The Mirage fetch lands would be great for pioneer. I do have one question though If they reprint or print anything for Pioneer would it also be legal in modern and other formats?
It would be legal for Legacy, Vintage and Pauper, but for Modern, it depends on HOW they print it. If they print it in Standard then its legal for Modern. If they print a Pioneer set only, then I presume it is exclusive of modern, however, in the end, WOTC can do whatever they want.
Zero copies of Vapor Snag surprises me. It is a great tempo card, and a (temporary) answer to creatures with toughness above three. I could also see Echoing Truth being an option.
I've toyed about with Vapor Snap. What I found is that there are too many cheap creatures in the format and the card disadvantage is usually not worth the tempo gained. Also bouncing something with a cast or come into play trigger hurts. This is, of course, metagame dependant.
I also found I was bouncing my own creatures, especially Snapcaster Mage, enough that Unsummon would actually be better.
I agree; a lot of the tier one meta (i.e. humans) makes vapor snag useless. However, it feels REAL GOOD against zombie fish and hollow ones. It IS a great tempo card to get those bits of incremental damage in, but it's so meta dependent that it belongs in a side board; and there are better cards that belong in your sideboard.
I went 2-2 with the list I posted above. My wins came vs a home brew Humans deck (2-0), and a GR Shamans deck (2-1). I lost to Temur Scapeshift (1-2) and RG Titanshift (0-2).
Round 1, Temur Scapeshift.
Game one, I kept a double Bitterblossom hand with 3 lands, Fatal Push, Cryptic Command, and played turn two Bitterblossom to battle a suspended Search for Tomorrow. I try to Spellstutter Sprite the Search, but he Remands the Sprite. A few turns go by, I counter a Cryptic Command tapping my creatures, and he untaps with Scapeshift and Remand backup. I never cast the second Bitterblossom, but I’m not sure if it would’ve made a difference.
Game 2, I mulligan to 6 (Jace, Dispel, 4 assorted land). He keeps a slow hand, accelerating his lands but having not pay off. I land Jace turn 4, asking if I’m just dead. He draws, plays a land and passes with nothing. I slowly take over and go on to win after many, many brainstorms.
Game 3, my hand is a bit slow, but it had a Thoughtseize and Collective Brutality. These unfortunately could not stop a top decked Scapeshift (copy 3), after I had used a Snapcaster Mage to flash back Thoughtseize and took the second copy one from his hand.
Sideboard plan: -4 Fatal Push, -1 Go for the Throat, -1 Dismember, +2 Countersquall, +1 Dispel, +2 Collective Brutality, +1 Surgical Extraction
Round 2, GR Shamans
Game 1, I mulligan to 5. Mono Islands can’t cast Fatal Push, and I lose to triple Burning Tree Emissary into Rage Forger turn 3
Game 2, I kept the board clean with a hand of double Fatal Push and a Snapcaster, then drop a Jace on turn 5 and draw more removal. Mistbind Clique flies in to win.
Game 3, another removal heavy game. The opponent gets stuck on 3 lands, and so my removal isn’t taxed by multiple creatures. He lands a Troll Ascetic, which gives me pause. We sit at a standstill for a few turns, and then he casts a Burning Tree Emissary without using Cavern of Souls. I pounce on this and Spellstutter Sprite the Emissary, and he tilts a bit. He then swings the Troll in, which winds up getting blocked by Snapcaster, and I take over from there. He concedes when I cast Jace.
Sideboard plan: -1 Logic Knot, -1 Mana Leak, -1 Cryptic Command, +1 Damnation, +1 Engineered Explosives, +1 Liliana, the Last Hope
Round 3, RG Scapeshift
This match was determined by mulligans on my part. It was quick, frustrating, and unexciting.
Sideboard plan: See round 1
Round 4, Homebrew Humans
Neither of us put any effort into these games, as we were both out of prizes. Game one, he kept a single Guost Quarter as his land and quickly lost. Game 2, I had Fatal Push plus Snapcaster Mage for his early guys and Vendilion Clique plus Mistbind to end it.
All in all, I was impressed by Jace being able to win the game by itself round 1, but acutely felt the absence of more counterspells vs Scapeshift. I’ve usually had 1-3 Spell Snare in my decks, which would’ve been excellent at many points (would’ve helped resolve the Spellstutter Sprite R1G1, or stopped multiple Farseek R3). I wonder if the Dismember is really even needed, as the rest of the removal seemed like enough, especially with the Snapcaster Mages. I was hoping to squeeze in a pair of Spell Snare going forward, though maybe we only want one. The other thing I encountered, was having multiple dead cards on the library from Jace, but no way to get rid of them. There was many turns where I was Brainstorming and just putting back two Bitterblossoms, or Thoughtseize and extra land. I don’t think we need more fetch lands, but it’s something to be aware off. Brainstorm doesn’t feel as broken when you only see one new card each time.
I wish I had faced some more mainstream decks, but that’s the diversity of modern I guess.
Agree that more fetch lands would be bad in the current build, but jace, the mind sculptor needs them to be more powerful. If you are running 3-4, although it is perhaps blasphemous to state this, dropping some bitterblossoms may be a good idea...
Well explained @ChainVeil! This is good tech for tokens especially, as well as any other deck out there. Always look at your curve and pay attention to what you ideally want to play. @tarotplz had a similar explanation; if something feels "clunky" it's likely not ideal for the curve.
To answer your question about wanting more than 4 Snapcasters, have you ever played Jace Vyrn's Prodigy and Snapcaster in the same deck? It's generally not very good to have too many flashback effects in your deck because you end up eating your entire graveyard and it makes you super soft to Rest in Peace. Normally I wouldn't bring in RIP against a deck like this, but if I see Snaps and this dude? RIP is 100% coming in. If you really want more than 4 Snapcasters, just throw in a JVP or 2.
Agreed. watch out; Grixis delver is a meta deck and when we start to be solved by typical meta solutions (i.e. RIP), we begin to lose quickly. We need to be somewhat difficult to side-board against; otherwise there is no future for this deck.
Would Eldrazi Displacer be any good in this list? So many of the cards have come enter the battlefield effects.
I would say no. Displacer really needs eldrazi temple to be super effective, which faeries CANNOT run; another colourless land would be crippling to our mana base.
so I've been thinking of possibly going this route with Modern. I play BUG Delver in Legacy and I love it. But what I imagined for Grixis Delver is not even close to what everyone is running modern. Without free ways to protect Delver (i.e. Force of Will and Daze) it's almost impossible for you to drop him on 1. You are just walking into a kill spell. I feel the way to mitigate this is to run discard spells, that way you can go turn 1 Thoughtseize or Inquisition, take the removal spell, play Delver on 2 and hope to have spell pierce or Spell snare in case they draw another removal spell or have multiples. The thing is, I notice almost no one is running hand disruption. Another idea I had was possibly not running the big delve dudes and running Bobs to keep your hand full of interaction. I've never played Delver in Modern, but in all honesty it just seems like a worse Death's Shadow. Someone please convince me lol. I want to like Delver.
Depending on the deck you're up against, removal against a delver isn't so bad, as it takes removal out of their hand for when you cast a big delve threat. That being said, a turn 1 serum, then a turn 2 delver to ensure it flips, the hold up counter magic turn 2 for a spell pierce. As stated, it depends on the deck you are facing, and whether you are on the draw or play. Removing a delver might mean they miss their creature drop or sorcery spell, potentially wasting their turn, and spell, on an unflipped delver.
evolve is a painfully slow mechanic to try and abuse. If you focus on the counters, add black, use winding constrictor. Find some cards that enter with counters and build from there (ex. servant of the scale). Recommend dropping blue, add a discard package for protecting creatures. Black gives you access to better removal. If you like to proliferate, and will not drop blue, use tezzeret's gambit and bioshift will save those counters for you, or get you surprise lethal damage.
I see nearly 0 Opt in your lists, but Thought Scour. The Mill 2 is really better than Scry 1 ?
Thanks <3
Those larger finishers are better in the UR tempo decks, with delve, tasigur, the golden fang and gurmag angler come out a lot faster (see my response on thought scour).
Haven't used chart a course in delver, but it's a house in faeries. My would guess is that it would not be very good, since delver is a tempo deck, our hands are often full already. Chart a course would have to replace a counter spell or removal, which are way more important.
The mill 2 gives resources for delve threats and snapcaster mage. opt is good at making your sideboard more effective, as it 'reduces' deck size, but again, what are you taking out for it?
When I first started playing it, I main phased opt and always cursed silently (or loudly) whenever I did and realized my misplay. You're not alone. serum visions is 'better' for certain decks because it digs deeper. Faeries like to play at instant speed, which serum is not; opt is a good choice for those running more counter spells. Also, remand is not the worst. far // away should come out first IMO, I presume it's there to reuse SS, or replace with familiar's ruse. Agree with the order of improvement with land, CC, but for land, you may be able to get away without creeping tar pit right away. I recommend snapcaster mage over clique initially, because tiago has more uses outside of faeries, in case you ever change your mind about the deck.
What is everyone's opinion on Vendilion Clique? It's one of the 'sacred cows' of Faeries, and I do think it is good, but I'm of the mind that it's disruption is a little too slow for modern right now. Would it be better to run a Liliana in it's place, or maybe even something else? Also, what do people think of playing Field of Ruin? I've seen it replace Ghost Quarter and Tectonic Edge in some deck lists and was wondering if it would make it's way into this archetype. There's so many things I want to try in this deck, but I don't have MtGO right now, so my testing is restricted to just one night a week and the occasional game with friends at draft.
Clique is good against certain decks; not sure you want to go down all of them, as they add to the faerie count. Best way to check, is do you side it out a lot? Noticed you sided both out against soul sisters, but how about other games not listed above?
As for field of ruin, I think it's too slow at a key time. Bad to use when trying to keep shields up early (when it is arguably most effective), it can mean not resolving a cryptic later on. LD is less important late game when we can afford to pay for field of ruin.
Ok, will try to fit in one more dragon.
Ah, and I've been reading the thread from the start and seeing the discussions.
Got another question.. I've seen a few people at the thread try the Combustible Gearhulk.. and it has positive and negative comments. Is it good to add the card as a single replacing one titan? Or is the Gearhulk a bad card for this deck?
Agree with @Dhakra, combustible gearhulk is not nearly as good as inferno titan; one of the main reasons is that an opponent is making a choice for you, which will never be the choice you really want.
What do people think of the interaction of glissa the traitor and walking balista?
Depends on the deck. The interaction you are referring to between glissa, the traitor and ballista is that, assuming you have a counter multiplier, you use counters on the ballista to kill a creature, get it back, cast it X = 2 for a 2/2 ballista? The interaction isn't terrible, but it depends on what is leaving to make room for Glissa, which would have to be worse than a chandra's pyrohelix each turn.
You can also take away their turn 2 or whatever with a turn 1 discard. The most recent delver lists that made top 8 in major events had 3-4 IoKs in them. Im running 3 right now and i'm very happy since it makes control/burn a better match up for me.
I agree discard is good against those match-ups. Depends on your meta. In other match-ups, those later game kozileks hurt; I hate having dead cards and as luck would have it, I seem to always draw them when I don't need them.
I have been working on a GB Rock build, and have been testing Kitesail Freebooter. The guy is great in the deck. Great early game opener. Its definitely a tempo play. It got me thinking...I used to play delver before Tasigur existed. Is kitesail a tempo card that delver could use? His evasion fits the delver play style and IMO is what really pushes the card. Thinking of a grixis delver build with him in it. Delver would probably be good in my meta as well. Struggling with my midrange builds at the moment. Lots of big decks in my meta, Eldrazi, Scapeshift, Tron, etc.
TL/DR: Is Delver still a tempo deck? Or is it more midrangy these days? And thoughts on kitesail freebooter to support tempo play?
It is difficult to explain how delver is different from mid-range, other than to say we win by virtual card advantage and not ramping to larger threats like a mid-range deck. There are a number of articles on virtual card advantage if googled, that are an interesting read. Every time we wipe away an opponents resource at instant speed, it's like they never had a turn, and we gained another draw; remand is a super good example of this.
Kitesail has a good effect, evasive, on a stick, but what do you take out for it? If you run discard, I suppose that, but kitesail has to take early game removal or disruption, keeping in mind, they are almost guaranteed to get the card back. I don't run discard, I'm happier with counterspells. If someone has used it, hopefully they can report back.
It would be legal for Legacy, Vintage and Pauper, but for Modern, it depends on HOW they print it. If they print it in Standard then its legal for Modern. If they print a Pioneer set only, then I presume it is exclusive of modern, however, in the end, WOTC can do whatever they want.
I agree; a lot of the tier one meta (i.e. humans) makes vapor snag useless. However, it feels REAL GOOD against zombie fish and hollow ones. It IS a great tempo card to get those bits of incremental damage in, but it's so meta dependent that it belongs in a side board; and there are better cards that belong in your sideboard.
Agree that more fetch lands would be bad in the current build, but jace, the mind sculptor needs them to be more powerful. If you are running 3-4, although it is perhaps blasphemous to state this, dropping some bitterblossoms may be a good idea...
Agreed. watch out; Grixis delver is a meta deck and when we start to be solved by typical meta solutions (i.e. RIP), we begin to lose quickly. We need to be somewhat difficult to side-board against; otherwise there is no future for this deck.
I would say no. Displacer really needs eldrazi temple to be super effective, which faeries CANNOT run; another colourless land would be crippling to our mana base.
Depending on the deck you're up against, removal against a delver isn't so bad, as it takes removal out of their hand for when you cast a big delve threat. That being said, a turn 1 serum, then a turn 2 delver to ensure it flips, the hold up counter magic turn 2 for a spell pierce. As stated, it depends on the deck you are facing, and whether you are on the draw or play. Removing a delver might mean they miss their creature drop or sorcery spell, potentially wasting their turn, and spell, on an unflipped delver.
Those larger finishers are better in the UR tempo decks, with delve, tasigur, the golden fang and gurmag angler come out a lot faster (see my response on thought scour).
Haven't used chart a course in delver, but it's a house in faeries. My would guess is that it would not be very good, since delver is a tempo deck, our hands are often full already. Chart a course would have to replace a counter spell or removal, which are way more important.
The mill 2 gives resources for delve threats and snapcaster mage. opt is good at making your sideboard more effective, as it 'reduces' deck size, but again, what are you taking out for it?
Clique is good against certain decks; not sure you want to go down all of them, as they add to the faerie count. Best way to check, is do you side it out a lot? Noticed you sided both out against soul sisters, but how about other games not listed above?
As for field of ruin, I think it's too slow at a key time. Bad to use when trying to keep shields up early (when it is arguably most effective), it can mean not resolving a cryptic later on. LD is less important late game when we can afford to pay for field of ruin.
Agree with @Dhakra, combustible gearhulk is not nearly as good as inferno titan; one of the main reasons is that an opponent is making a choice for you, which will never be the choice you really want.
Depends on the deck. The interaction you are referring to between glissa, the traitor and ballista is that, assuming you have a counter multiplier, you use counters on the ballista to kill a creature, get it back, cast it X = 2 for a 2/2 ballista? The interaction isn't terrible, but it depends on what is leaving to make room for Glissa, which would have to be worse than a chandra's pyrohelix each turn.
I agree discard is good against those match-ups. Depends on your meta. In other match-ups, those later game kozileks hurt; I hate having dead cards and as luck would have it, I seem to always draw them when I don't need them.
It is difficult to explain how delver is different from mid-range, other than to say we win by virtual card advantage and not ramping to larger threats like a mid-range deck. There are a number of articles on virtual card advantage if googled, that are an interesting read. Every time we wipe away an opponents resource at instant speed, it's like they never had a turn, and we gained another draw; remand is a super good example of this.
Kitesail has a good effect, evasive, on a stick, but what do you take out for it? If you run discard, I suppose that, but kitesail has to take early game removal or disruption, keeping in mind, they are almost guaranteed to get the card back. I don't run discard, I'm happier with counterspells. If someone has used it, hopefully they can report back.