I mean, there is no doubt that the goldfish on a t1 assistant, t2 win gets better. You are normally looking for/avoiding specific cards. Scrying away lands/extra dudes before each draw should have a pretty big impact on the probability of drawing your cheeri0s and eventually retract/etc.
Now, will it actually be better than whatever it is replacing due to removal is a different question. I do know there was at least one person on here playing contraband kingpin due to the scry.
Edit: I mean, assuming (worst case) you are playing 20 cheeri0s, have 1 and a dude in hand, then you are 19/52 (36.5%) to continue chaining on the first draw that turn, compared to 60.2%; an addition of (33/52)(19/51) 23.6%.
Assuming you have a retract or opal in your opener (or more cheeri0s so you can draw into either of them and still continue chaining), that probability should only get better.
That being said, this is looking at the conditional probability of having a t2 worthy opener, so the effect on overall probability of a t2 kill may not be significant
That being said, an opener with assistant and multiple cheeri0s can scry you into a dude or land to cast the one you have in hand.
The card seems very good for the deck. The question is what to cut.
Visions is not ideal for the goldfish, but interaction might be necessary for MD problem cards. The latest iteration a few posts back ran a disgustingly low number of lands, so maybe shaving there, but I'm pretty scared to go down to 14 lands in my build.
Thoughtcast seems particularly good if you have an assistant out. You can scry with the cheeri0s and then draw into what you need for 1 mana. It's kind of a build your own Visions that has more synergy with the combo.
I have always liked Echoing Truth since the early Sram days when I seriously began playing the deck since it can bounce problem cards, but also bounce some of your own cheeri0s in a pinch.
Revival is obviously a must for anyone who's played the deck.
1-2 Dredge
1-2 Burn
2-1 Restore Balance (pretty sweet deck actually, updated with md bloodmoon, sweltering suns, nahiri, ajani)
2-0 Jeskai Control
2-0 Hollow One
I gotta say, the courier/traverse/looting/salvage/lotleth/caryatid core is a dream. I think that core is really what gives the deck its power and consistency. It really feels like the creatures you end up pitching can be endlessly mixed and matched depending on what you want to accomplish and what your metagame consists of.
Flying and trample give you evasion. Double-strike and haste basically end games quickly. Lifelink and Vigilance allow you to race. Hexproof and Indestructible give you resiliency.
Whatever direction you take, as I said earlier, the core is there, so I encourage people to tailor the creature pitches to their metagame and test for more info.
Samut really takes the deck in that more aggressive, kill-you direction that I have definitely missed in some games that I just wanted to close it out. I'm going to go -1 zetalpa, +1 samut keeping an eye on the tough trim that I will likely want for the second Samut. It may seem easy to just cut down to 18 lands, but I can't recommend it. The mana has really been a dream. Thrun is high on the list to shave down to 2.
As for the board, I'm going to try -2 lightning axe +2 pyroclasm and rely on the lotleth troll regeneration against goyf/gurmag. I miss the sweeper, what can I say.
General Thoughts:
Thrun
Thrun single-handedly won me g1 against jeskai. Hexproof is so nice against path and random things like searing blaze and demonic dread.
Hazoret
Hazoret is just so good in this deck. It's almost always turned on, g1 or otherwise. Haste is sooo good in combination with the other abilities.
GY Hate
of course when I cut gy hate I get dredge. That being said, I still think the better answer would be anger of the gods, rather than gy hate.
Obviously some decks will still want it, but I think most just want to do their thing.
Thoughtseize
So thoughtseize is not just needed against counters, but they are so nice against tron and other high cmc decks. I thought I would want less with thrun, but that has not been the case
Lightning Axe/Pyroclasm
I haven't brought it in a lot, and while it's great when I do, I feel like I've wanted pyroclasm more. It's even nice against burn, which btw, I think is not that bad of a matchup. You can just win games with a quick lifelinker.
Grisly Salvage
I've actually been keeping in a couple more now. Not only is it great to reload after killing hate, it's also an instant, which is super nice for traverse if you aren't loading up on SB instants
So long story short I played a few leagues with the Daily list on SCG after loving it and after tweaking it to what I was learning about it, I 5-0'd a Friendly with the following list. List below followed by changes I'm going to make going forward and then spoilered faq/thoughts.
Moving forward I will be running -2 Zetalpa, +1 Hazoret, +1 Reaver and swapping -3 Tyrant for +3 Thrun, the Last Troll. I am confident in these switches (and the deck in general, tbh), but I'll save the explanation for the spoilers so it looks nice.
As for the sideboard, I want to try -2 Thoughtseize +2 Pyroclasm, but I'm less confident about that one
Why only 1 Zetalpa?
This, along with the next couple questions, was a result of direct testing and the card always being underwelming, not being what I needed or losing even after Flaying it away. More importantly, I am not trying to be a double-strike, combo kill you kind of deck.
Apart from being lackluster, other cards just impressed me more, for the reasons below.
Why Chromanticore?
So, again, after testing early leagues, I was losing to opposing aggression, while easily winning any time I had lifelink. Double strike, while obviously great, was still losing me games when it was not paired with lifelnk (ie Zetalpa).
Since vigilance was also acting as a psuedo-double strike allowing for life gain on the attack and the block, I split Reaver/Chromanticore evenly. Generally, having more than 1 copy of a card is not great, although it is for chaining Flayers, it's practically hard to do and you usually want to make the first as good (read diverse) as possible.
Finally, and more sublty, Chromaticore allows for easier Traverse activation, which is incredibly relevant, as I'll explain later.
Why Hazoret?
So, again with testing, Hazoret won me 2 of 13 games in this league, both post board. Indestructible and haste are both very relevant, the former invalidating most removal, and the latter making the deck a turn faster.
Most importantly, the fact that she is also my secondary wincon postboard was crazy good, which really synergizes with the sideboard plan. It also leads to the next question.
Why Thrun?
The main reason for Carnage Tyrant was for hexproof. In 1 out of the 13 games, the trample may have been relevant as I only delved away it and a Bomat on t3 against a delver deck, but it was mostly always overlapped with another instance of trample.
This, along with the Hazoret revelation above (re main deck secondary wincon) made me reconsider my choice of Tyrant (which I chose mostly because I thought it had the most relevant additional ability after hexproof).
I would be surprised if Thrun turns out to be worse than Tyrant and don't foresee going back to it.
Why the anti-hate sideboard?
Well, the original deck had most of the same choices and as I understood it was meant as anti-hate, which I found to be true because you can easily fire one of and then quickly delve out a Flayer.
The specific mix of cards allows for a variety of answers to literally every relevant sideboard hate card. Pithing Needle is my own inclusion and additionally covers the cheap artifacts (Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crpt) and Scavenging Ooze. The thought with Seize is that it's the perfect catch all.
Now that I have some alternate wincons, I expect this to get better as they just give you more choices with the already versatile sideboard cards. In addition to killing hate and enabling Flayer, they also can disrupt the opponent's main plan enough to then slam one of the 4 drops.
Sylvan Caryatid is particularly good post board to accelerate a 4 drop t3, so I don't recommend cutting her.
I want to try 2 Pyroclasm mainly because 2 for 1'ing an aggressive start after a looting or something seems nice. Golgari Charm overperformed, so it could end up being -1 Pyro +1 Charm.
As for what you are taking out, -4 Grisly Salvage almost every time. It's a great g1 card that can literally set up bonkers t3. When you are bringing in instants/sorceries and battling gy hate, it's not ideal (though I will keep in a couple against certain decks/hate cards). After that, I'm normally shaving a Flayer, a few delve fodder fatties and some number of Couriers and Trolls, depending how much hate I plan to see or how many SB cards I'm bringing in.
Why no gy hate?
So in testing, for this deck and in general right now, I have not been impressed with direct gy hate with the current metagame. The decks that use the gy are just not crippled enough by anything other than RIP so I think gy hate is a trap right now. I just think there are more impactful things you could be doing.
Only one Swamp?
So the idea with this one is that your sideboard is already so capable to dealing with a Blood Moon (and Hazoret laughs at it). I'd rather my first two fetches get Forest Swamp to cast all my potential outs, than a Flayer that I'm usually boarding down on anyway. Sometimes all you need is a forest for Nature's Claim!
All that being said, it would definitely be my first consideration in any changes to the mana base, which has been lovely, I might add.
So what's with Bomat Courier?
Bomat enables t2 Traverse into t3 Soulflayer by holding priority when casting Traverse and then activating Courier's ability, ideally with 2 cards underneath. As log as you can also enable Delirium, which shouldn't be too hard considering Courier itself is 2 out of 4, you can then tutor the Flayer and delve any fatties that you discarded, including the Courier itself for haste!
To this end, Chromanticore is the 1 fatty I would consider upping to 4, but I don't think it's necessary. It has, however, been great at 3 and can enable Delirium with Looting and a fetchland, which also sets up a t2 traverse into t3 Flayer.
Another cool application that happened a couple of times (and unsurprisingly lead to wins) was flipping a Flayer with Courier's exiled cards, which triggers before Traverse actually resolves, which then allows you to search for a Hazoret (or Thrun now) to really shut the door.
So is it consistent?
All I can say is yes, believe me. I consistently played a Soulflayer in g1 of almost every match I've played. Traverse is a messed up magic card. That being said, it also was not that difficult to play another Flayer within a couple of turns of the first one.
All that being said, you have to be VERY careful with what you delve so that you balance having fatties for the next Flayer, but also keeping Delirium (or as close to it as possible) for the next Traverse.
Your edit is so true. The absolute hardest decisions are, "do I wait on a threat so I can disrupt something that I won't be able to come back from and get land drops so I can do both later on, or do I just jam and try to eke out as much damage before the bolt snap bolt."
I tend to the control side with this deck because it can turn the corner so quickly. The real question is, "If I disrupt now, will they fizzle enough to give me time to turn the corner and beat them in a couple of turns, or will it just be a temporary road block until they overwhelm me?" The more your disruption is just a temporary roadblock, the more you have to commit threats and tempo them out.
This is why creature decks are the hardest to beat; they will just keep playing creatures and overwhelm you. The only way to beat these decks g1 is to land a delver to fly over and manage the board with peezy tokens, or just race hard and early hoping to top deck the bolt snap bolt. Save removal for flying creatures in Humans, vapor snag for everything else.
Edit: I just want to point out that Shoal is so good because it allows you to do both. It’s not so much that it’s power level was ever doubted, it was always the disadvantage it put you at after. Chart essentially negates that downside.
This is classic delver. Great against combo, can go toe to toe with midrange, struggles with creature matchups. And, well, Tron is just Ton, the bane of any relatively fair deck.
I actually think running more 1 ofs in the board is the right direction.
As for Humans, I run pithing needle, so I do bring in moon. Anger is great for this and I’m starting to run 1 because I think it’s necessary (cut a truth from my original list).
As for Tron, I also run disdainful stroke, which I think is amazing. Pithing needle is also a way to shut down karn/ugin.
Those are two cards I think you cut, Trinket, which help in these matchup specifically.
Burn is also a tough matchup but I think we have enough with everything to just cross fingers and pray. The only thing I may suggest is possibly life goes on or something if you really need it for your metagame. Stuff like dragon claw is not good
Edit: one last thing, I know Mike had mentioned not wanting to cut threats cause there are so few, but honestly, in big creature matchups where Your opp is very likely to easily block swiftsepar, she is mostly a blank until you go for an alpha, so shaving there I think is important. You basically want to control what they do at first, then ride a delver or peezy to victory.
Edit 2: gotta say, Melody has been only good and pretty much never bad, so I feel like 1 is definitely correct. I just played against Jund last night and they had a discard spell pretty much every turn. Drew into chart a course into 2 more chart a courses (one of which I immediately cast) and it was pretty much game over.
While I agree I can’t cut shoal fast enough in g2 sometimes, it’s funny that it can still win me some g1s against fair decks, just like with a timely FoW in legacy. I’ve been keeping it in a bit more on the draw against important 1 drops like vial or arbor elf/sprawl etc. And since I like NEVER cut chart a course, it’s never really a problem.
Otherwise, I totally agree. I’m not usually cutting much of anything else. Mostly shaving 1 of some 4 drop, like a snappy when I bring in cage, etc.
You can kind of add bolt to that list, cause I do cut it completely sometimes, but a couple always seem to stay in for the reach.
Edit: As for mana bases, I think 4 canal is super important. 2 vents/1 pool split. I personally would not play falls because I regularly keep 1 hand lands. 7 fetch, 3/1 island/mountain.
Edit2: Another card I’ve been wanting to test is Harvest Pyre over Melody as well. I feel like this card gets forgotten a lot because of delve in grixis being a nonbo, but we can definitely abuse it!
(LOL autocorrect changed “grixis being a nonbo” to “grifos being a bimbo”. Oh Grifos, such a bimbo)
Edit 3: I kinda forgot about it when I was writing, so don't forget you can hard cast shoal
I’m super stoked people are trying the list out. I have still been enjoying shoal, which is surprising because by now I usually ditch it in past lists. There are definitely flex slots, so keep testing!
One last thing: Spree does kill chalice, just FYI. All that being said, Grudge is one of the most powerful cards in modern for this meta, so it’s gotta be correct
Edit: I didn’t see your SB guide. This is pretty much how I have been boarding. My only note would be to shave random cards depending on the matchup. Like I’ll shave a chart a course against aggro, a swift spear against bigger creature decks on the draw, keep a snag in like you say for random matchups. Conversely, there are many matchups I’ll just bring in 1 instead of both SB cards
Like most delver lists, our library manipulation lets us see cards more often, so keep that in mind.
Please do. The Breeding Pool / Grudge splash occurred to me as well, taking a page from the old UR Twin lists. But part of why I think straight UR is so attractive is the ease of the mana base. And once you've got Grudges in the side . . . why not Tarmogoyf in the main? Or Hooting Mandrills? And all of a sudden you're a RUG deck. Not that that's wrong, but just something to think about.
Ya, I second a report of this grudge experiment.
I also agree about the staying UR, but splashing one breeding pool for grudge is very low cost. Any maindeck green spells require at least 2, if not also a couple fastlands. Grudge has the advantage that you can actually cast it without green.
Personally, I think spree is still better generally, but grudge has almost no downside, so it shouldn’t be a problem at all.
I actually run 18 in my list, the person that responded to me ran 17. I've always been a bit skeptical of 17, but land counts generally always depend on the event you are going to play. If you are going to a GP, you need the consistency of 18 lands, but if you are just going to play a few rounds at fnm, variability could make 17 not matter for those games.
Sick report. I'm telling you digging and getting rewarded with a shoal feels so good. And that peezy interaction you describe literally makes me feel like i'm playing legacy
Lantern seems like a tough matchup generally, but this is a case where I think I want to call out your smashes, because they probably would have been better as shattering spree to get a 2 for 1 or fight through welding jar. For that matchup specifically, it feels like 3 damage is not as relevant as spree's versatility.
As for green, I have my own strong reasons for staying U/R, but I'm not one to stifle brewing and testing, and goyf and grudge are definitely the best (unless I'm forgetting something, maybe lifegain for burn) to go green. The main reasons to stay UR for me being:
1) all the reasons why treasure cruise's best home was in U/R
2) each of the four creatures already serves very specific purposes and adding more is bad for delver
3) a streamlined mana base makes blood moon reliably castable with double blue, which, while not technically needed, is actually needed when you haven't been able to fully screw the opponent. Having 2 to snap cantrip, cast melody, etc. buries an opponent even if they do have a basic out.
4) I wouldn't know how to build it =P
Cool list, too, btw, with the saucy deprive. I think there are definitely a handful of slots you can mess around with, but the core of the 4 creatures, 2 cantrips, bolt, shoal, chart, snag/other removal, counters has some serious potential
Edit: BTW, I'm curious how the Anger felt?
Thanks, it was a blast to play. I did consider Shattering Spree, but I was leaning towards being aggressive and thought the extra damage from Smash might be relevant. It's pretty obvious now that the CA is more important in most matches in which we want our artifact hate. For lantern in particular, Grudge seems the best because milling doesn't stop it. I think I'm going to upgrade to fetches and run a single breeding pool for Grudge, as I've sometimes seen others do. I don't think we lose much stability in the mana base by doing so, and a single green opens many sideboard options up.
Deprive was great every time. Having an actual hard counter was very relevant at times, and the deck is so land light that you don't feel set back by bouncing one past turn 3-4 ish. Getting a land to loot with Chart when you're out of threats is also nice. I almost want another copy in the main deck, but I'm hesitatant because I think having two in hand any time would be clunky. Pretty happy with the counter sweet in general.
I didn't get much chance to try Anger of the Gods, but it was fine against Affinity. I chose it for Dredge because it exiles everything besides Troll, but it's also good for any deck that swarms or plays a lot of small creatures. So Affinity, CoCo, Elves, Burn, not sure about Merfolk, but it seems like it would be ok if you can keep them off their lords.
I'm curious about Entrancing Melody. When do you bring that in? Is it just Death's Shadow and Jund?
Edit: It was actually a reddit Dredge player that recommended Anger. Said it was a beating when they go off and you just exile everything. I could see Ravenous Trap in it's place for that matchup, as maybe it's important to get threats down early and not blow them up too. However, Anger is considerably less narrow. I think if we start with Cage, we attempt to race, with Anger, we're on the control plan, so we wait to deploy a threat until we have a counter for Conflagrate.
ah yes, the ol' "deprive is so good every time I cast it, so I want to run more, but it's terrible in multiples". I've run into it so many times in the past. I agree with keeping it at 1 and just loving it when you draw it.
As for Anger, it's what I thought. I play online a lot, so I like echoing truth for it's versaitliy, but like I said above, if you think you need a real sweeper for you metagame, Anger is indeed the best against dredge.
So to preface, I could easily see shaving melody to 1, I just want to get reps in with it to see how it plays against different decks. Sure, it's there for shadow, but I've found it to be a beating against any other decks with 1 or 2 drops they really want to keep. It can grab a huge champoin of the parish, I've stolen an arbor elf that put Ponza so far back they just scooped, goyf is good because it's usually in decks that go longer so you can get to 4 mana. It's mostly just a sweet, potentially game ending effect that has implications in a shadow metagame. I definitely wouldn't run it if I knew I wasn't going to see any Shadow decks, it's just rampant online.
Sick report. I'm telling you digging and getting rewarded with a shoal feels so good. And that peezy interaction you describe literally makes me feel like i'm playing legacy
Lantern seems like a tough matchup generally, but this is a case where I think I want to call out your smashes, because they probably would have been better as shattering spree to get a 2 for 1 or fight through welding jar. For that matchup specifically, it feels like 3 damage is not as relevant as spree's versatility.
As for green, I have my own strong reasons for staying U/R, but I'm not one to stifle brewing and testing, and goyf and grudge are definitely the best (unless I'm forgetting something, maybe lifegain for burn) to go green. The main reasons to stay UR for me being:
1) all the reasons why treasure cruise's best home was in U/R
2) each of the four creatures already serves very specific purposes and adding more is bad for delver
3) a streamlined mana base makes blood moon reliably castable with double blue, which, while not technically needed, is actually needed when you haven't been able to fully screw the opponent. Having 2 to snap cantrip, cast melody, etc. buries an opponent even if they do have a basic out.
4) I wouldn't know how to build it =P
Cool list, too, btw, with the saucy deprive. I think there are definitely a handful of slots you can mess around with, but the core of the 4 creatures, 2 cantrips, bolt, shoal, chart, snag/other removal, counters has some serious potential
It's really fun. Chart a course is bonkers and young peezy is just so strong.
1. I would test Nimble Obs before Clique, honestly, good catch. It's (infinitely) easier to cast off blood moon and I don't think you actually need clique's ability. I might test this over 1 Melody.
2. I'm not gonna argue electrolyze cause it can be a 3 for 1 and is just a house generally, but I value cheap cards a lot and vapor snag is REALLY good. T2 deploy a threat, bounce yours wins games.
3. Like you say, it's mostly a metagame thing, where literally 98% of decks play some amount of moxen. Just leave it in the board. You'll be doing plenty of screwing, trust me. And god does it feel good slamming that game 2 when you are up a game and they have that look on their face like "Welp, I don't have anything to deal with that..."
4. I would shave a snappy when you board it in and not bat an eyelash. I even do this against other snapcaster decks because asymmetric knowledge is a real thing. Think about it this way, snappy is much better as a 2/1 chip shotter than in any other deck and is actually rewarded by chart a course.
5. Fair. Abrade is fine anyway, but just for fun, take note of how much better it would be if it was a spree instead when you use it.
BTW, echoing truth is my pseudo-sweeper, but if you actually need a real one for like elves (which I'm admittedly not boarding for), I would go with blazing volley.
You've sold me on Disrupting Shoal. Proxied them up and have a list pretty similar to yours that will be ready to go for FNM in a few weeks. I'm excited. I've literally never played blue in Modern, so this will be new. The deck seems to have a pretty steep learning curve, but I draft blue from my cube a lot so I've got some idea.
A few questions:
1. Any thought to a slightly larger creature as a one-of somewhere in the 75? I know some of the similar RUG decks are playing a Huntmaster or two, but for us it'd probably be more like a Clique.
2. Are the Vapor Snags and Disdainful Strokes enough for the delve creatures? Do you bring in Echoing Truth for those, too?
3. Any thought to a main deck Blood Moon?
4. Seems a little light on grave hate in the side. I know lots of pros recommend 4 pieces. Cage seems good and versatile, as you say, but maybe a Relic of Progenitus or even a Surgical Extraction would be a good addition in certain metas?
5. Any thought to Abrade in the side? Seems versatile and dodges Chalice.
1. I have very much thought about it. It would probably be over an enchanting melody. Haven't thought much about what, though, so feel free to test. Generally, Chart a Course does incredible things, so the need for extra threats is not as high as in other delver decks.
2. I would say overall, yes. And yes, I do bring in Truth in most delve matchups because those are also fair matchups, where I usually cut Shoal completely. Non-trample creatures generally are not a problem if you have an active Pyromancer as well. I usually try to maneuver it so I have that going and just fly over with delver (which probably makes clique a great choice for #1). Tempoing with remand is great too (usually leave in 2) cause they will normally take another turn to restock the yard. Also, I will usually board out 2 swiftspear (or more on the draw).
3. Honestly, it is so good in the board, and the main is so focused, that I think it's right to keep it there. I'm sure there are metagames where it would be called for, but it's a great way to beat removal in games 2 and 3, so tipping them off isn't worth it.
4. GY hate is definitely light, but it's mostly because the only real GY deck I'm worried about is Dredge, and echoing truth is actually great against their nut draw, so probably would shave 1 there if you wanted to add more gy hate. I would stick with cage, though, for it's versatility and because it's the cleanest and most backbreaking at 1. That you don't have to invest anything else into it is actually a really big deal. Surgical maybe, but I'm not the biggest fan of it in modern rn. GY hate in modern is kind of whatever you want it to be though, so do what you prefer.
5. You're not really looking for more 3 damage removal and kicked shattering spree also dodges chalice and is necessary for the 2 for 1s in other matchups. I would also consider going up to 2 if you are having trouble with those decks.
Final points: Generally, I like echoing truth for the kind of game I'm trying to play, namely bounce something back EOT and then counter it on the way down somehow. Patience is very important with the deck and bouncing, then countering on the way back is a huge tempo game, and rewards patience. It's better to be conservative and hold up counters than tap out (unless you have shoal of course).
It's hilarious how I have come to many of these same conclusions on my own before reading the last few pages. I have been playing a UR Chart a Course list to ~65% win rate through a few leagues now (and a few with my pre-shoal version on top of that).
I want to preface by saying that I have never been a Disrupting Shoal fan. I have always tried it in my lists and always come to the same conclusion: I'd rather have a split of spell snare/spell pierce/mana leak (or whatever) because the card disadvantage was so backbreaking. It works in legacy because you need it (let's be honest, you're never casting shoal on t1 to a literal game winning play) and because of daze tbh.
But Chart a Course changes everything. Now saving your dork when they push it gets you a draw 2 as a reward. Conversely, tapping out for chart a course on t2 can draw you into shoaling their t2 play. Not to mention young peezy into shoal is as great as it is in legacy...Honestly, I don't want to be too aggressive, but shoal/chart feels a lot like fow/brainstorm in many subtle ways. In fact, the deck plays a lot like a legacy deck in that you have to be patient. It's not an aggro list; it's classic tempo.
The main deck is just raw power (and disrupting shoal, which, I swear is good in this deck, I promise) (oh and remand, but c'mon you need that card). The spread of 1 and 2 mana spells also translates to a nice selection in game for shoal. As for remand, the tempo has won me more than 1 game (many in fact), and is one of the few ways you can beat tron/scapeshift/etc. g1. Where remand lacks in power, it more than makes up for in versatility, also. This is also, incidentally enough, why shoal has been so outstanding.
I'm not going to preach to the choir at this point, but chart a course is bonkers and I don't think there is any going back. Is it cruise? of course not, but this card is truth, no doubt about it.
I feel like I have to highlight once more just how much I used to hate disrupting shoal, which I feel gives my decision more credibility somehow...in reality, I actually keep winning, instead of losing like I used to. And I feel better/more in control/confident than when I had whatever other counters were there before, particularly knowing that I will be able to make up the card disadvantage if I need to with a chart a course later.
I want to touch on the swiftspear/guide debate because it has been on my mind a lot. There are many games where guide would probably have done more damage, but at the same time, I can't bring myself to cut swiftspear. That you can ride her into the late game and make her a 3/4 or 4/5 is actually incredibly relevant, where goblin guide is just an embarrassment.
Also, if you aren't playing snapcaster, I'm sorry, but you have to be doing it wrong. I play a similar list in legacy, and there is no way that playing something like stormchaser mage has ever been better than snapcaster. Why would you play such trash in a format that has so much power? Anyway, /rant sorry. But the argument stands, bolt snap bolt is better than any "aggressive" creature you can possibly name.
As for the board, I have fully embraced the tempo strategy. Having a diverse counter-suite is the way to go and further pushes you into the tempo/having patience gameplay. Blood moon is a house, and also wins what may otherwise be hard matchups. Spree kills chalice and is cheap, and can be a 3 or even 4 for 1 in some matchups. Cage cause, again, of it's versatility and cheap cost. Needle as a cheap, versatile (suprise) answer to planeswalkers and other nonsense. Entrancing melody is kinda the flavor of the month, but it has been a blow out in various games, including GDS.
I want to give a special mention to echoing truth, as it is really the glue that holds everything together. As you can tell, I value versatility highly in modern and echoing truth is everything from a token sweeper to an enchantment remover. I have probably won as many games because of echoing truth than any other sideboard card. It's not even like a "gotcha" card (even though it can give you some free wins from opponents not playing around it), it's just a great answer to a lot of things that give us trouble. I regularly bring in 1 as a hedge in most matchups.
Now, will it actually be better than whatever it is replacing due to removal is a different question. I do know there was at least one person on here playing contraband kingpin due to the scry.
Edit: I mean, assuming (worst case) you are playing 20 cheeri0s, have 1 and a dude in hand, then you are 19/52 (36.5%) to continue chaining on the first draw that turn, compared to 60.2%; an addition of (33/52)(19/51) 23.6%.
Assuming you have a retract or opal in your opener (or more cheeri0s so you can draw into either of them and still continue chaining), that probability should only get better.
That being said, this is looking at the conditional probability of having a t2 worthy opener, so the effect on overall probability of a t2 kill may not be significant
That being said, an opener with assistant and multiple cheeri0s can scry you into a dude or land to cast the one you have in hand.
The card seems very good for the deck. The question is what to cut.
Visions is not ideal for the goldfish, but interaction might be necessary for MD problem cards. The latest iteration a few posts back ran a disgustingly low number of lands, so maybe shaving there, but I'm pretty scared to go down to 14 lands in my build.
Edit 2: It even scrys when you play Sram Poggers
I'm gonna run the following list:
2 thoughtcast
1 echoing truth
1 noxious revival
20 cheeri0s
4 opal
4 retract
1 grapeshot
I have always liked Echoing Truth since the early Sram days when I seriously began playing the deck since it can bounce problem cards, but also bounce some of your own cheeri0s in a pinch.
Revival is obviously a must for anyone who's played the deck.
I 3-2'd my first competitive league just now with this
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Soulflayer
3 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Chromanticore
3 Drogskol Reaver
1 Zetalpa, Primal Dawn
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
1-2 Burn
2-1 Restore Balance (pretty sweet deck actually, updated with md bloodmoon, sweltering suns, nahiri, ajani)
2-0 Jeskai Control
2-0 Hollow One
I gotta say, the courier/traverse/looting/salvage/lotleth/caryatid core is a dream. I think that core is really what gives the deck its power and consistency. It really feels like the creatures you end up pitching can be endlessly mixed and matched depending on what you want to accomplish and what your metagame consists of.
Flying and trample give you evasion. Double-strike and haste basically end games quickly. Lifelink and Vigilance allow you to race. Hexproof and Indestructible give you resiliency.
Whatever direction you take, as I said earlier, the core is there, so I encourage people to tailor the creature pitches to their metagame and test for more info.
Samut really takes the deck in that more aggressive, kill-you direction that I have definitely missed in some games that I just wanted to close it out. I'm going to go -1 zetalpa, +1 samut keeping an eye on the tough trim that I will likely want for the second Samut. It may seem easy to just cut down to 18 lands, but I can't recommend it. The mana has really been a dream. Thrun is high on the list to shave down to 2.
As for the board, I'm going to try -2 lightning axe +2 pyroclasm and rely on the lotleth troll regeneration against goyf/gurmag. I miss the sweeper, what can I say.
General Thoughts:
Thrun
Hazoret
GY Hate
Obviously some decks will still want it, but I think most just want to do their thing.
Thoughtseize
Lightning Axe/Pyroclasm
Grisly Salvage
P.S. Traverse is a silly card.
4 Traverse the Ulvenwald
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lotleth Troll
4 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Grisly Salvage
4 Soulflayer
2 Hazoret the Fervent
3 Chromanticore
3 Carnage Tyrant
2 Drogskol Reaver
3 Zetalpa, Primal Dawn
2 Blooming Marsh
2 Blood Crypt
2 Overgrown Tomb
1 Stomping Ground
1 Forest
1 Swamp
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Lightning Axe
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Golgari Charm
As for the sideboard, I want to try -2 Thoughtseize +2 Pyroclasm, but I'm less confident about that one
Why only 1 Zetalpa?
Apart from being lackluster, other cards just impressed me more, for the reasons below.
Since vigilance was also acting as a psuedo-double strike allowing for life gain on the attack and the block, I split Reaver/Chromanticore evenly. Generally, having more than 1 copy of a card is not great, although it is for chaining Flayers, it's practically hard to do and you usually want to make the first as good (read diverse) as possible.
Finally, and more sublty, Chromaticore allows for easier Traverse activation, which is incredibly relevant, as I'll explain later.
Most importantly, the fact that she is also my secondary wincon postboard was crazy good, which really synergizes with the sideboard plan. It also leads to the next question.
This, along with the Hazoret revelation above (re main deck secondary wincon) made me reconsider my choice of Tyrant (which I chose mostly because I thought it had the most relevant additional ability after hexproof).
I would be surprised if Thrun turns out to be worse than Tyrant and don't foresee going back to it.
The specific mix of cards allows for a variety of answers to literally every relevant sideboard hate card. Pithing Needle is my own inclusion and additionally covers the cheap artifacts (Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb, Tormod's Crpt) and Scavenging Ooze. The thought with Seize is that it's the perfect catch all.
Now that I have some alternate wincons, I expect this to get better as they just give you more choices with the already versatile sideboard cards. In addition to killing hate and enabling Flayer, they also can disrupt the opponent's main plan enough to then slam one of the 4 drops.
Sylvan Caryatid is particularly good post board to accelerate a 4 drop t3, so I don't recommend cutting her.
I want to try 2 Pyroclasm mainly because 2 for 1'ing an aggressive start after a looting or something seems nice. Golgari Charm overperformed, so it could end up being -1 Pyro +1 Charm.
As for what you are taking out, -4 Grisly Salvage almost every time. It's a great g1 card that can literally set up bonkers t3. When you are bringing in instants/sorceries and battling gy hate, it's not ideal (though I will keep in a couple against certain decks/hate cards). After that, I'm normally shaving a Flayer, a few delve fodder fatties and some number of Couriers and Trolls, depending how much hate I plan to see or how many SB cards I'm bringing in.
All that being said, it would definitely be my first consideration in any changes to the mana base, which has been lovely, I might add.
To this end, Chromanticore is the 1 fatty I would consider upping to 4, but I don't think it's necessary. It has, however, been great at 3 and can enable Delirium with Looting and a fetchland, which also sets up a t2 traverse into t3 Flayer.
Another cool application that happened a couple of times (and unsurprisingly lead to wins) was flipping a Flayer with Courier's exiled cards, which triggers before Traverse actually resolves, which then allows you to search for a Hazoret (or Thrun now) to really shut the door.
All that being said, you have to be VERY careful with what you delve so that you balance having fatties for the next Flayer, but also keeping Delirium (or as close to it as possible) for the next Traverse.
I tend to the control side with this deck because it can turn the corner so quickly. The real question is, "If I disrupt now, will they fizzle enough to give me time to turn the corner and beat them in a couple of turns, or will it just be a temporary road block until they overwhelm me?" The more your disruption is just a temporary roadblock, the more you have to commit threats and tempo them out.
This is why creature decks are the hardest to beat; they will just keep playing creatures and overwhelm you. The only way to beat these decks g1 is to land a delver to fly over and manage the board with peezy tokens, or just race hard and early hoping to top deck the bolt snap bolt. Save removal for flying creatures in Humans, vapor snag for everything else.
Edit: I just want to point out that Shoal is so good because it allows you to do both. It’s not so much that it’s power level was ever doubted, it was always the disadvantage it put you at after. Chart essentially negates that downside.
I actually think running more 1 ofs in the board is the right direction.
As for Humans, I run pithing needle, so I do bring in moon. Anger is great for this and I’m starting to run 1 because I think it’s necessary (cut a truth from my original list).
As for Tron, I also run disdainful stroke, which I think is amazing. Pithing needle is also a way to shut down karn/ugin.
Those are two cards I think you cut, Trinket, which help in these matchup specifically.
Burn is also a tough matchup but I think we have enough with everything to just cross fingers and pray. The only thing I may suggest is possibly life goes on or something if you really need it for your metagame. Stuff like dragon claw is not good
Edit: one last thing, I know Mike had mentioned not wanting to cut threats cause there are so few, but honestly, in big creature matchups where Your opp is very likely to easily block swiftsepar, she is mostly a blank until you go for an alpha, so shaving there I think is important. You basically want to control what they do at first, then ride a delver or peezy to victory.
Edit 2: gotta say, Melody has been only good and pretty much never bad, so I feel like 1 is definitely correct. I just played against Jund last night and they had a discard spell pretty much every turn. Drew into chart a course into 2 more chart a courses (one of which I immediately cast) and it was pretty much game over.
Pyre just seems nice against the small handful of creatures like delve, eldrazi etc that we can sometimes have trouble with.
I continue to be impressed. I think this general shell has some legs.
Otherwise, I totally agree. I’m not usually cutting much of anything else. Mostly shaving 1 of some 4 drop, like a snappy when I bring in cage, etc.
You can kind of add bolt to that list, cause I do cut it completely sometimes, but a couple always seem to stay in for the reach.
Edit: As for mana bases, I think 4 canal is super important. 2 vents/1 pool split. I personally would not play falls because I regularly keep 1 hand lands. 7 fetch, 3/1 island/mountain.
Edit2: Another card I’ve been wanting to test is Harvest Pyre over Melody as well. I feel like this card gets forgotten a lot because of delve in grixis being a nonbo, but we can definitely abuse it!
(LOL autocorrect changed “grixis being a nonbo” to “grifos being a bimbo”. Oh Grifos, such a bimbo)
Edit 3: I kinda forgot about it when I was writing, so don't forget you can hard cast shoal
One last thing: Spree does kill chalice, just FYI. All that being said, Grudge is one of the most powerful cards in modern for this meta, so it’s gotta be correct
Edit: I didn’t see your SB guide. This is pretty much how I have been boarding. My only note would be to shave random cards depending on the matchup. Like I’ll shave a chart a course against aggro, a swift spear against bigger creature decks on the draw, keep a snag in like you say for random matchups. Conversely, there are many matchups I’ll just bring in 1 instead of both SB cards
Like most delver lists, our library manipulation lets us see cards more often, so keep that in mind.
Ya, I second a report of this grudge experiment.
I also agree about the staying UR, but splashing one breeding pool for grudge is very low cost. Any maindeck green spells require at least 2, if not also a couple fastlands. Grudge has the advantage that you can actually cast it without green.
Personally, I think spree is still better generally, but grudge has almost no downside, so it shouldn’t be a problem at all.
ah yes, the ol' "deprive is so good every time I cast it, so I want to run more, but it's terrible in multiples". I've run into it so many times in the past. I agree with keeping it at 1 and just loving it when you draw it.
As for Anger, it's what I thought. I play online a lot, so I like echoing truth for it's versaitliy, but like I said above, if you think you need a real sweeper for you metagame, Anger is indeed the best against dredge.
So to preface, I could easily see shaving melody to 1, I just want to get reps in with it to see how it plays against different decks. Sure, it's there for shadow, but I've found it to be a beating against any other decks with 1 or 2 drops they really want to keep. It can grab a huge champoin of the parish, I've stolen an arbor elf that put Ponza so far back they just scooped, goyf is good because it's usually in decks that go longer so you can get to 4 mana. It's mostly just a sweet, potentially game ending effect that has implications in a shadow metagame. I definitely wouldn't run it if I knew I wasn't going to see any Shadow decks, it's just rampant online.
Lantern seems like a tough matchup generally, but this is a case where I think I want to call out your smashes, because they probably would have been better as shattering spree to get a 2 for 1 or fight through welding jar. For that matchup specifically, it feels like 3 damage is not as relevant as spree's versatility.
As for green, I have my own strong reasons for staying U/R, but I'm not one to stifle brewing and testing, and goyf and grudge are definitely the best (unless I'm forgetting something, maybe lifegain for burn) to go green. The main reasons to stay UR for me being:
1) all the reasons why treasure cruise's best home was in U/R
2) each of the four creatures already serves very specific purposes and adding more is bad for delver
3) a streamlined mana base makes blood moon reliably castable with double blue, which, while not technically needed, is actually needed when you haven't been able to fully screw the opponent. Having 2 to snap cantrip, cast melody, etc. buries an opponent even if they do have a basic out.
4) I wouldn't know how to build it =P
Cool list, too, btw, with the saucy deprive. I think there are definitely a handful of slots you can mess around with, but the core of the 4 creatures, 2 cantrips, bolt, shoal, chart, snag/other removal, counters has some serious potential
Edit: BTW, I'm curious how the Anger felt?
1. I would test Nimble Obs before Clique, honestly, good catch. It's (infinitely) easier to cast off blood moon and I don't think you actually need clique's ability. I might test this over 1 Melody.
2. I'm not gonna argue electrolyze cause it can be a 3 for 1 and is just a house generally, but I value cheap cards a lot and vapor snag is REALLY good. T2 deploy a threat, bounce yours wins games.
3. Like you say, it's mostly a metagame thing, where literally 98% of decks play some amount of moxen. Just leave it in the board. You'll be doing plenty of screwing, trust me. And god does it feel good slamming that game 2 when you are up a game and they have that look on their face like "Welp, I don't have anything to deal with that..."
4. I would shave a snappy when you board it in and not bat an eyelash. I even do this against other snapcaster decks because asymmetric knowledge is a real thing. Think about it this way, snappy is much better as a 2/1 chip shotter than in any other deck and is actually rewarded by chart a course.
5. Fair. Abrade is fine anyway, but just for fun, take note of how much better it would be if it was a spree instead when you use it.
BTW, echoing truth is my pseudo-sweeper, but if you actually need a real one for like elves (which I'm admittedly not boarding for), I would go with blazing volley.
1. I have very much thought about it. It would probably be over an enchanting melody. Haven't thought much about what, though, so feel free to test. Generally, Chart a Course does incredible things, so the need for extra threats is not as high as in other delver decks.
2. I would say overall, yes. And yes, I do bring in Truth in most delve matchups because those are also fair matchups, where I usually cut Shoal completely. Non-trample creatures generally are not a problem if you have an active Pyromancer as well. I usually try to maneuver it so I have that going and just fly over with delver (which probably makes clique a great choice for #1). Tempoing with remand is great too (usually leave in 2) cause they will normally take another turn to restock the yard. Also, I will usually board out 2 swiftspear (or more on the draw).
3. Honestly, it is so good in the board, and the main is so focused, that I think it's right to keep it there. I'm sure there are metagames where it would be called for, but it's a great way to beat removal in games 2 and 3, so tipping them off isn't worth it.
4. GY hate is definitely light, but it's mostly because the only real GY deck I'm worried about is Dredge, and echoing truth is actually great against their nut draw, so probably would shave 1 there if you wanted to add more gy hate. I would stick with cage, though, for it's versatility and because it's the cleanest and most backbreaking at 1. That you don't have to invest anything else into it is actually a really big deal. Surgical maybe, but I'm not the biggest fan of it in modern rn. GY hate in modern is kind of whatever you want it to be though, so do what you prefer.
5. You're not really looking for more 3 damage removal and kicked shattering spree also dodges chalice and is necessary for the 2 for 1s in other matchups. I would also consider going up to 2 if you are having trouble with those decks.
Final points: Generally, I like echoing truth for the kind of game I'm trying to play, namely bounce something back EOT and then counter it on the way down somehow. Patience is very important with the deck and bouncing, then countering on the way back is a huge tempo game, and rewards patience. It's better to be conservative and hold up counters than tap out (unless you have shoal of course).
Don't forget you can hard cast Shoal. Good luck!
I want to preface by saying that I have never been a Disrupting Shoal fan. I have always tried it in my lists and always come to the same conclusion: I'd rather have a split of spell snare/spell pierce/mana leak (or whatever) because the card disadvantage was so backbreaking. It works in legacy because you need it (let's be honest, you're never casting shoal on t1 to a literal game winning play) and because of daze tbh.
But Chart a Course changes everything. Now saving your dork when they push it gets you a draw 2 as a reward. Conversely, tapping out for chart a course on t2 can draw you into shoaling their t2 play. Not to mention young peezy into shoal is as great as it is in legacy...Honestly, I don't want to be too aggressive, but shoal/chart feels a lot like fow/brainstorm in many subtle ways. In fact, the deck plays a lot like a legacy deck in that you have to be patient. It's not an aggro list; it's classic tempo.
4 monastery swiftspear
4 young pyromancer
4 snapcaster mage
4 lightning bolt
4 serum visions
4 opt
4 chart a course
4 remand
4 disrupting shoal
2 vapor snag
4 scalding tarn
2 misty rainforest
3 steam vents
4 island
1 mountain
2 dispel
2 ceremonious rejection
2 disdainful stroke
2 echoing truth
2 entrancing melody
2 blood moon
1 shattering spree
1 grafdigger's cage
1 pithing needle
The main deck is just raw power (and disrupting shoal, which, I swear is good in this deck, I promise) (oh and remand, but c'mon you need that card). The spread of 1 and 2 mana spells also translates to a nice selection in game for shoal. As for remand, the tempo has won me more than 1 game (many in fact), and is one of the few ways you can beat tron/scapeshift/etc. g1. Where remand lacks in power, it more than makes up for in versatility, also. This is also, incidentally enough, why shoal has been so outstanding.
I'm not going to preach to the choir at this point, but chart a course is bonkers and I don't think there is any going back. Is it cruise? of course not, but this card is truth, no doubt about it.
I feel like I have to highlight once more just how much I used to hate disrupting shoal, which I feel gives my decision more credibility somehow...in reality, I actually keep winning, instead of losing like I used to. And I feel better/more in control/confident than when I had whatever other counters were there before, particularly knowing that I will be able to make up the card disadvantage if I need to with a chart a course later.
I want to touch on the swiftspear/guide debate because it has been on my mind a lot. There are many games where guide would probably have done more damage, but at the same time, I can't bring myself to cut swiftspear. That you can ride her into the late game and make her a 3/4 or 4/5 is actually incredibly relevant, where goblin guide is just an embarrassment.
Also, if you aren't playing snapcaster, I'm sorry, but you have to be doing it wrong. I play a similar list in legacy, and there is no way that playing something like stormchaser mage has ever been better than snapcaster. Why would you play such trash in a format that has so much power? Anyway, /rant sorry. But the argument stands, bolt snap bolt is better than any "aggressive" creature you can possibly name.
As for the board, I have fully embraced the tempo strategy. Having a diverse counter-suite is the way to go and further pushes you into the tempo/having patience gameplay. Blood moon is a house, and also wins what may otherwise be hard matchups. Spree kills chalice and is cheap, and can be a 3 or even 4 for 1 in some matchups. Cage cause, again, of it's versatility and cheap cost. Needle as a cheap, versatile (suprise) answer to planeswalkers and other nonsense. Entrancing melody is kinda the flavor of the month, but it has been a blow out in various games, including GDS.
I want to give a special mention to echoing truth, as it is really the glue that holds everything together. As you can tell, I value versatility highly in modern and echoing truth is everything from a token sweeper to an enchantment remover. I have probably won as many games because of echoing truth than any other sideboard card. It's not even like a "gotcha" card (even though it can give you some free wins from opponents not playing around it), it's just a great answer to a lot of things that give us trouble. I regularly bring in 1 as a hedge in most matchups.