Rite of Harmony enough to put the deck back on the map ya'll think? it's one more than glimpse, but it does have flash back for late game.
The card would require us to go back towards nettle sentinel for more explosive starts I think, which is weak by itself.
Mana base can be stretched to include W pretty easily imo, it'll be painful but we could potentially race burn if they don't bolt the dorks or engine pieces. 1 temple garden, 1 overgrown tomb, 1 yavimaya, 1 pendlehaven, 4 basic forests, 4 fast lands (probably a 2/2 split with GW and GB?), 1 westvale abbey (not sure), 5 fetches is probably fine. I think an argument could be made for 6 fetches against most decks. I don't think dryad arbor is feasible with such a low land count in modern.
Aside from natural order and once upon a time, we're starting to converge with the legacy list in options. We don't have some of the crazy G haymakers that legacy has access to through the commander format, but I think we still have some solid plays.
Who's ready for dork > 3-feri to ruin this out of the gate...
I think while everyone is trying to be cute there are going to be a non-zero amount of people getting curbed by elves players curving dork, into steel leaf champion into Coco all over people. I'm not even sure if shaman of the pack is worth the effort?
Black has some very powerful one drops at it's disposal in a format that is pretty slow. thoughtseize, push, deathrite... I expect black to be a major cornerstone of the format. Also, leyline of the void is probably going to be the best GY removal tool, which means Gary could be showing up to too.
Okay first off thanks for giving me an actual answer as opposed to answering my question with a "that's just how things are"
The game has historically been balanced around the color pie. When cards like beast within are printed, they tend to break the game more often then not because you have one color that just runs away from the pack. This card was just recently recast as a white card in generous gift in MH1 for example. The green version isn't going anywhere, but destroying anything is something white does.
Okay that's a fair point I just think beast has lead to more interesting game states the few times I've had someone play it against me and causing a creature to go savage is kinda a neat thing I wish green did more but I can see why green doesn't do it as often.
A) the format breaks down to that deck, or decks that beat that deck. When the removal or payoffs are even too strong after that the format becomes that deck and versions of itself to beat itself. We started seeing this with the Hogaak bridgevine decks maiming 4 copies of leyline of the void.
But would expanding the pie for a few more colors cause that type of problem? From what I can tell hogaak is only doing what you would expect green/black decks to do.
B) distribution becomes an absolute nightmare. When a card is out of line like jace, the mind sculptor in standard it becomes increasingly harder to find product that is priced as it should be. There was a point before his standard ban that buying a box and pulling a Jace netted a gamestore money...excluding the rest of the contents. The product was drying up and it wasn't making it to the players. They also cut the print run eventually which causes more headaches. We are seeing this again with MH1 staples just absolutely skyrocketing to try and justify the cost of a box to the end consumer.
Again I don't see how this pertains to changing the color pie especially because Jace is a textbook blue card, just a ridiculously broken one at that.
C) every color can have each macro effect, but it has to have it in a way that is resonant in that color. The game leans hard on resonant themes that expect the player to have some knowledge of a thing or setting prior to sitting down. I don't have to teach you what a zombie is, and zombies that mechanical do something in the graveyard like gravedigger are easy to understand. The game builds on this further by its age, colors tend to dip into the same thematic waters over time. For example green does get creature removal, but it's the fight mechanic.
So moving this to my example: red shutting off enchantments for a turn would be resonant to reds them of impulsively ignoring rules out of anger since enchantments are often used to represent rules or a status quo right? the big examples I can think of are Blind obedience and Martial Law.
D) it actually entices players to go more than one color, which introduces more variance, and makes for better games. If you the have resources to answer all the threats or present the most potent threats then you're firmly the favorite to win before you even sit down. I'll point you to the khans of tarkir block as an example, the mana was so good that running 4-5 colors was actually the norm. It allowed players to play whatever the best suite of cards were and completely circumvent the weaknesses of each color. The result was the silly 4c collected company / rally the ancestors deck that could instant speed you out of nowhere the second you tapped out. The deck has mainboard answers to any relevant permanent type. The saheeli rai 4 color combo deck in kld/aer standard is another offender that had great mana and a very good threat suite. The deck ran almost no artifact gate because it didn't need to, there were no artifacts that really threatened it. It could have though, with little impact to its game plan.
Didn't this deck only work because Collected company was such a good card in the first place though. Again I'm not saying wizards should remove the color pie just that they should make it less rigid. Like could you say if red had temporary answers to enchantments people wouldn't run a boros deck? People still run azorous decks even though blue has an answer for basically everthing just because blue can't deal with things permanently if it misses it's window of opportunity and the white tends to burn it's hand out too quickly.
E) the cards you're looking for are printed, but they're sly about it. Generic hate for specific mechanical decks does show up in artifacts. pithing needle for activated abilities. dampening sphere for storm or xerox decks. relic of progenitus for graveyards. There are a bunch.
Only thing I can think of for red and blacks weakness to non-creatures is ratchet bomb unless I'm mistaken and often times it just takes long enough for the player who played the card ratchet bomb is being used as an out for to win (ignoring the fact that most of the time ratchet bomb gets blown to hell). So all this system does is give you a free win against certain colors. Source: I play pox and use leyline of sanctity to stop red decks completely.
F) card draw isn't something that should be stapled to every card. treasure cruise started warping legacy/modern in short order as everyone just started forcing a manabase that supported blue simple for the draw effect. dig through time wasn't far behind. Drawing extra cards is really a huge deal in the game and it's one of the effects new players tend to grossly undervalue.
I know I have a blue/green deck that's built around cards that give you free draws when played. I'm not saying white should get that, I'm talking about more explore or investigate style of effects when I say conditional card draw. Also I've been playing since Time spiral granted that was with my dad and I only started playing semi competitively since return to ravnica before taking a break for a bit.
G) you mentioned some specific card types/colors like black and artifacts. It's so some decks can present a threat that is harder to answer. If black just 1-1 or 2-1 you all day with removal, you probably aren't going to be able to stick anything meaningful. Having an artifact that can cause a speedbump for then helps because then it's an actual game. That artifact shouldn't win the game on the spot, but it needs to help. Same with red and enchantments. Note that GB can deal with anything in a number of cards.
Like I said earlier more often than not artifacts tend to be more of a brick wall rather than a speed bump the same thing goes for red.
To be fair I was just trying to quote an example for each point off the top of my head, I wouldn't even say these are the best examples to prove the point. I just think that when the restrictions are compromised the game becomes very homogenous.
Coco and baby Jace are great magic cards, but rally is what set the deck over in my eyes. The deck could have just run flash creatures if it needed bodies for the same effect. If the deck couldn't go green creature, black creature, coco, rally with no mana issues then it wouldn't have been as oppressive. Fetching in that deck was actually kinda hard.
The JTMS comment was more centered around breaking the pie has historically led to tournament staple if it's priced to move. It creates a burden on the supply of demand spikes. Jace let blue handle a TON of situations all in one card. It screwed with the board, it screwed with their draws, it dig you 3 deep to find an answer to a question, it was a win condition. It checked too many boxes in one card (advantage, control, win condition).
Black is getting artifact removal added to its toolbox. Mark rosewater (Maro) posts a ton of great articles describing why the color pie is so important, and the ramifications of a bending a break. Colors do get to play around in each other's space, but it has to be done in a way that color cares about.
A bonus for a color doing something in a way it cares about is that the gameplans start synergizing well. I used the example of fight being greens removal mechanic. Well yeah it sucks having to have a creature out, but green wants creatures out anyway. When you start stapling the fight mechanic to creatures you can get some very interesting board states and the creatures become more impactful. You start actively looking for keywords like deathtouch or lifelink to bring up the value of the fight spell. For example sedge scorpion is great in core 2020 limited, but it makes fight cards phenomenal veause now you can snipe your opponents bomb if it has flying. If this were a kill spell like murder you just bank it until the flyer comes down and continue to turn dudes sideways. Not as interactive.
I also think it's important to note that a lot of your concerns are being addressed or are on the radar. Maro's articles and blogatog are great resources for reading about them. White has never historically needed much card advantage until formats like edh were introduced. Same with red and dealing with enchantments. This refocus gave us stuff like choas warp or modal spells like abrade. (Which btw I have a saheeli deck with liqumetal coating and altar of the brood!that uses abrade as small-medium creature removal or permanent removal if I use coating. The card is just great in that deck and it's removal of all types after t3 most games.)
Generally though rule of thumb seems to be:
White can deal with any permanent type. Usually destroy or exile. Whites versatility can requires addiotnal conditions (like destroy a tapped creature). Tons of grave hate, usually as a bonus.
Blue can counter, bounce, or steal any permanent type. Blue has issues dealing with the board. The best blue board wipe is engulf the shore lol. Next to no grave hate.
Black can discard any permanent type and destroy most. Not really lands and artifacts have just recently been added to the mix. Blacks versatility comes at a cost.l very often. Tons of grave hate.
Red can destroy artifacts and lands directly. Red can deal damage to any permanent type. Red cannot easily deal with enchantments by itself. Red has zero grave hate pretty much.
Green can deal with artifacts, enchantments, lands, and creatures with flying. It can deal with creatures by fighting. Green does have some grave hate sometimes.
There are exceptions to all these. Cards like fulminator mage can do a lot of work in a mono black shell who is threatening something black can't normally do. Add blacks recursion and it becomes pretty aggravating to play against.
I personally like the color pie because it frames and shepherds in my expectations when I sit accross from someone so I can make partially informed decisions. I don't like getting blindsided by weird one ofs like psionic blast. There are enough variables in the game Imho. I have been a huge proponent of modal cards in general. I will also say that I'm not a fan of the volume of card draw/advantage green has received in the last few years. courser of kruphix and tireless tracker provide too much velocity if you stumble against them and can't get them off the field. Courser can represent 2-3 draws and 3-4 life before I can remove it sometimes and that's insane for 3 mana and a decent toughness.
The community has been clamoring for red to get more steal efffects where possible.
The game has historically been balanced around the color pie. When cards like beast within are printed, they tend to break the game more often then not because you have one color that just runs away from the pack. This card was just recently recast as a white card in generous gift in MH1 for example. The green version isn't going anywhere, but destroying anything is something white does.
When you have a clear forerunner there are a few things that tend to happen:
A) the format breaks down to that deck, or decks that beat that deck. When the removal or payoffs are even too strong after that the format becomes that deck and versions of itself to beat itself. We started seeing this with the Hogaak bridgevine decks maiming 4 copies of leyline of the void.
B) distribution becomes an absolute nightmare. When a card is out of line like jace, the mind sculptor in standard it becomes increasingly harder to find product that is priced as it should be. There was a point before his standard ban that buying a box and pulling a Jace netted a gamestore money...excluding the rest of the contents. The product was drying up and it wasn't making it to the players. They also cut the print run eventually which causes more headaches. We are seeing this again with MH1 staples just absolutely skyrocketing to try and justify the cost of a box to the end consumer.
C) every color can have each macro effect, but it has to have it in a way that is resonant in that color. The game leans hard on resonant themes that expect the player to have some knowledge of a thing or setting prior to sitting down. I don't have to teach you what a zombie is, and zombies that mechanical do something in the graveyard like gravedigger are easy to understand. The game builds on this further by its age, colors tend to dip into the same thematic waters over time. For example green does get creature removal, but it's the fight mechanic.
D) it actually entices players to go more than one color, which introduces more variance, and makes for better games. If you the have resources to answer all the threats or present the most potent threats then you're firmly the favorite to win before you even sit down. I'll point you to the khans of tarkir block as an example, the mana was so good that running 4-5 colors was actually the norm. It allowed players to play whatever the best suite of cards were and completely circumvent the weaknesses of each color. The result was the silly 4c collected company / rally the ancestors deck that could instant speed you out of nowhere the second you tapped out. The deck has mainboard answers to any relevant permanent type. The saheeli rai 4 color combo deck in kld/aer standard is another offender that had great mana and a very good threat suite. The deck ran almost no artifact gate because it didn't need to, there were no artifacts that really threatened it. It could have though, with little impact to its game plan.
E) the cards you're looking for are printed, but they're sly about it. Generic hate for specific mechanical decks does show up in artifacts. pithing needle for activated abilities. dampening sphere for storm or xerox decks. relic of progenitus for graveyards. There are a bunch.
F) card draw isn't something that should be stapled to every card. treasure cruise started warping legacy/modern in short order as everyone just started forcing a manabase that supported blue simple for the draw effect. dig through time wasn't far behind. Drawing extra cards is really a huge deal in the game and it's one of the effects new players tend to grossly undervalue.
G) you mentioned some specific card types/colors like black and artifacts. It's so some decks can present a threat that is harder to answer. If black just 1-1 or 2-1 you all day with removal, you probably aren't going to be able to stick anything meaningful. Having an artifact that can cause a speedbump for then helps because then it's an actual game. That artifact shouldn't win the game on the spot, but it needs to help. Same with red and enchantments. Note that GB can deal with anything in a number of cards.
Bye Felicia. Bridge was a silly magic card, I couldn't agree with this more.
I think the criteria they used was fair and well supported. Those win rates are scary and not really something I want floating around the meta. I imagine that we'll be seeing more and more of this as we get stronger payoff cards with every set.
I'm glad they didn't wait, because sometimes I feel like waiting can send a signal that something like this is okay. I'm not in support of knee jerk reactions, but I think that they were a little too complacent with eldrazi. I remember being at a regionals event (200-300 players) and a large group of us lamenting not being able to break into the top tables that were 60-70% eldrazi players who were able to pick up pieces early. I played some great magic that weekend and even played a deck with a decent match up against it (elves); that deck just played a different game altogether.
I know there will be users who lament a ban that isn't backed by GP/Open/pro tour (or whatever they call the high end tournaments now) track record, but I think this is exactly the benefit of MTGO. They cited some strong numbers and this deck was still in its infancy for some of the 3 week period they referenced - which means slightly less refined lists and pilots moving into the deck for first reps.
Do I think the format slows down? Mmm not really. I still think neobrand is silly magic, and I still think there are decks that can deploy virtual t2-3 kills too often even if they don't end the games on those turns. I wouldn't be surprised if they start trimming more of these offenders out over time.
nice, the deck even has infinite combo. Should be a deck to watch out for, espescially when Hogaak finally eats a ban.
and glad to see that the iconic character Urza has found a home for his card in Modern,
When I first saw Urza, I was sure it was just a Commander card. A local player who was on KCI, Lantern, and pretty much whatever current artifact iteration is best, has picked it up. Wow how wrong I was. In addition to just being good, it looks like another badge to sew onto the sash of horrid decks I hate playing against.
It's cool for an iconic character to have a played card for sure. The problem is kitchen sink design (zatalpa, emrakul, etc.) just leads to poor gameplay I think. Urza just has a ton of very relevant text. Does he really need to survive bolt too? He never struck me as a particularly sturdy character prespark.
I mean the forums were all talking about potentially busted sai was going to be in similar lists and he would show up here or there as a two of maybe. For 1 mana more I get to turn my slow 2 card combo i already wanted to run into infinite mana/life/draw my deck. Not to mention how well it plays with the rest of the pieces you're already running.
I think the deck is okay to have around for now, but I'm not a fan of how quickly some of the new decks to beat can shift between game plans.
Decks like Phoenix/Urza/hoggak can progress multiple game plans at once while seeing a high volume of cards. Even if you path 1-2 Phoenix you're still fighting the yard/thing/and aria of flame. Even if you hit hoggak with yard hate you're still slogging trough 8-20 power on board accross multiple bodies by t2 sometimes. Even if you have spot removal for Urza you still need to have artifact removal for the sword combo/prison elements of the deck.
This is what has been bogging me down in the format the most. Decks can shift gears seamlessly and really turn the corner in two turns in most cases to execute a win. I ran westvale abbey in elves but the cost of not tapping for G on T1 AND having to sac 5 guys was very real. Where is the cost to these payoff cards they keep printing? Where is the sacrifice if my opponent can respond?
I feel kinda silly that I was so hyped for Serra when she reads like serras angel in most cases and there were cards like this in the set.
Considering moving a large chunk of modern staples (lotv, snaps, fetches, shocks etc.) what do you think would be the best way to offload?
I'm looking for cash, no store credit or trades. I'm just at a point with my collection that stuff like MH1 is making it too expensive to keep up. I also can't really justify having this much money in cardboard I don't even play at my LGS because I always default to the same few decks.
Most everything is playsets. I also have quite a few older things hat have spiked in the last couple years (not reserved list) that I want to move.
I was planning on talking to LGS and players I know first, but I'm at a loss after that. I think the volume of cards is going to cause a big retailer like star city games to fight me in a lot of the grading.
trinket mage as an additional tutor and target you can equip to if the crap hits the fan?
If you T1 do a thing, t2 puresteel paladin pass, they either bolt your pld or deploy a threat, at that point if they don't have an answer (which can and does happen) you have plenty of tutor options to just go ham. T3 trinket mage, pitch ssg play the hammer you tutored and equip for free on trinket mage makes that search for azcanta your opp played look silly. Then removal HAS to be pointed at the mage while puresteel gets to keep handing out hammers fo free until they kill him too.
T1 vial, t2 2nd land play condemned eot vial in gorger, t3 swing discard stormkirk captain and play it for madness and bash in for 8, vial is still up for 2 if I wanna flash anything else in.
Im going to brew with sorin and the vamps for sure. I'll start by figuring out a) what is my shortest clock to 20 damage going to look like, b) what is the most recursion I can get, and c) what is the most disruptive deck I can make. Then I'll go from there and figure out a good build.
Zombies, humans, and eldrazi can all attack the hand while deploying threats which is critical to the success of those tribes I think. Vamps can't. :/
So yeah I spent the greater part of the workday trying to get myself excited to play modern and I ended up not going. The thought of playing against decks like phoenix and hogaak is just not appealing anymore. This is exactly what I didn't like about the format when I first got into it competitively, was that there were decks like bloom that demanded answers on turns 1-2 or they executed a win and sometimes they needed multiple answers and won anyway (I started playing competitively just before bloom really blew up and shortly thereafter ate a ban). I dunno if one card is going to be enough to entice me to hang around if they ban something during the announcement...at this point there are multiple things I want to see gone.
It's pretty telling how I get excited for a card like goblin engineer and then realize my opponent will have milled me out or presented a lethal amount of zombies and hogaaks on the board before I can even cast him in most games.
Horizon lands keep dropping. What do people think is the bottom there?
Color dependent but I think they're more useful than the fast lands (blooming marsh etc) for any deck than wants to have a game plan post t4
so, useless in modern
horizon lands are overrated.
they are pretty good. but you on average you need 1-2 while needing 6-8 fetch.
i think the bottom is around 10 (+-5)
Lol true but doesn't mean you don't want to be prepared for mana flood. I do agree a fetch/shock/basics will eat up your first 12-16 slots in almost all decks. That doesn't leave much room for utility lands.
Isn't changing oracle text similar to a patch? I know they can't do everything with an oracle text change, like changing mana costs or something, but they do change things like adding a creature type or adding x can't equal zero and such. There was even a card recently that only said swap 2 creature p/t, but it was only supposed to last until end of turn so they just updated the Oracle text.
They do it, but often these are so that the card plays similar to how most players are already playing the card (like teferi, hero of dominaria untapping two lands).
You're right though, this is a form of patching. I think the thought is something that changes the card numerically (power, toughness, cmc, etc.) is harder to track and remember than a rules clarification that doesn't always matter.
Like with pridemate, the cases where a player wouldn't elect to put counters on it are so far and few between, the change didn't impact the majority of gameplay. This kind of stuff you can change and let it coast under the radar.
My concern is they take it too liberally in conjunction with arena.
Maybe we give digital a longer lead time than paper so they can preemptively move in correcting paper. For example send each LGS say 150 copies of corrected versions of a card that players can freely trade in up to four copies of a card that was "patched." LGS gets incentivized to return outdated copies to wizards (future discounts, store perks, etc.). That way there aren't feel bads when you open one AND LGS is compensated for the hassle. You can play with a patched original, but you go by the oracle text, players are incentivized to trade them in though.
Pack of replacements may cost them a $1-2 in material and shipping per LGS? Just make sure all GPS are stocked and you're gtg.
trade in programs can be very good solutions for these types of things.
Horizon lands keep dropping. What do people think is the bottom there?
Color dependent but I think they're more useful than the fast lands (blooming marsh etc) for any deck than wants to have a game plan post t4 and has an average cmc of 2-3. That's a pretty wide array of decks and I'd be surprised if they don't eventually sit higher than that cycle in time (personal opinion).
Bottom price is very dependent on if any more cards from MH1 end up like the new bridgevine cards where significant chunks of EV start to shift around the box. I can't really say but I'll be picking up two of each for $10-15, sub 10 and I'm biting on a playset.
Even after an expodition and a reprint horizon canopy still had a pretty high price tag. Granted it was the only one but some of these color combos have notoriously run low cmc curves (UR for example) where you would even fit from the drawing.
I think GB is weird to try and gauge because the color combo has gotten a significant shot in the arm recently with CA (tireless tracker, courser of kruphix, arguel's blood fast, glint-sleeve siphoner). Wotc seems to be throwing a solid piece of CA at these colors for the past few years and I'm not sure it's going to slow down (explore mechanic and the current green walkers in standard).
I would hope it never goes beyond things like Pridemate then. I doubt, deeply, that if Wizards has even thought about this, that they would consider the ramifications to Legacy and Modern.
It would (will?) be beyond obnoxious.
If people find this thread unbearable now, let's start thinking about us fighting over 1 mana difference, or 1 toughness.
No thanks.
I understand Ajani's Pridemate was errata'd to be a "MUST" ability - but what was the cause of this? Did it screw with the program's system, or the game play?
I thought they said it was click intensive as a may ability, and it's not an earth shattering card to test the waters with imo.
I'm highly highly skeptical we'll ever see paper "patches" as banning and printing a fixed version has been the go to strat for years. They generate sales, we don't have to deal with a format being broken until a safety valve can be released, and it's just all around cleaner. Especially since magic is multilingual and artwork is key in identifying a card (yes we go by the oracle text in tournaments, but we identify and process board state data largely by card position and artwork).
We've even seen it with stuff that's in the reserved list and getting cards like deep forest hermit. Its too strong for standard (9 p/t accross 5 bodies for 5 mana is kinda powerful). They can't print the old card, so you riff of it and make something new. Often times it's more fun anyway (better creature types, better stats/mana, or an effect that doesn't break the game wide open like time walk).
My gut feeling to pridemate was that they were very leery about introducing another functional reprint at 2 cmc as it could seriously throw standard out of whack or have eternal format effects (soul sisters wouldn't mind 8 goyfs, fwiw). I would have rather seen an edit on the design (make it legendary and give it trample) instead of the errata though.
They can always revert the change as well once the card rotates from standard. I doubt they will, but it's an option.
The card would require us to go back towards nettle sentinel for more explosive starts I think, which is weak by itself.
Mana base can be stretched to include W pretty easily imo, it'll be painful but we could potentially race burn if they don't bolt the dorks or engine pieces. 1 temple garden, 1 overgrown tomb, 1 yavimaya, 1 pendlehaven, 4 basic forests, 4 fast lands (probably a 2/2 split with GW and GB?), 1 westvale abbey (not sure), 5 fetches is probably fine. I think an argument could be made for 6 fetches against most decks. I don't think dryad arbor is feasible with such a low land count in modern.
Aside from natural order and once upon a time, we're starting to converge with the legacy list in options. We don't have some of the crazy G haymakers that legacy has access to through the commander format, but I think we still have some solid plays.
Does anyone have a list?
I think while everyone is trying to be cute there are going to be a non-zero amount of people getting curbed by elves players curving dork, into steel leaf champion into Coco all over people. I'm not even sure if shaman of the pack is worth the effort?
Black has some very powerful one drops at it's disposal in a format that is pretty slow. thoughtseize, push, deathrite... I expect black to be a major cornerstone of the format. Also, leyline of the void is probably going to be the best GY removal tool, which means Gary could be showing up to too.
Blue delve spells are going to be redic alongside cards like stitcher's supplier and satyr wayfinder.
White seems pretty weak at first glance.
To be fair I was just trying to quote an example for each point off the top of my head, I wouldn't even say these are the best examples to prove the point. I just think that when the restrictions are compromised the game becomes very homogenous.
Coco and baby Jace are great magic cards, but rally is what set the deck over in my eyes. The deck could have just run flash creatures if it needed bodies for the same effect. If the deck couldn't go green creature, black creature, coco, rally with no mana issues then it wouldn't have been as oppressive. Fetching in that deck was actually kinda hard.
The JTMS comment was more centered around breaking the pie has historically led to tournament staple if it's priced to move. It creates a burden on the supply of demand spikes. Jace let blue handle a TON of situations all in one card. It screwed with the board, it screwed with their draws, it dig you 3 deep to find an answer to a question, it was a win condition. It checked too many boxes in one card (advantage, control, win condition).
Black is getting artifact removal added to its toolbox. Mark rosewater (Maro) posts a ton of great articles describing why the color pie is so important, and the ramifications of a bending a break. Colors do get to play around in each other's space, but it has to be done in a way that color cares about.
A bonus for a color doing something in a way it cares about is that the gameplans start synergizing well. I used the example of fight being greens removal mechanic. Well yeah it sucks having to have a creature out, but green wants creatures out anyway. When you start stapling the fight mechanic to creatures you can get some very interesting board states and the creatures become more impactful. You start actively looking for keywords like deathtouch or lifelink to bring up the value of the fight spell. For example sedge scorpion is great in core 2020 limited, but it makes fight cards phenomenal veause now you can snipe your opponents bomb if it has flying. If this were a kill spell like murder you just bank it until the flyer comes down and continue to turn dudes sideways. Not as interactive.
I also think it's important to note that a lot of your concerns are being addressed or are on the radar. Maro's articles and blogatog are great resources for reading about them. White has never historically needed much card advantage until formats like edh were introduced. Same with red and dealing with enchantments. This refocus gave us stuff like choas warp or modal spells like abrade. (Which btw I have a saheeli deck with liqumetal coating and altar of the brood!that uses abrade as small-medium creature removal or permanent removal if I use coating. The card is just great in that deck and it's removal of all types after t3 most games.)
Generally though rule of thumb seems to be:
White can deal with any permanent type. Usually destroy or exile. Whites versatility can requires addiotnal conditions (like destroy a tapped creature). Tons of grave hate, usually as a bonus.
Blue can counter, bounce, or steal any permanent type. Blue has issues dealing with the board. The best blue board wipe is engulf the shore lol. Next to no grave hate.
Black can discard any permanent type and destroy most. Not really lands and artifacts have just recently been added to the mix. Blacks versatility comes at a cost.l very often. Tons of grave hate.
Red can destroy artifacts and lands directly. Red can deal damage to any permanent type. Red cannot easily deal with enchantments by itself. Red has zero grave hate pretty much.
Green can deal with artifacts, enchantments, lands, and creatures with flying. It can deal with creatures by fighting. Green does have some grave hate sometimes.
There are exceptions to all these. Cards like fulminator mage can do a lot of work in a mono black shell who is threatening something black can't normally do. Add blacks recursion and it becomes pretty aggravating to play against.
I personally like the color pie because it frames and shepherds in my expectations when I sit accross from someone so I can make partially informed decisions. I don't like getting blindsided by weird one ofs like psionic blast. There are enough variables in the game Imho. I have been a huge proponent of modal cards in general. I will also say that I'm not a fan of the volume of card draw/advantage green has received in the last few years. courser of kruphix and tireless tracker provide too much velocity if you stumble against them and can't get them off the field. Courser can represent 2-3 draws and 3-4 life before I can remove it sometimes and that's insane for 3 mana and a decent toughness.
The community has been clamoring for red to get more steal efffects where possible.
The game has historically been balanced around the color pie. When cards like beast within are printed, they tend to break the game more often then not because you have one color that just runs away from the pack. This card was just recently recast as a white card in generous gift in MH1 for example. The green version isn't going anywhere, but destroying anything is something white does.
When you have a clear forerunner there are a few things that tend to happen:
A) the format breaks down to that deck, or decks that beat that deck. When the removal or payoffs are even too strong after that the format becomes that deck and versions of itself to beat itself. We started seeing this with the Hogaak bridgevine decks maiming 4 copies of leyline of the void.
B) distribution becomes an absolute nightmare. When a card is out of line like jace, the mind sculptor in standard it becomes increasingly harder to find product that is priced as it should be. There was a point before his standard ban that buying a box and pulling a Jace netted a gamestore money...excluding the rest of the contents. The product was drying up and it wasn't making it to the players. They also cut the print run eventually which causes more headaches. We are seeing this again with MH1 staples just absolutely skyrocketing to try and justify the cost of a box to the end consumer.
C) every color can have each macro effect, but it has to have it in a way that is resonant in that color. The game leans hard on resonant themes that expect the player to have some knowledge of a thing or setting prior to sitting down. I don't have to teach you what a zombie is, and zombies that mechanical do something in the graveyard like gravedigger are easy to understand. The game builds on this further by its age, colors tend to dip into the same thematic waters over time. For example green does get creature removal, but it's the fight mechanic.
D) it actually entices players to go more than one color, which introduces more variance, and makes for better games. If you the have resources to answer all the threats or present the most potent threats then you're firmly the favorite to win before you even sit down. I'll point you to the khans of tarkir block as an example, the mana was so good that running 4-5 colors was actually the norm. It allowed players to play whatever the best suite of cards were and completely circumvent the weaknesses of each color. The result was the silly 4c collected company / rally the ancestors deck that could instant speed you out of nowhere the second you tapped out. The deck has mainboard answers to any relevant permanent type. The saheeli rai 4 color combo deck in kld/aer standard is another offender that had great mana and a very good threat suite. The deck ran almost no artifact gate because it didn't need to, there were no artifacts that really threatened it. It could have though, with little impact to its game plan.
E) the cards you're looking for are printed, but they're sly about it. Generic hate for specific mechanical decks does show up in artifacts. pithing needle for activated abilities. dampening sphere for storm or xerox decks. relic of progenitus for graveyards. There are a bunch.
F) card draw isn't something that should be stapled to every card. treasure cruise started warping legacy/modern in short order as everyone just started forcing a manabase that supported blue simple for the draw effect. dig through time wasn't far behind. Drawing extra cards is really a huge deal in the game and it's one of the effects new players tend to grossly undervalue.
G) you mentioned some specific card types/colors like black and artifacts. It's so some decks can present a threat that is harder to answer. If black just 1-1 or 2-1 you all day with removal, you probably aren't going to be able to stick anything meaningful. Having an artifact that can cause a speedbump for then helps because then it's an actual game. That artifact shouldn't win the game on the spot, but it needs to help. Same with red and enchantments. Note that GB can deal with anything in a number of cards.
I think the criteria they used was fair and well supported. Those win rates are scary and not really something I want floating around the meta. I imagine that we'll be seeing more and more of this as we get stronger payoff cards with every set.
I'm glad they didn't wait, because sometimes I feel like waiting can send a signal that something like this is okay. I'm not in support of knee jerk reactions, but I think that they were a little too complacent with eldrazi. I remember being at a regionals event (200-300 players) and a large group of us lamenting not being able to break into the top tables that were 60-70% eldrazi players who were able to pick up pieces early. I played some great magic that weekend and even played a deck with a decent match up against it (elves); that deck just played a different game altogether.
I know there will be users who lament a ban that isn't backed by GP/Open/pro tour (or whatever they call the high end tournaments now) track record, but I think this is exactly the benefit of MTGO. They cited some strong numbers and this deck was still in its infancy for some of the 3 week period they referenced - which means slightly less refined lists and pilots moving into the deck for first reps.
Do I think the format slows down? Mmm not really. I still think neobrand is silly magic, and I still think there are decks that can deploy virtual t2-3 kills too often even if they don't end the games on those turns. I wouldn't be surprised if they start trimming more of these offenders out over time.
It's cool for an iconic character to have a played card for sure. The problem is kitchen sink design (zatalpa, emrakul, etc.) just leads to poor gameplay I think. Urza just has a ton of very relevant text. Does he really need to survive bolt too? He never struck me as a particularly sturdy character prespark.
I mean the forums were all talking about potentially busted sai was going to be in similar lists and he would show up here or there as a two of maybe. For 1 mana more I get to turn my slow 2 card combo i already wanted to run into infinite mana/life/draw my deck. Not to mention how well it plays with the rest of the pieces you're already running.
I think the deck is okay to have around for now, but I'm not a fan of how quickly some of the new decks to beat can shift between game plans.
Decks like Phoenix/Urza/hoggak can progress multiple game plans at once while seeing a high volume of cards. Even if you path 1-2 Phoenix you're still fighting the yard/thing/and aria of flame. Even if you hit hoggak with yard hate you're still slogging trough 8-20 power on board accross multiple bodies by t2 sometimes. Even if you have spot removal for Urza you still need to have artifact removal for the sword combo/prison elements of the deck.
This is what has been bogging me down in the format the most. Decks can shift gears seamlessly and really turn the corner in two turns in most cases to execute a win. I ran westvale abbey in elves but the cost of not tapping for G on T1 AND having to sac 5 guys was very real. Where is the cost to these payoff cards they keep printing? Where is the sacrifice if my opponent can respond?
I feel kinda silly that I was so hyped for Serra when she reads like serras angel in most cases and there were cards like this in the set.
I'm looking for cash, no store credit or trades. I'm just at a point with my collection that stuff like MH1 is making it too expensive to keep up. I also can't really justify having this much money in cardboard I don't even play at my LGS because I always default to the same few decks.
Most everything is playsets. I also have quite a few older things hat have spiked in the last couple years (not reserved list) that I want to move.
I was planning on talking to LGS and players I know first, but I'm at a loss after that. I think the volume of cards is going to cause a big retailer like star city games to fight me in a lot of the grading.
If you T1 do a thing, t2 puresteel paladin pass, they either bolt your pld or deploy a threat, at that point if they don't have an answer (which can and does happen) you have plenty of tutor options to just go ham. T3 trinket mage, pitch ssg play the hammer you tutored and equip for free on trinket mage makes that search for azcanta your opp played look silly. Then removal HAS to be pointed at the mage while puresteel gets to keep handing out hammers fo free until they kill him too.
This is all back up to the steelshaper's gift / sigarda's aid + duelist route.
Sprinkle in apostle's blessing to taste. Maybe even GWu so you can access cards like blossoming defense or other goodies so it survives.
glistner elf can be an effective duelist copies 4-8. I mean if elf connects that's game too.
4 kor duelist
4 glistner elf
4 puresteel paladin
4 sigarda's aid
4 steelshaper's gift
4 open the armory
4 colossus hammer
2 argentum armor
2 apostle's blessing
2 rancor
4 blossoming defense
2 path to exile
2 trinket mage
Duelist/elf art your beats.
Aid/paladin let you equip for cheap.
Blessing/defense let you protect the combo.
Gift/armory/mage are tutors (mage is backup beats).
Then you can run hateful equipment in the side like swords, etc. mage can grab pithing needle, grafdiggers cage, relic, etc if you need to.
T1 vial, t2 2nd land play condemned eot vial in gorger, t3 swing discard stormkirk captain and play it for madness and bash in for 8, vial is still up for 2 if I wanna flash anything else in.
Im going to brew with sorin and the vamps for sure. I'll start by figuring out a) what is my shortest clock to 20 damage going to look like, b) what is the most recursion I can get, and c) what is the most disruptive deck I can make. Then I'll go from there and figure out a good build.
Zombies, humans, and eldrazi can all attack the hand while deploying threats which is critical to the success of those tribes I think. Vamps can't. :/
It's pretty telling how I get excited for a card like goblin engineer and then realize my opponent will have milled me out or presented a lethal amount of zombies and hogaaks on the board before I can even cast him in most games.
Lol true but doesn't mean you don't want to be prepared for mana flood. I do agree a fetch/shock/basics will eat up your first 12-16 slots in almost all decks. That doesn't leave much room for utility lands.
They do it, but often these are so that the card plays similar to how most players are already playing the card (like teferi, hero of dominaria untapping two lands).
You're right though, this is a form of patching. I think the thought is something that changes the card numerically (power, toughness, cmc, etc.) is harder to track and remember than a rules clarification that doesn't always matter.
Like with pridemate, the cases where a player wouldn't elect to put counters on it are so far and few between, the change didn't impact the majority of gameplay. This kind of stuff you can change and let it coast under the radar.
My concern is they take it too liberally in conjunction with arena.
Maybe we give digital a longer lead time than paper so they can preemptively move in correcting paper. For example send each LGS say 150 copies of corrected versions of a card that players can freely trade in up to four copies of a card that was "patched." LGS gets incentivized to return outdated copies to wizards (future discounts, store perks, etc.). That way there aren't feel bads when you open one AND LGS is compensated for the hassle. You can play with a patched original, but you go by the oracle text, players are incentivized to trade them in though.
Pack of replacements may cost them a $1-2 in material and shipping per LGS? Just make sure all GPS are stocked and you're gtg.
trade in programs can be very good solutions for these types of things.
Color dependent but I think they're more useful than the fast lands (blooming marsh etc) for any deck than wants to have a game plan post t4 and has an average cmc of 2-3. That's a pretty wide array of decks and I'd be surprised if they don't eventually sit higher than that cycle in time (personal opinion).
Bottom price is very dependent on if any more cards from MH1 end up like the new bridgevine cards where significant chunks of EV start to shift around the box. I can't really say but I'll be picking up two of each for $10-15, sub 10 and I'm biting on a playset.
Even after an expodition and a reprint horizon canopy still had a pretty high price tag. Granted it was the only one but some of these color combos have notoriously run low cmc curves (UR for example) where you would even fit from the drawing.
I think GB is weird to try and gauge because the color combo has gotten a significant shot in the arm recently with CA (tireless tracker, courser of kruphix, arguel's blood fast, glint-sleeve siphoner). Wotc seems to be throwing a solid piece of CA at these colors for the past few years and I'm not sure it's going to slow down (explore mechanic and the current green walkers in standard).
I thought they said it was click intensive as a may ability, and it's not an earth shattering card to test the waters with imo.
I'm highly highly skeptical we'll ever see paper "patches" as banning and printing a fixed version has been the go to strat for years. They generate sales, we don't have to deal with a format being broken until a safety valve can be released, and it's just all around cleaner. Especially since magic is multilingual and artwork is key in identifying a card (yes we go by the oracle text in tournaments, but we identify and process board state data largely by card position and artwork).
We've even seen it with stuff that's in the reserved list and getting cards like deep forest hermit. Its too strong for standard (9 p/t accross 5 bodies for 5 mana is kinda powerful). They can't print the old card, so you riff of it and make something new. Often times it's more fun anyway (better creature types, better stats/mana, or an effect that doesn't break the game wide open like time walk).
My gut feeling to pridemate was that they were very leery about introducing another functional reprint at 2 cmc as it could seriously throw standard out of whack or have eternal format effects (soul sisters wouldn't mind 8 goyfs, fwiw). I would have rather seen an edit on the design (make it legendary and give it trample) instead of the errata though.
They can always revert the change as well once the card rotates from standard. I doubt they will, but it's an option.