Also: Anyone here testing with Smuggler's Copter? I've been testing with two but I'm wondering if the full four is better. It's a great beater and a resilient threat but:
1) Thalia makes it cost 3, and I'm running four Thalias
2) You can't Vial it in
Any further thoughts? Two Copter may be better for now.
...if I were to play the mono-White version, would that deck still be viable in a competitive arena? If I were to get really tight with the deck, would that still be enough to say, win some local GPTs, or is the deck just too weak as Mono-W, as I've heard recently?
I think Monowhite is often incorrectly perceived as being much weaker (especially in comparison to BW Eldrazi) just because the individual power level of cards is lower on average and it's much easier to remember one-big-flashy-play-that-wins-a-single-game rather than many-small-incremental-gains-that-help-win-a-number-of-matches. BW Eldrazi can produce some very strong plays relatively often, but can also fumble with its manabase and "drawing the wrong half of the deck" and lose to itself; the strength of Monowhite is its anti-fumble dependability, but you'll have fewer blow-out wins.
The fact that you're coming from Merfolk and plan to "get really tight with the deck" suggest to me that you'd be able to appreciate the many-small-gains gameplan enough to really enjoy Monowhite. (If you were coming from Merfolk-->RG Scapeshift-->D&T instead, I'd be a little more worried you were leaning into bigger/stronger/flashier gameplans and might bore of Monowhite sooner.)
Monowhite also has much more flex room for utility lands, meta-choices, and personal-preference. This can be a good thing and a bad thing: it's great if you like to tweak your lists; it's bad if you just want to jam whatever list won last week. You'll have to think a little before picking up any individual Monowhite list. Some lists count on a few strong beaters, some go wider, some go tax-heavy, some go low-tax, etc. Whatever starting-point list you choose just make sure you're playing it the way it's supposed to be played (i.e. don't play a low-tax beater list like a tax-heavy go-wide list or vice-versa).
Also, starting in Monowhite means you'll generally have more room to flex and splash. That can be especially fun each new spoiler season
TL;DR - Monowhite D&T isn't a "known-worse quantity" compared to BW Eldrazi & Taxes by any significant amount. It's just that the playstyles are a little different (Eldrazi counts on somewhat-less-dependable big plays; while Monowhite counts on many small-but-very-dependable plays).
Hey, thank-you for your constructive and thoughtful reply, I really appreciate the insight into Mono W that you've helped shed some light on. I'll stick to my guns and see what Mono W can produce for me!
My bad, I didn't mean to pigeon-hole the deck variants. It was more that I much preferred the painless and more reliable flow of consistent mana that comes with the Mono W deck; maybe it's the Merfolk player in me, but there's some charm in those single-coloured mana bases.
With that in mind, I hope I'm not restricting myself to a "known-worse quantity" of the deck because I'm choosing the OG Mono W version. Anyone here got some confidence boosters for the Mono W players?
Hi guys. I'm new to the archetype, been playing Merfolk for a while and RG Scapeshift before that. I really, really love the style of Death and Taxes but I'm not a big fan of the BW version. I know it's not very Spikey of me to say so, but I just hate the flavour and style of the Eldrazi pieces of that deck.
So my question for you all is... if I were to play the mono-White version, would that deck still be viable in a competitive arena? If I were to get really tight with the deck, would that still be enough to say, win some local GPTs, or is the deck just too weak as Mono-W, as I've heard recently?
I think the value teachings is pretty weak.
Being able to find what you need when you need it is always good, but boy does teachings make you pay for it.
Teachings tends to excel in that sweet spot where the deck is built around utilizing it, but still functions well without it.
Playing esper teachings is fine, but theres usually better use of the spot you'd fit teachings into in this deck.
If you feel that you really want to find your wincon more consistently, perhaps playing the secure version might be a better choice.
Thanks for the quick reply. Can I ask you to elaborate a little more on what you mean? How in particular does it make us "pay for it" (apart from the obvious)? I'm a newer player and I have trouble picking good/chaff cards, so if you could let me in on your thoughts a little more in-depth, that'd be great. Thank you!
Hi guys. Sorry to disrupt a topic (sideboarding etc), but I'm wondering... what is the general consensus on Mystical Teachings?
Now, I understand that Teachings is its own deck if you're going deep on the plan (Teferi, more flash creatures, etc), but what about going to, say, 3 Cryptic Commands and running a single Teachings in that slot in Esper Draw-Go? Even the corner cases of tutoring a Rev or WSZ to finish the game seem worth it, and we get two uses out of the one Teachings. Plus, tapping out on T4 for Teachings if we need to Surgical something urgently still seems good.
I would consider running a single Torrential Gearhulk in the main and Consume the Meek in the board if that's the case. Any feedback on this plan? Personally I'd love to run TWO Teachings, dropping a single Cryptic and going to 1 Negate main, what would your thoughts on this be?
For reference, here's a sample list with two Teachings, but easily switch that second Teachings for the second Negate if you think that's better:
Had a pretty dog run playing Esper Control yesterday (been playing the deck for ~ 6 mo). Worst record I've done so far. 0-4 drop. To be fair, I know I'm still very new to the deck and Magic in general (only been playing since Khans, some of you guys have been playing 20+ years!), and I've got a lot to learn, but it's hard not to feel disheartened. I feel as though many of my mistakes came down to getting greedy (tapping low vs burn, not reading the Skullcrack bluffs well). My matches were:
0-2 Griselcannon. Game 1, manage to Snare his first Vengeance, negate the second Looting, but then next turn he casts Visions + Vengeance with his last land, using SSG to pay, I Logic Knot him for 1 and he has the second SSG in his hand to get around it. Game 2 he goes balls to the wall with THREE SSGs in hand + Ritual to Breach out a Worldspine on turn 2.
0-2 Burn. Opponent seemingly always has the Atarka's Command in both games when I need to gain life. Can't keep up with her hands and I die very quickly.
1-2 Tron. Had a GQ in my opening hand all three games. Game 1 he got there with a recurring World Breaker that I just could not answer for the life of me. Game 2 we got there with Instant cats x 5. Game 3 was a crucifixion; he managed to stick a Crucible of Worlds (I honestly did not see it coming) and then he could recur Sanctum of Ugin each turn and chained Ulamog into Ulamog into Ulamog into World Breaker. I answered all three Ulamogs but I had one land left at this point and a Snapcaster doing chump duty vs. Breaker. Continue to pull dead cards off the top of my library. Concede.
0-2 Burn. Far out. What's with these matchups. Admittedly it went better than last time, but when I Rev'd for 4 and hit 4 lands, saw zero action, he eventually stuck 2 of the FOUR Eidolons he cast in a row and it was GG for me, I just had nothing going on in my hand.
I guess this is variance at play but I can't help but think I just played sloppy and got punished for it. I'm also really bad at sideboarding. I know what to bring in, but what to side out vs. Burn or Tron? Do Esper Charms stay in in both matchups? I've been told never to cut Think Twice, but is that really correct?
Hey guys. Haven't posted in this thread before. This is the RG list I'm currently on - it resembles more a midrange build than an aggro build, though it shares many of the aggressive characteristics of that particular list.
I've been really impressed by Chandra, despite some disappointments I've heard among other pilots. If you can play around opposing copters and remove them early, Chandra can stick and simply take over the game. Pia Nalaar is also an all-star, piloting the copter with ease and removing chump blockers, though we have enough trample that it won't often come down to that.
Attune with Aether and Servant of the Conduit allow us to shy up our land count, though I'm not entirely convinced that we can always get away with the light 23. It feels bad to flood out when we want to be beating face, though. I've been jumping between 23 and 24 so it would be great to get some opinions on that.
This flavour of the deck has lost some of the dominating Energy theme, but it's still an underlying plan, and we often have ample E to spend at our Hubs, Brawlers, or keeping our Hellions on the battlefield.
I'd love to get your feedback. The numbers on this list aren't final - I'm still putting in a lot of testing and tweaking the final build.
So I played RG Titanshift to a 3-1 finish at a Regular REL Modern event last night. I managed to beat Eldrazi twice out of three times, which gives me some confidence for GP Melbourne.
R1 vs UR Eldrazi
My opponent comes out of the gates quickly and beats me down to 8 on turn 3. I keep a stupidly good hand and T4 kill him with ease. He looks a little surprised that I managed to race him. Game 2 he kills me with Mimic > TKS > Smasher > Smasher and I only have a Steve to block the TKS. Game 3 he gets me again when I keep a solid hand but fail to find my third land to trigger Khalni and go off.
0-1
R2 vs Jund
I win the die roll and go turn 1 S4T, he IOKs me and takes Khalni heart. My hand is a little slower but it's not enough to stop me from comboing off on turn 5 and killing him easily. He was down to 13 life by the point due to some painful Bob flips and shock lands. Game 2 he goes Thoughtseize into IOK into IOK and rips my hand to shreds. Turn 3 I'm looking at a hand of land and a single PrimeTime. Thankfully I topdeck Explore and draw into Khalni Heart, so I go KHE and then land, fetchland, fetch it and crack the Khalni Heart, next turn PrimeTime. My 6/6 stares down his puny Tarmogoyf (4/5s) and laughs. He sits back cautiously for a few turns but he's doomed himself as PrimeTime fetches me two Valakut, attacks and finds Valakut + mountain, and then I play a land and kill him with trigger + trample damage. Game 3 is over quick as I ramp into an aggressive T4 kill and he smacks me a few times with Bob.
1-1
R3 vs UW Eldrazi
This is the deck I keep hearing good things about. I win the die roll and suspend S4T turn 1, he plays Eye, Mimic and passes. Turn 2 I play Steve and say go. He plays TKS and sees my hand of 2 Khalni Heart, 1 land, 1 PrimeTime. He takes PrimeTime. Next turn I set up KHE by playing it with my two lands, playing my fetch, cracking the fetch and then cracking Steve end of his turn (six lands in play for turn 4). I somehow topdeck a PrimeTime and windmill it down, getting two Heaths. Next turn he plays Reality Smasher and just sits there. I untap, draw Summoner's Pact, play it and find PrimeTime 2. Slam it down, get two Valakuts. Attack with PrimeTime and get two mountains, zapping him in the face. He blocks. Next turn I attack with both Titans and get 24 damage via triggers. Game 2 is a lot faster, he draws the nut and plays a couple of Mimics into next turn Exile Simian, play Reality Smasher, wreck me for 15. I go to five, draw a Steve, and concede. Game 3 I basically go perfect hand with S4T > Khalni Heart > Steve > PrimeTime on turn 4, fetch two Heaths and then Scapeshift for 54 damage next turn. He writes "-900" on his lifepad and laughs.
2-1
R4 vs UWR Eldrazi
This guy is playing the same deck (they test together) but splashing for Bolt. It seems cool but I think the mana is just too thin. He starts off strong on the play and I've mulled to and unexciting five (Land, land, land, Steve, Khalni) and scry S4T to the top. Not sure if that was correct but I knew I needed more ramp. He goes T1 temple, pass. I play land and suspend S4T. He plays T2 Eye, Endless one for 4, Mimic, Mimic. Jesus. Thankfully next turn he doesn't have another creature and "just" hits me for eight. I manage to rip Scapeshift off the top and crack open my Khalni with a fetch + Steve, passing turn with six lands in play and Shift, Land in hand. He untaps, draws, sighs, and attacks for eight again. I go to three. I untap, play my land, Scapeshift and wipe his board, pinging him for 6 in the process. He untaps, plays a Mimic, passes. I go to my turn and find Pact, get PrimeTime and fetch two more mountains, zapping him for another 6. He untaps, draws, scoops. Game 2 is a nail biter, plays much the same and I'm able to stabilise early with double PrimeTime. He starts pathing my Titans and zapping me with Bolt, comes crashing in with Smasher and TKS. I go down to 5. Untap, Summoner's Pact (seriously, seeing so many Pacts these last two rounds...) and find Baloth, gain 4. I play Steve and hope my opponent doesn't kill me. Thankfully he can't quite get the damage through, and I untap, pay for pact and then get Anger of the Gods. Anger may have been incorrect to board in but I figured, it saves me from early Mimic flood. I play Anger, getting rid of a Skyspawner and its token, a Displacer, and damaging his Smasher and TKS - then I bolt the Smasher, discarding Baloth onto the battlefield and gaining 4. He laughs as he puts Smasher in the GY, says I'm just playing on luck. He untaps and tries to get in there with TKS, I trade with a Baloth and draw a card - Scapeshift. Next turn I shift him for 36. Finish: 3-1
Had a pretty good night and I'm surprised at how well the deck holds up against Eldrazi. Sadly I didn't get to test against Affinity or Infect, but I know Infect is pretty bad for us anyway. I'm actually expecting a lot of Robots at the GP, it tends to be a super popular deck around here. I'm thinking of putting Anger in the MB as per the above list, I've always liked it in the main, and I think it's more relevant than Relic at this point in time.
Sorry about the format, I'm on mobile and not really sure how to do the whole decklist thing, but I'm sure it will all be reconisable to you:
4 Judge'a Familiar
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Flickerwisp
4 Blade Splicer
2 Restoration Angel
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Icatian Javelineers
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Fiend Hunter
4 Aether Vial
4 Path to Exile
3 Smuggler's Copter
14 Plains
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Tectonic Edge
4 Ghost Quarter
SB:
2 Rest in Peace
3 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Celestial Purge
2 Mirran Crusader
1 Wrath of God
1 Condemn
1 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1 Disenchant
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
Decks I expect in my local meta:
Infect, Deaths Shadow, Jeskai control, Tron (GW), Affinity, Burn.
1) Thalia makes it cost 3, and I'm running four Thalias
2) You can't Vial it in
Any further thoughts? Two Copter may be better for now.
Hey, thank-you for your constructive and thoughtful reply, I really appreciate the insight into Mono W that you've helped shed some light on. I'll stick to my guns and see what Mono W can produce for me!
With that in mind, I hope I'm not restricting myself to a "known-worse quantity" of the deck because I'm choosing the OG Mono W version. Anyone here got some confidence boosters for the Mono W players?
So my question for you all is... if I were to play the mono-White version, would that deck still be viable in a competitive arena? If I were to get really tight with the deck, would that still be enough to say, win some local GPTs, or is the deck just too weak as Mono-W, as I've heard recently?
Thanks for the quick reply. Can I ask you to elaborate a little more on what you mean? How in particular does it make us "pay for it" (apart from the obvious)? I'm a newer player and I have trouble picking good/chaff cards, so if you could let me in on your thoughts a little more in-depth, that'd be great. Thank you!
Now, I understand that Teachings is its own deck if you're going deep on the plan (Teferi, more flash creatures, etc), but what about going to, say, 3 Cryptic Commands and running a single Teachings in that slot in Esper Draw-Go? Even the corner cases of tutoring a Rev or WSZ to finish the game seem worth it, and we get two uses out of the one Teachings. Plus, tapping out on T4 for Teachings if we need to Surgical something urgently still seems good.
I would consider running a single Torrential Gearhulk in the main and Consume the Meek in the board if that's the case. Any feedback on this plan? Personally I'd love to run TWO Teachings, dropping a single Cryptic and going to 1 Negate main, what would your thoughts on this be?
For reference, here's a sample list with two Teachings, but easily switch that second Teachings for the second Negate if you think that's better:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/563402#paper
Had a pretty dog run playing Esper Control yesterday (been playing the deck for ~ 6 mo). Worst record I've done so far. 0-4 drop. To be fair, I know I'm still very new to the deck and Magic in general (only been playing since Khans, some of you guys have been playing 20+ years!), and I've got a lot to learn, but it's hard not to feel disheartened. I feel as though many of my mistakes came down to getting greedy (tapping low vs burn, not reading the Skullcrack bluffs well). My matches were:
0-2 Griselcannon. Game 1, manage to Snare his first Vengeance, negate the second Looting, but then next turn he casts Visions + Vengeance with his last land, using SSG to pay, I Logic Knot him for 1 and he has the second SSG in his hand to get around it. Game 2 he goes balls to the wall with THREE SSGs in hand + Ritual to Breach out a Worldspine on turn 2.
0-2 Burn. Opponent seemingly always has the Atarka's Command in both games when I need to gain life. Can't keep up with her hands and I die very quickly.
1-2 Tron. Had a GQ in my opening hand all three games. Game 1 he got there with a recurring World Breaker that I just could not answer for the life of me. Game 2 we got there with Instant cats x 5. Game 3 was a crucifixion; he managed to stick a Crucible of Worlds (I honestly did not see it coming) and then he could recur Sanctum of Ugin each turn and chained Ulamog into Ulamog into Ulamog into World Breaker. I answered all three Ulamogs but I had one land left at this point and a Snapcaster doing chump duty vs. Breaker. Continue to pull dead cards off the top of my library. Concede.
0-2 Burn. Far out. What's with these matchups. Admittedly it went better than last time, but when I Rev'd for 4 and hit 4 lands, saw zero action, he eventually stuck 2 of the FOUR Eidolons he cast in a row and it was GG for me, I just had nothing going on in my hand.
I guess this is variance at play but I can't help but think I just played sloppy and got punished for it. I'm also really bad at sideboarding. I know what to bring in, but what to side out vs. Burn or Tron? Do Esper Charms stay in in both matchups? I've been told never to cut Think Twice, but is that really correct?
Creatures
4 Servant of the Conduit
4 Sylvan Advocate
3 Tireless Tracker
1 Verdurous Gearhulk
2 Pia Nalaar
4 Voltaic Brawler
4 Lathnu Hellion
Spells
4 Attune with Aether
4 Smuggler's Copter
1 Arlinn Kord
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Harnessed Lightning
4 Mountain
4 Game Trail
4 Cinder Glade
4 Aether Hub
7 Forest
2 Nissa, Vital Force
3 Fleetwheel Cruiser
1 Bristling Hydra
2 Chandra, Flamecaller
1 Appetite for the Unnatural
2 Pulse of Murasa
4 Galvanic Bombardment
I've been really impressed by Chandra, despite some disappointments I've heard among other pilots. If you can play around opposing copters and remove them early, Chandra can stick and simply take over the game. Pia Nalaar is also an all-star, piloting the copter with ease and removing chump blockers, though we have enough trample that it won't often come down to that.
Attune with Aether and Servant of the Conduit allow us to shy up our land count, though I'm not entirely convinced that we can always get away with the light 23. It feels bad to flood out when we want to be beating face, though. I've been jumping between 23 and 24 so it would be great to get some opinions on that.
This flavour of the deck has lost some of the dominating Energy theme, but it's still an underlying plan, and we often have ample E to spend at our Hubs, Brawlers, or keeping our Hellions on the battlefield.
I'd love to get your feedback. The numbers on this list aren't final - I'm still putting in a lot of testing and tweaking the final build.
Thanks for taking the time to read.
R1 vs UR Eldrazi
My opponent comes out of the gates quickly and beats me down to 8 on turn 3. I keep a stupidly good hand and T4 kill him with ease. He looks a little surprised that I managed to race him. Game 2 he kills me with Mimic > TKS > Smasher > Smasher and I only have a Steve to block the TKS. Game 3 he gets me again when I keep a solid hand but fail to find my third land to trigger Khalni and go off.
0-1
R2 vs Jund
I win the die roll and go turn 1 S4T, he IOKs me and takes Khalni heart. My hand is a little slower but it's not enough to stop me from comboing off on turn 5 and killing him easily. He was down to 13 life by the point due to some painful Bob flips and shock lands. Game 2 he goes Thoughtseize into IOK into IOK and rips my hand to shreds. Turn 3 I'm looking at a hand of land and a single PrimeTime. Thankfully I topdeck Explore and draw into Khalni Heart, so I go KHE and then land, fetchland, fetch it and crack the Khalni Heart, next turn PrimeTime. My 6/6 stares down his puny Tarmogoyf (4/5s) and laughs. He sits back cautiously for a few turns but he's doomed himself as PrimeTime fetches me two Valakut, attacks and finds Valakut + mountain, and then I play a land and kill him with trigger + trample damage. Game 3 is over quick as I ramp into an aggressive T4 kill and he smacks me a few times with Bob.
1-1
R3 vs UW Eldrazi
This is the deck I keep hearing good things about. I win the die roll and suspend S4T turn 1, he plays Eye, Mimic and passes. Turn 2 I play Steve and say go. He plays TKS and sees my hand of 2 Khalni Heart, 1 land, 1 PrimeTime. He takes PrimeTime. Next turn I set up KHE by playing it with my two lands, playing my fetch, cracking the fetch and then cracking Steve end of his turn (six lands in play for turn 4). I somehow topdeck a PrimeTime and windmill it down, getting two Heaths. Next turn he plays Reality Smasher and just sits there. I untap, draw Summoner's Pact, play it and find PrimeTime 2. Slam it down, get two Valakuts. Attack with PrimeTime and get two mountains, zapping him in the face. He blocks. Next turn I attack with both Titans and get 24 damage via triggers. Game 2 is a lot faster, he draws the nut and plays a couple of Mimics into next turn Exile Simian, play Reality Smasher, wreck me for 15. I go to five, draw a Steve, and concede. Game 3 I basically go perfect hand with S4T > Khalni Heart > Steve > PrimeTime on turn 4, fetch two Heaths and then Scapeshift for 54 damage next turn. He writes "-900" on his lifepad and laughs.
2-1
R4 vs UWR Eldrazi
This guy is playing the same deck (they test together) but splashing for Bolt. It seems cool but I think the mana is just too thin. He starts off strong on the play and I've mulled to and unexciting five (Land, land, land, Steve, Khalni) and scry S4T to the top. Not sure if that was correct but I knew I needed more ramp. He goes T1 temple, pass. I play land and suspend S4T. He plays T2 Eye, Endless one for 4, Mimic, Mimic. Jesus. Thankfully next turn he doesn't have another creature and "just" hits me for eight. I manage to rip Scapeshift off the top and crack open my Khalni with a fetch + Steve, passing turn with six lands in play and Shift, Land in hand. He untaps, draws, sighs, and attacks for eight again. I go to three. I untap, play my land, Scapeshift and wipe his board, pinging him for 6 in the process. He untaps, plays a Mimic, passes. I go to my turn and find Pact, get PrimeTime and fetch two more mountains, zapping him for another 6. He untaps, draws, scoops. Game 2 is a nail biter, plays much the same and I'm able to stabilise early with double PrimeTime. He starts pathing my Titans and zapping me with Bolt, comes crashing in with Smasher and TKS. I go down to 5. Untap, Summoner's Pact (seriously, seeing so many Pacts these last two rounds...) and find Baloth, gain 4. I play Steve and hope my opponent doesn't kill me. Thankfully he can't quite get the damage through, and I untap, pay for pact and then get Anger of the Gods. Anger may have been incorrect to board in but I figured, it saves me from early Mimic flood. I play Anger, getting rid of a Skyspawner and its token, a Displacer, and damaging his Smasher and TKS - then I bolt the Smasher, discarding Baloth onto the battlefield and gaining 4. He laughs as he puts Smasher in the GY, says I'm just playing on luck. He untaps and tries to get in there with TKS, I trade with a Baloth and draw a card - Scapeshift. Next turn I shift him for 36.
Finish: 3-1
Had a pretty good night and I'm surprised at how well the deck holds up against Eldrazi. Sadly I didn't get to test against Affinity or Infect, but I know Infect is pretty bad for us anyway. I'm actually expecting a lot of Robots at the GP, it tends to be a super popular deck around here. I'm thinking of putting Anger in the MB as per the above list, I've always liked it in the main, and I think it's more relevant than Relic at this point in time.