Tested out Shefet Dunes like @Chalupacabra suggested, it's pretty solid. The life loss off it was pretty marginal, and the threat of a team pump for very little warping of the mana base was great. Also, if you're running Sea Gate Wreckage, it gives you additional ways of activating it so you don't need to worry about keeping an extra GQ or Tec Edge around
I also think Scavenger Grounds could be worthwhile, but if we also want to run playsets of GQ and Tec Edge, we're starting to run a bit low on colored sources. I've also got Wreckage in my list which compounds that problem. I don't think the turn 3 thing is much to worry about however, because there's alot of upside even if it's not incredibly fast. It can make a Snapcaster play tricky, neuter a medium speed hand from Dredge, shrink Goyfs, disrupt Storm, etc. And all of that is good beyond turn 3
How deep would you try to mulligan to a piece of graveyard hate against Dredge post-board? I brought in 5 pieces last night (2 RIP, 2 Relic, 1 Cage), was on the draw game three, and mulled down to 4 without seeing one before I decided to play a hand with land, land, creature, path. I obviously lost, but should I have mulled to 3 in that situation? The math probably says I should have (I was thinking it was a similar situation to Bazaar of Baghdad in Vintage Dredge where they mull to oblivion to get their Bazaar)
Hey guys I've been playing delver for awhile now and this is the list that has gotten good results at my LGS. Unfortunately due to the lack of larger tournaments I haven't had time to test the list out in a more open field but the weekly events that I go to have a wide variety of decks from tier one and on.
List looks pretty solid, you're running your removal suite exactly the same as me; I'm a huge fan of the 3-3-3-3 split for Push-Snare-Terminate-Leak, as well as the maindeck Deprive. You could probably cut a fetch for a fastland (Darkslick is probably slightly better with your shell), although I get the extra fetches due to the additional Gurmag over a Tasigur.
SB also seems fine, the only comment is that I would prefer Anger of the Gods over Kozilek's Return. Anger is way better against Dredge, and you need all the help you can get in that matchup
A note with Blood Moon: if you're playing with it, or suspect that you're playing against it, you want to prioritize fetching your basic swamp before your basic island (generally). The reason being is that your higher impact cards--the delve creatures, Terminate, Push, Kcommand--are the ones that you'll need to close out the game, and they all obviously need black. It's much harder to close out a game where a Blood Moon has landed if you don't have access to black mana. There are obviously times where the island will be better, but I've found in general it's safer to prioritize getting the Swamp first
I've got alot of Bant Eldrazi in my local meta, so that's why you see the Damnation and Go for the Throat. GFTT is a better option than Murderous Cut in my opinion because Cut is terrible against any white deck post-board if they manage to land a Rest in Peace. I would like to find room for a second Staticaster because it's great in alot of matchups, especially Dredge and Abzan
Hi all, I've been on Delver for a LONG time now. I've recently cut DS from my main and am considering a few alternatives. Side note, DS used to be in my SB a back when burn was way more prevalent; after the Probe ban, I cut YP & decided to just run DS in the main. I'm finding now that although my list takes a lot of land damage combined with the meta, it's not enough to keep that card in the main. Anyway, I'll post my list here for reference and feedback.
The Crumbles may look odd, but my last GPT I went to my only 2 losses were to the same guy playing Valakut in the first round and in the top 8. There were several Tron and Eldrazi Tron players at that event as well. I used to have 2 GQ there, but they never worked out. Crumble can flip Delver and saves me from having to board in both GQ & Surgical for the same effect. Those match-ups are also why Dreadbore has made it into my main.
@PurpleIntet: As you can see, I run Deprive in my main as well. It's GAS! Nice trick that it also triggers Revolt for Push.
I can definitely say that Deprive helps the Tron matchups of various flavors a ton. And yea the Push interaction is also great, I've had that come up a couple of times for a huge in game swing.
Wouldn't Blood Moon be a bit more effective than Crumble? It still deals with Valakut quite nicely, but then also gives some good options against Tron and Shadow variants, as well as Bant Eldrazi. Also, where do you bring in Ashiok?
After playing a ton of games with Grixis Shadow and comparing to my normal Grixis Delver deck, I definitely prefer the play style of straight Grixis Delver. It has more trouble with Tron than Shadow, but Delver has serious game against other Shadow varients, Storm, Company, etc. If you tune your sideboard mostly for Dredge and Tron variants, Delver is still quite formidable in this metagame.
Also, I've been running Deprive as a 1-of in the main, and it's been an ALL STAR. Would highly recommend
What do you guys think about running 2 death's shadow instead of the young pyromancers? It's been working really well for me lately (I don't even run thoughtseize a or anything to lose life aside from manabase)
I've done this in the past with pretty good success, it's definitely worth looking at
Agrees about Anger of the Gods or Pyroclasm type cards against abzhan company. Surgical extraction is helpful too. I have played grixis delver for a few years and was concerned when gitprobe got banned. But have discovered fatal push is worth it with some number of spell snare and discard, especially with the surgical extraction. I've def beat all the popular type decks at least once. The only decks that gave me problems were Lantern Control and Amulet Bloom. Young Peezy to the SB, run 4 Snapcasters, 4 Delver, 2 Tasigur, 2 Anglers now 12 creature count also thoughts on going to 20 lands to add a fetch to help with the fatal push? Also Agony Warp garbage or what?
Personally I want my two-mana kill spell to be as universal as possible; most of the time Agony Warp is just going to be an overcosted Bolt that can only hit creatures. No need to play it when we have Bolt, Push, and Terminate available. Also, I feel pretty strongly that 20 lands is where you want to be
The mana base is a little less than perfect because I'm missing a couple of fetchlands, but I do feel like 8 fetches and 20 lands total is good. The maindeck Censor was a test this week. I wasn't hugely impressed by it, I think I'm going to either run a Deprive or a Cut // Ribbons in its place moving forward. Also considering dropping the Painful Truths for a second Thoughtseize in the board. I've been loving the 3-3-3-3 split of removal/counters (excluding Bolt) in the main deck; the third Terminiate in particular really helps diversify your removal suite.
This was my thought process for the board: our weakest matchups are Tron variants, Bant Eldrazi, Dredge, and Abzan (because of Lingering Souls). We are good to great against almost every other deck in the field, so I wanted the sideboard to mostly help those 4 matchups while having some versatility elsewhere.
Blood Moon feels like the best way to address the Tron and Eldrazi matchups at the same time. While running land destruction plus Surgical is good against Tron, it's not particularly effective against Bant Eldrazi or Eldrazi Tron. Blood Moon gives you game in all 3 of those matchups. Ceremonious Rejection also pulls a ton of weight against all of those strategies, while also having some nice use against Affinity and Lantern.
Surgical is super versatile and can come in for alot of matchups. It's obviously excellent against Dredge, but it's also one of our best answers to Lingering Souls. Staticaster fills a similar role in that it shines in both of those matchups.
Damnation, Painful Truths, and Go for the Throat gives us some additional percentage points against midrange and Bant Eldrazi. Brutality is a swiss army knife and can be brought in for a bunch of general matchups.
The only one I'm still on the fence about is Thoughtseize; it might be better off as a second Staticaster
I've been puzzling with my sideboard but a lot of possible cards seem meta call, if someone with some experience on these cards/matters could elaborate that would be swell:
1. Leyline of Sanctity. I only see this being usefull vs BGx and Burn. Hardly seems worth it vs the mirror for instance although it hinders AD Nauseum and forces them to have the Maniac wincon. Seems like a meta choice, thoughts?
2. Why are some playing Dispel over Swan Song? Swan seems superior especially vs Burn cause of Eidolon. Is the 2/2 really that much of a problem?
3. Bounce or artifact hate. Some lists I see have Echoing/Repeals and others only have the Vandalblasts/Shattering Spree. Apart gron the usual suspect Affinity why would we prefer arti destroy so much over bounce. I get that Grafdigger is an issue but is that enough to warrant it all?
Thanks in advance
1 - I've never liked Leyline Of Sanctity, mull to 6 or to 5 to find it it's not a good idea, you will have a weak hand and you'll die to Liliana Of The Veil or Eidolon Of The Great Revel. And if you don't see it in your opening hand and you keep, you'll have 3 dead draws in your deck, and when you're facing a deck like Jund/Abzan you can't afford a dead draw.
2 - A 2/2 flyer it's a great gift for your opponent. Against Eidolon Of The Great Revel you have to kill him with Lightning Bolt or bounce it with Echoing Truth. Dispel is useful against burn spells, counters and Ad Nauseam. The 99% of times you will be okay with Dispel, you can't give them a 2/2 flyer for the 1% of times that Swan Song would be better (against Scapeshift maybe?)
So why Echoing Truth insted of running Wear/Tear? The reason is that you can also use Echoing Truth to bounce a creature if you don't find a Lightning Bolt so it's will never be a dead card in hand. Now our boogeyman : Chalice Of The Void with 2 counters! Here I prefer to run Shattering Spree. It can hit multiple Chalices, we can use it against Affinity like a Shatterstorm effect and it cost just 1 red mana. I've seen that someone plays Repeal against Chalice Of The Void, sure it's an option...but against Affinity it's not so good, and against a piece of hate like a Leyline, etc you will pay 5 mana that's too much.
All 3 can break a Chalice on 2, and only Vandalblast can't get past a Chalice on 1 and 2. However, one of the biggest reasons I like this package is that you can Gifts for it in other artifact heavy matchups and get a virtually guaranteed artifact sweeper in your hand. It gives you a bit more game against Affinity, Lantern, etc. Running it alongside Echoing Truth gives you a myriad of options for breaking lock pieces
I've been testing a one-of Cut // Ribbons in the deck, and it's actually pretty good. Even though it's a weak Roast on one side, it is very good if you mill it with scour as a late game reach spell, as well as a good Snap target if you really need some additional removal late game. Still a bit weak against other delve creatures, but it can kill a good majority of creatures early and then give you some fine late-game options. Curious if anyone else has tried it out
I'm going to argue that this deck is NOT mainly an aggressive deck. Grixis Delver in Modern is, in my opinion, one of the best examples of recognizing your role in a matchup. For example, you will lose to a control deck quite often if you try to rush your Tasigur out turn 2 into unprotected removal, but sometimes the turn 2 Tasigur is the only way to beat a Scapeshift or Tron player because you need to race them. Especially in this iteration of Delver (now that Probe is gone), you need to be able to recognize when you can sit back. You will always have at least some late game because we are a Snapcaster Mage deck at heart, and we can grind very well.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there are some matchups you absolutely want to be going turn 1 or turn 2 threat in order to have a chance. But there's also a good amount of matchups where you need to be the control and pace yourself, and so the aggressive strategy is not optimal
This is overdoing it.
The deck has a tempo/midrange strategy, that can be prolonged in a more controlling one when needed. Fine, pretty much all the non-combo, non-control decks do that. It doesn't change that Grixis Delver, against most opponents, HAS to take the proactive role. Look at the tiers: Tron, Eldrazi Tron, Bant Eldrazi, Ad Nauseam, UR Storm, Valakut, Chord/Company, Infect, Affinity, etc... against all of those, it's very important to stick a threat while controlling the board/play the permission game. There are other against whom you have to shift gears. Fine. But you can't deny that it is primarly built to "go under" these strategies.
That means, if you want to shift gears, you need to be able to play both kind of games. The tempo one and the midrangey one. If you drop Tasigurs for Cryptic Serpent, then, you're basically giving up on one of the two.
I'm not promoting using Cryptic Serpent, I don't think it's where we want to be either. I was more making a comment about the archetype in general.
I think it's pretty hard to argue that you're trying to "go under" Affinity or Infect, as that is literally the definition of what those decks are doing to us (and they do it much better). All the other matchups you listed you are totally correct in saying you need to be proactive in, as those strategies have more inevitability late game than we do, either through combo or just greater power level. It's the matchups you didn't mention where the controlling/protecting roles become more apparent: Jund, Abzan, Death's Shadow variants, Jeskai control, UW control, Merfolk, etc. If you try to "go under" any of these strategies, you'll not have as much success.
I'm a novice to this deck so I was just kinda spitballing. I mean while dropping either Tas or Angler, you lose all those cards in your yard. A good portion of which are viable SCM targets. With CS and as Marcwizard pointed out, bedlam reveler, those sorceries and instants stay available. Of course angler and Tas make use of cracked fetches which CS does not. Thanks for the info.
This is mainly an aggressive deck. You want to stick a threat as soon as possible, and start to race the opponent while restraining his plays thanks to cheap counters and interactions. It's extremely crucial being able to deploy a turn1 Delver or a turn2 Delve Fatty to accomplish in this strategy. You don't really care about the cards in your grave (Snap always have a target, and less cards in the grave also mean a better selection on Tasigur's ability).
I'm going to argue that this deck is NOT mainly an aggressive deck. Grixis Delver in Modern is, in my opinion, one of the best examples of recognizing your role in a matchup. For example, you will lose to a control deck quite often if you try to rush your Tasigur out turn 2 into unprotected removal, but sometimes the turn 2 Tasigur is the only way to beat a Scapeshift or Tron player because you need to race them. Especially in this iteration of Delver (now that Probe is gone), you need to be able to recognize when you can sit back. You will always have at least some late game because we are a Snapcaster Mage deck at heart, and we can grind very well.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there are some matchups you absolutely want to be going turn 1 or turn 2 threat in order to have a chance. But there's also a good amount of matchups where you need to be the control and pace yourself, and so the aggressive strategy is not optimal
I also think Scavenger Grounds could be worthwhile, but if we also want to run playsets of GQ and Tec Edge, we're starting to run a bit low on colored sources. I've also got Wreckage in my list which compounds that problem. I don't think the turn 3 thing is much to worry about however, because there's alot of upside even if it's not incredibly fast. It can make a Snapcaster play tricky, neuter a medium speed hand from Dredge, shrink Goyfs, disrupt Storm, etc. And all of that is good beyond turn 3
List looks pretty solid, you're running your removal suite exactly the same as me; I'm a huge fan of the 3-3-3-3 split for Push-Snare-Terminate-Leak, as well as the maindeck Deprive. You could probably cut a fetch for a fastland (Darkslick is probably slightly better with your shell), although I get the extra fetches due to the additional Gurmag over a Tasigur.
SB also seems fine, the only comment is that I would prefer Anger of the Gods over Kozilek's Return. Anger is way better against Dredge, and you need all the help you can get in that matchup
Here's what I'm running currently
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
1 Deprive
2 Kolaghan's Command
4 Polluted Delta
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Countersquall
1 Dispel
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Blood Moon
2 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Damnation
1 Go for the Throat
I've got alot of Bant Eldrazi in my local meta, so that's why you see the Damnation and Go for the Throat. GFTT is a better option than Murderous Cut in my opinion because Cut is terrible against any white deck post-board if they manage to land a Rest in Peace. I would like to find room for a second Staticaster because it's great in alot of matchups, especially Dredge and Abzan
I can definitely say that Deprive helps the Tron matchups of various flavors a ton. And yea the Push interaction is also great, I've had that come up a couple of times for a huge in game swing.
Wouldn't Blood Moon be a bit more effective than Crumble? It still deals with Valakut quite nicely, but then also gives some good options against Tron and Shadow variants, as well as Bant Eldrazi. Also, where do you bring in Ashiok?
Also, I've been running Deprive as a 1-of in the main, and it's been an ALL STAR. Would highly recommend
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Fatal Push
3 Terminate
3 Mana Leak
3 Spell Snare
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Censor
3 Polluted Delta
1 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Steam Vents
2 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Spirebluff Canal
1 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
2 Blood Moon
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Countersquall
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Dispel
1 Go for the Throat
1 Damnation
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Painful Truths
1 Collective Brutality
1 Thoughtseize
The mana base is a little less than perfect because I'm missing a couple of fetchlands, but I do feel like 8 fetches and 20 lands total is good. The maindeck Censor was a test this week. I wasn't hugely impressed by it, I think I'm going to either run a Deprive or a Cut // Ribbons in its place moving forward. Also considering dropping the Painful Truths for a second Thoughtseize in the board. I've been loving the 3-3-3-3 split of removal/counters (excluding Bolt) in the main deck; the third Terminiate in particular really helps diversify your removal suite.
1 Dispel
2 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Blood Moon
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Go for the Throat
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Damnation
1 Painful Truths
1 Thoughtseize
1 Collective Brutality
This was my thought process for the board: our weakest matchups are Tron variants, Bant Eldrazi, Dredge, and Abzan (because of Lingering Souls). We are good to great against almost every other deck in the field, so I wanted the sideboard to mostly help those 4 matchups while having some versatility elsewhere.
Blood Moon feels like the best way to address the Tron and Eldrazi matchups at the same time. While running land destruction plus Surgical is good against Tron, it's not particularly effective against Bant Eldrazi or Eldrazi Tron. Blood Moon gives you game in all 3 of those matchups. Ceremonious Rejection also pulls a ton of weight against all of those strategies, while also having some nice use against Affinity and Lantern.
Surgical is super versatile and can come in for alot of matchups. It's obviously excellent against Dredge, but it's also one of our best answers to Lingering Souls. Staticaster fills a similar role in that it shines in both of those matchups.
Damnation, Painful Truths, and Go for the Throat gives us some additional percentage points against midrange and Bant Eldrazi. Brutality is a swiss army knife and can be brought in for a bunch of general matchups.
The only one I'm still on the fence about is Thoughtseize; it might be better off as a second Staticaster
1 Shattering Spree
1 Shatterstorm
1 Vandalblast
All 3 can break a Chalice on 2, and only Vandalblast can't get past a Chalice on 1 and 2. However, one of the biggest reasons I like this package is that you can Gifts for it in other artifact heavy matchups and get a virtually guaranteed artifact sweeper in your hand. It gives you a bit more game against Affinity, Lantern, etc. Running it alongside Echoing Truth gives you a myriad of options for breaking lock pieces
I'm not promoting using Cryptic Serpent, I don't think it's where we want to be either. I was more making a comment about the archetype in general.
I think it's pretty hard to argue that you're trying to "go under" Affinity or Infect, as that is literally the definition of what those decks are doing to us (and they do it much better). All the other matchups you listed you are totally correct in saying you need to be proactive in, as those strategies have more inevitability late game than we do, either through combo or just greater power level. It's the matchups you didn't mention where the controlling/protecting roles become more apparent: Jund, Abzan, Death's Shadow variants, Jeskai control, UW control, Merfolk, etc. If you try to "go under" any of these strategies, you'll not have as much success.
I'm going to argue that this deck is NOT mainly an aggressive deck. Grixis Delver in Modern is, in my opinion, one of the best examples of recognizing your role in a matchup. For example, you will lose to a control deck quite often if you try to rush your Tasigur out turn 2 into unprotected removal, but sometimes the turn 2 Tasigur is the only way to beat a Scapeshift or Tron player because you need to race them. Especially in this iteration of Delver (now that Probe is gone), you need to be able to recognize when you can sit back. You will always have at least some late game because we are a Snapcaster Mage deck at heart, and we can grind very well.
I'm not saying you're wrong at all, because there are some matchups you absolutely want to be going turn 1 or turn 2 threat in order to have a chance. But there's also a good amount of matchups where you need to be the control and pace yourself, and so the aggressive strategy is not optimal