flooding the board (with cards or tokens) and I wasn't able to answer with my 1 for 1 removal.
I am now considering a version without discard, utilizing Stubborn Denials in their place to protect our guys or disrupt the other team. Any thoughts on this? I know Caleb Durward posted a list on CFB that was focused on this interaction.
Speaking of Snapcaster, it is incredible - a resolved Snappy temporarily extends our hand size by X, where X is the number of instants and sorceries in the bin. I'm running 3 and I'm thinking of filling out the set; T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Mana Leak, T3 Snappy flashing back Thoughtseize T4 Cryptic counter/bounce Snappy seems like a good line of play to me.
As far as Think Twice - it's an okay card. What would you cut for it? I would rather have more answers or threats than card draw. Serum Visions is the only thing I could think of that comes close to getting cut, but IMO it is worlds better than TT as it enables you to manipulate your next two draw steps.
I approach postboard games as if it was the mirror match. I would board out discard as the games typically reach a state where one or both players are playing off the top of their deck.
Bring in Fulminators and keep Golgari Charm (you can use it to save a Goyf from Abrupt Decay or blow out their Lingering Souls tokens). If you see Confidants and/or Hierarchs, I would bring in the Disfigures - these also have the fringe benefit of helping you win Goyf/Tasigur/Rhino stalemates. Sower is also fantastic against them as they really only have Path or Murderous Cut to answer.
If you don't own Fulminator Mages, I think Rain of Tears is acceptable as they can be recurred with Snapcaster. Their manlands are definitely a threat that we need to answer. Definitely keep the Serum Visions as card quality is very important in this pairing.
I'm not sold on Batterskull in this meta as it doesn't beat a Siege Rhino by itself, but it's a great top deck on an empty board.
You need the Goyfs. They are just too good, especially if you are playing Stubborn Denial. 8 ferocious enablers in the deck and Stubborn Denials in hand significantly improves your Tron, Burn, and Control matchups.
If you want to play Scavenging Ooze, I would recommend at least one copy of Twilight Mire - it has the added incentive of making your Abrupt Decays easier to cast.
I've put in a lot of time with differing builds in these colors. I started with Delver variants, but I remember doing one with Bitterblossoms and planeswalkers (I was a 5cc player when Faeries was in Standard and remember the frustration of trying to battle through an army of flying 1/1s) and even a goofy brew with Death's Shadow, Urborg, and Funeral Charm (swamp walking 10/10 FTW!) but Tarmogoyf and discard have always been the base of the deck. There are essentially two 'engines' at play - the BGx based attrition game backed by efficient creature beats and instant speed interaction with Snapcaster recursion for long-game value.
It follows then, that some of the most memorable wins are when the two sides synergize seamlessly: against UR Twin in a game 3, I had a Goyf and a Tar Pit on board facing down a Spellskite and Pestermite with the opponent at 10 life. Opponent passes turn, and I end step Dismember his Mite. He pays the mana to redirect to Skite. I Snap back the Dismember we interact with some counters, I win the counter spell war, kill his other goon and then untap and bash for the win.
I would think most of us play for that "a-ha!" moment where we know we have the win in hand; this deck gives us a ton of options (both build and play wise) that if used properly, can help us outmaneuver our opponents.
If we add Deprive, we probably want to shave down our Abrupt Decay count - I've been toying with the idea of a version running Deprive, Delver, and Shackles but I can't get the mana to be consistent enough.
I'm not sure I like Spreading Seas; in my experience, it's only a temporary fix until Tron gets their Oblivion Stone online.
I've moved to a version with 2 Cliques main in place of Ashiok and cut an Inquisition for another Tasigur. I'm not in love with the build right now. Being able to apply solid pressure turns 3-6 is critical to how this deck plays out, and planeswalkers are kind of slow.
There are a few reasons -
I'm only running 20 lands. The build originally started as a Delver tempo build based off what the UR Delver decks were doing and I kind of stuck with that.
I'm running more discard, more counters, and spot removal - this allows the deck to have "autopilot" openers like T1 discard, T2 discard into Spell Snare, T3 Mana Leak or drop a threat if the coast is clear. It also gives me a little more defense against manlands and creatures with Flash.
I'm not sure if Damnation is completely necessary in a well-distributed metagame. Besides Affinity and Fish (where Damnation is possibly too slow) the rest of the format relies on one or two highly efficient threats to carry the opponent to a win.
I like the idea of Consume the Meek, particularly in a build with plays a higher count of Delve-able threats like Hooting Mandrills, Tasigur, or even Tombstalker. The idea of a one-sided Wrath effect is intriguing, especially since it wipes out activated manlands.
Believe me, I love Sultai Charm and all of its modes certainly have merit in the meta - I want it to have a home in this deck but I don't believe it provides enough value. You want cheap, instant speed removal vs. Twin (one reason why Slaughter Pact is so good), if you nuke a Goyf, Tasigur, or Confidant you are losing tempo; if you are playing Fabiano's build, you aren't answering manlands except for the X-moth Nexuses in Affinity (and still losing tempo in that process).
Modally, you are comparing this card to a Go for the Throat; Naturalize; loot effect. Arguably, these are at best fringe mainboard cards, possibly sideboard studs. If Sultai Charm were that good, wouldn't people be running 2 or 3 in their sides in lieu of a total of 4-5 copies of each of these individual effects? This would conserve valuable sideboard space but the mana efficiency of these effects is important too.
Edit: Comparison may prove useful. Last time I checked, Esper Charm is probably the best 3 mana tri-colored charm in Modern. With it, you are getting: Divination or Mind Rot and half of a Disenchant. The first draw and discard modes are probably the most played, clock in at 3cmc in value and also at instant speed.
Sultai Charm gets you a restricted Doom Blade or Go for the Throat, Naturalize, and a non-recurring Pulse of the Grid. The value of the effects - whether combined or on their own - just is not worth it.
I may try this! Let me know how it is.
So it doesn't answer what the biggest threats are in a deck that is popular in the metagame. It doesn't shore up our Tron matchup. It's slow against Affinity and Fish, and to a smaller degree Zoo (if anyone is playing that anymore) - against the latter three decks, it exchanges card for card at a mana disadvantage so chances are we are already behind on board. The only good application I see it for consistently is Twin (targeting a Deceiver Exarch or Pestermite) using the mono colored creature mode when a Spellskite is on board, or nailing a creature in the BUG mirror. In both cases, I would much rather run Go for the Throat or Dismember.
Don't mean for this to come off as an attack at all - I just don't see how Sultsi Charm is a good metagame choice right now.
Also, here is my list I played a few weeks ago. I T8ed a 40 man Modern Event with it:
4 misty rainforest
2 watery grave
2 breeding pool
1 overgrown tomb
2 creeping tar pit
1 twilight mire
1 island
1 swamp
2 forest
4 tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster mage
2 Tasigur, the golden fang
2 vendilion clique
1 jace, architect of thought
4 Thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 serum visions
3 spell snare
4 mana leak
4 abrupt decay
2 dismember
1 slaughter pact
1 murderous cut
2 sower of temptation
2 negate
2 Golgari charm
1 damnation
1 drown in sorrow
1 go for the throat
2 feed the clan
1 deglamer
2 monastery siege
Didn't really think about my sideboard - I did a quick survey of the room and most of it was pretty hastily cobbled together. Monastery Siege and GftT sucked.
I'm always tweaking this deck and it has been pretty good for me so far. I'd like to find room for Stubborn Denial as it helps the Tron matchup a lot.
Quick tourney rundown:
Round 1: UR Twin
G1 I start pulling ahead but forget to pay for A snapcastered Pact. Hit my head on the table and keep going
G2 resolve Jace and won.
G3 Goyf and clique beats and win
Round 2: pseudo mirror (Fabianos list)
These games were grindy; I don't recall details too much but Thragtusk was though to battle through. Jace on an empty board on -2 got me answers I needed.
Round 3: jeskai flash
This was a touch matchup-despite their creature count, Ashiok blanked on threats quite a few turns. I got a clique in play from his deck that died pretty quick. I lost to an Ajani Vengeant.
G2 same thing but got blown out by a Threads if Disloyalty on a Goyf and I couldn't get a Decay in time.
Round 4: fish
G1 he gets a great hand and I for on t4.
G2 and 3 I draw all kinds of removal and stall out long enough for a clique to go all the way.
Round 5: Tron
ID into t8
I lost pretty quickly in the top 8 after getting stuck on two lands both games.
Sorry for the shorthand, I wrote this whole thing on my iPad.
I see Sultai Charm as a harder to cast Putrefy. It's too slow and expensive for the decks you need it for.
I would say he caps at $15. Part of the reason why he's so high right now is because of low availability. You're seeing some copies on TCGplayer for under $9 as of this posting.
I thought I would share a list I am currently working on and solicit some help with it. To start, this was a list with Delver of Secrets, but I found that it was both too inconsistent and would be outclassed way too early in the game. Over time, I experimented with different card draw engines and synergies, going from lists heavier on artifacts and Thirst for Knowledge to lists heavier on Sorceries/Instants and shorter on lands to help flip Delver.
If anyone wants to help and collaborate with me on turning this into a primer, that would be fun as well. The current list is as follows:
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
2 Breeding Pool
2 Watery Grave
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Hinterland Harbor
1 Overgrown Tomb
Draw Engine
3 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Dig Through Time
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Dismember
2 Darkblast
1 Doom Blade
Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
3 Deprive
Targeted Discard
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
Creatures
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tombstalker
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Feed the Clan
2 Naturalize
1 Flashfreeze
1 Negate
7 Opinions Welcome
A couple synergies if they were not apparent already -
Lands
The checkland (Hinterland Harbor and filter land Sunken Ruins) are there to help make playing Deprive suck less. Sunken Ruins also helps with the mana consistency to generate BB for Tombstalker.
Draw Engine
The draw engine with Thirst for Knowledge and Dig Through Time is based off the idea of being able to dump off/filter through chaff to help power a bigger Goyf or a cheaper Delve spell. Topdecking a Thoughtseize late game is an awful feeling, but getting a Snapcaster Mage to run another Thirst back out to get some relevant cards seems good. Darkblast should be highlighted here as well - Dredge has good synergy with instant speed card draw and it also helps make our Delve spells cheaper.
To me, Dig is a better card to play (at least in this deck) for a few reasons:
Removal -
I like Abrupt Decay a lot as it can hit annoying artifacts and enchantments, too. It's very flexible but still inferior to Lightning Bolt, which can act as creature removal or go for the win; Decay can act as removal and prevent a loss.
Darkblast is great as a Delve enabler, helping your Goyf on Goyf action, removing mana dorks, and pretty darn solid vs. UR Delver decks.
The other two removal spots are there for chunky monkeys and manlands.
Flex Spot -
This will probably be one of the more contentious cards in the list. Sultai Charm is like a literal Swiss army knife - a more/less restrictive Doom Blade, more expensive Naturalize, and a looter effect all in one. I think what's important to remember is that it can still hit a fatty creature that neither Decay nor Dismember can handle, an Enchantment/Artifact over 3 cost, or if both modes are dead you can see some new cards and help cast another Delve spell/make Goyf bigger.
Counters -
Sometimes there's just stuff that we can't deal with and for that we have counters.
Deprive can be amazingly bad but it is great against Treasure Cruise and tons better than Mana Leak late game. I see it as a good middle ground that reconciles what Remand is good against and what Mana Leak is good against.
Discard -
Running B is a good reason to run targeted discard and we have quite a bit of it. I've settled on a 3/3 split until the meta settles down a bit as red-based burn decks are still pretty active.
Creatures -
Aside from not playing Delver, I feel these are the best creatures available in these colors for this deck.
I also tested the following:
A couple Matchup thoughts -
Pod - I tested against one of the GP Madrid decks without Path to Exile, no Qasali Pridemage and without the Melira combo. Ttough G1 if they get the pieces they need in play. Gavony Township and Persist creatures are a pain in the rear. Post-board, it gets much easier with Artifact hate. I tried Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver against them for a few games and she was nuts. I realized once I was able to deal with their Pod, they downgrade to a good creature deck; pacing them and then powering out a
Burn - rough G1 but bigger creatures prevailed. 1-for-1 their critters with removal and try to save counters for Bolts-and-Buddies. Post-boarded Feed The Clan always resolved for 10 life.
Affinity - close G1 but I wasn't working with an experienced pilot. All of this deck's removal is live against them and there's more pain to bring post-board.
Tron - awful matchup for this deck and post board doesn't make it any better. Update: I have recently tried Rain of Tears. The casting cost sucks, but flashing it back with a Snapcaster is strong.
That's all I got for now (11/24/14 11:30pm) - I'll add more later. Please feel free to contribute and maybe we can make this deck a "thing!"