Question regarding Lantern MU since I have ZERO experience vs that deck: why would we board out Archdruids?
@ralstn
Checked out your sideboard guide. Seems like everything checks out. I recommend looking into Sigarda, Host of Herons rather than Tajuru Preserver. Although it is easier to Chord for and is Coco-able, Sigarda seems a lot better against a variety of decks. BGx, UWx, Tron, fringe decks that can attack through the air. It's also an awesome beater against fair or go-wide decks.
I currently run Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze mainboard. Thinking of just cutting the Ooze all together but my sideboard is pretty fine-tuned already with it on the main. It's GY hate, life gain, and threat all in one. Absolute nuts against a lot of decks. Spellskite protects the combo if need be. I've had a lot of free wins just because of this guy. I wouldn't worry about it too much though. That's what our flex spots are for.
For Lantern - their way to win (mainly) is to drop an Ensnaring Bridge then empty their hand. After that - control the top of your deck so you dont draw a way to remove the ensnaring bridge. With Archdruid out - harder to get in for damage when they drop bridge but still have 1 or 2 cards in hand w/ its permanent buff.
Spellskite was my last cut! Especially with infect popping up every now and again - was keen on trying to make it work. What does your SB currently look like?
I think 4 Essence wardens is too many, i would rather play some of the other elves you cut or something like Eternal witness,Ooze or even a spellskite. Also agree with Larriepogi that revoker is not a main deckable card, some of the cards i just mentioned would be better imo.
And for utility land i am more in to The Prins then Nykthos.
For consistency of the effect and wanting to rely on them for some of my matchups where I tend to race / don't have paths for (see post above to Larripogi). That slot was previously an EWitt but again - wanted more flexibility with my SB (essentially at 16 cards in this list) - thought it was the best option. I know I am kind of zeroing in - but to take out revoker means finding another slot in the SB for Revoker. Also do you mean Westvale over Nykthos? Not sure what The Prins is.
Sideboard:
I have never played Leyline, so i would like to hear why you bring them and no graveyard hate at all? With 10 white sources in the mana base you can play R.I.P. it is so good against alot of decks.. It is very good against Storm! I would cut those 3 and get som RIP and removal spells, path or dismember.
Leyline being a central answer to both Storm and Titan Shift is the why. With Dredge - I find conflagurate is the only problem which Selfless/BFT is there for - essence wardens help keep a little ahead in terms of racing. DS/Snap decks tend to try to grind you out - so Shapers' is coming in as my spells vs grave yard hate spells.
I have been thinking alot about playing tajuru preserver, but i allways end up not playing it unless i think there is alot of living end going around. E-tron only have 3 all is dust after board. It is too narov.
Great - note. Looking over my plan - I only side them in for 4 MUs (Eldrazi Tran, Living End, and Emrakuel MUs). Additional note is it does stop Annihilator (I think).
Sideboard plan:
In the lantern MU i would board out all the 4 archdruids..
In the burn MU i like the combo, i dont board out devoted druid, they are forced to use a spell on them.
all in all i think you lack removal and gy hate
For Lantern - my thought was life gain does not matter at all so take out all 4 - and sometimes an arch druid gets that lethal in before they can lock (or after you remove the lock piece). But also they are only 1/1s so easier to get under bridge for sure.
For burn - my thought was this is a pure race. Devoted druid can't attack - can't block their creatures without chumping. Kind of a "do nothing" two drop when its hard to have the combo stick through their removal.
For removal - its brutal against CoCo combo. I find that to be a hard MU b/c they are more flexible to disrupt our plan while working to their combo so I want to rely on my normal game plan. For other MUs - see my #2 note to Larriepogi.
Not a fan of the mainboard Revoker. I can see it being great in some match-ups but there are times that it's a dead card.
Going with Leylines instead of Paths is a meta call IMO. If you have lots of Storm, BGx, and Burn decks in your meta then sure but Paths are good against Death's Shadow, Eldrazi, DnT, CoCo decks, Merfolk, and a whole lot of other decks so you should take that into account.
I'm having second thoughts on Shaper's Sanctuary mainly because I haven't really tested it that much. I really think it is better than Lead the Stampede given the chance. Though I feel like Leads are better topdecks and can help us recover from a well-timed board wipe or hands with lots of tempo cards like electrolyzes and bolts.
Good luck and please post your results on here.
#1 - I can see that. The only matchups i find it truly dead in are: Storm, Titan Shift, Burn [minus lavamancer], Dredge, UR Breach, Living End. In these you can at least name their main fetch (Scalding Tarn, Wooded Foothills for storm/titan shift). The rest there is a target i wouldn't mind naming in the matchup/I leave revoker in. In the end - it was the sideboard card I had i liked the best MD. Argument could be made for rec sage but find that dead about the same amount of time.
@larriepogi Of that sideboard - which would you run main deck?
#2 - Correct - this has been going back and forth between. I am currently prepping for GP OKC in December and want to use this larger tournament to try the Leyline plan and see if Essence Warden main (over Nettle Sentinel)is enough to swing some of the racing type matchups that Path is there for (D Shadow, Eldrazi, DnT, Merfolk, Affinity etc) to where I can take the hit of not having them in my sideboard. Allowing for a better card vs decks I have more trouble with (Titan Shift / Storm). I have't tried Essence Warden before so want to see.
#3 - Bring up a great point I hand't thought of initially. Maybe something like a 2/2 split between sanctuary and lead would help with that. Less of a chance to have in your opener (sanctuary) but hedges against the top deck. The top deck piece is why I had shaved it down to 3 from 4.
I'll make sure to post them - also have a 1k on Sunday I plan on going to so should have 2x results.
Going to one of the regionals this weekend with GW Elves (Vizier Combo). Below is my maindeck and SB - wanted to get people's opinion on the SB guide I put together based on the below sideboard (feedback on cards im bringing in and out for matchups). While I am open to feedback on the SB itself - also let me know what you think based on the SB below. The main change I have been contemplating due to slow/lower impact is taking out Aven Mindscensor and putting in a Rest In Peace instead. The Revoker in the main is essentially a16th SB card - best one i thought for the main deck.
Happy to answer any questions / thought process on SB approaches listed as well.
I won a Nerd Rage Gaming Championship Trial Qualifier today. MVP was 4-of Shapers' Sanctuary in the board. Played 4 midrange and 1 control match today, and none of them could deal with Shapers'. Also beat a UR Storm and Burn deck. Total record 13-3 in games today, with one unintentional draw and one intentional draw.
Round 1 UW Pillowfort (Control)2-1
Game 1 Stalled with Gideons and Flip Jace until he could start swinging with Gideons for the win.
Game 2 He tapped out to Spreading Seas me, I T3 combo him.
Game 3 He taps down my team before combat with Cryptic Command, I had double Devoted Druid Ezuri so I infinite overrun in response and kill him with Devoted Druids.
Round 2 Naya Burn 2-0
Couldn't deal with mainboard Essence Wardens, and then tried to play an attrition matchup with elves.
Round 3 Sultai Midrange 1-1-1
He stalled a boardstate long enough to force the draw, but he couldn't get through a few elves and 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys.
Round 4 Esper Shadow 2-0
Game 1 He was stuck on 1 land.
Game 2 I landed 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys by the end of the game and he couldn't keep my board down from there.
Round 5 ID with 4-Color Shadow
Made 2nd Seed
Top 8 UR Storm 2-0 (Overall 7th Seed)
Game 1 He wipes my board with Grapeshot, but I quickly rebuild, CoCo into Dwynen's Ezuri and swing for lethal.
Game 2 He taps out to play Serum Visions and Baral, I turn 3 combo.
Top 4 Grandpa (Classic) Jund 2-1 (Overall 3rd seed)
Game 1 Got run over by a swarm of Goblin Rabblemaster tokens.
Game 2 Hit Ezuri and Dwynen's again for a lethal swing through two Goyfs and a Bob.
Game 3 Started with 3 Shapers' Sanctuarys in hand. Played them all, forcing removing a couple times completely outdrawing him and finally landing a Colossus and Elvish Champion for Forestwalk.
Finals 4-Color Shadow 2-0(Overall 1st Seed)
Game 1 He had a very aggressive hand, but was low on removal and couldn't stop an Ezuri from sticking.
Game 2 Shapers' Sanctuary blanked most of his removal and Elvish Champion prevented Liliana Last Hope from killing dorks, leading to forestwalking elves winning the match.
Shapers' Sanctuary is a house. You should play it. Probably just as good in any color variant.
How did you board against storm? Do you take the essence wardens out?
Fatal push would not work as Ormendal is indestructible. They could still target (as, when flipped, is a creature and a land would be 0 CMC) but the spell would resolve without removing Ormendal.
Now to enter the random lottery to get featured on Goldfish tomorrow. The deck is seriously well positioned atm.
How have you been approaching Burn matchups? I feel a little lacking in support against the matchup without Kitchen Finks in the SB. They have all been close (3 of the 4 games i lost - i got him to one before he had lethal). Sometimes its been b/c of slowdown to deal with an Eidolon or have to play through it to get a board that can block it (so it doesnt attack while i hold out for CoCos and Chords). I know play/draw is big in this one but wondering what approach / what types of hands kept you do. A lot of the times they hold up the life gain negater so Finks is only good 50/50. The flexibility of able to 2 for 1 their removal/attacking creatures and while at the same time being 3 power beater (which they dont want to block) when needed makes up for that.
Shapers' Sanctuary looks sweet. Any chance of this card seeing play in Elves on the sb? Definitely a better Fecundity
Post sideboard games you're going to most likely be facing down more sweepers, so I'm not sure how relevant it would be over Fecundity. Then again, it is only 1 mana.
I like it over Lifecrafter's I think. Having to rely on your opponent for the advantage but coming down as soon as T1 vs Lifecrafters 3 mana initial investment + 1 mana each draw but benefit controlled by you and having the continuous scry. Also woudn't die to K Command like Lifecrafters does.
Essentially turns all opponents non mass removal into letting us draw a card. Would get two draws for things like electrolyze killing two creatures etc. Against grixis/jund I could see it as an option.
Yeah I feel like Unclaimed Territory could replace some Blooming Marsh in GB build. I also like the idea of it enabling colorless cards like TKS, maybe some warping wail sideboard
Oh man...the thought of countering an anger of the gods or scapeshift against valakut....
Has anyone seen the Unclaimed Territory land from the new spoilers? looks solid
I could see adding 1 or 2 in the GB build or if you want to play the thought-knot version that was being experimented with a few pages back.
The problem comes with having enough green sources for the coco/chord. In the G/W version most of the white cards are non elves. With GB - you still have a lot of cards in the SB that are spells.
It will be nice as a budget option over Cavern of Souls though for newer players.
So, I guess I'm not having as much success as everyone else. I see that the deck has 5-0'd a few times recently on MTGO (where I play), but I can't for the life of me see similar results. Just today alone I've lost matches against Saheli combo, Abzan DS, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift, and Burn. I'm not sure I've even won a match yet.
I'm assuming a lot of this is pilot error, since my list is very similar to all of yours, but right now I'm feeling really weak. I know the deck can do some pretty powerful stuff, and I've done that while goldfishing, but with all of the interactive decks out there (especially post board), I'm finding myself losing a lot more than winning (probably a 20-80 split).
If I can ask the more experienced players here a few questions, I'd be forever grateful for some replies:
1a. What do you like to see in your opening hand to know you have a good running opener?
1b. Conversely, what don't you like to see in your opening hand/what causes you to mulligan? Obviously all land or no land is an auto-mull, but outside of that I'm curious.
2. I know all sideboards are different, but in general what are you removing from your deck to make room for sideboard cards? Assume a lot of your SB cards are non-creatures if that helps.
3. Has there been any consensus on what "version" of the deck has been running better? I've seen GB and Junk versions doing well results wise, and mine is Junk (mostly for the board, but also for Shaman).
4. What are our best match-ups? Our worst? What makes those our best/worst match-ups?
Thanks a ton! I'll read over the title post again and edit this if I find out my questions have already been covered. Cheers!
One of the 5-0 lists was mine. I am finishing going back on replays (while watching Bad007's stream) to fill out the matchup information I outlined earlier and can let you know what the matchups were.
I have played GW, GB, Abzan and don't think Abzan is right for me. Prefer the consistent manabase and ability to switch a land or two for a utility land if needed. Shaman of the Pack has played big in wins I had no business winning. GW's reliance on Ezuri was the biggest reason I moved to GB even though GW has more flexibility to responding to opponents strategies. Shaman provides two plans of attack you can switch between based on how the opponent responds with retaliative ease. Also I think being proactive (things like thoughtsieze) is better than being reactive (going for W one ofs) in this meta. So many people know the hate cards that can come in and are ready for them that being reactive isn't always the best.
You should never play Thoughtseize on T1. Most of the problematic cards such as boardwipes can only come on T3/4 which means you want to be casting Thoughtseize on T2/T3.
That makes sense for sure - thanks!
For the T2 play there - would you have Thoughtsiezed or gone with archduird? How about if on the draw? My thought was nothing too problematic with waiting until my T3 to thoughtsieze being on the play but if on the draw it would be better to thoughtsieze him on my T2 before his T3.
Also agree on the above - for a 3 mana artifact rather have Lifecrafter's. Hoping to try that out in a league or two to see how i like it over the third Lead the Stampede.
I PMed with Baad007 about grinding games as well with the deck but preparing for GP Vegas (both Modern and Legacy elves). Noted that I was planning on tracking match up and Win/Loss data. Below were my planned data points I was going to track but wanted to see if anyone else would be interested in other data points. Ill post a link to the data once I get into the 100 game range (currently only at 40).
Deck Name
Deck Version
Match W/L
Opponent
Opponent's Deck
Game 1 P/D [Play/Draw]
Game 1 Mull [Tracking starting hand size]
Game 1 W/L
Game 2 P/D
Game 2 Mull
Game 2 W/L
Game 3 P/D
Game 3 Mull
Game 3 W/L
Sideboard +
Mainboard -
Overall Comments [Note any interesting lines - P/D SBing differences]
Have a question/scenario - below - what is the T2 play (Game 3 against Eldrazi Tron)? I drew the thoughtsieze T2 so wasn't able to play it T1 (also an interesting question of T1 Dork vs Thoughtsieze if I did have it).
I went with T2 Archdruid. Opponent played a T2 Walking Ballista but got a All is Dust playing thoughtsieze T3 (Lead Stampede and DElite off Lead as well).
Opponent next turn got Tron but didnt pump Ballista (played Batterskull instead) to kill the archdruid which let me go off on my T4...
For Lantern - their way to win (mainly) is to drop an Ensnaring Bridge then empty their hand. After that - control the top of your deck so you dont draw a way to remove the ensnaring bridge. With Archdruid out - harder to get in for damage when they drop bridge but still have 1 or 2 cards in hand w/ its permanent buff.
Spellskite was my last cut! Especially with infect popping up every now and again - was keen on trying to make it work. What does your SB currently look like?
For consistency of the effect and wanting to rely on them for some of my matchups where I tend to race / don't have paths for (see post above to Larripogi). That slot was previously an EWitt but again - wanted more flexibility with my SB (essentially at 16 cards in this list) - thought it was the best option. I know I am kind of zeroing in - but to take out revoker means finding another slot in the SB for Revoker. Also do you mean Westvale over Nykthos? Not sure what The Prins is.
Leyline being a central answer to both Storm and Titan Shift is the why. With Dredge - I find conflagurate is the only problem which Selfless/BFT is there for - essence wardens help keep a little ahead in terms of racing. DS/Snap decks tend to try to grind you out - so Shapers' is coming in as my spells vs grave yard hate spells.
Great - note. Looking over my plan - I only side them in for 4 MUs (Eldrazi Tran, Living End, and Emrakuel MUs). Additional note is it does stop Annihilator (I think).
For Lantern - my thought was life gain does not matter at all so take out all 4 - and sometimes an arch druid gets that lethal in before they can lock (or after you remove the lock piece). But also they are only 1/1s so easier to get under bridge for sure.
For burn - my thought was this is a pure race. Devoted druid can't attack - can't block their creatures without chumping. Kind of a "do nothing" two drop when its hard to have the combo stick through their removal.
For removal - its brutal against CoCo combo. I find that to be a hard MU b/c they are more flexible to disrupt our plan while working to their combo so I want to rely on my normal game plan. For other MUs - see my #2 note to Larriepogi.
Interested to see your SB config!
#1 - I can see that. The only matchups i find it truly dead in are: Storm, Titan Shift, Burn [minus lavamancer], Dredge, UR Breach, Living End. In these you can at least name their main fetch (Scalding Tarn, Wooded Foothills for storm/titan shift). The rest there is a target i wouldn't mind naming in the matchup/I leave revoker in. In the end - it was the sideboard card I had i liked the best MD. Argument could be made for rec sage but find that dead about the same amount of time.
@larriepogi Of that sideboard - which would you run main deck?
#2 - Correct - this has been going back and forth between. I am currently prepping for GP OKC in December and want to use this larger tournament to try the Leyline plan and see if Essence Warden main (over Nettle Sentinel)is enough to swing some of the racing type matchups that Path is there for (D Shadow, Eldrazi, DnT, Merfolk, Affinity etc) to where I can take the hit of not having them in my sideboard. Allowing for a better card vs decks I have more trouble with (Titan Shift / Storm). I have't tried Essence Warden before so want to see.
#3 - Bring up a great point I hand't thought of initially. Maybe something like a 2/2 split between sanctuary and lead would help with that. Less of a chance to have in your opener (sanctuary) but hedges against the top deck. The top deck piece is why I had shaved it down to 3 from 4.
I'll make sure to post them - also have a 1k on Sunday I plan on going to so should have 2x results.
Happy to answer any questions / thought process on SB approaches listed as well.
Deck:
2 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Pendelhaven
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Temple Garden
2 Windswept Heath
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
4 Devoted Druid
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Essence Warden
4 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Vizier of Remedies
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
3 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Selfless Spirit
3 Shapers' Sanctuary
1 Stony Silence
1 Tajuru Preserver
SB Guide: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1e_k_9L_djWMwzF953oLCdD8kCgTQSx-jNipE07HJXQw/edit?usp=sharing
How did you board against storm? Do you take the essence wardens out?
Fatal push would not work as Ormendal is indestructible. They could still target (as, when flipped, is a creature and a land would be 0 CMC) but the spell would resolve without removing Ormendal.
Only have to worry about exile effects.
How have you been approaching Burn matchups? I feel a little lacking in support against the matchup without Kitchen Finks in the SB. They have all been close (3 of the 4 games i lost - i got him to one before he had lethal). Sometimes its been b/c of slowdown to deal with an Eidolon or have to play through it to get a board that can block it (so it doesnt attack while i hold out for CoCos and Chords). I know play/draw is big in this one but wondering what approach / what types of hands kept you do. A lot of the times they hold up the life gain negater so Finks is only good 50/50. The flexibility of able to 2 for 1 their removal/attacking creatures and while at the same time being 3 power beater (which they dont want to block) when needed makes up for that.
I like it over Lifecrafter's I think. Having to rely on your opponent for the advantage but coming down as soon as T1 vs Lifecrafters 3 mana initial investment + 1 mana each draw but benefit controlled by you and having the continuous scry. Also woudn't die to K Command like Lifecrafters does.
Essentially turns all opponents non mass removal into letting us draw a card. Would get two draws for things like electrolyze killing two creatures etc. Against grixis/jund I could see it as an option.
Oh man...the thought of countering an anger of the gods or scapeshift against valakut....
I could see adding 1 or 2 in the GB build or if you want to play the thought-knot version that was being experimented with a few pages back.
The problem comes with having enough green sources for the coco/chord. In the G/W version most of the white cards are non elves. With GB - you still have a lot of cards in the SB that are spells.
It will be nice as a budget option over Cavern of Souls though for newer players.
For those who haven't seen: http://mythicspoiler.com/ixa/cards/unclaimedterritory.html
One of the 5-0 lists was mine. I am finishing going back on replays (while watching Bad007's stream) to fill out the matchup information I outlined earlier and can let you know what the matchups were.
I have played GW, GB, Abzan and don't think Abzan is right for me. Prefer the consistent manabase and ability to switch a land or two for a utility land if needed. Shaman of the Pack has played big in wins I had no business winning. GW's reliance on Ezuri was the biggest reason I moved to GB even though GW has more flexibility to responding to opponents strategies. Shaman provides two plans of attack you can switch between based on how the opponent responds with retaliative ease. Also I think being proactive (things like thoughtsieze) is better than being reactive (going for W one ofs) in this meta. So many people know the hate cards that can come in and are ready for them that being reactive isn't always the best.
That makes sense for sure - thanks!
For the T2 play there - would you have Thoughtsiezed or gone with archduird? How about if on the draw? My thought was nothing too problematic with waiting until my T3 to thoughtsieze being on the play but if on the draw it would be better to thoughtsieze him on my T2 before his T3.
Also agree on the above - for a 3 mana artifact rather have Lifecrafter's. Hoping to try that out in a league or two to see how i like it over the third Lead the Stampede.
I PMed with Baad007 about grinding games as well with the deck but preparing for GP Vegas (both Modern and Legacy elves). Noted that I was planning on tracking match up and Win/Loss data. Below were my planned data points I was going to track but wanted to see if anyone else would be interested in other data points. Ill post a link to the data once I get into the 100 game range (currently only at 40).
Deck Name
Deck Version
Match W/L
Opponent
Opponent's Deck
Game 1 P/D [Play/Draw]
Game 1 Mull [Tracking starting hand size]
Game 1 W/L
Game 2 P/D
Game 2 Mull
Game 2 W/L
Game 3 P/D
Game 3 Mull
Game 3 W/L
Sideboard +
Mainboard -
Overall Comments [Note any interesting lines - P/D SBing differences]
Opponent next turn got Tron but didnt pump Ballista (played Batterskull instead) to kill the archdruid which let me go off on my T4...