MTG Salvation

11-3 at gp madrid with 8rack! good for 11th place, it was teams but my record was also 11-3



played against:
5 storm
2 titanshift
2 ur breach
2 humans
1 affinity
1 nauseam
1 sultai white shadow

so basicaly good pairings overall and got rewarded for ignoring dredge and tron

the losses where against storm, nauseam and ur breach, they are favourable but those where the rounds where i took more mulligans, missed landrops or couldnt cast spells because of mutavault

overall im happy with the list, thoughtseize is very good turns 1-2 but later in the game you cant afford the 2 life in a race or to waste mana and not making him discard a card because the 1 or 2 cards he has in hand are lands

i think 4 muta + 4 urborg its to greedy and 24 lands are to many

infernal tutor as a one of was quite good, helps a lot in topdeck mode and its fine without hellbent

4 skeins and 4 reckoning might be 1 to many because sometimes you just want 2 or 3, but the 4th copy its gold when you need to see one of them in order to win the game (white leyline, humans, etc)

i liked the list but i could see myself cutting the 3rd brutality for a packrat or something

you can watch them on the scg channel archive at twitch

https://www.twitch.tv/scgtour/videos/all

from my experience burn its very favorable

having 4 fatal push main and death shadow in the side helps

the burn player cant hold spells to burn you from 9 to 0 to avoid making the shadow big because we are playing to much discard

also being on the draw helps a lot, it denies him to many cards to even threaten lethal damage

lists from the online ptq

http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles/archive/mtgo-standings/modern-ptq-2017-04-03

2 jund in the top 4, one of them ended up winning the event

both lists without lightning bolts, maybe its the way to adapt

well done on the guide, the structure its great

why do you think merfolks its a great matchup? i strugle with it a lot, mostly because of spreading seas, mutavault and vial+harbinger. i only lost once against it but all the matches were hard mode

they are playing white for renegade rallier maindeck and lingering souls, kataki, ranger of eos sideboard

the stream comes back in an hour or so i think, but you can check the past videos in the "magic" channel at twitch, the deck was on camera a lot of times

sam black and gerry thompson went 9-0 on day one of gp vancouver with the new version! some more pros on the scg an the gp are also playing the deck. the deck will have a lot more exposure and thats somewhat bad for the people that are playing it but we will know about new techs and read some articles, so theres that

for a one drop narnam renegade its quite good

surgical extraction might not be what we need, probe was good because it didnt cost you a card and you could play it turn 1. i think trying to replace it its not the correct aproach, we are already playing the closests replacements in street wraith and mishra's bauble. i think we have to look for cheap cards that are at least a 1 for 1 and make us pay life, maybe dismember

in the delirium build i would also try to maintain the number of sorcerys, maybe add the fourth inquisition

Quote from Forestsguy »

Four Drops, Card Draw and Creatures.

Why are we not playing with four drops? I find it very weird that we are a control deck that "assumes" we won't get to turn four. Also the control deck that does not run draw (other than asylum visitor).

raven's crime and smallpox don't fit well with high cost cards

in post side boarded games some 4 mana cards can be so good that you can afford to wait on using the already mentioned cards at its full value (night of souls betrayal for example)

thanks lantern, very useful analysis.

i might drop the haunted dead for the devil, but im hesitant to drop to 20 lands. having an extra land in hand means casting loam later and using the mana to impact the board now

in regards to playing shriekhorn for curve purposes, its not because he is playing 20 lands instead of 21. its because it adds to 14 turn 1 plays, tapped lands also counts

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/frank-analysis-how-many-colored-mana-sources-do-you-need-to-consistently-cast-your-spells/

you can apply the information given in this article in the casting costs curve also

Chain Lightning would definitely not replace Lava Spike or Rift Bolt in a mono-R deck. It would replace the trash cards you're forced to play in mono-R because there's nothing else, like the couple Magma Jets and Flames of the Blood Hand or other cards that are obviously not that good. It wouldn't replace any Bolt, it would be Bolts 13-16. Even in Boros and Naya, it would replace 2CMC spells rather than replacing Bolts.

It wouldn't even be a hard decision. Drop a couple Blazes and Helices, problem solved.

Smallpox is the most powerful spell in the deck.

In my view, the start of 8-rack matches revolve around making your opponent pay dearly for keeps and decisions that are normally excellent. Have you ever played a match, looked at your first seven and thought "This hand is awesome, perfect curve!" Then your opponent casts a turn 1 thoughtseize and you ask yourself why you kept it in the first place.

Smallpox is this same feeling but much, much worse. Most opponents can't recover from losing the land, a card, and any creature they may have dumped. It's even harder after you resolve a turn 1 inquisition or thoughtseize.

It does occasionally get side boarded out though.

Quote from Xrg963 »

Quote from Lantern »

Quote from Underused Cards »

Any reason why Dredge doesn't run a single Unburial Rites and some big reanimator target or even Flame-Kin Zealot? They do tend to get to 4 lands. Just win more?

Rally does it better. Not enough stuff to get haste. With bridge haste would be worth it, but bridge is unreliable in modern.

Least thats my thought process. Conflag/rally/scourge all sorta share the same deck space, and conflag (with maybe one rally/scourge) does the "end the game" job, which can range from direct damage, or wiping the board.

Would 2x Rally the Peasants be correct? Or is it too many?

I dont think so sans like... runing bridge and around 2ish haunted dead. Its seriously just there as a toolbox I win button, you dont really need to win twice, plus by that point you should have been able to conflag, dredge loam, loam, rally, then dredge loam, loam, and have enough for a second conflag.

I'm not underselling rally/scorge. They do the job, but I dont think you need more than one when we are able to mill so effectively.

On a side note... saw the avatar. I cosplayed as Bob and Temmie with my girlfriend at dragon con. She was in a wheelchair, so I built her a tem shop to be in. I don't normally do "cute" costumes, but it was surprisingly fun.

Back on Dredge: Only 2 dredges at the top 64 at the GP, but 8 in the top 100. Heres the lists:





Lets look at some points shall we?

Both lists run 20 lands, all of which are fetch mana base, 2 dakmor. I think that puts that to bed, thats what we should be doing. Now, one thing to note in the mana is 6 fetchs vs 8, and one runs a basic forest. I have always leaned on the basic forest camp, but thats just me. Worth noting, BBD lost to Skred red in the top 8, which is a bad matchup for dredge. I kinda think he had a solid shot to take 1st place if he was paired differently... but at the same point kinda glad he didnt because JESUS WAS THE DREDGE HATE HARD FOR THIS EVENT. But if anythings getting banned off this event its infect, not us. thank god.

Back to my point... he lost against a blood moon anger deck. You know the basic forest probably was wanted there.

Creatures. They all do the same thing, not run haunted dead. With a large sucide zoo and infect presence, Im suprised by that, but cant argue the results here.

Spells. Nothing too crazy, but instead of rally they are running devil, which they state they do because of removal spells and recurring amagamates. To paraphrase them they said:

Rally is a better spell when you are winning the game. If you have all of these creatures out, you can win that turn probably, but you'll probably win the next turn anyways. Scourge devil is the better card when you are behind, because it lets you get in for 4 Plus damage while recurring amalgamates to win.

What do you all think about this? Its an unusual defense for it, but could be solid. The reason I switched from rally over devil (if you go back in my posts, I used it for a while stating it was better vs anger of the gods.) was because anytime I casted scourge I was like 2 points off the kill on that turn, but I never thought of it as a reset button. Then again, haunted dead can also do that. This among the sideboard is really what we should talk about.

They also use one shriekhorn, again, they say for mana curve reasons. I still dont buy into it... but I run 21 lands, if I cut a land for a horn, I am "lowering my mana curve" helping to justify the 20 lands... So I can see it.

Sideboard is where the decks do differ alot. BBD went low, probably too low, on the grudges... but it actually paid off because there wasnt a single copy of affinity in the top 64. Thats not a normal thing btw, thats a first for modern in its full history. Both use Vengeful Pharaoh, which we all know is there for the jund/junk/eldrazi matchups, bbd going hard into it. One uses bog, the other leyline, both are valid options, Id rather use bog since I dont wanna take 4 slots for the mirror. Again, BBDs sideboard was way better for this event, since the dredge count was only 2 in top 64, so he had more space for the stuff that did show up.

I think BBD went a little low on brutality, but 2 darkblasts must have helpped against the stupidness that was 11% of the day 2 meta that was infect, the 36% that was the top 8. Shesh. Skred red was perfect for this GP. They both went Hard in the nature's claim department. Gotta assume its for leylines. Which brings me to the next step of our analysis...

What did people play vs us?
Heres the deal. 64 top spots means sides can pack 256 copies of a card to hate on us. No sane deck will run more than 5 cards of grave hate (1/3rd of their sideboard) to hate on us. So well use that number (256) as the average amount of sideboard hate people have vs us out of the whole top 64 placing decks. Its a bit of an assumption... but a safe one, and lets us see how much sideboard hate people played. If its total over 256, it was clearly unfriendly to dredge, if it was way under and people only sided 1-2 peices, it was soft. This is necessary for dredge to look at. We also need to see what people are using, so we can template our sides correctly.

Bold means in the main
Rest in Peace: 2+1+2+2+2+3 (12)
Grafdiggers cage: 1+2+1+2+1+3+2+1+4+2+2+1+2+2+2+1+1+2+1+3+3+3+1+1+2+2=2 (50)
Ravenous Trap: 2+2+1+2+2(9)
Surgical Extraction :2+2+2+3+2+2+1+1+2+2+2+3+2 (26)
Savaging Ooze: 4+3+2+2+3+1+3+2+2+3+2+2+1+2+1+1+1+1+2 (34)38
Anger of the Gods: 3+2+2+3+1+1+2+3+3+2+2+3+1+2+1+1+2+2+2+1+1+1+1+1 (23)43
Leyline of the Void: 4+3+3+3+4 (17)
Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet: 2+2+11+1 (2)7
Relic of Progenitus: 4+4+42+1+1+1+2 (7)19
Anafenza, the Foremost1+1+1+1+1 (2)5
Crypt Incursion: 1 (1)
Tormad's Crypt: 0 (0)
Rakdos Charm: 3+2+1 (6)
Loaming Shaman: 1 (1)
Faerie Macabre 3 (0)3
Bojuka Bog: 3 (3)

Our total is 184 cards in the side for us, and 231 between side and main. That gives us an average of 3.6 hate cards per deck. Thats still on the high number, as 3 or lower is the number we prefer. So, thats pretty telling. Heres some more raw data, because I know you love me for it.


Top 5 % used were:
Grafdiggers cage-22%
anger of the gods- 19%
scavaging ooze- 16%
extraction- 11%
relic-8%
Bonus: other-23%

Heres a big new indicator. almost any deck running snaps have gone UP on extraction and DOWN on Rest in peace. To me this is a clear "run 2-3 collective brutality" since that hits anger, a turn 2 ooze, and extraction. Maybe the need for natures claim is a little overblown, as while it does hit cage at the number 1 spot, leyline is the number 6 card at less than 7%. I duno. its still one mana and safer, so maybe tossing out a few decays for it is the correct call too. Or golgari charm... Since it kills infect critters, anger, RiP and Leyline.

Also not in the raw data, but noticed while I was taking the numbers. RDW/burn have switched to running rakdos charm. Keep it in mind.

Quote from Esperino »

Hey 8Rack folk! I created a Discord server for the community. You can use it as a messenger or hop in voice chat channels to interact with other members of the 8Rack community! The discussion is not limited to 8Rack of course, but it is a dedicated place where users who are interested in the strategy can talk to each other with the push of a button, it's as simple as that.

Why did I setup this server? To put it really simply, voice communication is so much more powerful than written text. Writing opinions on forums only goes so far to convey what you mean, but often times talking to people you will realise they are a lot more understanding than you'd give them credit. It's a great way for people who share an interest to bond and develop friendly relationships where they normally wouldn't. I hope we can keep the discussion civil and that everybody is treated with respect.

You can join through this link (should work, please let me know if it doesn't).

Please not that you will need a Discord account with a verified e-mail to join.

Personally, I don't think this falls under "promotion of content" for several reasons - first, it's technically not "content". Second, I'm trying to develop the 8Rack community to make it more cohesive and reduce toxicity. I am not advertising Discord (a third-party software) and not in any way associated with them, simply using it as a means to an end. If you think this post violates the Terms of Service and the Forum Rules, please let me know and I will take it down immediately. It's definitely not promotion of illegal activity and the intent is not to be any attempt of solicitation. Apologies if it breaks the rules in any way.

I think its great that's you're open to listen to opinions on other cards; that's certainly going to be great for your growth as a player, but I just want to say that this wasn't the point of the criticism earlier.

We're not critical of your perspective of Pack Rat or any other card. Heck no, you're allowed to strongly dislike, or even hate certain cards. That's perfectly fine. The Discord discussion may result in you changing your mind, it might not. But it doesn't change what we *are* critical about- the primer.

The primer contains your perspective, which as you have pointed out, is unavoidable. But it has to be made as neutral as you possibly can, based on facts. When the primer describes smallpox it has to describe it as a proven card, not as a bad card. Because its proven in *fact* but its bad in *perspective*. You can have a chapter called "Author's Opinions" where you use your theory to hammer down on cards you dislike. But statements putting down time-proven cards should not be in the primer.

So one last time for emphasis:

1. Nobody is upset that you personally dislike smallpox / pat rack.
2. Nobody is committed to make you change your perspective.
3. Nobody is even saying you can't express said dislikes.

But we just want the primer to not be a personal opinion.

Yes, this mantle you've taken up is heavy. Its a lot of work, the formatting and the updating. One of the perks is that you have the exposure to bring up experiments brews more than the average poster. The exposure is also a responsibility: new players, new-ish players will come here looking to emulate successful decks - they will receive information that conflicts with reality. They will see smallpoxes in top8s, they will see it listed as a bad card here. That's an issue that's far removed from whether the author of a primer thinks a card is bad or not.

I hope you understand where I'm coming from.

Hey 8Rack folk! I created a Discord server for the community. You can use it as a messenger or hop in voice chat channels to interact with other members of the 8Rack community! The discussion is not limited to 8Rack of course, but it is a dedicated place where users who are interested in the strategy can talk to each other with the push of a button, it's as simple as that.

Why did I setup this server? To put it really simply, voice communication is so much more powerful than written text. Writing opinions on forums only goes so far to convey what you mean, but often times talking to people you will realise they are a lot more understanding than you'd give them credit. It's a great way for people who share an interest to bond and develop friendly relationships where they normally wouldn't. I hope we can keep the discussion civil and that everybody is treated with respect.

You can join through this link (should work, please let me know if it doesn't).

Please not that you will need a Discord account with a verified e-mail to join.

Quote from Esperino »

A round of Primer updates! I am happy to bring you a few improvements to the primer. The dreaded section that tells people the truth about Pack Rat and Smallpox has been removed and I want to talk a little bit about why. I'll put it in a spoiler below to not distract the majority who don't give a damn and wouldn't read it anyway. Other than that, the "community spotlight" section got updated with new decklists. This time around I am featuring Timba's XMage Jesus deck (if there are any updates to the list please let me know) and FearDReaper's Mentor list. I'm going to put his/Memory's Myth decks there too, but I want a little more other than first impressions. Meanwhile, the removed section of the forum has been replaced by a new piece called "Card evaluation theory". It's oriented towards new players and is highly experimental at this stage, but basically it's a card rating model. I was planning on running an entire 8Rack build through it as an example, but I got lazy (raise the pitchforks!) and just did the core + the racks as a counterpoint. I know it's not a perfect model (yet), but do let me know what you think.

Next up is the poll. With a lot more votes than anticipated and the community's choice being one I like, I will be closing the poll and starting right away with updating each decklist with it's own visual spoiler. I'll put another feedback poll on those after they've been made, but because each one requires some editing and fiddling to turn into the picture you see, this feature will arrive late Monday/early Tuesday (european time). Even without the poll being up, don't hesitate to leave feedback on the existing one - do you even want that at all, is it too big, too small, etc. Along with the visual spoilers, the decklists withing the Primer will be updated too. A lot of people don't understand that there is a lot of experimental stuff there. I have cleaned them up and will ship the updates rather soon. Whether you like it or not, the BR (Mardu!) list is going to stay as I still haven't had more success with any other version. After that's done I will be moving to another experimental project - BG 8Rack and most of my playtesting is going to be concentrated there.

Alright, now let's address something at peace. The section about Pack Rat and Smallpox has always been intended as a section dedicated to help players who are new to the game or strategy and aid them in the deckbuilding process. A lot of people are salty that cards they like and think are good were put there as examples of how to not build a deck, but at the end of the day that's the truth and I don't feel bad about it. Communicating that in a clear way, on the other hand, was a problem. Since a lot of the newcomers are either from Rob's YouTube channel or had their first exposure to the deck at the hands of Tom Ross, they come in and think that because they play them they shouldn't be there. Which, objectively, is not the case at all. Tom Ross was playing Sceptre of Fugue, too, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

The real problem I had with that piece is that it wasn't well written. I would never take something down because of a few cancerous comments or because a couple of people didn't like it. After all, that type of content is something I want to eventually have on the Primer. But now that I have a better idea that still accomplishes the goal of aiding new players, I am gladly taking it down for something that I'm more excited for. It will make it's way back into the primer but in a better way. When it's a completed product I'm sure this content will fit nicely somewhere, but now was not the time and that was not the place for it. What keeps me reassured is that I've already given Smallpox a separate space and that no real Modern player who picks up 8Rack is going to say "hey look, let me see if Pack Rat, of all things, works in here". That's just not a thing people do in Modern. All in all I'm personally happy with the change and am looking forward to refining the card rating system and posting a more complete version of it in the near future.

People are pissed at you for good reasons, basically whatever opinions which go against you are cancerous. Sorry i don't think you are fit enough to be the author of this primer. You are too opinionated, you have an ego issue. I don't know what is your issue with smallpox and pack rats, they have proven to be decent. Tom Ross put up results with a smallpox variant, its good i tested it, but i prefer the bridge version, but i won't be nasty and tell new players that pack rats and smallpoxes are bad even after removing the section you are still bitter about it. Anyway what happened to memory lapse's stock list?

When you write a primer its not about your opinion only. It's about putting in what had been proven to work. Deck lists that put up results, past/stock deck list which performed, the real core deck which play bridges and another core variant which plays smallpox, new cards to consider etc, not do things like put some blue splash which you replace the stock list with and promote your BR list. You always feel that things that you can't agree with is always wrong and cancerous that you are always right? How are you suppose to write a primer with these kind of mindset? Shouldn't name this 8rack primer an 8rack primer, should name it Esprino's rack primer, because its all about your opinion pushing and promoting your BR version, while you unwillingly succumb to putting Tom Ross's list or any thing which you can't accept after people have to tell you repeatedly with pitch forks.

If i have friends/family who are interested in building 8rack. I'll ask them to refer to tom ross's lists or the old primer. Anyway there isn't even a budget decklist for new players, maybe you should create a section for that instead of promoting your opinions which pisses people off.

This primer post is HILARIOUS. The primer writer is handing out "correct", "incorrect", "wrong" like he's the leading authority, the top player, the know it all of the deck.

Every other post he makes is telling somebody they're wrong. And of course, every card he posts is correct, its the best. But it went to whole other level with the reply:

Lists with big results dont support 'Core postulate'

Imagine how much better they would've done if they did.

What? WHAT?! So lists that put up results could have done better if they'd used your core, let m-let me get this right. And the reason your cards haven't put up results? I'm guessing just because nobody's tried them yet? Or nobody knows how to use them but you?

Passing off opinion as fact again in your "real talk" spoiler, and here I thought we'd made progress towards an objective and factual primer, but nope: "truth", "how not to build a deck", you claim the issue here isn't that you placed an _opinion_ inside a primer piece, but how you "communicated a fact". Let me make this point clear once and for all to all 8rack players Esperino's saying that smallpox and pack rat are "bad cards" is an OPINION. That Tom Ross would have done better if he had played Esperino's list is an OPINION. That Tom Ross put up results with a smallpox list is FACT. That Pack Rat can single handedly win topdeck games is also a FACT.

What's most ironic is that fact-based postulations are written off by the primer writer as "cancerous". No, statements that pass off one's OPINION as FACT to put down other perspectives and worse, suppress discussion that falls outside of Esperino's perspective is the real cancer.

Quote from Esperino »

A round of Primer updates! I am happy to bring you a few improvements to the primer. The dreaded section that tells people the truth about Pack Rat and Smallpox has been removed and I want to talk a little bit about why. I'll put it in a spoiler below to not distract the majority who don't give a damn and wouldn't read it anyway. Other than that, the "community spotlight" section got updated with new decklists. This time around I am featuring Timba's XMage Jesus deck (if there are any updates to the list please let me know) and FearDReaper's Mentor list. I'm going to put his/Memory's Myth decks there too, but I want a little more other than first impressions. Meanwhile, the removed section of the forum has been replaced by a new piece called "Card evaluation theory". It's oriented towards new players and is highly experimental at this stage, but basically it's a card rating model. I was planning on running an entire 8Rack build through it as an example, but I got lazy (raise the pitchforks!) and just did the core + the racks as a counterpoint. I know it's not a perfect model (yet), but do let me know what you think.

Next up is the poll. With a lot more votes than anticipated and the community's choice being one I like, I will be closing the poll and starting right away with updating each decklist with it's own visual spoiler. I'll put another feedback poll on those after they've been made, but because each one requires some editing and fiddling to turn into the picture you see, this feature will arrive late Monday/early Tuesday (european time). Even without the poll being up, don't hesitate to leave feedback on the existing one - do you even want that at all, is it too big, too small, etc. Along with the visual spoilers, the decklists withing the Primer will be updated too. A lot of people don't understand that there is a lot of experimental stuff there. I have cleaned them up and will ship the updates rather soon. Whether you like it or not, the BR (Mardu!) list is going to stay as I still haven't had more success with any other version. After that's done I will be moving to another experimental project - BG 8Rack and most of my playtesting is going to be concentrated there.

Alright, now let's address something at peace. The section about Pack Rat and Smallpox has always been intended as a section dedicated to help players who are new to the game or strategy and aid them in the deckbuilding process. A lot of people are salty that cards they like and think are good were put there as examples of how to not build a deck, but at the end of the day that's the truth and I don't feel bad about it. Communicating that in a clear way, on the other hand, was a problem. Since a lot of the newcomers are either from Rob's YouTube channel or had their first exposure to the deck at the hands of Tom Ross, they come in and think that because they play them they shouldn't be there. Which, objectively, is not the case at all. Tom Ross was playing Sceptre of Fugue, too, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything.

The real problem I had with that piece is that it wasn't well written. I would never take something down because of a few cancerous comments or because a couple of people didn't like it. After all, that type of content is something I want to eventually have on the Primer. But now that I have a better idea that still accomplishes the goal of aiding new players, I am gladly taking it down for something that I'm more excited for. It will make it's way back into the primer but in a better way. When it's a completed product I'm sure this content will fit nicely somewhere, but now was not the time and that was not the place for it. What keeps me reassured is that I've already given Smallpox a separate space and that no real Modern player who picks up 8Rack is going to say "hey look, let me see if Pack Rat, of all things, works in here". That's just not a thing people do in Modern. All in all I'm personally happy with the change and am looking forward to refining the card rating system and posting a more complete version of it in the near future.

Current primer issues:
Exemplary decklist has an error
Sideboard guide is for a missing list with Pack Rats and Bridges
Lists with big results dont support 'Core postulate'
No results mentioned for exemplary lists. In my opinion they have a lot of issues. I wrote my commentary on mardu list as example but I forgot to mention it also lacked mana sinks
Sideboard examples. Going to hate specific matchups and forget about others is not a good strategy. Thats my opinion and PVDR's as he recently wrote in his series of articles about sideboarding. Transformational sideboarding is changing your game strategy or wincons. Siding in specific hate is not a transformational sideboarding.
Card evaluation theory is .. subjective and not helpful. Power level depends on number of copies I play? If I want to get power level of Funeral Charm for example, where do I get numbers? Call you?)
Missing parts
Ari Lax made a video, not an article
Super IQ win is missing in results section. This deck doesnt have many big finishes (2), why not post all of them?

Btw in my opinion having 1-2 Flaying Tendrils in the sideboard is very important for non-red variants, it is not mentioned in the primer