Has there been any consideration for wraths like Nahiri’s Wrath? It may suck not getting the draw off them, but against an opposing aggro stratrgy it seems like a good way to clear the board and fill the grave.
Totally agree on that but the metagame is not full of trophy, path to exil and bloo moon. It's why i play 3 ravlands in Jund.
I think I'd respectfully disagree with you there. They are all immensely prevalent threats, and ones that aren't taken lightly. Path is among the top 3/50 spells commonly played in Modern, and also 3/50 cards played overall. Assassin's Trophy is about to break into the top 20 cards played overall in the 8 weeks it's been legal. I'm using goldfish's metrics, but if it were as you are suggesting, these cards wouldn't be as highly placed as they are. Blood Moon is probably the only exception as it occupies the 46th spot and only in top spells played, but that it places at all is still telling that decks still do run it because decks still die to it.
Burn is still largely threatening in that it's cheap to build, and highly resilient. Most burn decks will run Blood Moon in the side. Blue Moon is also seeing more play lately, and they mainboard it. Jeskai/UW control have paths in the main as well as Field of Ruin. Mardu Pyromancers have Blood Moon in their mainboard as well. Mirror matches will have Assassin's Trophy, and Dredge now contains it in the side. These are only a couple of examples, but there's far more to suggest that running more basics is more beneficial for us in this current climate.
Well, i half agree here, humans and spirits are not stupid aggro deck which focus only on life points like old zoo or burn, loose some lifes more to have anger and bolt seems like a fair trade because a lot of times you want loose 3hp to kill a mantis rider or a spell queller quickly. I don't say it's a reason to prefear jund, just both ways are ok on this point for me. About dredge i more disagree because 2 life don't save you if you don't have any hate.
I feel like you're making light of dredge if you think 2 life won't matter in any capacity. Creeping Chill offers a 6-point life swing for free, and is largely uncounterable. And I've seen games won by Conflagrate where X=2. This is coming from a Dredge player; I only just recently sold Dredge to build BG last week! Preserving life does matter against Dredge, now more than ever with Creeping Chill. The extra shock and fetch lands will take their toll eventually, especially when you add Thoughtseize into the mix.
My whole point here is that a central reason for preferring Golgari to Jund is that it is relatively painless in comparison, which can be more appealing. This isn't discounting Jund in the slightest, and I hope no one takes my post that way. I think Jund has 3 excellent colours it uses, however if we're to break down both decks, and since you're asking why some prefer Golgari now over Jund, I thought I'd offer a few reasons as to why I chose to build Golgari over Jund last week. Anger of the Gods is one of Modern's strongest board wipes, Huntmaster of the Fells and BBE are excellent creatures and apply great pressure. Bolt and K-Cmd are fantastic spells.
That being said, if you're asking for a reason as to why people prefer Golgari to Jund, I'd say that a Painless land base and a higher basic count are among a few reasons why I went with it. I feel that 2 colours keeps things relatively consistent.
Jund can run 4 trophy too and can play with 0 BBE too.
I think I need to clarify that I never stated that Jund can't, but rather a typical Jund list will not run 4 Assassin's Trophies, and 0 BBE.
Both Jund and GB can play Yahenni's Expertise, for example, but that doesn't mean it's a norm, and that was more my point, apologies if I didn't explain it well enough
It's more of a norm to see less Assassin's Trophies and 3-4 BBE in any given Jund deck. Though there are BG decks that will opt for an even split of Trophies and Decays, and use the extra slots to fill out Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, or add Funeral Charm. So you're not wrong to take my broader generalization with a grain of salt; decks have flexibility and I was merely pointing out typical 75's you'd tend to see rather than the nuanced tweaks that players make to their builds.
I am ok with the life preservation justification but when nobody plays blood moon
I honestly don't think this is accurate. Blood Moon is still very much played in Modern. It's among the top 50 spells in modern as of this post. I'm using mtggoldfish's metrics, but to say nobody plays it isn't accurate if it still hits a top 50 list of the most common spells modern runs.
To conclude, after this discussion i really want try tireless tracker or another guy instead of BBE and maybe 2 surgical instead of the third alpine moon and the 4th artifact graveyard hate.
Thanks for an,swer !
In a meta that seems to be fairly heavy on Path to Exile, Field of Ruin, Blood Moon and Assassin’s Trophy, it stands to reason that some GBx players find having a larger spread of basics more beneficial to them.
I would say a typical golgari deck runs about 5-6 basics, wheras Jund typically has 3-4. A lot of that has to do with colour-fixing; spreading your resources across three colours means that running too many of a single coloured basic will be less reliable in getting the lands you need.
Jund offsets that by doubling the number of shocklands (2 vs 4). It needs the dual colours, and as such demands an increase in fetch lands to produce them. There’s nothing inherently bad about that, but it could be perceived that it may be disadvantgeous to some players, and that dividing your manabase into two colours as opposed to three would yield a greater consistency in getting the colours you need, for as little pain as possible - that is also another important factor to take in.
Aggro and Combo decks are fairly prevalent, with 5c Humans, Spirits and Dredge representing the top three decks constructed lately. All of these can deplete life totals rather quickly, and so it’s important to consider preserving life as best as possible. This is another reason why GB is seen as more preferential, as it only really needs 4 fetch lands, and 2 shocklands, meaning we aren’t losing as much life off them.
Because the basic count is much higher, it also means running 4 copies of Field of Ruin is more easily accomplished, and gives one of the great mainboard options to hit lands-matter decks like Tron.
GB also gives us the flexibility of running 4x Assassin’s Trophy, which I’ve grown accustomed to. Yes, running Lightning Bolt and K-Cmd have their advantages - with K-cmd’s modal versatility and Bolt’s applications for creature, walker, or direct damage - Assassin’s Trophy’s marriage of Path to Exile and Vindicate hits a broader array of targets, and to me it seems to be a better answer at a larger variety of decks. Sure, it’s one mana more, but I’ll gladly pay it when it’s a problem solver for anything. This also lets us fill out Fatal Push to 4. Depending on your build, typical Jund decks I’m seeing only can afford 2 slots for Pushes.
BBE is great, and will always feel good when Cascade into Goyf or Liliana, but there is always a chance that it just doesn’t hit something needed, like a push on a creatureless boardstate or a thoughtseize and inquisition on empty hands. Not only that but with Dark Confidant it also poses the risk of flipping it to Bob and losing a tad too mucn life. Theae are very situational, but to me are important factors to consider in why one variant is perhaps played more or preferred over another.
GB to me plays it much safer in its landbase and life preservation which can be a very crucial thing to consider when choosing between types.
You’re probably right! The 4th Autumn is probably overkill.
Voice was kinda inserted for that reason, as geists 5 and 6. It wasn’t specifically for something though control would usually reserve the more premium removal spells for it first so that’s an okay takeaway.
And I’m stoked to see how shaman performs. It could very well end up 1-1!
You really shouldn’t have a large problem, even with Creeping Chill.
Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Thalia are all very punishing against us. Your games 2/3 would likely run any number of Rest in Peaces (maybe, some human decks really go all out in versatile humans), Gaddock Teeg, Anafenza the Foremost etc are all good sideboard cards against Dredge
No offense @TheLoneN00b, but either you’re playing Humans incorrectly, or I’ve been misplaying dredge, as I’ve found Humans to be an incredibly tough matchup G1...
Your creatures get larger as you progress, interact with our hands, tax our effects, and can shut down a large wincon like Conflagrate.
If I don’t have an explosive start then I find humans to be an uphill battle rather quickly.
Revised my list to double the Basic count, in a reactive attempt to combat the wealth of Assassin's Trophies, Paths, Quarters and Field of Ruins I see:
Yeah I don’t think I’d ever cut Conflag from my list, it’s too powerful not to run 3 of. I like that list above; so they’ve chosen to board Darkblast for the 4th copy of Chill? That’s a decent idea, and it keeps Narcos at a 4 of as well. Looks like they also went with cutting Dakmor (or 1 land).
Has there been any consideration for wraths like Nahiri’s Wrath? It may suck not getting the draw off them, but against an opposing aggro stratrgy it seems like a good way to clear the board and fill the grave.
3 Deadshot Minotaur
4 Desert Cerodon
4 Flameblade Adept
4 Hollow One
2 Insolent Neonate
4 Monstrous Carabid
2 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Street Wraith
3 Urabrask the Hidden
2 Cathartic Reunion
4 Faithless Looting
4 Living End
4 Electrodominance
16 Mountain
I think I'd respectfully disagree with you there. They are all immensely prevalent threats, and ones that aren't taken lightly. Path is among the top 3/50 spells commonly played in Modern, and also 3/50 cards played overall. Assassin's Trophy is about to break into the top 20 cards played overall in the 8 weeks it's been legal. I'm using goldfish's metrics, but if it were as you are suggesting, these cards wouldn't be as highly placed as they are. Blood Moon is probably the only exception as it occupies the 46th spot and only in top spells played, but that it places at all is still telling that decks still do run it because decks still die to it.
Burn is still largely threatening in that it's cheap to build, and highly resilient. Most burn decks will run Blood Moon in the side. Blue Moon is also seeing more play lately, and they mainboard it. Jeskai/UW control have paths in the main as well as Field of Ruin. Mardu Pyromancers have Blood Moon in their mainboard as well. Mirror matches will have Assassin's Trophy, and Dredge now contains it in the side. These are only a couple of examples, but there's far more to suggest that running more basics is more beneficial for us in this current climate.
I feel like you're making light of dredge if you think 2 life won't matter in any capacity. Creeping Chill offers a 6-point life swing for free, and is largely uncounterable. And I've seen games won by Conflagrate where X=2. This is coming from a Dredge player; I only just recently sold Dredge to build BG last week! Preserving life does matter against Dredge, now more than ever with Creeping Chill. The extra shock and fetch lands will take their toll eventually, especially when you add Thoughtseize into the mix.
My whole point here is that a central reason for preferring Golgari to Jund is that it is relatively painless in comparison, which can be more appealing. This isn't discounting Jund in the slightest, and I hope no one takes my post that way. I think Jund has 3 excellent colours it uses, however if we're to break down both decks, and since you're asking why some prefer Golgari now over Jund, I thought I'd offer a few reasons as to why I chose to build Golgari over Jund last week. Anger of the Gods is one of Modern's strongest board wipes, Huntmaster of the Fells and BBE are excellent creatures and apply great pressure. Bolt and K-Cmd are fantastic spells.
That being said, if you're asking for a reason as to why people prefer Golgari to Jund, I'd say that a Painless land base and a higher basic count are among a few reasons why I went with it. I feel that 2 colours keeps things relatively consistent.
I think I need to clarify that I never stated that Jund can't, but rather a typical Jund list will not run 4 Assassin's Trophies, and 0 BBE.
Both Jund and GB can play Yahenni's Expertise, for example, but that doesn't mean it's a norm, and that was more my point, apologies if I didn't explain it well enough
It's more of a norm to see less Assassin's Trophies and 3-4 BBE in any given Jund deck. Though there are BG decks that will opt for an even split of Trophies and Decays, and use the extra slots to fill out Inquisition of Kozilek, Thoughtseize, or add Funeral Charm. So you're not wrong to take my broader generalization with a grain of salt; decks have flexibility and I was merely pointing out typical 75's you'd tend to see rather than the nuanced tweaks that players make to their builds.
I honestly don't think this is accurate. Blood Moon is still very much played in Modern. It's among the top 50 spells in modern as of this post. I'm using mtggoldfish's metrics, but to say nobody plays it isn't accurate if it still hits a top 50 list of the most common spells modern runs.
Thank you for the discussion
I would say a typical golgari deck runs about 5-6 basics, wheras Jund typically has 3-4. A lot of that has to do with colour-fixing; spreading your resources across three colours means that running too many of a single coloured basic will be less reliable in getting the lands you need.
Jund offsets that by doubling the number of shocklands (2 vs 4). It needs the dual colours, and as such demands an increase in fetch lands to produce them. There’s nothing inherently bad about that, but it could be perceived that it may be disadvantgeous to some players, and that dividing your manabase into two colours as opposed to three would yield a greater consistency in getting the colours you need, for as little pain as possible - that is also another important factor to take in.
Aggro and Combo decks are fairly prevalent, with 5c Humans, Spirits and Dredge representing the top three decks constructed lately. All of these can deplete life totals rather quickly, and so it’s important to consider preserving life as best as possible. This is another reason why GB is seen as more preferential, as it only really needs 4 fetch lands, and 2 shocklands, meaning we aren’t losing as much life off them.
Because the basic count is much higher, it also means running 4 copies of Field of Ruin is more easily accomplished, and gives one of the great mainboard options to hit lands-matter decks like Tron.
GB also gives us the flexibility of running 4x Assassin’s Trophy, which I’ve grown accustomed to. Yes, running Lightning Bolt and K-Cmd have their advantages - with K-cmd’s modal versatility and Bolt’s applications for creature, walker, or direct damage - Assassin’s Trophy’s marriage of Path to Exile and Vindicate hits a broader array of targets, and to me it seems to be a better answer at a larger variety of decks. Sure, it’s one mana more, but I’ll gladly pay it when it’s a problem solver for anything. This also lets us fill out Fatal Push to 4. Depending on your build, typical Jund decks I’m seeing only can afford 2 slots for Pushes.
BBE is great, and will always feel good when Cascade into Goyf or Liliana, but there is always a chance that it just doesn’t hit something needed, like a push on a creatureless boardstate or a thoughtseize and inquisition on empty hands. Not only that but with Dark Confidant it also poses the risk of flipping it to Bob and losing a tad too mucn life. Theae are very situational, but to me are important factors to consider in why one variant is perhaps played more or preferred over another.
GB to me plays it much safer in its landbase and life preservation which can be a very crucial thing to consider when choosing between types.
Voice was kinda inserted for that reason, as geists 5 and 6. It wasn’t specifically for something though control would usually reserve the more premium removal spells for it first so that’s an okay takeaway.
And I’m stoked to see how shaman performs. It could very well end up 1-1!
4 Cragganwick Cremator
4 Impervious Greatwurm
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Steel Leaf Champion
4 Strangleroot Geist
1 Shaman of the Great Hunt
2 Fauna Shaman
1 Magus of the Moon
3 Eldritch Evolution
4 Lightning Bolt
Lands:
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Fire-Lit Thicket
3 Copperline Gorge
4 Forest
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Mountain
2 Temple Garden
4 Knight of Autumn
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Heroic Intervention
2 Voice of Resurgence
1 Cataclysmic Gearhulk
1 Scavenging Ooze
Curious to see how shaman and bbe work! It seems sweet.
This was what I found. Not too sure about Lotleth Giant over Flayer of the Hatebound, either...
Meddling Mage, Reflector Mage, Kitesail Freebooter, and Thalia are all very punishing against us. Your games 2/3 would likely run any number of Rest in Peaces (maybe, some human decks really go all out in versatile humans), Gaddock Teeg, Anafenza the Foremost etc are all good sideboard cards against Dredge
Your creatures get larger as you progress, interact with our hands, tax our effects, and can shut down a large wincon like Conflagrate.
If I don’t have an explosive start then I find humans to be an uphill battle rather quickly.
1x Blood Crypt
3x Bloodstained Mire
4x Copperline Gorge
1x Forest
2x Gemstone Mine
1x Ghost Quarter
2x Mountain
1x Steam Vents
1x Stomping Ground
1x Swamp
2x Wooded Foothills
Creature:
4x Bloodghast
1x Golgari Thug
4x Narcomoeba
4x Prized Amalgam
1x Scourge Devil
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Cathartic Reunion
3x Conflagrate
4x Creeping Chill
4x Faithless Looting
3x Life from the Loam
Instant:
2x Darkblast
Artifact:
3x Shriekhorn
2x Ancient Grudge
2x Assassin's Trophy
1x Golgari Charm
3x Lightning Axe
4x Nature's Claim
3x Thoughtseize
Testing out Steam Vents as well, in crappy cases where Narco/Prized are drawn. Unsure of the 2x Assassin's Trophies.
I've noticed Nature's Way being played more often. What's it really strong against?
4 Sakura-Tribe Elder
4 Primeval Titan
3 Bloodbraid Elf
1 Pia and Kiran Nalar
2 Wood Elves
Spells:
1 Summoner's Pact
1 Anger of the Gods
1 Sweltering Suns
1 Hour of Devastation
1 Explore
2 Farseek
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Scapeshift
4 Search for Tomorrow
1 Prismatic Omen
Lands:
3 Cinder Glade
4 Stomping Groud
3 Forest
6 Mountain
4 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Obstinate Baloth
1 Nature's Claim
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Abrade
2 Damping Sphere
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Nissa, Vital Force
This was the list that took 14th place at SCG Columbus (yes it has 14 sideboard cards).
I'm super interested in building Titanshift.
Is Carnage Tyrant played in the SB at all for control?
How does this fare against Humans, Jeskai, and Dredge?