I'm definitely swapping out Thriving Bluff, Thriving Heath, and probably Shimmerdrift Vale for the new blue, black, and green gates. Not sure if the existing gate support cards at common are good enough to make it in the deck.
I agree. I'm also not sure if there are enough gate support cards at common to make this work... for now.
Agree. There are other options unless we get a critical mass or combination of cards where the mill effect matters more than the life gain (for example).
I feel like the adventure creatures would be better suited in more creature heavy decks. The fact that Mystical Teachings can't fetch either is a big downside. Wouldn't Manamorphose be slightly better than Bathe in Gold?
I find myself in situations where having an additional card after a board wipe in the form of a threat (creature) would be valuable.
I do agree that being invisible to Mystical Teachings is a consideration.
As for Manamorphose vs. Young Red Dragon / Bathe in Gold, in a scenario where green or blue was locked Manamorphose is the better card. But, if you wanted to carry the mana-fixing over to a subsequent turn, Bathe in Gold does that by creating a treasure. A card like Deadly Dispute also cares about the artifact (treasure) if you didn't have a creature to sacrifice. In reality, I'm not sure I would actually swap out a ramp spell for Young Red Dragon, but I would be interested to see if having an additional creature after a board wipe would matter in a noticeable number of games.
There are quite a few relevant reprints in this set, some with new artwork. I won't list those. Here are the new cards that look interesting. As always, if I missed anything please add it!
Black Dragon Gate - We have a new cycle of color-fixing gate cards. Along with the thriving lands (ex. Thriving Isle), we have two sets of tap lands with a similar "color-fixing" effect. These two land cycles can likely rework much of the mana base because every one of them ensures that we are hitting green (or a missing color) on every land drop. It is also possible that the old guildgate lands could find a place in the deck if there are "gate" support cards that push them over the edge.
Druid of the Emerald Grove - It is a creature that is sometimes an overcosted Cultivate, but only sometimes. It's an ETB trigger, so if you are leaning into flickering, maybe this is interesting.
Druidic Ritual - It mills and returns a creature and land. There are situations where this would be useful. There are similar cards/effects already, though.
Guardian Naga - The adventure is an instant speed artifact/enchantment exile effect for 2W. Otherwise it's a 5WW creature. Forsake the Worldly is likely the better card, but it's an option.
Navigation Orb - It's a colorless Cultivate variant. It's more mana intensive, but it can be spread over two turns. It also specifically gets "gate" card, so that could be major upside if the manabase gets pushed in that direction.
Prized Statue - This is a 2MV artifact that gives a treasure token (twice). Treasures fix for all five colors and this one puts the treasure into play untapped, so it can be used right away. There are points in the early game where that could matter for getting ahead on the turn cycle.
Summon Undead - Everyone has moved away from direction reanimation spells, but here's another one at 5MV.
Young Red Dragon - This card provides 2MV red color-fixing and temporary ramp through the adventure Bathe in Gold. It's also a creature. You can use it to ramp or color-fix and have it waiting for after a board wipe to cast as another creature into an empty board.
This set brought us a few new cycles of color-fixing cards that could be interesting. As always, if I missed anything please add it!
Big Score - This rarity shift of Pirate's Pillage probably isn't exactly what we are looking for, but I'm interested in cards that create treasures since they can color-fix and act as targets for the cards that ask us to sacrifice artifacts. There could be a new treasure color-fixing deck structure with upside.
Botanical Plaza - This is part of a cycle of two-color lands that ETB tapped but that also have a sac/draw ability. Likely outclassed by other land options.
Brokers Hideout - This is part of a land cycle that fixes for three colors with incidental life-gain.
Dig Up the Body - Introduction of the "Casualty" mechanic. If I am following the timing right, you can sacrifice CoA on cast, which means it will itself be in the graveyard to return along with another creature. There are likely combo shenanigans to be had here, assuming I have the timing right.
Fake Your Own Death - Another instant reanimation spell, this time with a treasure. Do we get to keep the treasure? I think so.
Glamorous Outlaw - Another color-fixing card cycle. This cycle is interesting because it only costs 2 to fix three colors and the card can be cast from exile, which is convenient when the board has just been cleared by CoA.
Make Disappear - This is a corner case card, for sure. But it has Casualty, so it can trigger CoA. Probably not worth the timing restriction, though (in response to another spell being cast).
Witness Protection - Likely too narrow to earn a slot, but it is a 1mv way to deal with an indestructible creature.
I didn't see a lot of great cards for crushing dreams, but there are a few that caught my eye. As always, if you see something I missed, please add it!
Commune with Spirits - It digs for an enchantment or land. I can't imagine this is worth a slot in the deck, but if you're looking for this effect it's here.
Fade into Antiquity - Forsake the Worldly is much better because it has cycling and is an instant, but if you want this effect in green now you have it.
Greater Tanuki - It's ramp. It's color-fixing. It's a body.
Lucky Offering - There are better cards, but this version is 1MV so I'll include it here.
Mirrorshell Crab - It's a 2U soft-counter that can't be countered by traditional counterspells. That's something. It's a body, too.
Mnemonic Sphere - It draws 2 cards for 4MV spread that can be spread over one or two turns. It can also cycle for U. That's interesting.
Planar Incision - It's a blue blink card that returns the creature with +1/+1. This has combo potential.
Return to Action - It's another surprise reanimation card at 2MV. It returns the creature tapped, though. But it gives the creature lifelink for a turn, so it has additional utility. You could use it only for the lifelink, for example.
I don't see anything in this new set that is a "must have," but we did get a bunch of new "exploit" creatures that could be interesting. Here are the cards that jumped out at me in the set. Please add anything I've missed!
Mindleech Ghoul - It's a 2MV sacrifice outlet that makes your opponents exile a card from hand. It can exploit itself, another creature, or Child of Alara. I can imagine a scenario where you're exploiting CoA, hitting everyone with a board wipe, and knocking the last card of out everyone else's hand. With that said, I'm not sure what this would replace in the deck.
Persistent Specimen - We run a lot of cards that sacrifice a creature to draw cards. I'm not sure where the critical mass of effects like that is to make a creature like this worthwhile. Probably much higher than where we are now.
Pointed Discussion - Another draw 2 cards, lose 2 life spell. This one has a bit of upside because it creates a Blood token which can be used for filtering. It is sorcery speed, though. In most of our lists, it does not make the cut of 3MV spells with this effect. It is easier to cast than Notion Rain for example, but sees fewer cards.
Repository Skaab - Is there a world where we want this effect? This card plays multiple roles in the deck as a sacrifice outlet for CoA and a recursion spell for an instant/sorcery (since it can exploit itself). It doesn't leave a body behind if it exploits itself, so it doesn't work with the flicker recursion plan many of you are running.
Reckless Impulse - This isn't the only card in the game that has this effect, but it's reasonably costed for access to two cards with a time limit.
Scattered Thoughts - It sees 4 cards at instant speed and lets you keep 2 of them. That's a pretty good rate. It doesn't draw the cards, so you're only looking at those 4 off the top, but it's only supported by one U mana symbol. That's a lot of cards to see for a splashable spell like this.
Stitched Assistant - Another exploit creature. This one has scry 1, then draw 1 card. This falls into that zone where the card has a lot of ways we can use it, but might be too high of a MV to make it worth replacing anything else.
Undying Malice - Because sometimes you just need another copy of this effect in your deck. Seriously, we have a lot of options like this now at 1MV. This one comes with a +1/+1 counter, but the creature comes back tapped.
We also got a reprint of Evolving Wilds if you are interested in new artwork / bling for your deck.
As always, thank you urdjur for the time and energy you put into your analysis and write-up(s). It is helpful to spark conversation and also to look back on thoughts as the deck develops.
4MV vs. 1MV Reanimation Spells
I am drawn to the 4MV reanimation spells, probably because my style of play. Is it not your experience that you have tight turns in the early-to-mid-game where you simply do not have the extra B mana to cast one of the 1MV spells to bring CoA back? This happens to me a lot. And those 1MV renanimation spells are terrible topdecks.
Tough Choices
The more I think about this deck, the more I realize that I'm not making the tough choices on what to cut. There are a lot of "cutsey" cards in my list, like Minimus Containment, that I end up telling myself I am "testing," but that I know aren't really helping me move the overall strategy forward. This is probably where all of our metas or playgrounds differ. If the deck is /too efficient,/ my opponents don't want to shuffle up and try again. That's not a good argument for running suboptimal cards, but falling back on making some card swaps here and there at least changes up the lines of play for a while.
Indestructible Lands
This is possibly another meta-driven choice. I simply do not see mass LD in my meta. And if I do, it's rare enough that countermagic is a reasonable response. That's not to say that moving the mana base in this direction is a bad choice anyway, but I haven't felt the pressure so I never considered it.
The Mana Base
In the pre-snow duals days, the mana base already felt solid to me. Turn 4-5 CoA was consistent. Colorless fixers put less pressure on opening hands or counting colored sources. Cards like Expedition Map, Mycosynth Wellspring, and Darksteel Ingot did the job. You've done considerable analysis on the mana sources and fixing. These current mana bases may be objectively better. Again, this may come down to playstyle: mana sources that come into play tapped drive me crazy. Is there a workable version of the mana base that prioritizes untapped mana sources/lands? This could possibly work with Trinket Mage, as you suggested.
Thank you again for the conversation and analysis, to all of you!
The new set brings us more than a few interesting cards. I'm only going to list the cards that I think will test out, but there are several other cards in the set that look like they could be upgrades, duplicate effects, or a different direction besides these. Please add your own analysis!
Ardent Elementalist - Can't be tutored with Wizardcycling, but likely better than Izzet Chronarch. Same effect, less mana, fewer colors.
Blood Pact - Another draw 2 for 3cmc and 2 life, but this one is at instant speed. It's not the most efficient version of this spell, but instant speed could make it a contender for one of the other card draw slots.
Eaten Alive - This is an Angelic Purge-type effect, except it hits planeswalkers (and not artifacts or enchantments). It also has more flexible costing, allowing us more control over if we need to trigger CoA (for example). This could be good if you are running into indestructible creatures in your meta, although Capsize is likely the better solution.
Electric Revelation - I like filter cards. This one had flashback for added value. I don't run Faithless Looting, though. And I would probably test that over this first.
Path to the Festival - It tutors for a basic land and puts it into play tapped and is likely to offer the Scry 1 in this deck. Plus, it has flashback. That might be enough value to make this worth a ramp slot.
What other cool cards did you see for this deck in the new set?
In a multiplayer game, I use CoA as a rattlesnake card. I aggressively ramp into CoA in the early stages of the game, using removal to stop anyone coming at me during the early turns. The incremental value creatures are good early blockers. The beauty of this deck is that it doesn't look threatening in the early turns.
I tutor to set up this combination of cards:
1) CoA in play.
2) A card in hand to trigger CoA, ideally Sidisi's Faithful.
3) A recursion card in hand, ideally Disturbed Burial.
4) A counterspell in hand.
The first time I demonstrate the loop, I usually gain an insurmountable amount of card advantage. It's enough to often cause the table to concede. Seriously. This happens a lot. People don't realize how backbreaking wiping the board is in a multiplayer game. When they see that I can literally do it over and over, they start to think through decklists and realize there isn't a way out.
We don't call it "dreamcrusher" for nothing.
If they decide to play it out, I usually take out one player at a time with CoA beats while playing a quick game of Archenemy as they proceed to openly gang up on me. If often doesn't matter because they don't have enough collective time to rebuild under repeated board wipes.
If there is a tricky control player, I buy time and tutor to set this up:
1) 12+ mana sources in play.
2) Capsize in hand.
3) A counterspell in hand.
Capsizing one or two permanents per turn after a CoA board wipe is usually enough to cause the concession.
I rarely use the combo to win. It's too risky to outright tutor for and never comes up randomly (for me). It's good to know that it's there.
This deck is cool because you can hold counterspells for the very few cards that cause you to not be able to loop CoA. Discard spells, counterspells, hasted threats, indestructible blockers, etc. You can (mostly) let everything else go through because CoA will clean it up in short order. Even then, unless it causes you an outright loss, you can even lose a counter war and still rebuild because you will likely draw one of the card draw spells or something that lets you recur a key card. The entire deck is set up to be robust in this way. In other words, you can let spells resolve that would cause other decks an eventual loss.
I'm interested to know how the flow of the game goes for other players.
You got it, Fr0sty711! I updated the spreadsheet. Send me an editor request if you haven't already. You can swizzle the spreadsheet around if you need to make any updates.
Why Feign Death over Undying Evil? Without Opal Palace, Feign Death would just be worse since you leave your Child tapped when it recurs. I'm not saying that is some major difference, but I've definitely had situations come up where that would make a difference.
You are right. I had them both in the list while I was working on it and deleted the wrong one! Fixed!
I am interested to hear how you feel about Minimus Containment. I opt for Forsake the Worldly because I can cycle it when I run into early on and don't need it, knowing I can likely recur it later as needed. If you're opting for Minimus, I'd also recommend trying out Faith's Fetters since it doesn't give the opponent access to something like a commander as easily by just sacrificing the newly created Treasure.
I like this effect 3MV and I like that Minimus Containment hits (almost) everything. It's more of a tempo play since I'm just trying to get the Child loop going. Ultimately, being able to cycle Forsake the Worldly might push it over, but I wanted to give the new card a try here.
P.S. My list has now been updated on the spreadsheet as well!
Sweet! Thank you for keeping the list up to date. I see that you've got Quandrix Campus in your list now. Let us know how that goes!
I updated the spreadsheet with my current list. If you have changes to your list or want your list added please post!
Ramp/Fixing
Since I finally got around to adding snow lands, I updated the ramping and fixing spells. I like Commander's Sphere instead of Darksteel Ingot. By the time I'm casting Child and blowing up the world, I'd rather have the additional card from the Sphere. Basically, it ramps when I need ramp, fixes when I need fixing, and cycles (for a new card) exactly when I don't need it anymore.
I'm running Impulse in the Sea Gate Oracle slot. I'd rather see more cards than have the body on the battlefield. I'm also trying You Find the Villains' Lair. I like both modes (filtering and countering).
Countermagic
I'm running all four blasts. I think of these as 1MV spells to trigger Child at instant speed with upside in a bunch of matches. They can act as removal and counterspells for blue and red, both of which show up in most games.
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets
I'm running Deadly Dispute over Terminate. Terminate is great at what it does, but I rarely need that effect. I'd rather have another way to draw cards and trigger Child.
I noticed that on the recent lists, you are all running Land Grant. None of you are running Nature's Lore or Three Visits. Why?
Land Grant can occasionally be cast for no mana, but it requires you to a) have a hand with no lands in it and (crucially) b) reveal your hand. Otherwise, the casting cost is the same as the other two options (1G) but the effect is much worse. Land Grant puts the forest card into your hand. The other two spells put the forest card onto the battlefield. That's a massive difference.
In other words, 100% of the time, the effect from Land Grant is worse than the effect from Nature's Lore or Three Visits. But some percentage of the time, you can cast Land Grant "for free." Except, it's not really free because you need to reveal your hand.
How often are you casting Land Grant for free? And when you are, how often would have rather have ramped the land onto the battlefield rather than just putting it into your hand?
A couple of scenarios:
You draw an opening hand with 0-1 lands and Land Grant. Is this hand really keepable because of Land Grant (casting it for free on an early turn)?
You draw an opening hand with 2 lands and Land Grant. Would Nature's Lore of Three Visits be better here?
You are in the first 4 turns of the game. Is Land Grant the best land fixing spell when you are trying to ramp into Child?
You are in the mid-game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
You are in the late game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
There aren't many times when I'd rather have Land Grant. I'd rather pay the mana and put the land onto the battlefield. Playing it for free and revealing my hand is asking for trouble. If Land Grant did the exact same thing as Nature's Lore, but had the optional "play for free" clause, I could see why it would be the clear winner for this slot. But it doesn't do the same thing as Nature's Lore. What am I missing?
You are totally right! I read Minimus Containment as an Oblivion Ring effect, but it's not. It simply enchants the permanent; so yes, they both get blown up at the same time by Child. This makes it a much better card for our purposes. It hits everything except lands and even removes indestructible.
I'll edit my previous post to reflect this better information. Thank you, Reaper9889. You rock.
Deadly Dispute - A more flexible Altar's Reap with upside. Can be a strict upgrade or move the deck further into black for this effect. Am I reading this right? You get the treasure token after the Child of Alara sacrifice ability resolves? ***UPDATE: Several confirmations below that you do get the treasure token.
Evolving Wilds - Fancy reprint that maintains the "common" set symbol. I only play cards with the common set symbol in this deck, so it's nice to have options. The fancy reprints usually use a gold symbol.
Fates' Reversal - This one is a reach if you wanted to play Dungeons. You'd need to go deep on other sub-optimal cards, though.
Feign Death - Similar to Undying Evil. You can Feign Death a creature that already has a +1/+1 counter on it, but it does return tapped.
Minimus Containment - This *would* be great, except it gets blown up when Child triggers, releasing whatever terrible thing contained therein. ***UPDATE: See post by Reaper9889 below. This is not an Oblivion Ring effect; it's an enchantment. So, Child will destroy it and whatever it is enchanting at the same time. It acts as a removal spell for any nonland permanent, albeit with some gotchas.
You Find the Villains' Lair - Good stuff. Not as a replacement for a counter spell, unless you are running one of the other 3MV mono-blue counters like Faerie Trickery. But as a replacement for a filter card. I'm looking at my card drawing/filtering slots for this one.
What did I miss? Anything else look exciting or worth discussing?
I agree. I'm also not sure if there are enough gate support cards at common to make this work... for now.
Agree. There are other options unless we get a critical mass or combination of cards where the mill effect matters more than the life gain (for example).
I find myself in situations where having an additional card after a board wipe in the form of a threat (creature) would be valuable.
I do agree that being invisible to Mystical Teachings is a consideration.
As for Manamorphose vs. Young Red Dragon / Bathe in Gold, in a scenario where green or blue was locked Manamorphose is the better card. But, if you wanted to carry the mana-fixing over to a subsequent turn, Bathe in Gold does that by creating a treasure. A card like Deadly Dispute also cares about the artifact (treasure) if you didn't have a creature to sacrifice. In reality, I'm not sure I would actually swap out a ramp spell for Young Red Dragon, but I would be interested to see if having an additional creature after a board wipe would matter in a noticeable number of games.
There are quite a few relevant reprints in this set, some with new artwork. I won't list those. Here are the new cards that look interesting. As always, if I missed anything please add it!
Black Dragon Gate - We have a new cycle of color-fixing gate cards. Along with the thriving lands (ex. Thriving Isle), we have two sets of tap lands with a similar "color-fixing" effect. These two land cycles can likely rework much of the mana base because every one of them ensures that we are hitting green (or a missing color) on every land drop. It is also possible that the old guildgate lands could find a place in the deck if there are "gate" support cards that push them over the edge.
Druid of the Emerald Grove - It is a creature that is sometimes an overcosted Cultivate, but only sometimes. It's an ETB trigger, so if you are leaning into flickering, maybe this is interesting.
Druidic Ritual - It mills and returns a creature and land. There are situations where this would be useful. There are similar cards/effects already, though.
Guardian Naga - The adventure is an instant speed artifact/enchantment exile effect for 2W. Otherwise it's a 5WW creature. Forsake the Worldly is likely the better card, but it's an option.
Navigation Orb - It's a colorless Cultivate variant. It's more mana intensive, but it can be spread over two turns. It also specifically gets "gate" card, so that could be major upside if the manabase gets pushed in that direction.
Prized Statue - This is a 2MV artifact that gives a treasure token (twice). Treasures fix for all five colors and this one puts the treasure into play untapped, so it can be used right away. There are points in the early game where that could matter for getting ahead on the turn cycle.
Summon Undead - Everyone has moved away from direction reanimation spells, but here's another one at 5MV.
Young Red Dragon - This card provides 2MV red color-fixing and temporary ramp through the adventure Bathe in Gold. It's also a creature. You can use it to ramp or color-fix and have it waiting for after a board wipe to cast as another creature into an empty board.
If your list is already on the spreadsheet, you are invited to update it!
If your list is not already on the spreadsheet, please create a new column and add it!
This set brought us a few new cycles of color-fixing cards that could be interesting. As always, if I missed anything please add it!
Big Score - This rarity shift of Pirate's Pillage probably isn't exactly what we are looking for, but I'm interested in cards that create treasures since they can color-fix and act as targets for the cards that ask us to sacrifice artifacts. There could be a new treasure color-fixing deck structure with upside.
Botanical Plaza - This is part of a cycle of two-color lands that ETB tapped but that also have a sac/draw ability. Likely outclassed by other land options.
Brokers Hideout - This is part of a land cycle that fixes for three colors with incidental life-gain.
Demon's Due - Another 4mv scry 2 / draw 2 / lose 2 card in black. An instant speed Read the Bones for an additional mana. Behold the Multiverse is likely your better option.
Dig Up the Body - Introduction of the "Casualty" mechanic. If I am following the timing right, you can sacrifice CoA on cast, which means it will itself be in the graveyard to return along with another creature. There are likely combo shenanigans to be had here, assuming I have the timing right.
Fake Your Own Death - Another instant reanimation spell, this time with a treasure. Do we get to keep the treasure? I think so.
Glamorous Outlaw - Another color-fixing card cycle. This cycle is interesting because it only costs 2 to fix three colors and the card can be cast from exile, which is convenient when the board has just been cleared by CoA.
Make Disappear - This is a corner case card, for sure. But it has Casualty, so it can trigger CoA. Probably not worth the timing restriction, though (in response to another spell being cast).
Witness Protection - Likely too narrow to earn a slot, but it is a 1mv way to deal with an indestructible creature.
I didn't see a lot of great cards for crushing dreams, but there are a few that caught my eye. As always, if you see something I missed, please add it!
Commune with Spirits - It digs for an enchantment or land. I can't imagine this is worth a slot in the deck, but if you're looking for this effect it's here.
Fade into Antiquity - Forsake the Worldly is much better because it has cycling and is an instant, but if you want this effect in green now you have it.
Greater Tanuki - It's ramp. It's color-fixing. It's a body.
Lucky Offering - There are better cards, but this version is 1MV so I'll include it here.
Mirrorshell Crab - It's a 2U soft-counter that can't be countered by traditional counterspells. That's something. It's a body, too.
Mnemonic Sphere - It draws 2 cards for 4MV spread that can be spread over one or two turns. It can also cycle for U. That's interesting.
Planar Incision - It's a blue blink card that returns the creature with +1/+1. This has combo potential.
Reckoner's Bargain - It's a Deadly Dispute that gains life instead of creating a treasure.
Return to Action - It's another surprise reanimation card at 2MV. It returns the creature tapped, though. But it gives the creature lifelink for a turn, so it has additional utility. You could use it only for the lifelink, for example.
Uncharted Haven - It's a non-snow Shimmerdrift Vale.
I don't see anything in this new set that is a "must have," but we did get a bunch of new "exploit" creatures that could be interesting. Here are the cards that jumped out at me in the set. Please add anything I've missed!
Mindleech Ghoul - It's a 2MV sacrifice outlet that makes your opponents exile a card from hand. It can exploit itself, another creature, or Child of Alara. I can imagine a scenario where you're exploiting CoA, hitting everyone with a board wipe, and knocking the last card of out everyone else's hand. With that said, I'm not sure what this would replace in the deck.
Persistent Specimen - We run a lot of cards that sacrifice a creature to draw cards. I'm not sure where the critical mass of effects like that is to make a creature like this worthwhile. Probably much higher than where we are now.
Pointed Discussion - Another draw 2 cards, lose 2 life spell. This one has a bit of upside because it creates a Blood token which can be used for filtering. It is sorcery speed, though. In most of our lists, it does not make the cut of 3MV spells with this effect. It is easier to cast than Notion Rain for example, but sees fewer cards.
Repository Skaab - Is there a world where we want this effect? This card plays multiple roles in the deck as a sacrifice outlet for CoA and a recursion spell for an instant/sorcery (since it can exploit itself). It doesn't leave a body behind if it exploits itself, so it doesn't work with the flicker recursion plan many of you are running.
Reckless Impulse - This isn't the only card in the game that has this effect, but it's reasonably costed for access to two cards with a time limit.
Scattered Thoughts - It sees 4 cards at instant speed and lets you keep 2 of them. That's a pretty good rate. It doesn't draw the cards, so you're only looking at those 4 off the top, but it's only supported by one U mana symbol. That's a lot of cards to see for a splashable spell like this.
Stitched Assistant - Another exploit creature. This one has scry 1, then draw 1 card. This falls into that zone where the card has a lot of ways we can use it, but might be too high of a MV to make it worth replacing anything else.
Undying Malice - Because sometimes you just need another copy of this effect in your deck. Seriously, we have a lot of options like this now at 1MV. This one comes with a +1/+1 counter, but the creature comes back tapped.
We also got a reprint of Evolving Wilds if you are interested in new artwork / bling for your deck.
4MV vs. 1MV Reanimation Spells
I am drawn to the 4MV reanimation spells, probably because my style of play. Is it not your experience that you have tight turns in the early-to-mid-game where you simply do not have the extra B mana to cast one of the 1MV spells to bring CoA back? This happens to me a lot. And those 1MV renanimation spells are terrible topdecks.
Tough Choices
The more I think about this deck, the more I realize that I'm not making the tough choices on what to cut. There are a lot of "cutsey" cards in my list, like Minimus Containment, that I end up telling myself I am "testing," but that I know aren't really helping me move the overall strategy forward. This is probably where all of our metas or playgrounds differ. If the deck is /too efficient,/ my opponents don't want to shuffle up and try again. That's not a good argument for running suboptimal cards, but falling back on making some card swaps here and there at least changes up the lines of play for a while.
Indestructible Lands
This is possibly another meta-driven choice. I simply do not see mass LD in my meta. And if I do, it's rare enough that countermagic is a reasonable response. That's not to say that moving the mana base in this direction is a bad choice anyway, but I haven't felt the pressure so I never considered it.
The Mana Base
In the pre-snow duals days, the mana base already felt solid to me. Turn 4-5 CoA was consistent. Colorless fixers put less pressure on opening hands or counting colored sources. Cards like Expedition Map, Mycosynth Wellspring, and Darksteel Ingot did the job. You've done considerable analysis on the mana sources and fixing. These current mana bases may be objectively better. Again, this may come down to playstyle: mana sources that come into play tapped drive me crazy. Is there a workable version of the mana base that prioritizes untapped mana sources/lands? This could possibly work with Trinket Mage, as you suggested.
Thank you again for the conversation and analysis, to all of you!
The new set brings us more than a few interesting cards. I'm only going to list the cards that I think will test out, but there are several other cards in the set that look like they could be upgrades, duplicate effects, or a different direction besides these. Please add your own analysis!
Ardent Elementalist - Can't be tutored with Wizardcycling, but likely better than Izzet Chronarch. Same effect, less mana, fewer colors.
Blood Pact - Another draw 2 for 3cmc and 2 life, but this one is at instant speed. It's not the most efficient version of this spell, but instant speed could make it a contender for one of the other card draw slots.
Eaten Alive - This is an Angelic Purge-type effect, except it hits planeswalkers (and not artifacts or enchantments). It also has more flexible costing, allowing us more control over if we need to trigger CoA (for example). This could be good if you are running into indestructible creatures in your meta, although Capsize is likely the better solution.
Electric Revelation - I like filter cards. This one had flashback for added value. I don't run Faithless Looting, though. And I would probably test that over this first.
Path to the Festival - It tutors for a basic land and puts it into play tapped and is likely to offer the Scry 1 in this deck. Plus, it has flashback. That might be enough value to make this worth a ramp slot.
What other cool cards did you see for this deck in the new set?
I tutor to set up this combination of cards:
1) CoA in play.
2) A card in hand to trigger CoA, ideally Sidisi's Faithful.
3) A recursion card in hand, ideally Disturbed Burial.
4) A counterspell in hand.
The first time I demonstrate the loop, I usually gain an insurmountable amount of card advantage. It's enough to often cause the table to concede. Seriously. This happens a lot. People don't realize how backbreaking wiping the board is in a multiplayer game. When they see that I can literally do it over and over, they start to think through decklists and realize there isn't a way out.
We don't call it "dreamcrusher" for nothing.
If they decide to play it out, I usually take out one player at a time with CoA beats while playing a quick game of Archenemy as they proceed to openly gang up on me. If often doesn't matter because they don't have enough collective time to rebuild under repeated board wipes.
If there is a tricky control player, I buy time and tutor to set this up:
1) 12+ mana sources in play.
2) Capsize in hand.
3) A counterspell in hand.
Capsizing one or two permanents per turn after a CoA board wipe is usually enough to cause the concession.
I rarely use the combo to win. It's too risky to outright tutor for and never comes up randomly (for me). It's good to know that it's there.
This deck is cool because you can hold counterspells for the very few cards that cause you to not be able to loop CoA. Discard spells, counterspells, hasted threats, indestructible blockers, etc. You can (mostly) let everything else go through because CoA will clean it up in short order. Even then, unless it causes you an outright loss, you can even lose a counter war and still rebuild because you will likely draw one of the card draw spells or something that lets you recur a key card. The entire deck is set up to be robust in this way. In other words, you can let spells resolve that would cause other decks an eventual loss.
I'm interested to know how the flow of the game goes for other players.
You are right. I had them both in the list while I was working on it and deleted the wrong one! Fixed!
I like this effect 3MV and I like that Minimus Containment hits (almost) everything. It's more of a tempo play since I'm just trying to get the Child loop going. Ultimately, being able to cycle Forsake the Worldly might push it over, but I wanted to give the new card a try here.
Sweet! Thank you for keeping the list up to date. I see that you've got Quandrix Campus in your list now. Let us know how that goes!
Ramp/Fixing
Since I finally got around to adding snow lands, I updated the ramping and fixing spells. I like Commander's Sphere instead of Darksteel Ingot. By the time I'm casting Child and blowing up the world, I'd rather have the additional card from the Sphere. Basically, it ramps when I need ramp, fixes when I need fixing, and cycles (for a new card) exactly when I don't need it anymore.
I'm also running Wood Elves, Nature's Lore, and Three Visits. I value guaranteed search and ramp.
Card Draw/Quality
I'm running Impulse in the Sea Gate Oracle slot. I'd rather see more cards than have the body on the battlefield. I'm also trying You Find the Villains' Lair. I like both modes (filtering and countering).
Countermagic
I'm running all four blasts. I think of these as 1MV spells to trigger Child at instant speed with upside in a bunch of matches. They can act as removal and counterspells for blue and red, both of which show up in most games.
Creature Removal/Sacrifice Outlets
I'm running Deadly Dispute over Terminate. Terminate is great at what it does, but I rarely need that effect. I'd rather have another way to draw cards and trigger Child.
Recursion
I'm running all three: False Defeat / Breath of Life / Late to Dinner. I'd rather skip all the steps and put Child back onto the battlefield from the graveyard directly. I'm also running Feign Death over Kaya's Ghostform. Surprise!
Utility
I'm running Minimus Containment in the Forsake the Worldly / Angelic Purge slot. It hits (almost) everything.
Land
It's winter.
I noticed that on the recent lists, you are all running Land Grant. None of you are running Nature's Lore or Three Visits. Why?
Land Grant can occasionally be cast for no mana, but it requires you to a) have a hand with no lands in it and (crucially) b) reveal your hand. Otherwise, the casting cost is the same as the other two options (1G) but the effect is much worse. Land Grant puts the forest card into your hand. The other two spells put the forest card onto the battlefield. That's a massive difference.
In other words, 100% of the time, the effect from Land Grant is worse than the effect from Nature's Lore or Three Visits. But some percentage of the time, you can cast Land Grant "for free." Except, it's not really free because you need to reveal your hand.
How often are you casting Land Grant for free? And when you are, how often would have rather have ramped the land onto the battlefield rather than just putting it into your hand?
A couple of scenarios:
You draw an opening hand with 0-1 lands and Land Grant. Is this hand really keepable because of Land Grant (casting it for free on an early turn)?
You draw an opening hand with 2 lands and Land Grant. Would Nature's Lore of Three Visits be better here?
You are in the first 4 turns of the game. Is Land Grant the best land fixing spell when you are trying to ramp into Child?
You are in the mid-game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
You are in the late game and you topdeck Land Grant. Is the ability to cast Land Grant for free at this point in the game useful?
There aren't many times when I'd rather have Land Grant. I'd rather pay the mana and put the land onto the battlefield. Playing it for free and revealing my hand is asking for trouble. If Land Grant did the exact same thing as Nature's Lore, but had the optional "play for free" clause, I could see why it would be the clear winner for this slot. But it doesn't do the same thing as Nature's Lore. What am I missing?
I'll edit my previous post to reflect this better information. Thank you, Reaper9889. You rock.
Contact Other Plane - On balance, I'd play Behold the Multiverse before this.
Deadly Dispute - A more flexible Altar's Reap with upside. Can be a strict upgrade or move the deck further into black for this effect. Am I reading this right? You get the treasure token after the Child of Alara sacrifice ability resolves? ***UPDATE: Several confirmations below that you do get the treasure token.
Evolving Wilds - Fancy reprint that maintains the "common" set symbol. I only play cards with the common set symbol in this deck, so it's nice to have options. The fancy reprints usually use a gold symbol.
Fates' Reversal - This one is a reach if you wanted to play Dungeons. You'd need to go deep on other sub-optimal cards, though.
Feign Death - Similar to Undying Evil. You can Feign Death a creature that already has a +1/+1 counter on it, but it does return tapped.
Minimus Containment - This *would* be great, except it gets blown up when Child triggers, releasing whatever terrible thing contained therein. ***UPDATE: See post by Reaper9889 below. This is not an Oblivion Ring effect; it's an enchantment. So, Child will destroy it and whatever it is enchanting at the same time. It acts as a removal spell for any nonland permanent, albeit with some gotchas.
You Find the Villains' Lair - Good stuff. Not as a replacement for a counter spell, unless you are running one of the other 3MV mono-blue counters like Faerie Trickery. But as a replacement for a filter card. I'm looking at my card drawing/filtering slots for this one.
What did I miss? Anything else look exciting or worth discussing?