I’d like to build a cleric tribal commander deck with Ravos and Tymna, but then both my commander decks would be illegal for 1 vs. 1 play.
I built my own Cleric tribal deck with Ravos and Tymna and it is hilariously effective. It's interesting to note how much history the Cleric and Demon creature types share too. I like running Conspiracy to make my Demons into Clerics as well! Not only hilarious in idea, but I included some utility for it too. I say go for it! Partner Clerics is honestly the main reason making a Cleric deck seemed viable to me.
and in response to OP, I have considered running a mono-partner deck with Vial Smasher the Fierce simply because I have had a really hard time liking the RB Legends... most of the excellent choices are 5-7cmc and at that point aren't as consistent as I would like (considering red's mana deficiencies) for build-around concepts...which I have a penchant for. Currently my Rakdos deck has two commanders because I couldn't even settle on any black bordered one and went with Grusilda, Monster Masher! The backup for purists is Tsabo Tavoc but I haven't had anyone object to Grusilda yet.
The problem right now is that wizards has even less of a reason to undo the reserved list to day than a year ago. The entire idea behind masters sets were to cash in on high demand cards in order to make more money. They tried doing this repeatedly for years and eroded peoples confidence in the market prices for rare cards, causing prices to slowly drop. Then when they messed up on two masters sets in a row, it caused a massive drop in confidence that wizards would even reprint anything people needed and put the market into a buying frenzy, spiking prices all over the place.
If that had been true, they wouldn't have filled the masters set with mostly chaff cards that noone in their right mind care about and that are valued very low. Had they really intended to use the master sets to print desirable cards, they would have printed some of the expensive modern and legacy/vintage cards in the last two masters set. But instead of doing that, they printed cards that the majority of the target audience doesn't care about, because "they wanted to make a good draft experience", well, the draft experience was bad. The only time in the last four years where WotC actually reprinted value cards that people care about was in Battlebond.
IN BATTLEBOND LIES THE SOLUTION - FORMAT BYPASSING CARDS
Hey everyone! I've just discovered this forum and it looks awesome! The question I have is on the value of a few unique cards. I have a playset of revised Wrath of God's in played condition...the kicker is they each have different custom artwork from Quinton Hoover. I also have an Italian Legends Pyrotechnics with a full albino front. It's also in played condition. I'll try to add pictures.
Thanks everyone and it's great to be here!
This would be a good case to get an opinion from the youtuber: TheMisprintGuy
Your playgroup rules are screwed if they won't allow MLD but run all of these ramp decks. They've allowed themselves to run amok with decks who's weakness is the one thing that keeps a ramp deck in check - killing lands.
Sounds like a petty lot
For the kind of money you're spending, I would think you'll get a more enjoyable experience with your purchases if you found a more casual playgroup. I would like to introduce you to Wake of Destruction. I used it on a mono-white pillow fort deck on saturday - it was delicious. Player got upset but I reminded him that he was doing white things just fine, slowing our game down to a 2.5hr match, so it was only fair that my red deck got to be red and do red things to him - to slow him down. He later agreed after the game that it was fair. We spent an hour and a half with no attacks.... ugh!
Sounds like you're inspired to make a suicide deck. I made a very effective one in person and have the decklist in my signature, with Selenia, Dark Angel at the helm... Check it out you will get some delicious ideas!
Everyone needs to realize that the RL is here to stay. Thinking otherwise and arguing for otherwise is a waste of everyone's time when:
The way forward is to make a better future
We can make WoTC give us a better future if we focus together on tasks that actually make a difference. *****ing about the RL makes no difference.
Want to make a difference? Then start arguing for the following:
The most direct means of getting more RL cards into people's hands, that are already as good as the originals is to unban the World Championship & Collector's edition cards from tournament play. That is literally the best we can do on the front of getting more RL cards to people.
Next up is that we need to insist that WoTC uses format-bypassing cards in more of their products. Standard is the enemy of all other formats besides standard and we need to get WoTC to realize it and start bypassing it. All of our eternal formats will benefit.
Let's get unified behind something realistic people.
I hope that Wizards never abolishes the reserve list.
I played through the chronicles disaster. The problem with the reserve list is that people can only see the most immediate thing blocking the path of picking up their desirable cards. What they fail to see is that the reserve list is a big reason why the cards are desirable in the first place.
Chronicles came out in 1995. 23 years ago.
You can still see the legacy of the damage Chronicles caused today.
This is a listing of Arcades Sabboth, Chronicles version. 4 for $2.20. A playset for $2.20!
23 years ago, prior to the reprint, in 1995, Arcaddes Sabboth went for about $40. How many of you remember that?
Only now has the price of Arcaddes Sabboth English Legends recovered its price.
My old magic collection is littered with junk chronicles. Prior to Chronicles, every kid coveted the elder dragon-the most powerful creatures in magic at the time. After the reprint, no one wanted it. Or perhaps more accurately, we wanted it. We got it. Elder dragons were about $5 after the reprint and then said meh. And went on to do other things in life. We quit magic, finished school, read comics, passed on magic for the dozens of other fun things mtg has always competed with.
The reserve list creates the scarcity responsible for the desirability of mtg in the first place.
Even today, the cards of chronicles are mostly junk with a few exceptions that have gained notable value--blood moon, concordant crossroads, etc.
Chronicles didn't do it alone however. That same year, 4th edition also reprinted a ton of old cards from antiquities and legends. The real issue though was that the damage was done.
After seeing some of the most coveted cards reprinted, MTG lost its desirability as a collectible.
Once mtg loses it's desirability, people wake up. They realize they don't want to spend 3 bucks a pack. They realizes it's just another game.
And if it's just another game with no collectible value, then its a ridiculously expensive form of entertainment that wont compete favorably with the thousands of other forms of entertainment.
The reserved list was created because a handful of collectors threw a hissy fit and WotC panicked. Most of the advocates for the reserved list have never played the game or have not played the game for years. Non-players should have zero say in whether or not a card can and should be reprinted. And lets not mince words here, Vintage and Legacy are slowly dying as formats because of the Reserved list, and that is a tragedy.
Responding to the bold highlighted sentence:
I have been 100% behind this sentiment in the past - but I have hope now that the RL won't matter as much since seeing Battlebond - and I say the following with hope. I've made pleas to WoTC in the past and have seen the needed change I wanted, but not yet applied as expansively as I would desire.. There is legitimate pretext now for a better future in Vintage and Legacy.. A year ago I urged WoTC to expand the concept of format-bypassing cards like what we see with the 56 new cards per year in the Commander products.
Since seeing WoTC take and expand on this concept seen in Commander and using it in another product, Battlebond, I believe there is reasonable hope to see the format-bypassing concept expanded upon - which is just about the best alternative to removing the RL that I can think of for injecting new content and focus on all of the eternal formats. We just have to cross our fingers that WoTC is serious about using this concept in more than just casual format-designed products.
I have hope that the next equivalent to the Masters series may use this concept for including format-bypassing cards - which would also better justify the $10 per pack price tag much more than what we currently get for such a steep price.
Take what you want from my thoughts, but I do have reasons that I think are justifiable to see a better future for eternal formats without needing to do anything to the RL.
EDIT: Also, I foresee WoTC justifying inaction on the RL if they whole-heartedly endorse the concept of format-bypassing cards in Eternal format products.
I'll be using her as a political deck in a different way than mentioned yet. The deck name will simply be "Blackmail"..
I've long wanted to do a forced combat/chaos theme with Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs and have multiple decklist variants for him - but Xantcha can still helm a very similar (in spirit) deck to what I've been brewing for years with Kazuul.
My problem with trying to set up a table-wide forced combat situation with Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs has always been the open fact that I'm the one trying to directly (and solely) profit from this combat-related chaos... which understandably paints a target on me and especially Kazuul. So then the dilemma, which has kept me from committing to making a Kazuul deck, is that it's horribly reliant on the commander being out at all times during the chaos. It's already a tall order for any mono red deck to always keep its commander out. Even harder in the context described.
So I will take this concept of all out forced combat across the table and use it in my Xantcha deck - but instead of the obvious profit/motivations I would suffer with Kazuul, I would use Xantcha as a means of meddling in the already existing politics around me.
By this I mean that I'm going to try to create a boardstate that affects the combat step in such a way that the most combat-centric player currently at the table would benefit from my actions and become an even greater threat to Players 3 & 4 - while I bargain with this person for 2nd place. Helping the chosen (combat centric) person in trade for (supposedly) coming in 2nd place accomplishes some surprisingly beneficial things for myself by removing focus from me and dis-incentivizing anyone from killing Xantcha (because she will be Player's 3 & 4's means of not dying to my setup with Player 1) - and will be the "face-value" goal of my Xantcha deck.... But what I will actually have done is given a poison pill to this chosen person by making them the immediate - must kill threat (ideally).
Within this deck design/concept is a very Rakdos desire for chaos and subterfuge - just how Xantcha's world would be.
(FYI I'm withholding from making specific card recommendations until I have come to a satisfactory decklist of my own and committed to the necessary purchases - so my means of accomplishing the above described goals won't be discussed in card-specific detail for a little while still)
These are terrible. Why were they so safe with these? I mean, they literally made that GW Cats deck be better than all of these. At least sneak a PW in these or something interesting. The manabases are hot garbage and the card selections are terrible. I'm going to buy singles from this and that's it.
My exact feelings and exactly what I did. I spent a single one of these deck's value on singles and that'll do for this year's Commander product. Get your singles while you can, as there will be many like minded people. I got mine yesterday morning after the last of the 56 new card spoilers
The only nonbasic land in all four of these decks that produces colored mana and enters the board untapped is Command Tower. Everything else enters tapped. Unbelievable. They couldn't even have chucked us some Amulet of Vigors to make up for their parsimony.
These decks feel like the Commander version of Welcome decks. I'll spend $100 on all the new singles and wash my hands of this.
I spent the value of a single one of these new EDH decks on singles this year, of just the 56 new cards and I'm very glad I chose to do that this time around. The set felt underpowered even previewing the exclusive 56 cards and now my suspicion has been confirmed. C18 is something I'll cherry pick a few singles from and be done with
I have a Demon tribal deck that I've been playing and tuning for a few years now. I ran Ob Nixilis, Unshackled for the whole time as the commander up until Demonlord Belzenlok came out. Now I run Belzenlok as the commander.
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled is excellent as the commander for a few reasons. Since we're playing with powerful demons that typically cost a lot of resources to cast it really hurts to lose them to removal. Black has many powerful cards that demand immediate response and we've almost all experienced the moment where you drop a bomb and the whole table collectively asks eachother "who has a response for that"? and inevitably someone says "I can tutor for a response" - well, conceptually we have a dilemma....a demon deck has so many demons/powerful cards that in my personal experience, every single card I drop people consider a threat and want to blow up! Well Ob Nixilis, Unshackled will certainly make that harder for your opponents. He protects your boardstate by hindering your opponents' ability to respond to your plays. So when using Ob, you want to have him out when you have bomb cards out, he protects them in this way of making it incredibly painful for an opponent to blow up your stuff. The passive +1/+1 counters on death triggers are clutch. Black is in the business of death, so getting free momentum off doing what you want to be doing anyways is what often pushes Ob Nixilis over the top and thus a great choice for commander.
Demonlord Belzenlok however is useful in the momentum he helps you maintain. Drawing the extra cards is huge because mono-black can actually ramp quite well and you'll often need mana sinks or just some constructive way of using that mana - more spells!. I don't have as much to say about Belzenlok because he's much more straight forward, and that's ok. I like him enough that I think the change will be permanent - or atleast until a better demon comes along.
Bomb cards you want to cram into your deck are anything that lets you bring creatures back from grave straight to play. If people are really hating on your demons or commander it will be ok to let them go to the grave if you can cheat them out for less anyways. Late-game when you have 6 or 8 demons in your yard and one is a boardwipe on enter, you're going to want that option to cheat them into play directly. My personal favorite for this is Strands of Night. People shift in their chairs when this comes into play haha! Yes I will just put these 4 demons back into play, I'm generating 30 mana a turn, what's 4 swamps anyways?
I built my own Cleric tribal deck with Ravos and Tymna and it is hilariously effective. It's interesting to note how much history the Cleric and Demon creature types share too. I like running Conspiracy to make my Demons into Clerics as well! Not only hilarious in idea, but I included some utility for it too. I say go for it! Partner Clerics is honestly the main reason making a Cleric deck seemed viable to me.
and in response to OP, I have considered running a mono-partner deck with Vial Smasher the Fierce simply because I have had a really hard time liking the RB Legends... most of the excellent choices are 5-7cmc and at that point aren't as consistent as I would like (considering red's mana deficiencies) for build-around concepts...which I have a penchant for. Currently my Rakdos deck has two commanders because I couldn't even settle on any black bordered one and went with Grusilda, Monster Masher! The backup for purists is Tsabo Tavoc but I haven't had anyone object to Grusilda yet.
IN BATTLEBOND LIES THE SOLUTION - FORMAT BYPASSING CARDS
This would be a good case to get an opinion from the youtuber: TheMisprintGuy
That's the best I can offer
Sounds like a petty lot
For the kind of money you're spending, I would think you'll get a more enjoyable experience with your purchases if you found a more casual playgroup. I would like to introduce you to Wake of Destruction. I used it on a mono-white pillow fort deck on saturday - it was delicious. Player got upset but I reminded him that he was doing white things just fine, slowing our game down to a 2.5hr match, so it was only fair that my red deck got to be red and do red things to him - to slow him down. He later agreed after the game that it was fair. We spent an hour and a half with no attacks.... ugh!
The way forward is to make a better future
We can make WoTC give us a better future if we focus together on tasks that actually make a difference. *****ing about the RL makes no difference.
Want to make a difference? Then start arguing for the following:
The most direct means of getting more RL cards into people's hands, that are already as good as the originals is to unban the World Championship & Collector's edition cards from tournament play. That is literally the best we can do on the front of getting more RL cards to people.
Next up is that we need to insist that WoTC uses format-bypassing cards in more of their products. Standard is the enemy of all other formats besides standard and we need to get WoTC to realize it and start bypassing it. All of our eternal formats will benefit.
Let's get unified behind something realistic people.
Responding to the bold highlighted sentence:
I have been 100% behind this sentiment in the past - but I have hope now that the RL won't matter as much since seeing Battlebond - and I say the following with hope. I've made pleas to WoTC in the past and have seen the needed change I wanted, but not yet applied as expansively as I would desire.. There is legitimate pretext now for a better future in Vintage and Legacy.. A year ago I urged WoTC to expand the concept of format-bypassing cards like what we see with the 56 new cards per year in the Commander products.
I expressed that expanding the concept of format-bypassing cards can directly breathe life into every eternal format and is the necessary future for these formats. I made this proposition here: https://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/the-game/commander-edh/781415-the-rule-of-56-originals-in-commander-is-a
Since seeing WoTC take and expand on this concept seen in Commander and using it in another product, Battlebond, I believe there is reasonable hope to see the format-bypassing concept expanded upon - which is just about the best alternative to removing the RL that I can think of for injecting new content and focus on all of the eternal formats. We just have to cross our fingers that WoTC is serious about using this concept in more than just casual format-designed products.
I have hope that the next equivalent to the Masters series may use this concept for including format-bypassing cards - which would also better justify the $10 per pack price tag much more than what we currently get for such a steep price.
Take what you want from my thoughts, but I do have reasons that I think are justifiable to see a better future for eternal formats without needing to do anything to the RL.
EDIT: Also, I foresee WoTC justifying inaction on the RL if they whole-heartedly endorse the concept of format-bypassing cards in Eternal format products.
I've long wanted to do a forced combat/chaos theme with Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs and have multiple decklist variants for him - but Xantcha can still helm a very similar (in spirit) deck to what I've been brewing for years with Kazuul.
My problem with trying to set up a table-wide forced combat situation with Kazuul, Tyrant of the Cliffs has always been the open fact that I'm the one trying to directly (and solely) profit from this combat-related chaos... which understandably paints a target on me and especially Kazuul. So then the dilemma, which has kept me from committing to making a Kazuul deck, is that it's horribly reliant on the commander being out at all times during the chaos. It's already a tall order for any mono red deck to always keep its commander out. Even harder in the context described.
So I will take this concept of all out forced combat across the table and use it in my Xantcha deck - but instead of the obvious profit/motivations I would suffer with Kazuul, I would use Xantcha as a means of meddling in the already existing politics around me.
By this I mean that I'm going to try to create a boardstate that affects the combat step in such a way that the most combat-centric player currently at the table would benefit from my actions and become an even greater threat to Players 3 & 4 - while I bargain with this person for 2nd place. Helping the chosen (combat centric) person in trade for (supposedly) coming in 2nd place accomplishes some surprisingly beneficial things for myself by removing focus from me and dis-incentivizing anyone from killing Xantcha (because she will be Player's 3 & 4's means of not dying to my setup with Player 1) - and will be the "face-value" goal of my Xantcha deck.... But what I will actually have done is given a poison pill to this chosen person by making them the immediate - must kill threat (ideally).
Within this deck design/concept is a very Rakdos desire for chaos and subterfuge - just how Xantcha's world would be.
(FYI I'm withholding from making specific card recommendations until I have come to a satisfactory decklist of my own and committed to the necessary purchases - so my means of accomplishing the above described goals won't be discussed in card-specific detail for a little while still)
My exact feelings and exactly what I did. I spent a single one of these deck's value on singles and that'll do for this year's Commander product. Get your singles while you can, as there will be many like minded people. I got mine yesterday morning after the last of the 56 new card spoilers
I spent the value of a single one of these new EDH decks on singles this year, of just the 56 new cards and I'm very glad I chose to do that this time around. The set felt underpowered even previewing the exclusive 56 cards and now my suspicion has been confirmed. C18 is something I'll cherry pick a few singles from and be done with
That's a better outlook than hearing of negative wage growth this morning. Rich people, come buy my cardboard!
I have plans for this Demon in my Grusilda, Monster Masher EDH deck
Sower of Discord + Archfiend of Despair Mashed together will be glorious!
It will be "Despair, Archfiend Sower of Discord" lol
Guardian Beast
Hypnox
Mind Twist
Ob Nixilis, Unshackled is excellent as the commander for a few reasons. Since we're playing with powerful demons that typically cost a lot of resources to cast it really hurts to lose them to removal. Black has many powerful cards that demand immediate response and we've almost all experienced the moment where you drop a bomb and the whole table collectively asks eachother "who has a response for that"? and inevitably someone says "I can tutor for a response" - well, conceptually we have a dilemma....a demon deck has so many demons/powerful cards that in my personal experience, every single card I drop people consider a threat and want to blow up! Well Ob Nixilis, Unshackled will certainly make that harder for your opponents. He protects your boardstate by hindering your opponents' ability to respond to your plays. So when using Ob, you want to have him out when you have bomb cards out, he protects them in this way of making it incredibly painful for an opponent to blow up your stuff. The passive +1/+1 counters on death triggers are clutch. Black is in the business of death, so getting free momentum off doing what you want to be doing anyways is what often pushes Ob Nixilis over the top and thus a great choice for commander.
Demonlord Belzenlok however is useful in the momentum he helps you maintain. Drawing the extra cards is huge because mono-black can actually ramp quite well and you'll often need mana sinks or just some constructive way of using that mana - more spells!. I don't have as much to say about Belzenlok because he's much more straight forward, and that's ok. I like him enough that I think the change will be permanent - or atleast until a better demon comes along.
Bomb cards you want to cram into your deck are anything that lets you bring creatures back from grave straight to play. If people are really hating on your demons or commander it will be ok to let them go to the grave if you can cheat them out for less anyways. Late-game when you have 6 or 8 demons in your yard and one is a boardwipe on enter, you're going to want that option to cheat them into play directly. My personal favorite for this is Strands of Night. People shift in their chairs when this comes into play haha! Yes I will just put these 4 demons back into play, I'm generating 30 mana a turn, what's 4 swamps anyways?
GL!