In light of the recent lack of unbannings for Modern, I'm curious as to how Stoneforge Mystic would change our deck. She has antisynergy with Leonin Arbiter but she just fits in with our small taxers sooooo well. What would DnT look like if SFM were unbanned?
We would probably run it, but it's not a certainty. Today, there are a lot of tools that keep SFM in check, including veryefficientremoval and discard.
The SFM/Batterskull package really punishes aggro, which is a large part of the format. But it does very little against control and it's only situationally useful against combo.
If the event that it were unbanned, I imagine that we immediately jam 4 copies with a Batterskull/Swords package until the metagame adjusts, at which point we have to become smarter about running it or not running it.
It would be a 0.5 Tier deck, making several Top 8s in tournaments. SFM just gets better with every new set, same problem Birthing Pod has. I really want her being unbanned, but that will never happen
This simply isn't true. If anything, SFM is getting worse with every new set. The reasons are twofold:
1) The removal is becoming moreefficient.
2) The equipment isn't powerful anymore.
The assertion that SFM has the same problem as Birthing Pod is ridiculous; every set is somewhat likely to have powerful creatures (the Birthing Pod problem), but not every set is likely to have powerful equipment (the SFM problem). In fact, SFM has been approximately the same power level since New Phyrexia, when Batterskull and Sword of War and Peace were released. Except theremoval in new sets has gotten much more efficient, meaning that SFM is comparatively much weaker than it used to be.
SFM is a good card. I suspect that we would play it if it were unbanned, but it's not going to be the piece that pushes this deck to Tier 1, let alone Tier 0.5.
I agree with a lot of the points you raised. I also think thst Stoneforge isn't the type of csrd that makes the color white better as a whole in modern. Its too splashable. You don't even have to run other white cards to utilize it too its fullest potential. The mana bases in modern are too perfect. Would I run it? Absolutely. But if its strong enough to push us over the top like others claim its strong enough to warrant its inclusion in a wide rsnge of decks. In the end that means it may not strengthen our overall position in the meta and may potentially hurt us. Its a creature based etb that circumvents our mana denial and spell based taxing and provides a protection package against what little removal and flicker we have. We don't have ports and wastelands like in legacy and jitte is the equipment piece that really makes Stoneforge viable there.
Did anyone tested 5 removal spells on the MB? Im trying to test it too (4 PtE + 1 Fatal Push), but I dont know if a single Restoration Angel is better in the place of fatal push. Playing a WB E&T list with 4 TKS.
I run 1 Fatal Push main. I like it. There is lots of targets for it right now. It can be suspect againts Death's Shadow due to the delver beaters though. Their discard package makes the extra removal helpful.
Round 1 vs UR storm
This was pretty much the storm we know except it has added Baral, chief of compliance and it had gifts ungiven. He ran me over G1 because I had no hate pieces. G2 and G3 saw me landing thalia, reflector mageing stuff back to his hand and ripping path to exile. I also saw a rip G2.
2-1
Round 2 vs zoo/8 whack
So this was pretty much regular naya zoo except he added hidden herbalist and to spice it up, myr superion. I actually really liked his list.
G1 was close. I almost stabilized with aethersphere harvester off trophy mage, but he had several atarka's command to stop me from gaining life. Harvester is REALLY good against aggro decks like this. It blocks wonderfully with its 5 toughness and it gains you back life. I fetched it up in all 3 games with my t mage and went to town. It took over G2 and G3.
2-1
Round 3 vs UR storm again
Pretty much the same as the other deck except I didn't see gifts, but I did see thing in the ice. I won G1 and G3 and I would have won G2, but I got blood mooned out. Turns out sword of fire and ice has pro deck here and ends games really fast.
2-1
Round 4 vs Jund
I was on the draw game one, but started doing my tempo stuff and just barely lost to my opponent stabilizing on goyfs despite my sworded up wisp in the air.
Game 2 saw my getting a god hand of vial into thalia into rip and he only ever had 3 lands and simply couldn't recover.
G3 was the most interesting of all the games. It was the classic jund grind fest. I managed to land a trophy mage and tutor up sword of light and shadow. He killed trophy mage with lili and passed. I didn't play anything and when it went back to him, he played a land (his draw and only card in hand) and then ticked up lili. I then flashed in venser, shaper savant and had lili kill herself. I proceded to draw a land and then play and cast sword and start getting back dudes from the yard to end him. <3 Venser.
2-1
Round 5 vs Dredge
It's just how dredge was before except with golgari grave-troll being replaced by golgari thug.
G1 had him on the play, but a pretty slow mulligan. He managed to get there with dredge nonsense, but the game was still very close thanks to sword of light and shadow which helped me hit him hard, block well, and return dudes he got rid of.
G2 saw me with a nut start, finding rest in peace, spellskite, ghostly prison, and sword of light and shadow and shadow.
G3 had a little worse opener, but still had rest in peace on T2 which got protected by skite who doubled on defense until I cast my trophy mage and sworded it up, effectively ending him.
2-1
Wooh 5-0!
Takeaway: I really hope that this storm deck stick because it's one of our best MUs. Also t mage really pulled its weight. Having a toolbox felt very powerful. The swords often just ended games. The mage gave much wanted card advantage and then the swords generated more.
I was a little unimpressed with phyrexian revoker and often found myself wishing I had arbiter instead. The reason I went revoker instead was to avoid the trophy mage arbiter nonbo. It's possible I should run arbiter anyway or that revoker just didn't see a lot of games where it was relevant here. It was decent against jund, but was cut pretty much in every other game. I'll think about what that slot should be, but I'd love any suggestions/thoughts for that slot because I do believe in having a disruptive 2 drop in the deck.
I never brought in damping matrix add I'm curious to see if it will ever be relevant. Also, I didn't have my crucible of worlds at the time, but I will try that as well.
Also, I've been very impressed with Venser generally.
Note: This was my first serious run through with the deck and I'm quite pleased and surprised that the decks first league got me a 5-0 as I thought this would be a fairly rough version of the deck.
Thanks Guys!
~Spider
Congrats on the 5-0! Overall its a spicy list but man your mana base is going to give me nightmares. How did it handle for you? Did you like it, or where there times when you struggled with mana cost? Dampening Matrix seems just alright. I run Linvala occasionally and like the effect, but even then I dont know if the effect is worth it enough, and thats with the flying 3/4 body attached. It always feels like a great effect to remember about when considering flex slots for a particular meta though.
First time poster. I've played Standard for a couple of years, and have just completed my first modern deck - B/W Eldrazi and Taxes. Whilst researching the deck and watching people play it online, I formed some questions (although bear in mind I haven't played modern yet).
The deck seems clunky and too top heavy - in particular, Eldrazi Displacer never seems to be utilised. Is this true?
Continuing from the last point... Smuggler's Copter would lower the curve, smooth out drawers and also make the deck more resistant to board wipes. Why isn't it played more?
Bearer of Silence seems like a nice fit in the deck. It's a flier for 2 mana that can also disrupt the opponent's board. Why isn't it used?
Cheers
1, From a convert mana cost composition standpoint this deck is fairly on par with other DnT decks in modern. Access to Eldrazi Temple can make it slightly faster. Displacer can be good. Sometimes its just a 3/3 body that clogs up the board and the match doesnt last long enough to utilize his flicker effect. Other times its a straight up monster that dominates the board. Four can feel like a lot if you run a four or five round event and only play against decks where its mediocre.
2. Some have tried Smuggler Copter. I personally have not. There isn't the room for it in EnT in my personal opinion. You already have 12 two drops locked in between Thalia, Arbiter and Sculler. You can run a few more, but there are probably better variants for it.
3. Sculler is still fine if an opponent has multiple removal spells. Forcing them to remove it to get a card back changes their tempo and forces them to play off schedule. TKS drawback is still card parity, with you replacing their best card in hand with a random one at a latter interval. They do become lackluster the latter they are drawn, especially in topdeck mode. The ability to reset the card locked away during the draw step helps mitagate this a bit. Thoughtseize isn't usually ran because of several issues, life loss and difficulty with consistant early black sources. We also run Aether Vial, which is another dead draw latter in the game. Having both would dilute our decks power. Brain Maggot doesnt offer the same tricks as Sculler and we don't need more than eight card exile effects.
4. It can't block, it has a cast trigger so it doesn't work with Vial and Flickering and the body is not all that great. We are not aggressive enough of a deck to run a 2/1 flier that can't play defense.
He does at least play DnT though. He used a white build for MOCS qualifer. Runs four Horizon Canopies, four Blade Splicers, four Thraben Inspectors and four Restoration Angels for the top end. He also play DnT at Louisville for Legacy.
Craig Wescoe plays white weenie variants in Standard, Modern, and Legacy. He plays them when they're vogue and also when they're irrelevant. Wescoe even took a midrange flicker deck to GP Detroit, despite it being the middle of Eldrazi winter.
I don't care.
He's only writing about WR D&T to have an article to publish, so that TCG Player can sell cards. Those of us who have tried to build WR D&T know that the deck has potential, but it's typically just a worse version of some other D&T splash. I'm not saying it's unplayable. I'm saying that Wescoe is in marketing, not news reporting. I'll believe in his WR build when he takes it to a Modern GP and reaches top 8.
And while I understand your point I think its a positive thing for the deck to have eyeballs on it amd it's nice that one of the people helping to draw eyeballs to it is a higher profile player. The more people that stumble onto any variant of the deck, the better, especially with the amount of video content a lot of you guys are producing.
I'm just tired of Wescoe writing articles simply because he had a deadline coming up. I understand that's a part of his job, but it's annoying to see TCG Player marketing materials masquerading as deckbuilding stategy. Wescoe would never take WR D&T to a relevant tournament, but it doesn't matter because TCG Player has cards to sell.
He does at least play DnT though. He used a white build for MOCS qualifer. Runs four Horizon Canopies, four Blade Splicers, four Thraben Inspectors and four Restoration Angels for the top end. He also play DnT at Louisville for Legacy.
I'm personally starting with two Fatal Pushes in EnT until I get a better feel for how the meta is going to shape up. I've got a big tournament at the end of the month so I want to stick with EnT because its what I know best.
I have to admit though I have had the strangest urge to go back to mono white for a bit. Not for power reasons, more for nostalgia sake.
Maybe I missed it when skimming the last two pages, but how has fatal push not sparked more discussion? How does it affect our deck(s)?
Short answer: it's not good for our deck, but we're not sure how bad it is for our deck yet.
Long answer: The opinions seem to range from "the sky is falling" to "it shouldn't affect our deck very much". Myself, Jendo, Spider, and Catmix managed to talk about Fatal Push for about a half hour on stream last night (it came up again during our discussion of Vengeful Rebel), and I don't think we quite reached a consensus.
On "the sky is falling" side, Fatal Push is an aggressively-costed removal spell that hits essentially all of our deck. Between Fatal Push and Yahenni's Expertise, Grixis and Sultai control strategies are about to get stronger, which is probably bad news for us. Fatal Push is almost a black Lightning Bolt, and it's not like we want to play against more of those.
On the "it shouldn't affect our deck very much" side, the removal in Modern is already significantly more efficient than most of Modern's creatures, so another pushed removal spell probably won't change the deck composition of many archetypes. Some decks may switch to Fatal Push instead of Terminate, but Terminate hits relevant things that Fatal Push can't. If anything, I think Fatal Push is a reason to potentially run Sultai control instead of Grixis control, but that change probably doesn't necessarily affect D&T, because all of our creatures still die to removal, and we still have to play around that removal the same way that we always have.
How many is correct to run in EnT, or Orzhov taxes in general?
Fatal Push is a powerful card, but I think most of our removal options should probably have legs.
Catmix is already running Arbiter-less builds, and I think it's an open question if Fatal Push is a better removal option than Path if we're not running search hate. However, most of us (including myself) are still running search hate, so Path might just be the better removal spell.
I don't know if we want to run additional removal spells beyond the first four copies of Path, but it has been done in the past with 1-2 copies of Dismember. For WB D&T, I think that Fatal Push is probably better than Dismember, but I don't think most players will be replacing their Paths.
I'm going to say "yes", but I may be wrong. It's an instant-speed way to interact with aggressive creatures on T1, which is something that our deck could really use. Most of the creatures that we want to get rid of either have a CMC 2 or less (Zoo, Affinity, Burn, parts of Jund), or a CMC of more than 4 (Delve, Reanimator, Scapeshift). Fatal Push is a good answer to the former category, but you're still going to want Path for the latter category.
Or are more three drops acceptable as the format likely slows down and gets around non-revolted pushes?
I actually think that 3 drops will become less acceptable as the format becomes slower, because it becomes a larger tempo swing when your opponent plays Fatal Push. I think Fatal Push is an unfortunate new Bolt-test, where not only does the 4 toughness number matter (to survive Lightning Bolt), but the 5 CMC number suddenly matters (to survive Fatal Push). Good control pilots are going to adjust when they crack their fetchlands to get maximum value out of Fatal Push, which means that many 4-CMC creatures (like Restoration Angel) are suddenly significantly worse than they were two weeks ago.
I actually think it has a lot of potential in W/b EnT and the focus on whether or not it will be easy to turn on revolt in our deck is over blown because it functions so well without it. It is cheap, effective removal that will help us stablize the board against fast, linear aggro. My current plan is to add 2 mainboard and cut one strangler, going from 3 to 2 in my build. This might just be a product of my own personal experiences playing in a meta with lots of aggro, but I look forward to its inclusion.
There was some discussion of the card 3 or 4 pages back, but I'll say the same thing here that I said earlier. The card helps us more than it hurts us because it gives us a new viable removal option, while it will probably replace other removal spells in other decks. The worse part is its low cost makes its it easier to cast with Thalia's tax then terminate or abrupt decay. But again most decks won't simply jam in four new removal spells. Instead they will probably replace some of the 8-10 they do run with some number of pushes.
I could be wrong. This card could end up being a new Tragic Slip which was once herald as the second coming of PtE, but I like having an option that removes dorks, manlands and two mana utility creatures without giving them a land drop.
This is it boys. This is finally the reason to run W/B DnT over EnT. I like this better than Fatally Pushed and I love that card. Dies Wizards not realize Christmas was two weeks ago?
Looks good on the first glance.
In a deck with TKS, Path and Wisp, I think Strangler is easier to use than this. As stated before, I think Revolt is a mechanic hard to pull off in a deck that doesn't want to run fetches (I know we CAN, but you better crack them as early as possible to not get Arbiter-screwed, so there goes your Revolt enabler).
Remember that Strangler processes anything that has been put into exile anytime before you play it. Revolt mechanics demand that you pull it of on the same turn.
We can enable Revolt by using TE/GQ and by flickering things. TE and GQ strangles your mana so you need a Vial to play those Revolt creatures. Also, you usually want to use GQ as soon as you can cut them off a color or the Xth mana they need. That means you have less ways to go Revolt later in the game, therefore Revolt creatures become vanilla.
Enabling Revolt by flickering also needs a lot of mana if you don't have a Vial out. Still, there's the same late game problem. The only way to flicker repeatedly throughout the game without giving up board presence is Eldrazi Displacer, which suggests you play Eldrazi Temples, which suggests you play TKS, which... BW E&T.
Can you explain why you think this is THE card and how you would consistently be able to Revolt?
In my experience the first Strangler usually has processing food. Chaining stranglers or flickering the same strangler can be difficult to fuel. Tidehollows and TKS can help, but I find personally against aggro decks that TKS stops stripping cards and starts being a 4/4 body that allows your opponent to draw when removed after the first one. Strangler is enabled by PtE, Tidehollow, Flickerwisp and TKS in stock builds, Relic in non stock. Warrior plays well with Flickerwisp, Displacer, Ghost Quarter in stock, Selfless Spirit and Tectonic Edge in non stock. It also triggers off opponents removal. Adding four fetches puts each card at 16 enablers in stock versions. Aetherborn Warrior has the advantage of being easier to flicker for value. Flickerwisp followed by Strangler in the same turn can be land destruction or double removal, but is mana intensive. Aetherborn Warrior followed by Flickerwisp in any subsequent turn is removal. This card allows the same effect in a slightly different package without tying us down to Eldrazi, which can be clunky in an aggro meta.
This is it boys. This is finally the reason to run W/B DnT over EnT. I like this better than Fatally Pushed and I love that card. Dies Wizards not realize Christmas was two weeks ago?
Also, that means we will probably see more Delve creatures running around: Tasigur, the Golden Fang and Gurmag Angler are immune to it and can come early.
push is probably not that great in our deck, since we don't run fetchlands. that is really what is gonna make this card a bomb in modern. def see more control decks with fetches
I don't know. So many prime targets at 2 cmc or less make this maindeckable in a lot of matches. Instant speed and no restrictions solve the inherient issue with running sunlance. This stops early aggro rushes with no loss of life. It kills dorks in a profitable way and will strengthen our match ups against Death Shadow, Affinity, Burn, Infect, Jund, Azban and Elves. Yes we are susceptible to it to, but the removal spells it replaces would have killed our creatures anyway. But we aren't replacing removal spells. We are adding to it make our deck stronger. This thing kills manlands! It covers the early turns when we don't have an Arbiter and don't want to waste a PtE and give them a land drop for their two drop. Revolts a nice cherry on top but that extra paragraph of text isn't what has me excited.
Fatal Push is really good. Smother just barely doesn't make the cut as is. Its main deckable, kills a who's who of modern all stars and is infinitely better at hitting dorks than Path to Exile. Tragic Slip got a lot of intial hype that turned out to be unearned, but Revolt seems to be incredibly more easy to turn on than Morbid. I'm already working on adding it to my W/b EnT deck and I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up being a 2/2 mb/sb split in the right meta.
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
It certainly is match dependent. Your absolutely right; hierarch can't help your mana if it's just going to eat a bolt. That's interesting though, because I tend to not cut all my vials against midrange as I feel that being able to push dudes that can't be countered onto the board and at flash enables me to get in hits I shouldn't otherwise be able to get in. Furthermore, it allows tricks like ours wisps saving guys from removal in a MU that's likely to be highly value centric.
To be perfectly honest, cutting only 1 of 1 or the other probably doesn't change the deck that much to matter significantly. I could try it in reverse, but I'm not sure I'll be able to really notice the difference until I've played a lot of games that way.
You make a good point about catching up on mana, but I often feel that the T2 plays hierarch opens up are just much less good when me opponent already has 2 mana and that's one of the main reasons I think this way.
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Part of our disagreement might come from the fact that EnT has pretty much been my variant since OGW. Like you said a one cut of either or would take a long time to figure out percentage wise which is the correct choice for your build. For me vial is great, but I have things like Displacer, Tidehollow Sculler, Selfless Spirit and TKS to handle removal spells and I don't need to rely as heavily on vial for Flickerwisp shennigans when I can replacate them with Displacer. I don't believe you are wrong. I was more just asking to understand what thought process you were using and how you evaluated certain lines of play which you certainly answered and then some. I can see why you favor your particular cuts.
As far as vial and midrange goes again it might come down to what lines of play we value more and what options we have available to use. I love vial and what it can potentially do, but against midrange decks without counter spells I tend to favor bringing in more heavy hitters, removal and CA generators.
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
Cavern shouldn't make too much of a difference either way as it as a 1 of isn't that statistically relevant.
The thought process there is that my hierarch into X turn 3 are often very aggressive (i.e. T2 arbiter + gq or big thalia) and that vial puts me more on a defensive reactionary plan. By going second, I feel that at least to begin with, my opponent is more in the drivers seat and I must react. Hierarch is still of course good and I want T1 consistency, but the particular lines I mentioned are less alluring when they are already up on mana.
Gemstone of course is there to try and reverse this a bit, but as I said, it's only a 1 of.
Does that not make sense to you? Would you cut it in the reverse way?
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
@spiderspace: congrats on your finish. It's really good that some of us are putting good results with the deck...
about the gw coco list i can understand how powerful it is to make powerful turn 2 plays like thaliaHC and leonin + GQ, but i've always been afraid that 4 vials + 4 hierarch would make the deck not good in topdeck mode vs grindy matchups, it is somehow threat lighter (both of them are kind of blanks lategame). i can also see that courser and coco try to make up with that.
i am a little afraid that GWx decks,brews like that mardu you faced, and grixis can all be unfavored (and strictly worse than the ones you have with other lists like BW eldrazi). What do you think about it?
do you side out vials/cocos in those matchups (since you're bringing even less creatures postboard)?
Do you think more selfless spirits could have been better (maybe that lonely displacer is not the best here)?
How well did gavony and eternal Witness perform in general (since i didn't see any of it in the report)?
Do you always side out witness when you bring in RIP?
And lastly have you ever had any problems casting GG spells?
Sorry for bothering with all those questions
Thank you!
Originally I was going to space these question by question, but I feel that a lot of what you asked about flows into each other. So sorry for the wall of text.
While having 8 one drops certainly makes our topdeck worse, having that extra level of consistency is more than worth it. Additionally, hierarch can still swing on an empty board and will pump other guys swinging. However, the concern is still a valid one. (This somewhat answers your next question as well:) I tend to take out one vial or one hierarch if depending on if I'm on the play or the draw (if I'm on the play, it's vial. If on the draw, it's hierarch). Additionally, if my 2 burrenton-forge tenders come in, I'll side out 1 vial and 1 hierarch so that I'm not flooded with 1 drops. courser of kruphix, horizon canopy, and collected company all do work to help make sure we don't topdeck poorly. In fact, if you look some pages back you'll see that I was saying that GBx felt the best with this version over any other version of D&T I've played. I somewhat assume you meant GBx when you said GWx. However, if you DO mean GWx, I can't think of a common theme between those kinds of decks, but the two that come to mind are bant eldrazi and Junk both of which are quite winnable. Junk could be hard G1 because of lingering souls, but is a better MU than jund in my opinion because rest in peace hits them even harder. The Drazi MU is benefited hugely by spellskite, thalia, heretic cathar, and fliers. For all of the above decks, I believe that this deck has a BETTER MU than BW E&T would because I'm fast enough to fight on my terms and I have an arguably better lategame with better topdecks due to canopy and courser, and being able to provide huge value off of coco. For Grixis and Mardu style "control" decks (the grixis I faced was delver so I'm hesitant to call it control. The mardu was very midrangy and reminds me of Jund and so also might not be considered a true control deck.), I think my GW and E&T probably have similar MUs. While E&T has more hand disruption, my taxers come down faster and hit harder with great midgame resiliency. TKS is great, but they do get cards back when they kill it. I'd just much rather topdeck my scavenging ooze in one of those games than a tidehollow sculler or really any other 2 cmc card we run in the mid to late game. That and both decks just eat bolt all day long. Both decks run 4 creatures that don't get killed by bolt so I feel like it's fairly similar. When against a true grixis control deck, I feel like wasteland strangler being able to eat ancestral vision is pretty sweet, but that once you're behind, that's kind of it. We get to vial stuff EOT and try our flicker shenangins, but coco takes that to the next level.
Yes, I absolutely do take out collected company at times. The number I have in my head as the amount of creatures that it needs to be able to hit is 22. If you're below that, than there's a good chance you shouldn't be running it. The dredge MU comes to mind where I'm siding in somewhere around 7 non creature spells. Additionally, we mostly don't want too many 4 drops so if you are bring in gideon, ally of zendikar, it may be worthwhile to cut a resto or coco (however it's good to load up on the top end when you're against grindy decks which is admittedly where Gideon comes in).
My main argument against my singleton displacer is that it makes my manabase slightly more painful in the form of brushland and while it can matter, I feel that my burn MU is strong enough that displacer's benefit of being able to take over the game is absolutely worth a slightly more painful manabase when I have cards to gain life and improve my mana in the form of hierarch and courser (also vial and scooze). Displacer is what gives WB E&T its midgame to lategame power. We've all seen the power of landing one with a wisp. Imagine doing that with a eternal witness. Displacer and witness are singletons that both serve a unique and very powerful function. I'm very content with them as one ofs though since they both require a kind of support (witness needs cards in the yard and displacer is mana hungry), yet they both are very powerful if they have that support.
I think that selfless spirit is a great card, but I didn't find myself wanting its effect that much more. That and I can't imagine cutting something for another. Is it really better than a displacer, scooze, or skite? I doubt it. Furthermore, one of the main types of board wipes we run into are R ones (anger of the gods) where I can bring in burrenton forge-tender. While I admittedly do have a worse WU control MU because of supreme verdict, I can still win those games as coco just restocks our board if my taxers failed in slowing them down sufficiently. That and it doesn't represent a large enough part of the meta to make me want to tune to it. I just don't get wrath of goded that much.
Ewit and gavony township are both excellent cards that in a sense, serve similar purposes in that they give me a better mid to late game. Gavony is able to turn any of our creatures into a bigger badder threat. It's also able to turn an attack into an alpha strike making me often happy to draw it. Witness is just very versatile. Obviously getting back coco is probably the dirtiest thing it can do, but it can get you back LD, a destroyed utility, an important creature the opponent managed to kill, or even an extra path for that nasty infector or big fatty you're facing down.
I do not always side witness out when I side rip in. I will side witness out say against dredge, but there's a real thought for keeping it against GBx where your opponent is likely to inquisition of kozilek it. It really depends.
GG cards can theoretically be hard to cast sometimes, but I really haven't had a courser stuck in my hand that often. Witness is card that is often sandbagged anyway so is even less relevant in that way. I have 12 G sources with 8 one drops that mana fix. 5 of my colorless sources can be used to get G if I have to (i.e ghost quarter myself to get that basic. I also think it's probably not statistically that relevant, but gemstone caverns does sometimes happen and so I thought was worth mentioning).
Something to note on my list; it might be a sort of Corey Burkhart kind of situation where my list is very much just that; it could be hard to pilot and there are lots of lines of play that might not be intuitive if you just netdecked my list and sleeved up for your next tourney. And I say that knowing the forum is full of D&T players. The next most capable person with it would probably be benno since he has spent a good amount of time with GW coco, but our lists are pretty different (his list looks like an older variant of it I have). I'm sure catmix and jeina could make it work, but not before tweaking it to fit their respective playstyles a bit.
I don't say that to discourage any of you from trying it or to be elitist about it, but rather to be aware that you might not 5-0 first with it the first time you try it. You need some practice time with it.
Please don't apologize for the questions! I'm happy to answer them!
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?
I agree with a lot of the points you raised. I also think thst Stoneforge isn't the type of csrd that makes the color white better as a whole in modern. Its too splashable. You don't even have to run other white cards to utilize it too its fullest potential. The mana bases in modern are too perfect. Would I run it? Absolutely. But if its strong enough to push us over the top like others claim its strong enough to warrant its inclusion in a wide rsnge of decks. In the end that means it may not strengthen our overall position in the meta and may potentially hurt us. Its a creature based etb that circumvents our mana denial and spell based taxing and provides a protection package against what little removal and flicker we have. We don't have ports and wastelands like in legacy and jitte is the equipment piece that really makes Stoneforge viable there.
I run 1 Fatal Push main. I like it. There is lots of targets for it right now. It can be suspect againts Death's Shadow due to the delver beaters though. Their discard package makes the extra removal helpful.
Congrats on the 5-0! Overall its a spicy list but man your mana base is going to give me nightmares. How did it handle for you? Did you like it, or where there times when you struggled with mana cost? Dampening Matrix seems just alright. I run Linvala occasionally and like the effect, but even then I dont know if the effect is worth it enough, and thats with the flying 3/4 body attached. It always feels like a great effect to remember about when considering flex slots for a particular meta though.
1, From a convert mana cost composition standpoint this deck is fairly on par with other DnT decks in modern. Access to Eldrazi Temple can make it slightly faster. Displacer can be good. Sometimes its just a 3/3 body that clogs up the board and the match doesnt last long enough to utilize his flicker effect. Other times its a straight up monster that dominates the board. Four can feel like a lot if you run a four or five round event and only play against decks where its mediocre.
2. Some have tried Smuggler Copter. I personally have not. There isn't the room for it in EnT in my personal opinion. You already have 12 two drops locked in between Thalia, Arbiter and Sculler. You can run a few more, but there are probably better variants for it.
3. Sculler is still fine if an opponent has multiple removal spells. Forcing them to remove it to get a card back changes their tempo and forces them to play off schedule. TKS drawback is still card parity, with you replacing their best card in hand with a random one at a latter interval. They do become lackluster the latter they are drawn, especially in topdeck mode. The ability to reset the card locked away during the draw step helps mitagate this a bit. Thoughtseize isn't usually ran because of several issues, life loss and difficulty with consistant early black sources. We also run Aether Vial, which is another dead draw latter in the game. Having both would dilute our decks power. Brain Maggot doesnt offer the same tricks as Sculler and we don't need more than eight card exile effects.
4. It can't block, it has a cast trigger so it doesn't work with Vial and Flickering and the body is not all that great. We are not aggressive enough of a deck to run a 2/1 flier that can't play defense.
And while I understand your point I think its a positive thing for the deck to have eyeballs on it amd it's nice that one of the people helping to draw eyeballs to it is a higher profile player. The more people that stumble onto any variant of the deck, the better, especially with the amount of video content a lot of you guys are producing.
He does at least play DnT though. He used a white build for MOCS qualifer. Runs four Horizon Canopies, four Blade Splicers, four Thraben Inspectors and four Restoration Angels for the top end. He also play DnT at Louisville for Legacy.
I have to admit though I have had the strangest urge to go back to mono white for a bit. Not for power reasons, more for nostalgia sake.
I actually think it has a lot of potential in W/b EnT and the focus on whether or not it will be easy to turn on revolt in our deck is over blown because it functions so well without it. It is cheap, effective removal that will help us stablize the board against fast, linear aggro. My current plan is to add 2 mainboard and cut one strangler, going from 3 to 2 in my build. This might just be a product of my own personal experiences playing in a meta with lots of aggro, but I look forward to its inclusion.
There was some discussion of the card 3 or 4 pages back, but I'll say the same thing here that I said earlier. The card helps us more than it hurts us because it gives us a new viable removal option, while it will probably replace other removal spells in other decks. The worse part is its low cost makes its it easier to cast with Thalia's tax then terminate or abrupt decay. But again most decks won't simply jam in four new removal spells. Instead they will probably replace some of the 8-10 they do run with some number of pushes.
I could be wrong. This card could end up being a new Tragic Slip which was once herald as the second coming of PtE, but I like having an option that removes dorks, manlands and two mana utility creatures without giving them a land drop.
In my experience the first Strangler usually has processing food. Chaining stranglers or flickering the same strangler can be difficult to fuel. Tidehollows and TKS can help, but I find personally against aggro decks that TKS stops stripping cards and starts being a 4/4 body that allows your opponent to draw when removed after the first one. Strangler is enabled by PtE, Tidehollow, Flickerwisp and TKS in stock builds, Relic in non stock. Warrior plays well with Flickerwisp, Displacer, Ghost Quarter in stock, Selfless Spirit and Tectonic Edge in non stock. It also triggers off opponents removal. Adding four fetches puts each card at 16 enablers in stock versions. Aetherborn Warrior has the advantage of being easier to flicker for value. Flickerwisp followed by Strangler in the same turn can be land destruction or double removal, but is mana intensive. Aetherborn Warrior followed by Flickerwisp in any subsequent turn is removal. This card allows the same effect in a slightly different package without tying us down to Eldrazi, which can be clunky in an aggro meta.
Revolt-Target creature gets -3/-3 eot
3/2
This is it boys. This is finally the reason to run W/B DnT over EnT. I like this better than Fatally Pushed and I love that card. Dies Wizards not realize Christmas was two weeks ago?
I don't know. So many prime targets at 2 cmc or less make this maindeckable in a lot of matches. Instant speed and no restrictions solve the inherient issue with running sunlance. This stops early aggro rushes with no loss of life. It kills dorks in a profitable way and will strengthen our match ups against Death Shadow, Affinity, Burn, Infect, Jund, Azban and Elves. Yes we are susceptible to it to, but the removal spells it replaces would have killed our creatures anyway. But we aren't replacing removal spells. We are adding to it make our deck stronger. This thing kills manlands! It covers the early turns when we don't have an Arbiter and don't want to waste a PtE and give them a land drop for their two drop. Revolts a nice cherry on top but that extra paragraph of text isn't what has me excited.
Part of our disagreement might come from the fact that EnT has pretty much been my variant since OGW. Like you said a one cut of either or would take a long time to figure out percentage wise which is the correct choice for your build. For me vial is great, but I have things like Displacer, Tidehollow Sculler, Selfless Spirit and TKS to handle removal spells and I don't need to rely as heavily on vial for Flickerwisp shennigans when I can replacate them with Displacer. I don't believe you are wrong. I was more just asking to understand what thought process you were using and how you evaluated certain lines of play which you certainly answered and then some. I can see why you favor your particular cuts.
As far as vial and midrange goes again it might come down to what lines of play we value more and what options we have available to use. I love vial and what it can potentially do, but against midrange decks without counter spells I tend to favor bringing in more heavy hitters, removal and CA generators.
It'd be match up dependent for me. W/G is a variant I have played a little so your experience would make you more qualified to speak on the matter than me, but my philosophy would be that the tempo boost of a dork on the draw would allow me to develop faster than my opponent by putting me a turn up on mana production almost reversing the draw/play order while still drawing an extra card. On the play Vial matches their mana production on their previous turn allowing me to develop my board on pace with theirs while being proactive or reactive with my mana as I see fit. Granted certain decks make either vial or noble better so the cut is easier. For example I would cut most, if not all my vials against midrange, depending on if I had worthwhile stuff to justify the cut, because it is a deader draw than Noble. If I suspected pingers, wipes or -1/-1 effects obviously the nobles would go, but I imagine we're in agreement there. I also feel that Vial is sometimes way to slow on the draw and will occasionally cut one to reduce my chances of a dead draw later, especially when boarding in cards like RIP which don't provide immediate advantage or are dead draws in multiples.
Why do you cut vial on the play and heirarch on the draw? Wouldn't having a higher chance to hit hierarch on the draw be better for making up the mana differential between being on the play and on the draw by putting you ahead of your opponent potential production wise? Especially with Gemstone Cavern? Or os Cavern the reason you feeling comfortable cutting a hierarch?