I don't mind it, but in a multiplayer game I'd expect any triggers to occur. If player X swings in with a load of lifelink at player Y, and Y scoops in response, I will give X those lifelink triggers and would expect the same in return, same with any on attack triggers, when this deals damage etc. Scooping to deny someone those sort of triggers is to me childish and spiteful. To compare it to football/soccer, and I know this isn't the best comparison but to me it's similar, it would be like Team X being 2-0 up at Half time, and Team Y saying they don't want to play the rest and so it ends 2-0, when Team X were dominating and need the opportunity to up their Goal difference as they're fighting relegation/promotion.
Why would team Y want to give their direct competitor any more advantage?
they wouldn't of course, but it seems very unsporting to walk away from the game in that way rather than let the lethal combat step resolve against you, when it could be the difference between them going on to win or not. I guess if everyone is fine with that style of play and expects it in return that's just how it is.
I've never given much in the way of detailed feedback so by all means wait for a few opinions (hopefully others will post too), but looking at your list what stands out to me right away is how high your average cmc is. Including your commander you have 30 dragons which are 5cmc or greater, practically a third of the deck. This means you're very likely to have a starting hand with 3 of these dragons, maybe more, which is really going to hamper your ability to do anything for the first 5 turns, assuming you even get all your land drops as 35 isn't that many, I know you have some cost reduction/ramp cards, but I don't think you have enough.
I feel I'm a lot like you, I love tribal decks and sometimes when you decide to go all in on the tribe, you end up sticking cards in because they're relevant to the tribe, but objectively aren't really that good. You need to look at all your dragons, around 40 in total, and really try and cut that down to 20-25, then you go up to say 38 lands, and put in some more mana rocks and card draw, which will more reliably let you actually get to casting them. With your commander giving you another dragon for each one you get on the field, you really don't need so many.
So firstly, I'll tell you all the cards I'd personally remove and why, obviously at the end of the day it's your deck, but just an idea of where to start...
First getting the dragons to the 20-25 region..
Dragons to cut
Bogardan Hellkite- 8 mana is a lot and I'd be wanting something much more impactful, in commander the 5/5 body isn't remarkable and the 5 damage although decent to remove a problem creature, doesn't justify the cost, especially when your curve is already so high.
Scourge of kher ridges- Again at 8 mana its expensive, it does nothing coming down bar act as a body, requiring you to pump quite a bit of mana into it for any high amount of damage, you'd be better served leaving that sort of effect to designated board wipes.
Skyline Despot- My issue with this card is that at 7 its still quite high, its only a 5/5, and you have to remain the monarch until your next turn to benefit, your commander instantly gives you a 5/5 if its out anyway, and so I don't feel the payoff is enough personally.
Spawn of Thraxas- 7 mana 5/5 syndrome, again the damage to me isn't enough for the cost here.
Siege Dragon- The damaging ability is more relevant here, but I'd still cut it, though this is a bit meta dependent, if you often deal with low p/t go wide strategies, it might be a keeper.
Tyrant of Valakut- It wasn't good in standard, it isn't any better idea, much of the time you will be paying the full cmc not the surge cost, and either way it's just not that great.
Kilnmouth dragon- I'm trying to make more cuts at the top end, between this and Furyborn Hellkite I've kept the latter, I think it's more reliably going to get the bloodthirst trigger than you having 2-3 other dragons in hand to boost this with.
Imperial Hellkite- you're probably not going to want to morph it just to tutor a dragon in most cases I feel.
Ancient hellkite- I'd rather be putting the mana into something else than a quite restrictive ability like this one.
Stormwing Dragon- very expensive megamorph with quite little pay off, overcosted either way
Demanding dragon- I like this in standard but for EDH 5 damage isn't as significant, and they may well have fodder to sacrifice,I feel a few more need to be cut its on the block.
Dragon whelp- just not enough for me, if your commander isn't in play to see this come out it's really poor value
Sarkhan's whelp- just a 2/2 flier for 3, absolutely reliant on your commander being out.
Dragon hatchling- Way too mana intensive to make it worth it and so vulnerable at 1 toughness.
Other cuts
Dragonlord's servant- Flavor is good but its very vulnerable to removal and only helps with dragons, you'd be better off simply running the likes of Mind stone
Dragonspeaker Shaman- This isn't as bad and you may well choose to keep it, I'd probably still prefer something like Worn powerstone though myself
coat of arms- This is more for very large swarms of tokens for me, as you say I think you risk buffing any other tribal decks more than you end up doing so yourself.
Brass Herald- the buff is negligible for your dragons and his ability isn't worth 6 mana otherwise.
Dragonstorm- I don't think you're very likely to cast this for any real storm effect, in which case it's an expensive dragon, card draw/ramp or just one of the cut but decent dragons is probably a better option.
Indomitable creativity- bit weary of this card, albeit you will generally remove something more dangerous than they get, it cannot be guaranteed, I'd prefer other artifact or creature removal in its place
possibility storm- not sure that's benefiting you that much, just means you cast a different dragon to the one you tried to much of the time, or better or possibly worse, it does interfere with opponents plans, but for me not the right card for this deck.
Temple of the false gods feels bad when its an early land, honestly think a regular mountain or something else will do.
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon being mono colour the whole gathering storage counters has less benefit here, I think I'd rather just have a red source really.
In place of these I'd up the lands to at least 37 and be looking at a few more pieces of artifact ramp to help guarantee your commander and dragons are castable ASAP, say stuff like..
I don't mind it, but in a multiplayer game I'd expect any triggers to occur. If player X swings in with a load of lifelink at player Y, and Y scoops in response, I will give X those lifelink triggers and would expect the same in return, same with any on attack triggers, when this deals damage etc. Scooping to deny someone those sort of triggers is to me childish and spiteful. To compare it to football/soccer, and I know this isn't the best comparison but to me it's similar, it would be like Team X being 2-0 up at Half time, and Team Y saying they don't want to play the rest and so it ends 2-0, when Team X were dominating and need the opportunity to up their Goal difference as they're fighting relegation/promotion.
As of now Amass doesn't seem great, albeit some Amass cards have other aspects to them which makes them a consideration, also as said any token doubler does make a token which dies, which is nice for on-death triggers.
I think I'd consider Commence the Endgame for a potential semi-budget tribal Gisa and Geralf EDH I'm considering brewing. It's high mana yeah, but you have a lot of zombie tribal support, and I mean even if it only makes say a 5/5 or 6/6, that at instant speed along with the draw isn't an awful deal (I also like the art), especially when you know it's not getting countered.
Not a big fan of this type of anime style personally but I have to say some are very well done for who those who do.
My main query is though, anime is popular worldwide, and we've now had quite a break since Amonkhets invocations, I'm surprised these weren't just put in all product tbh. They said expeditions/inventions etc would be done again right? We have no set in standard offering them, I'd have thought maybe they'd have done it so one set at any one time has them, when that rotates the next set will contain some, leaves you a reasonable time period between "special" sets.
I've always loved the art and flavor but I've never been able to run it, one guy all too often plays Vamps, and even outside of some sort of zombie tribal, zombies turn up in some form every now and then.
Hey guys so building a budget Zombie Horde deck to try something new with my EDH group, and obviously it must include Summon the Pack (StP), might errata it so the Horde can make use of helpful noncreature spells too.
It has the added bonus of fulfilling my love for cardboard crack and so basically I'm wondering what the best packs to use are?
Firstly I'm thinking Battle for Zendikar & Kaladesh for the added lottery of an expedition/invention.
It seems to be BFZ is probably better than Oath for the average value of the very unlikely Expedition, for general value and better big StP targets, I'm not sure?
Same with Kaladesh, I know that has the much coveted Sol ring, but I think Revolt probably has better average value overall..unsure on each's better StP contenders
Then I was thinking of some other sets which cost a bit more, I appreciate there is a high likelihood that single packs from older sets can be mapped, but I'll just be a few for some added variety/amusement. Max price of a tenner, and ignoring older sets which cost the same as standard ones due to low power level/value, I'm seeing...
Betrayers/Saviours of Kamigawa
Coldsnap
Conspiracy/Take the Crown
Dark Ascension
Eternal Masters
Fifth Dawn
Iconic Masters
Judgement
M10-15
Mirrodin Besieged (also Mirran & Phyrexian variants)
Scars of Mirrodin
9th Edition
Odyssey
Scourge
I'll only get a few of these ones, so wondering what the best middleground between a chance at some value pulls and a set which has quite a few nasty fatties to make good zombies?
I should probably stick this is a few of my creature heavy decks as I hate pouring my mana into a nice fatty or massive X value hydra when there's untapped blue mana available..
Shelved him to bring him back at a later date, not surprised at all, but it gets rather repetitive.
Let me guess...
A) Emrakul senses him in there and gets him out for some purpose, or possesses him, mutates his form etc.
B) We have another Phyrexian set regarding planar portals and at their moment of defeat they somehow let him out and it turns out they've had dealings with him as it's all part of the plan.
So basically you counter your own Nexus of fate, it goes back to your hand..and you get another turn anyway. Fun stuff.
Not too knowledgable of standard... but with 9 mana couldn't you be winning anyway? And in nexus decks, don't you just start winning when you cast it anyways?
yeah should have clarified, just meant its a fun interaction, the deck doesn't need it for that purpose, tho it's a decent card in of itself.
People have to remember that when a PW ETBs for you, you get the PW's starting loyalty in +1/+1 counters for the Hydra. That's kinda stupid with some of the high loyalty uncommon PWs.
Is that defo correct? I know the rules say the walker enters with it's X loyalty counters (x being its starting loyalty), does that mean the hydra sees the counters get put on, or are they..already on and so no trigger when it ETB's, if that makes sense?
they wouldn't of course, but it seems very unsporting to walk away from the game in that way rather than let the lethal combat step resolve against you, when it could be the difference between them going on to win or not. I guess if everyone is fine with that style of play and expects it in return that's just how it is.
I feel I'm a lot like you, I love tribal decks and sometimes when you decide to go all in on the tribe, you end up sticking cards in because they're relevant to the tribe, but objectively aren't really that good. You need to look at all your dragons, around 40 in total, and really try and cut that down to 20-25, then you go up to say 38 lands, and put in some more mana rocks and card draw, which will more reliably let you actually get to casting them. With your commander giving you another dragon for each one you get on the field, you really don't need so many.
So firstly, I'll tell you all the cards I'd personally remove and why, obviously at the end of the day it's your deck, but just an idea of where to start...
First getting the dragons to the 20-25 region..
Dragons to cut
Bogardan Hellkite- 8 mana is a lot and I'd be wanting something much more impactful, in commander the 5/5 body isn't remarkable and the 5 damage although decent to remove a problem creature, doesn't justify the cost, especially when your curve is already so high.
Scourge of kher ridges- Again at 8 mana its expensive, it does nothing coming down bar act as a body, requiring you to pump quite a bit of mana into it for any high amount of damage, you'd be better served leaving that sort of effect to designated board wipes.
Skyline Despot- My issue with this card is that at 7 its still quite high, its only a 5/5, and you have to remain the monarch until your next turn to benefit, your commander instantly gives you a 5/5 if its out anyway, and so I don't feel the payoff is enough personally.
Spawn of Thraxas- 7 mana 5/5 syndrome, again the damage to me isn't enough for the cost here.
Siege Dragon- The damaging ability is more relevant here, but I'd still cut it, though this is a bit meta dependent, if you often deal with low p/t go wide strategies, it might be a keeper.
Tyrant of Valakut- It wasn't good in standard, it isn't any better idea, much of the time you will be paying the full cmc not the surge cost, and either way it's just not that great.
Kilnmouth dragon- I'm trying to make more cuts at the top end, between this and Furyborn Hellkite I've kept the latter, I think it's more reliably going to get the bloodthirst trigger than you having 2-3 other dragons in hand to boost this with.
Imperial Hellkite- you're probably not going to want to morph it just to tutor a dragon in most cases I feel.
Ancient hellkite- I'd rather be putting the mana into something else than a quite restrictive ability like this one.
Akoum hellkite- Not doing enough for me ability wise.
Stormwing Dragon- very expensive megamorph with quite little pay off, overcosted either way
Demanding dragon- I like this in standard but for EDH 5 damage isn't as significant, and they may well have fodder to sacrifice,I feel a few more need to be cut its on the block.
Dragon whelp- just not enough for me, if your commander isn't in play to see this come out it's really poor value
Sarkhan's whelp- just a 2/2 flier for 3, absolutely reliant on your commander being out.
Dragon hatchling- Way too mana intensive to make it worth it and so vulnerable at 1 toughness.
Other cuts
Dragonlord's servant- Flavor is good but its very vulnerable to removal and only helps with dragons, you'd be better off simply running the likes of Mind stone
Dragonspeaker Shaman- This isn't as bad and you may well choose to keep it, I'd probably still prefer something like Worn powerstone though myself
Sarkhan Dragonsoul- Too expensive and the plus isn't enough, no one is letting you ult that thing. If you want a different Sarkhan I'd prefer Sarkhan, the Dragonspeaker or Sarkhan the Masterless
coat of arms- This is more for very large swarms of tokens for me, as you say I think you risk buffing any other tribal decks more than you end up doing so yourself.
Brass Herald- the buff is negligible for your dragons and his ability isn't worth 6 mana otherwise.
Dragonstorm- I don't think you're very likely to cast this for any real storm effect, in which case it's an expensive dragon, card draw/ramp or just one of the cut but decent dragons is probably a better option.
Fireball- Too mana intensive for any great effect
Indomitable creativity- bit weary of this card, albeit you will generally remove something more dangerous than they get, it cannot be guaranteed, I'd prefer other artifact or creature removal in its place
possibility storm- not sure that's benefiting you that much, just means you cast a different dragon to the one you tried to much of the time, or better or possibly worse, it does interfere with opponents plans, but for me not the right card for this deck.
Temple of the false gods feels bad when its an early land, honestly think a regular mountain or something else will do.
Crucible of the Spirit Dragon being mono colour the whole gathering storage counters has less benefit here, I think I'd rather just have a red source really.
In place of these I'd up the lands to at least 37 and be looking at a few more pieces of artifact ramp to help guarantee your commander and dragons are castable ASAP, say stuff like..
Mind stone
worn powerstone
Hedron archive
Solemn Simulacrum
Burnished Hart
Coldsteel heart
Commander's sphere
Darksteel Ignot
Then some more card draw options to consider..
mind's eye
Mask of memory (with everything flying you should be able to connect easily enough)
Outpost siege (not technically draw but relevant)
The immortal sun
Endless Atlas
Dragon Mage
other wheel effects like Dragon Mage might be an idea....
then I'd also consider more removal, particularly some non-creature options, and many a couple more ways to grant haste to these dragons if possible.
That's a start at least!
I think I'd consider Commence the Endgame for a potential semi-budget tribal Gisa and Geralf EDH I'm considering brewing. It's high mana yeah, but you have a lot of zombie tribal support, and I mean even if it only makes say a 5/5 or 6/6, that at instant speed along with the draw isn't an awful deal (I also like the art), especially when you know it's not getting countered.
My main query is though, anime is popular worldwide, and we've now had quite a break since Amonkhets invocations, I'm surprised these weren't just put in all product tbh. They said expeditions/inventions etc would be done again right? We have no set in standard offering them, I'd have thought maybe they'd have done it so one set at any one time has them, when that rotates the next set will contain some, leaves you a reasonable time period between "special" sets.
It has the added bonus of fulfilling my love for cardboard crack and so basically I'm wondering what the best packs to use are?
Firstly I'm thinking Battle for Zendikar & Kaladesh for the added lottery of an expedition/invention.
It seems to be BFZ is probably better than Oath for the average value of the very unlikely Expedition, for general value and better big StP targets, I'm not sure?
Same with Kaladesh, I know that has the much coveted Sol ring, but I think Revolt probably has better average value overall..unsure on each's better StP contenders
Then I was thinking of some other sets which cost a bit more, I appreciate there is a high likelihood that single packs from older sets can be mapped, but I'll just be a few for some added variety/amusement. Max price of a tenner, and ignoring older sets which cost the same as standard ones due to low power level/value, I'm seeing...
Betrayers/Saviours of Kamigawa
Coldsnap
Conspiracy/Take the Crown
Dark Ascension
Eternal Masters
Fifth Dawn
Iconic Masters
Judgement
M10-15
Mirrodin Besieged (also Mirran & Phyrexian variants)
Scars of Mirrodin
9th Edition
Odyssey
Scourge
I'll only get a few of these ones, so wondering what the best middleground between a chance at some value pulls and a set which has quite a few nasty fatties to make good zombies?
ah I misread it in my mind thought it countered it, sent it back to your hand, and made a copy. Same overall idea though haha.
You're sick...
Let me guess...
A) Emrakul senses him in there and gets him out for some purpose, or possesses him, mutates his form etc.
B) We have another Phyrexian set regarding planar portals and at their moment of defeat they somehow let him out and it turns out they've had dealings with him as it's all part of the plan.
yeah should have clarified, just meant its a fun interaction, the deck doesn't need it for that purpose, tho it's a decent card in of itself.
Is that defo correct? I know the rules say the walker enters with it's X loyalty counters (x being its starting loyalty), does that mean the hydra sees the counters get put on, or are they..already on and so no trigger when it ETB's, if that makes sense?