Pretty funny; after playing burn for the entire ptq season with moderate success (more early on than later on after the bannings), I feel like I have more questions than even about it.
Still don't know if B/R or B/R/W is the best version (I think B/R is best)
Still don't know when it is correct to keep 1-land hands. Both mulling and keeping is bad.
Don't know how many lands to play
At least I did eventually realize how awesome Deathrite Shaman is in this deck, after having my initial doubts.
Too many Lightning Helix decks, combined with the extremely difficult U/R Twin matchup means I'm pretty sure I'll be playing a different deck next year.
I used to run Back to Nature for Leylines and the Bogle deck, but aren't both on the decline? It seems many decks are cutting Leylines b/c there isn't as much discard with Jund on the decline, and same thing with Bogles.
<Sabin, I think it's obvious you're trolling me.> I'm out. I'll just leave you with the quote stream on this forum where you compared Hellspark to Incinerate in the combo matchup:
I think it's a meta call. If you anticipate going up against loads of creature decks like Jund and Pod, Incinerate is the better call because it's unblockable and it can hit Deathrite Shaman and combo pieces. If you think you're staring at Tron and combo all day, Hellspark Elemental is better because it can potentially deal 6 damage instead of 3.
Honestly I think hellspark is worse against Combo. Since you're "racing" them you want to deal as much damage as fast as possible. And 6 for 4 over 2 turns is not fast. It's reach. Meant for long grindy matches that involve lifegain from your opponents.
This is baiting defined in the forum rules as trolling. Please cease. t_C
Your assertion was that Hellspark is like Incinerate with unearth. Which would imply that you think Lightning Bolt is the same as Spark Elemental. So...yeah, read what you actually wrote.
You were originally talking about Hellspark vs. Incinerate in the combo matchup, where yes, Hellspark is indeed like Incinerate with unearth. So...yeah, read what you actually wrote.
Honestly I think hellspark is worse against Combo. Since you're "racing" them you want to deal as much damage as fast as possible. And 6 for 4 over 2 turns is not fast. It's reach. Meant for long grindy matches that involve lifegain from your opponents.
My friend who top 16ed the GP just won the Indy ptq with this list. He only lost 2-3 games all day. For the future, he said to take out the Back to Natures.
Yes, but Incinerate is "bad"...it's mediocre at best. And really only taken when you need to fill space. And Hellsparks not a guaranteed 3 damage like Incinerate is, it can be blocked or removed or etc.
Fast decks almost never use it, because they can't afford 3 for 2. They need 3 for 1s.
Comparing Hellspark to Incinerate is like comparing Spark Elemental to Lightning Bolt. And nobody would argue that those two are even in the same league.
1. Exactly what creatures are combo decks blocking Hellspark with again? If they want to block with an Electromancer to prevent 2, that's fine with me. Hellspark is virtually a guaranteed 3 damage vs. combo decks, therefore it's strictly better there.
2. Unfortunately, there's a finite number of 3 for 1s. Therefore, other options are explored.
3. Comparing Hellspark to Incinerate is nothing like comparing Spark Elemental to Lightning Bolt. Hellspark has Unearth, Spark does not. That's a huge difference. Hellspark can potentially deal 6 damage, Incinerate is capped at 3.
Honestly I think hellspark is worse against Combo. Since you're "racing" them you want to deal as much damage as fast as possible. And 6 for 4 over 2 turns is not fast. It's reach. Meant for long grindy matches that involve lifegain from your opponents.
Huh? At worst Hellspark is the exact same as Incinerate, as they both deal 3 damage for 2 mana. But Hellspark can then deal another 3 for 2 anytime you want. Hellspark is way better against combo.
That being said, I play maindeck Keldon Mauraders in my deck, which is even better against combo. Even against other matchups like Jund, it still deals a guaranteed 2 damage, threatens to swing for 3 more, and worst case can just block a Gofy. I used to run Hellspark instead, but after many matches, I think Keldon Mauraders is better in more situations.
This is the timing and relevance in which I play my spells:
Creatures first, Spells later.
1st (always) Goblin Guide
2nd Grim lavamancer
3rd Vexing Devil/Spark Elemental
4th any 2cmc Creatures(Hellspark, Marauders, Ash Zealot)
5th Rift bolt
6th Lava Spike, Bump in the Night
7th any 2cmc Spells(Searing blaze, Skullcrack, Boros charm, Magma Jet, etc.)
8th Flames of the blood Hand, Flame Javalin
9th Lightning Bolt, Shard Volley
Is it better to play Grim Lavamancer before Vexing Devil? I appreciate the fact that You can beat down with Grim on turn two, but I worry that if you wait until turn two to drop the Devil, you've given them more time to have an answer for it like Abrupt Decay or some other 2cc removal. I think I prefer to have the almost guaranteed 4 damage vs. getting greedy and trying to sneak in an extra 1 damage at potentially the cost of the 4 damage of the Devil.
Re: Esnaring Bridge vs Jund ~ it just seems unecessary, you want to kill them ASAP. They usually do quite a bit of damage to themselves, so I just try to aggro them out.
Before boarding I agree that they do a lot of damage to themselves. However, after boards I've been finding it somewhat difficult to win. They now know to conserve life points at all costs, so they usually only take 2 damage from fetch lands after boarding, since they get to take out all their useless Thoughtseizes and Dark Confidants.
I agree with you that we want to be trying to kill them asap, but it becomes difficult to race goyf + bbe/manlands when they don't damage themselves, have plenty of removal for Goblin Guide / whatever other creatures you run, and also have some lifegain thrown in. Not sure if Ensnaring Bridge is the answer since all it does is (hopefully) stall them, and if they had Abrupt Decay you Bridge just became a dead card.
One thought is playing one or two Quenchable Fire which will deal 6 damage, but four mana is a ton in this deck. Maybe the route to go is to just play Ball Lightning and force them to choose to either block with their Goyf plus take a few damage or else take 6 from one card. You just have to be careful to play it when they're tapped out.
I can't believe someone said to cut Searing Blaze, it's the best card in the deck! It's only completely dead against eggs...even in the non-ideal matchups like storm they still have Goblin Electromancer which is great for you, and tron has Wurmcoil so you can at least get 3 damage out of it. It's such a blowout in your favor when you're able to drop the second land and get their Shaman against jund - you essentially gained an extra burn spell.
Vexing Devil...I don't think anyone is entheused about running it, but since there's only so many 3-damage burn spells, for me I'm still using it. And yes, EVERY POINT MATTERS! I've lost tons of games where my opponent has ended at one life, or at 4 life so my only out was Flames. For this reason, even when Skullcrack becomes legal, I still may keep my 3 Flames in my maindeck.
Still not sure yet if I like Keldon Mauraders or Hellspark Elemental better main. At first I liked Hellspark, but now I think I'm leaning towards Mauraders.
Question: Is Ensnaring Bridge good against Jund? They *do* play Abrupt Decay, and I usually like to blank as much of their removal as possible after sb. On the other hand if they don't draw it, you win if just a few turns.
I usually board in 1-2 Rakdos Charm against Jund b/c they usually bring in 1-2 Batterskull. But I agree you definitely wouldn't want to bring in 4 of them.
What sb cards have you guys found to be most effective against Jund? I've just been bringing in 2 Volcanic Fallouts and some number of Rakdos Charm (to fight against the probable Batterskulls), but I feel like they gain way more percentage points after sb than I do.
I've been playing this deck since GP: Chicago. I made day 2 there, and finished in the top 24 of the online ptq I played in. Here's my current decklist; I like my main deck pretty well, I still don't like my sb, but all the options seem bad.
The Keldon Marauders are in the sb to help race combo/the mirror by speeding up my deck, but it's such in incremental increase I'm not sure they're worth the space.
Not sure if the Thoughtseizes are pulling their weight. They’re ok, but they never seem like a bomb. Very meh.
I think I have too many cards I'm bringing in against Twin combo. Rakdos Charm has actually been bad in that matchup, as I usually only have 1 source of black, which they'll tap, and then combo off without fear of the charm.
I don't know why I'm seeing so much hate for Flames of the Blood hand on this forum - it's a great card in the deck. Most opponents know to not go to 3 life, but are willing to go to 4 where you can get them with the Flames. That extra point of damage has been relevant quite a lot for me. I don't think I'll change even when Skullcrack comes out (or maybe I'll go to a 2/1 split in favor of Flames). But definitely playing some in the sb.
I don't *think* Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon are good sideboard cards. I could be wrong. A white or green splash for enchantment hate seems good though.
Some notes on playing the deck:
I don't like to keep 1-land hands unless I have a Goblin Guide plus a number of other 1-drop spells. Granted this deck doesn't mulligan very well, but 1-landers sans Guide rarely seem to work out well for me when I try them.
Along with that note: please don't go to 19 lands even if you aren't playing Flames. The fetchland thinning go a long way towards not drawing more lands.
You almost always want to crack a fetch on the first turn if that's an option to thin your deck. Just not if your opponent played a Deathrite Shaman.
Ha, just stumbled across this page I was just thinking that I wished there was a site where you could see all the stores' different buylist prices on a card at once, and after a little searching on google, I found this! It's really awesome; not sure how much your still working on it anymore / updating it, it seems that CapeFearGames doesn't list any of their cards from M13 or RtR, but their older cards seem fine. Thanks for doing this!
- Still don't know if B/R or B/R/W is the best version (I think B/R is best)
- Still don't know when it is correct to keep 1-land hands. Both mulling and keeping is bad.
- Don't know how many lands to play
At least I did eventually realize how awesome Deathrite Shaman is in this deck, after having my initial doubts.Too many Lightning Helix decks, combined with the extremely difficult U/R Twin matchup means I'm pretty sure I'll be playing a different deck next year.
This is baiting defined in the forum rules as trolling. Please cease. t_C
test
You were originally talking about Hellspark vs. Incinerate in the combo matchup, where yes, Hellspark is indeed like Incinerate with unearth. So...yeah, read what you actually wrote.
2 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Vexing Devil
2 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
4 Bump in the Night
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Shard Volley
1 Searing Blaze
1 Sudden Shock
3 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Rift Bolt
4 Arid Mesa
1 Blood Crypt
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
6 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Stomping Ground
sb:
1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Electrickery
2 Back to Nature
4 Rakdos Charm
3 Searing Blaze
2 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
1. Exactly what creatures are combo decks blocking Hellspark with again? If they want to block with an Electromancer to prevent 2, that's fine with me. Hellspark is virtually a guaranteed 3 damage vs. combo decks, therefore it's strictly better there.
2. Unfortunately, there's a finite number of 3 for 1s. Therefore, other options are explored.
3. Comparing Hellspark to Incinerate is nothing like comparing Spark Elemental to Lightning Bolt. Hellspark has Unearth, Spark does not. That's a huge difference. Hellspark can potentially deal 6 damage, Incinerate is capped at 3.
Huh? At worst Hellspark is the exact same as Incinerate, as they both deal 3 damage for 2 mana. But Hellspark can then deal another 3 for 2 anytime you want. Hellspark is way better against combo.
That being said, I play maindeck Keldon Mauraders in my deck, which is even better against combo. Even against other matchups like Jund, it still deals a guaranteed 2 damage, threatens to swing for 3 more, and worst case can just block a Gofy. I used to run Hellspark instead, but after many matches, I think Keldon Mauraders is better in more situations.
Is it better to play Grim Lavamancer before Vexing Devil? I appreciate the fact that You can beat down with Grim on turn two, but I worry that if you wait until turn two to drop the Devil, you've given them more time to have an answer for it like Abrupt Decay or some other 2cc removal. I think I prefer to have the almost guaranteed 4 damage vs. getting greedy and trying to sneak in an extra 1 damage at potentially the cost of the 4 damage of the Devil.
Before boarding I agree that they do a lot of damage to themselves. However, after boards I've been finding it somewhat difficult to win. They now know to conserve life points at all costs, so they usually only take 2 damage from fetch lands after boarding, since they get to take out all their useless Thoughtseizes and Dark Confidants.
I agree with you that we want to be trying to kill them asap, but it becomes difficult to race goyf + bbe/manlands when they don't damage themselves, have plenty of removal for Goblin Guide / whatever other creatures you run, and also have some lifegain thrown in. Not sure if Ensnaring Bridge is the answer since all it does is (hopefully) stall them, and if they had Abrupt Decay you Bridge just became a dead card.
One thought is playing one or two Quenchable Fire which will deal 6 damage, but four mana is a ton in this deck. Maybe the route to go is to just play Ball Lightning and force them to choose to either block with their Goyf plus take a few damage or else take 6 from one card. You just have to be careful to play it when they're tapped out.
Vexing Devil...I don't think anyone is entheused about running it, but since there's only so many 3-damage burn spells, for me I'm still using it. And yes, EVERY POINT MATTERS! I've lost tons of games where my opponent has ended at one life, or at 4 life so my only out was Flames. For this reason, even when Skullcrack becomes legal, I still may keep my 3 Flames in my maindeck.
Still not sure yet if I like Keldon Mauraders or Hellspark Elemental better main. At first I liked Hellspark, but now I think I'm leaning towards Mauraders.
Question: Is Ensnaring Bridge good against Jund? They *do* play Abrupt Decay, and I usually like to blank as much of their removal as possible after sb. On the other hand if they don't draw it, you win if just a few turns.
4 Arid Mesa
4 Blackcleave Cliffs
1 Blood Crypt
7 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
20 lands
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Vexing Devil
15 creatures
4 Bump in the Night
3 Flames of the Blood Hand
4 Lava Spike
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
2 Shard Volley
4 Searing Blaze
25 other spells
1 Grim Lavamancer
4 Rakdos Charm
2 Keldon Marauders
2 Volcanic Fallout
4 Thoughtseize
2 Spellskite
The Keldon Marauders are in the sb to help race combo/the mirror by speeding up my deck, but it's such in incremental increase I'm not sure they're worth the space.
Not sure if the Thoughtseizes are pulling their weight. They’re ok, but they never seem like a bomb. Very meh.
I think I have too many cards I'm bringing in against Twin combo. Rakdos Charm has actually been bad in that matchup, as I usually only have 1 source of black, which they'll tap, and then combo off without fear of the charm.
I don't know why I'm seeing so much hate for Flames of the Blood hand on this forum - it's a great card in the deck. Most opponents know to not go to 3 life, but are willing to go to 4 where you can get them with the Flames. That extra point of damage has been relevant quite a lot for me. I don't think I'll change even when Skullcrack comes out (or maybe I'll go to a 2/1 split in favor of Flames). But definitely playing some in the sb.
I don't *think* Ensnaring Bridge or Blood Moon are good sideboard cards. I could be wrong. A white or green splash for enchantment hate seems good though.
Some notes on playing the deck:
I don't like to keep 1-land hands unless I have a Goblin Guide plus a number of other 1-drop spells. Granted this deck doesn't mulligan very well, but 1-landers sans Guide rarely seem to work out well for me when I try them.
Along with that note: please don't go to 19 lands even if you aren't playing Flames. The fetchland thinning go a long way towards not drawing more lands.
You almost always want to crack a fetch on the first turn if that's an option to thin your deck. Just not if your opponent played a Deathrite Shaman.