MTG Salvation

I still fail to see the argument that it warps games. If a player gets a god draw then they have a great chance to win the game... THATS UNHEARD OF IN MAGIC!!!!! BAN EVERYTHING!!!!

I've heard skullclamp, lightning greaves, mana crypt, mana vault, sol ring all mentioned throughout this thread at least one time. As soon as those go there will be the same people looking for a card that someone beats them with a couple of times and run to make the case that no one should be allowed to use it against them.

Degenerate decks seems to be the argument to get rid of Sol ring, well don't build them and don't play with those who insist on only playing with them. This isn't a tourney setting, you aren't being forced to play against a certain individual, grow a pair and let them know that you just don't like to play with spikes in a casual game.

If you are a spike, then go to fnm find saturday and sunday tournaments whatever you need to fill your must win at any cost. Some people simply can't believe that a game of magic can be played with fun decks and if they aren't as cutthroat as possible its not magic. You know what one of my commanders is? phelddagrif, why? Because I think its absolutely hilarious to play a purple hippo and politics can be potentially hilarious with him!

Quote from Destructor

It could be the same case with Necropotence in some 60-card decks, most people who haven't dealt with it before don't pay attention to it, and don't consider they lost to the enchantment, but that they lost to the barrage of Corrupts and Consume Spirits flying at their heads turn after turn, even when those cards were drawn off the enchantment.

Sol Ring is a degenerate mana accel no matter how you slice it, you're basically Time walking people if they don't deal with it right away, and yes, casting something two turns early, specially the first three turns of the game can seal your victory against most people, specially those who think that commander is just for playing cards that have converted mana costs above 7 or 8.


For each play you put as an example of Sol Ring being just a mediocre version of a land that won't turn the balance of the game and isn't required to give a Commander deck some competitive edge, there are at least two counter examples I can come with, showing that Sol Ring is definitely a card that's way off above the curve, because it enables one to play their deck two turns earlier than those who don't have it.

And thats where the 2 sides see difficulties I guess for this particular argument.

One meta plays with some different interactive decks and the other seems to be just spikes playing I win turn 4 but with Sol ring I can win turn 3 so it's broken in my meta. Thats where every argument seems to be going, look some guy took off and combo'd before I could combo so this card is too broken but some guy that gets a baron sengir out a little earlier in his vampire commander build he did because he could then maybe its not so threatening.

Quote from Destructor

And what happens if the combo deck is the only one that bozo the combofiend brought to the table then, you just ban him from playing again in your group, ban his whole deck as it's unfun to play against?


Every creature with shroud, protection or hexproff laugh at the face of removal, case in point, Uril, the Miststalker, good luck trying to kill it with two mere mana.

I understand that there's several people who don't want to get Sol Ring banned, specially those who might have spent 10$ aquiring one or buying a 30-something $ deck to get it, it was the same thing as the people playing Jace, the Mind Sculptor (Nice card to power on turn 2 with the Ring, by the way...), they spent a lot of money getting the card, now they're annoyed to get it banned (Very understandable, since he was like 20$ at the cheapest, then went skyrocket past 100$)

You can always ignore the banlists in your house rules, in my group, there's this guy that plays the full affinity deck (With the Ravagers and the Disciples) and there's other that plays a deck chock full of Eldrazi that start coming as soon as turn 3 thanks to Mana Vault + Voltaic Key. I don't really see what's the big deal and the horrible catastrophe that might befall the format if they banned a card that's obviously so powerful that decks basically must run it to hope to be good in some way.

It's an alternate interpretation of what Wizards said when announcing the Commander decks: "If we don't put Sol Ring in these, people will think that they're a pile of worthless garbage." That's what happened with the decks in standard and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, everybody thought that without Jace, the deck wasn't worth anything.

But if people loves to lose against it, who am I to argue?

In your example they lose to Uril not Sol ring, its always some sob story of someone playing sol ring and one or more cards early then somehow no one dealing with the one creature that comes out early like its unstoppable or something. Yes someone casts something a turn or 2 earlier but if you and the rest of your group are so utterly powerless to stop that early creature or combo that the individual casts early (just early mind you, Sol ring doesnt give hexproof or anything else) then re-work the deck.

Try cards like diabolic edict or innocent blood. The point is if I play a Sol ring it is absolutely, positively not guaranteed to win me the game every time. I'm really sorry if someone had won a game one time because they started a little early but they still coulda played the same combo or creature if they wanted with or without a Sol ring.

Having read everything in this entire thread it comes down to is advantage something that should be banned from this format. Sol ring provides a player with an advantage, it does not win a game on its own nor does it generate a combo that breaks edh (although it may get that combo out a turn or 2 earlier). So does a card that gives a player an advantage worth banning?

If I drop a Sol ring t1 I am not guaranteed to win, plain and simple. Does it ruin other peoples combo's? Does it disrupt the game so much that when it is played everyone is panicking and so utterly distraught that they have no fun and are unable to play?

All the examples I've seen have shown Sol ring+ something to be broken and if you are just playing and mulliganing until you get one because your entire deck is dependent on it to win then your meta I believe is very different then almost any other meta that plays commander. I use it, its not essential or critical by any means but I do use it, does that fact that a card is useable come into play when bringing about bans? I've seen plenty of players use Sol ring and lose its an advantage for sure but does having it make your edh deck automatically better then any other edh deck, irregardless of how its built? I don't think so personally.

I think a question that needs to be answered chizarlicious is whether or not an edh deck can be competitive without a Sol ring in a meta that allows it (see your earlier jace comment). If a deck cannot compete with other decks based on the lone fact that you have a Sol ring then it should be banned.

Mono blue might be a good choice here and use cards like propaganda and war tax to keep any early creatures at bay. For creatures you can go a couple ways but I'd probably take advantage of the land lock and play with stuff like Rishadan Footpad and its counterparts. Rhystic Study should draw you cards here. Crystal Shard would be a good add as well to the deck and something like Defense Grid to keep them from playing instants as well. If you wanted to splash white for Ghostly Prison I'd suggest adding Gerrard Capashen for some life gain if you wanted. Isochron Scepter and Snap would be cool as well.

If you wanted to go even more different and add black enchantments, cards like Dark Suspicions and Underworld Dreams could rack up some damage.

Soltari Visionary is a good aggro choice as it can take out their enchantments can be brutal with your equipment if they don't deal with it right away, and can be brought back by Sun Titan. If board wipes are a concern for you Marshal's Anthem might be an interesting one of in the deck that can be a boon late game especially if one of your Sun Titan's is in the graveyard.

Petra Sphinx, Djinn of Wishes for creatures in the deck would take advantage of it. You could also have fun with Proteus Staff or Polymorph.

I would consider Steel Overseer over the Plague Stinger to pump your other infect guys as well as include Tezzeret's Gambit for card draw, proliferating the counters on your creatures or Umezawa's Jitte or their poison counters. No need to splash blue mana really and 2 life shouldn't be to bad to lose in an aggro deck and since your running tutelage's losing a little bit of life shouldn't trouble you too much.

I would be careful with Crypt Champion if your using Altar of Dementia as it reads that each player puts a creature into play and can potentially backfire on you. That being said for graveyard hate there are many options leyline of the void being an obvious black one and a fun budget green option is night soil which I like to use in multiplayer games.

Will update the deck list tonight, I am going to revamp it and cards like Luminarch's Ascension and Blood of the Martyr will most likely see some play, thank you for the suggestion guys please keep them coming.

For FFA group games with Vintage Restricted/Banned list. Want to focus on keeping others from attacking me with Darien, King of Kjeldor and a Soul Warden and generating additional tokens and swarming after using a planeswalker ultimate or pumping with a Leonin Sun Standard. Was considering Mirrorweave as a kill option as well.

As usual any and all input welcome, ty in advance

Spot removal is used in my meta mostly due to the high amount of recurrsion that each deck tends to pack regrowth gaea's blessing some kinda combo around sun titan and eternal witness. Remove from game cards tend to be used like Return to Dust and Swords to Plowshares to slow or cripple an opponent and make them a more open target then you or balance the board state a little.

Our group games as of late have been mostly 3 player FFA with a kinda fun mix as one player tends to be more of a spike-johnny mix, one johnny and i tend to the timmy-johnny side withdecks and play with Verdant Force and the like. Even then though sometimes we break the mold and shake things up and try to do something different just to see what happens.

Sure the spike ends up winning more then we do but when we pull off a silly combo or just smash with some big creature and win its worth it for us playing that night. In the past we used to do a 5 player FFA that was combo-centric but still was fun to play in because we tried to utilize high casting cost cards to win with components most wouldn't include like plague wind natural affinity but coupled with opalescence titania's song and would all be played on one turn as opposed to some turn 2, I win cause I found this one disgusting combo type play. We were the same people each time and even with each person haveing more then 10 decks to an upwards of 50, you still eventually get the 'oh, its the chimera lifeline deck' or something.

I think each meta is different and how each group chooses to play can be fun and winning with cards like wall of kelp and sorrow's path can be more of the focus for our group then I want to make a deck that wins 99% of the time. But thats just how we play, sometimes I look at whats in play and say what the heck is he going for there and just let them fire off just to see what kind of rediculous combo they thought up is, to each his own I don't begrudge the spikes playing as they do its what's fun for them.

1-2 Null Brooch might be good to have in here as it will clear your hand if needed for Bridge and will be a deterrent for some artifact/enchantment removal. War's Toll has some potential but can get you in trouble quick if they remove your Ensnaring Bridge.

good call on the Tezzeret's Gambit Scumbling1 and I replaced the mines with a Scroll Rack because I have an extra and don't want to move any top's around. Mirrorworks is a good call and I've wanted to play with Bosh, Iron Golem but really couldn't fit him in anywhere Malph. Lol I bet your looking forward to Stacks as well. Updated the original post, had mines in because i could swap with welders but realized I had better targets to keep them open for. Browbeat's are out and Gambit's are in. Any other suggestions are welcome, keep em coming.

heh, I was talking to my friend earlier and he had suggested that Smokestack wouldn't be to bad at all as well. Possibly Tangle Wire and some of the cards like Ensnaring and Winter Orb sound great Killem2 will have to think about what I should switch around but will change my original post in a bit after I decide where to go with this. If you can think of any others feel free to suggest away thx. Decks starting to take a more control-ish feel to it but will see where it goes, any and all input is welcome.