a) If I play heavy on bounce spells, I need space for removals in the sideboard. That means playing Surgicals again - they double as grave hate & Tron/Control utilities. I don't see them as a dissinergy with Chalices, cause we already play few cc1. Against Ux Control I usually shave on Maps anyway, while against Tron you mostly care about having at least one of the two online as soon as possible. Tormod's isn't bad per se, but the lack of cantripping effect prevents me from choosing it. At this point, I would rather play some amount of Ravenous Trap. Relic is, IMHO, the best grave hate we can play, but it comes with a cost (I'm only running them when I have space for Spreading Seas, Nimble Obstructionist or Thought-Knot Seer in the sideboard).
b) Chalice isn't an autowin, obviously. But it becomes quickly a game-winner play when we use other stuff to complement it. What I like in this shell is the fact it's never really useless. Other than the obvious "discard to Thirst" argument, we also have to consider how good are little Karn's tokens with "dead" spells in the midgame. Let's suppose we already have Tron + Ruins, and we're playing some deck against whom Chalice is bad. Cast it on zero, play Map, start making 3/3 and 4/4 in a pair of turns. Isn't it cool? I mostly use Karn for digging in the library, but it's also an efficient closer when you have enough cheap artifacts in play.
c) I played with 4 Oblivion Stone and without any in the 75. I'm very experienced with the card, and I know I'm not running less than one at the moment. But two is probably the best number, in this field where there are lots of tokens and go-wide strategies. I won my fair share of games against Dredge simply by assembling O-Stone + Ruins and Remanding their Conflagrates. HS Affinity is a difficult match-up without any real sweeper, cause Ballista (which I don't play anymore) is truly ineffective against them (while it was an absolute beast against classic Affinity). There are more and more permanents that we have to deal with (lots of planeswalkers, Azcanta, Sphere, the usual Moons...) and they can handle ALL of them at the same time. Mardu Pyromancer is a good match-up if we run enough sweepers, otherwise it's kinda difficult. IMHO is a card that could be either good or bad against most strategies, but let's also remember that we run Thirst and lots of cantrips. IMHO it's needed. I don't know about the second copy, it could be something else (I'm looking forward to try a single Commit) but I also like having 14 artifacts for the times when Chalices are bad and I have to cut them entirely.
Anyway, If I decide to cut the second O-Stone, I would probably play the fourth Chalice maindeck.
d) We adopt the same strategy vs BG. I tend to keep in Maps - just because I already have a good maindeck setting and I don't want to cut too many artifacts - but the strategy is the same. I use Maps as a fodder for Thirst most of the time, instead of actually playing them. Wurmcoil + little Karn + removals is how I win most sb games against Black based. I sideboard out three Chalices, two Rift and one Map/Slaver to bring in 3 Dismember and 3 Spatial. That's it. Sometimes I also bring a Negate in spite of the fourth Remand.
I forgot: sorry for the double post, but I wanted to make clear other statements.
While I'm 100% sure on wanting Chalices maindeck and Karn being super duper, I'm (once again) sceptical on Spatial/Dismember. There are three maindeck spots. Now, I was considering some of the most common decks, and wondering if playing more bounce spells wouldn't be actually better. Let's see a little comparison:
Burn: Mostly, you want either to play Chalice or stall them enough in order to cast Wurmcoil. Secondary plan is to assemblate Tron + Slaver or Ugin counterspells. Spatial is good, but not incredibly good. Dismember is too risky. Repeal is actually insane vs their little creatures, cause it's almost like a Spatial + cantrip if they can't cast all the cards in their hand in the same turn. It's worse against Eidolon, obviously.
UR Phoenix: Here, the argument is very similar to the previous one. But bounce spells are almost always better than removal, expecially when Thing in the Ice is involved.
Eldrazi Tron: Dismember is the best overall, not even close. Spatial does close to nothing.
Humans: They are all useful and needed in different contexts.
HS Affinity: They are all effective, but I value bounce spells more due to the pump effects.
Grixis Shadow: Bounce spells are strictly superior to Spatial Contortion. Dismember is very effective on Delve spells, usually poor (and risky) on Shadow.
GBx: Depends on the list. All of them are good spells.
-------------
Now, seeing this. I didn't bring the cases where they are just poor. But, when that happens, Repeal at least cycles himself on a random Chalice on 0 - which we play in multiples. Aren't bounce spells the most versatile, right now?
I was, then, thinking about running a full bounce + sweepers suite (my first love, I missed you so much!).
Oblivion Stone & Chalice of the Void aren't in conflict with each other. Often if one is good, the other is meh, and can be Thirst fodder. If it isn't the case, the deck is Black or Blue based, and against their permission we are going to fight for either, so even resolving one of them is already fine.
I took a 5-6 months break from MTG and I'm (partially) back. I noticed that all of my posts went deleted (dunno why), hope most of you still remember me and my schizoid lists. I'm not yet in the game, once again, because I managed to find a good balance in my life and Time is a harsh component of it. But, every now and then, I will take a short break and come here to discuss about our favourite game.
What I wanted to say.
If people still remember me, you should be aware of this: I was the first huge proponent of maindecks high on Dismember, Ballista and no Chalices. I do think I was right, and my previous win ratio confirmed it (last time I played, half a year ago, I had a 71% win rate overall). When I was back, though, I noticed the metagame changed quite a bit. There are Phoenixes everywhere, Dredge is a thing again, Burn percentage increased, Grixis Shadow had a comeback. Chalices in this metagame is HUGE. Walking Ballista, which I adore, became a huge "spend here your excess mana" from the "play it and devastate opponent's little creatures" it was in the past. When Affinity was Affinity instead of Hardened Scales and Elves were rampant, I had them in the deck even if they were "bad" against anything else, because Ballistas were winning those two games by themselves. Now, I find them pretty much underwhelming. Not "bad", just "a spot that could be something more impactful". Same goes for Dismember. It's - finally - the time for me to switch to Spatial Contortion. With Burn, Phoenixes & Hardened Scales running rampant, I feel like it's the correct choice. That said, I'm still unsure about this last point. I yet have to make real tests, putting aside one small tournament.
For the first time ever, I'm willing to play baby Karn. Without Talismans, of course (you all should know what I think about them). Guess what? I'm liking the four planeswalkers configuration a lot. From the printing of Assassin's Trophy I felt like we needed to up the count of our walkers. The deck is now working way better than before when it comes to fight opponents that are eager to kill our Tron lands. Having three Wurmcoils plus 2 Karns as "linear, efficient threats" (plus the two big Ugin) makes postboard games way more playable than before. AND, it really helps a lot vs Control, cause lately (before taking a break) I had very good results against the field, but UW and Jeskai made a meatball out of me, after all the goodies WOTC printed.
How my tests went.
Last week I tried to enter a tournament with the old list. Steamrolled by Burn, Phoenix & Miracles, while winning against Humans, for the final 1-3. I took changes, and that's the result:
Round1// Jeskai Delver 2-0
Chalice of the Void really shines here. Geist was a huge problem, having less blockers than before, but Chalice#1 locks them out of half spells (even more) and I was able to chain Remand into Remand into Tron both games before ultimating Ugin.
Round2// Naya Burn 2-1
On the draw. Won game one thanks to Chalice#1 into a pair of Contortion, then I proceed to counter everything until I ultimate Ugin again. Game two he has turn three the same amount of Guides on the field. Game three I'm able to chain a pair of Remands on his Eidolon until I hardcast a Wurmcoil on turn six.
Round3// UR Phoenix 2-0
Chalice#1 won me the first game. Relic + Dismember on Thing won me the second.
Round4// BG Goodstuff 2-0
Karn actually did it in both games. We traded resources for a bit, he tried to keep me out of Tron on the first, but I end up being refuelled constantly by Karn until I hit a Slaver. In the second game he has Trophy into Fulminator into Fulminator into double Field of Ruin activation. I keep killing his stuff with Dismember and Contortion, then I slam Karn into Wurmcoil into another Wurmcoil and laugh.
----
How's the deck positioned?
Can't say for sure. I tested a little bit in the last two weeks, against all the forms of Tron (Gx, Eldrazi), UR Storm, Humans, Hardened Scales, Phoenix, Burn (Mardu, Boros, Naya). It still seems to have plenty of games against those strategies (with Hardened Scales being, by far, the worse between them). Had a 45-55 ratio against G-Tron, 40-60 against HS Affinity, 55+/% against the others.
I'm thinking about fourth Chalice in the main, and I'd like to have one Commit too. Crucible in the side seems to be in a good spot, but dunno what to take out for it.
I apologize in case I forgot how to write in English, please bear with it. I hope you all can find this analysis interesting.
First thing first, I'll post the list I'm currently running, so that we can talk about facts.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
2x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
2x Oblivion Stone
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (18)
4x Condescend
4x Remand
2x Cyclonic Rift
4x Repeal
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Now, these are my points:
a) If I play heavy on bounce spells, I need space for removals in the sideboard. That means playing Surgicals again - they double as grave hate & Tron/Control utilities. I don't see them as a dissinergy with Chalices, cause we already play few cc1. Against Ux Control I usually shave on Maps anyway, while against Tron you mostly care about having at least one of the two online as soon as possible. Tormod's isn't bad per se, but the lack of cantripping effect prevents me from choosing it. At this point, I would rather play some amount of Ravenous Trap. Relic is, IMHO, the best grave hate we can play, but it comes with a cost (I'm only running them when I have space for Spreading Seas, Nimble Obstructionist or Thought-Knot Seer in the sideboard).
b) Chalice isn't an autowin, obviously. But it becomes quickly a game-winner play when we use other stuff to complement it. What I like in this shell is the fact it's never really useless. Other than the obvious "discard to Thirst" argument, we also have to consider how good are little Karn's tokens with "dead" spells in the midgame. Let's suppose we already have Tron + Ruins, and we're playing some deck against whom Chalice is bad. Cast it on zero, play Map, start making 3/3 and 4/4 in a pair of turns. Isn't it cool? I mostly use Karn for digging in the library, but it's also an efficient closer when you have enough cheap artifacts in play.
c) I played with 4 Oblivion Stone and without any in the 75. I'm very experienced with the card, and I know I'm not running less than one at the moment. But two is probably the best number, in this field where there are lots of tokens and go-wide strategies. I won my fair share of games against Dredge simply by assembling O-Stone + Ruins and Remanding their Conflagrates. HS Affinity is a difficult match-up without any real sweeper, cause Ballista (which I don't play anymore) is truly ineffective against them (while it was an absolute beast against classic Affinity). There are more and more permanents that we have to deal with (lots of planeswalkers, Azcanta, Sphere, the usual Moons...) and they can handle ALL of them at the same time. Mardu Pyromancer is a good match-up if we run enough sweepers, otherwise it's kinda difficult. IMHO is a card that could be either good or bad against most strategies, but let's also remember that we run Thirst and lots of cantrips. IMHO it's needed. I don't know about the second copy, it could be something else (I'm looking forward to try a single Commit) but I also like having 14 artifacts for the times when Chalices are bad and I have to cut them entirely.
Anyway, If I decide to cut the second O-Stone, I would probably play the fourth Chalice maindeck.
d) We adopt the same strategy vs BG. I tend to keep in Maps - just because I already have a good maindeck setting and I don't want to cut too many artifacts - but the strategy is the same. I use Maps as a fodder for Thirst most of the time, instead of actually playing them. Wurmcoil + little Karn + removals is how I win most sb games against Black based. I sideboard out three Chalices, two Rift and one Map/Slaver to bring in 3 Dismember and 3 Spatial. That's it. Sometimes I also bring a Negate in spite of the fourth Remand.
While I'm 100% sure on wanting Chalices maindeck and Karn being super duper, I'm (once again) sceptical on Spatial/Dismember. There are three maindeck spots. Now, I was considering some of the most common decks, and wondering if playing more bounce spells wouldn't be actually better. Let's see a little comparison:
Burn: Mostly, you want either to play Chalice or stall them enough in order to cast Wurmcoil. Secondary plan is to assemblate Tron + Slaver or Ugin counterspells. Spatial is good, but not incredibly good. Dismember is too risky. Repeal is actually insane vs their little creatures, cause it's almost like a Spatial + cantrip if they can't cast all the cards in their hand in the same turn. It's worse against Eidolon, obviously.
UR Phoenix: Here, the argument is very similar to the previous one. But bounce spells are almost always better than removal, expecially when Thing in the Ice is involved.
Eldrazi Tron: Dismember is the best overall, not even close. Spatial does close to nothing.
Humans: They are all useful and needed in different contexts.
HS Affinity: They are all effective, but I value bounce spells more due to the pump effects.
Grixis Shadow: Bounce spells are strictly superior to Spatial Contortion. Dismember is very effective on Delve spells, usually poor (and risky) on Shadow.
GBx: Depends on the list. All of them are good spells.
-------------
Now, seeing this. I didn't bring the cases where they are just poor. But, when that happens, Repeal at least cycles himself on a random Chalice on 0 - which we play in multiples. Aren't bounce spells the most versatile, right now?
I was, then, thinking about running a full bounce + sweepers suite (my first love, I missed you so much!).
Instead of:
3 Repeal
1 Cyclonic Rift
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Oblivion Stone
2 Cyclonic Rift
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Oblivion Stone
Oblivion Stone & Chalice of the Void aren't in conflict with each other. Often if one is good, the other is meh, and can be Thirst fodder. If it isn't the case, the deck is Black or Blue based, and against their permission we are going to fight for either, so even resolving one of them is already fine.
What do you guys think about this?
I took a 5-6 months break from MTG and I'm (partially) back. I noticed that all of my posts went deleted (dunno why), hope most of you still remember me and my schizoid lists. I'm not yet in the game, once again, because I managed to find a good balance in my life and Time is a harsh component of it. But, every now and then, I will take a short break and come here to discuss about our favourite game.
What I wanted to say.
If people still remember me, you should be aware of this: I was the first huge proponent of maindecks high on Dismember, Ballista and no Chalices. I do think I was right, and my previous win ratio confirmed it (last time I played, half a year ago, I had a 71% win rate overall). When I was back, though, I noticed the metagame changed quite a bit. There are Phoenixes everywhere, Dredge is a thing again, Burn percentage increased, Grixis Shadow had a comeback. Chalices in this metagame is HUGE. Walking Ballista, which I adore, became a huge "spend here your excess mana" from the "play it and devastate opponent's little creatures" it was in the past. When Affinity was Affinity instead of Hardened Scales and Elves were rampant, I had them in the deck even if they were "bad" against anything else, because Ballistas were winning those two games by themselves. Now, I find them pretty much underwhelming. Not "bad", just "a spot that could be something more impactful". Same goes for Dismember. It's - finally - the time for me to switch to Spatial Contortion. With Burn, Phoenixes & Hardened Scales running rampant, I feel like it's the correct choice. That said, I'm still unsure about this last point. I yet have to make real tests, putting aside one small tournament.
What did I try.
1x Academy Ruins
1x Field of Ruin
1x Ghost Quarter
7x Island
2x River of Tears
4x Urza's Mine
4x Urza's Power Plant
4x Urza's Tower
3x Chalice of the Void
4x Expedition Map
2x Mindslaver
1x Oblivion Stone
3x Wurmcoil Engine
Instant (19)
4x Condescend
4x Remand
1x Cyclonic Rift
3x Spatial Contortion
3x Repeal
4x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Karn, Scion of Urza
2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
For the first time ever, I'm willing to play baby Karn. Without Talismans, of course (you all should know what I think about them). Guess what? I'm liking the four planeswalkers configuration a lot. From the printing of Assassin's Trophy I felt like we needed to up the count of our walkers. The deck is now working way better than before when it comes to fight opponents that are eager to kill our Tron lands. Having three Wurmcoils plus 2 Karns as "linear, efficient threats" (plus the two big Ugin) makes postboard games way more playable than before. AND, it really helps a lot vs Control, cause lately (before taking a break) I had very good results against the field, but UW and Jeskai made a meatball out of me, after all the goodies WOTC printed.
How my tests went.
Last week I tried to enter a tournament with the old list. Steamrolled by Burn, Phoenix & Miracles, while winning against Humans, for the final 1-3. I took changes, and that's the result:
Round1// Jeskai Delver 2-0
Chalice of the Void really shines here. Geist was a huge problem, having less blockers than before, but Chalice#1 locks them out of half spells (even more) and I was able to chain Remand into Remand into Tron both games before ultimating Ugin.
Round2// Naya Burn 2-1
On the draw. Won game one thanks to Chalice#1 into a pair of Contortion, then I proceed to counter everything until I ultimate Ugin again. Game two he has turn three the same amount of Guides on the field. Game three I'm able to chain a pair of Remands on his Eidolon until I hardcast a Wurmcoil on turn six.
Round3// UR Phoenix 2-0
Chalice#1 won me the first game. Relic + Dismember on Thing won me the second.
Round4// BG Goodstuff 2-0
Karn actually did it in both games. We traded resources for a bit, he tried to keep me out of Tron on the first, but I end up being refuelled constantly by Karn until I hit a Slaver. In the second game he has Trophy into Fulminator into Fulminator into double Field of Ruin activation. I keep killing his stuff with Dismember and Contortion, then I slam Karn into Wurmcoil into another Wurmcoil and laugh.
----
How's the deck positioned?
Can't say for sure. I tested a little bit in the last two weeks, against all the forms of Tron (Gx, Eldrazi), UR Storm, Humans, Hardened Scales, Phoenix, Burn (Mardu, Boros, Naya). It still seems to have plenty of games against those strategies (with Hardened Scales being, by far, the worse between them). Had a 45-55 ratio against G-Tron, 40-60 against HS Affinity, 55+/% against the others.
I'm thinking about fourth Chalice in the main, and I'd like to have one Commit too. Crucible in the side seems to be in a good spot, but dunno what to take out for it.
I apologize in case I forgot how to write in English, please bear with it. I hope you all can find this analysis interesting.