Really appreciate the feedback! I'm definitely going to consider making these changes as you made some really good points. Yeah twincast is more realistically 4 mana for something useful, I just love the versatility mostly. I am definitely going to run more fetchs, it has mostly been a cost factor at this point haha.
I might take out two mesmeric orbs to put 2 more visions in. I'm not sure mesmeric is honestly that consistent. In terms of trap, it's better to keep them and stop fetches if nothing else. Preventing a fetch is actually a pretty detrimental thing before turn 3 in most decks (for example, preventing a fetch in burn is basically gg on t1 or 2). Twincast has been a true mvp. It provides so much utility to the deck, counter a counter late, cast 2-3 big mill spells (twincasting a trap is the greatest mill feeling ever), or even just doubling up on path's or crucial extractions. 2 snaps is also added for versatility. I was running four but found it too mana intensive, so two feels about right tbh. Let me know what you guys think.
New to the dredge primer. I've been brewing a lot with dredge since shadows over innistrad came out, and came up with a list that is similar to how the dredge variant in legacy works. I have not seen this idea anywhere else, but I'm sure the idea has been discussed somewhere.
The main goal of the deck is to simple dump your library into the yard as fast as possible. I've gold-fished and done this by turn 3 (like 40 cards in gy), but the list has consistency issues, and the numbers need adjustments ( i'm pretty sure this is not 60 cards). Additionally, It needs some sort of grind plan to allow to disrupt the opponents game plan long enough for us to combo off. sideboard ideas would be appreciated.
I'll walk through how the "Magical Christmas Land" scenario plays out. You start by casting faithless looting and getting a dredger in the yard, or using Insolent Neonate to dredge and hopefully hit a second dredger. After that, you use things like tormenting voice and Goblin Lore to dredge a large portion of your deck. By turn 3, you play your third land and play a looting from the yard, and hopefully have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard at this point. Keep in mind, you are also always dredging on all your draw steps, or doing this when appropriate.
Now this is where the combo comes in. On turn 4, after you have a large portion of your deck in the graveyard, you pass and keep up 3 mana. At the end of your opponents second main phase, you bring Drownyard Temple from your graveyard into play, and then trigger bloodghast. When it's their end step, Prized Amalgam triggers, and you return them into play. Now it's your turn, and you can dredge on your draw step if you feel it's necessary. You then cast 2 gravecrawlers from your graveyard, triggering vengevines. You then move to combat, and proceed to attack with bloodghasts, vengevines, and Prized Amalgams for a hopefully lethal amount of damage. Since we're still assuming this is magical christmas land, you have the ability to attack with 36 power, which should be lethal. On a side note, this deck does have the ability to have mini combos. Bringing back 3 bloodghast and 3 amalgam is sometimes good enough depending on the match up.
This of course is not going to happen every game. The list is going to be clunky, and you might have to use life from the loam to get your third land sometimes. If there is someway to give it more of a grind game, or improve its consistency, then it might be a thing. But until then, it's more of a concept than anything. Additionally, like a lot of all in dredge lists, graveyard hate hurts this deck a ton, so keep that in mind. thoughts?
I like this list, but still am unsure about the drownyard. I actually thought about putting one in my deck but the 3 mana cost to bring it back for a colorless mana seems like it wouldn't be worth. I get the ability to combo on their turn, but honestly I don't think it really matters that much with this deck. Leaving 3 land open would be good if it also allowed you the option of playing some instant spells to interact with your opponent, but merely comboing on their turn brings creatures back to the battlefield that can't block either way. The big benefit I guess is they wouldn't be susceptible to burn spells. Even then, it would still only be a last resort situation. But I do like the build otherwise. Have you thought about wild guess instead of goblin lore? It's two R but it allows you to selectively discard.
Did not go well. 1-3 in a field of 14 but people started dropping quick so I got a round 3 bye. Round 1 0-2 vs burn. I could not get going in either game, either no land or all land. Round 2 red/black/blue, got running well but fell short in the end again by 1 turn in both games, never saw tron. Round 4 was against soul sisters, by the time i got cooking i was dead. The deck needs either more counter or more removal. I am hesitant to remove the standard mill for counter/removal but that may be what to do.
You need a dedicated mill package for tron. I would suggest running something like the following:
Does kitchen finks persist trigger bring back prized amalgam?
Yeah it does technically. But the curve is 2 in this deck, so finks may not be the most useful card. Interesting idea though for sure. I like the idea of doing an undying combo (of course the second i do it, my opponent would just path to exile all of my cool *****).
I played this deck a year ago and absolutely loved it. I still don't know why I sold it, because it was so much fun... I am buying back in.
So I am looking at the newest tech and I have some questions:
I see Prized Amalgam and Insolant Neonate in these lists. Are these cards just that good? No more Gurmag Angler? I see some folks are talking about the mana being kind of awkward... is this normally the case?
Has Darkblast fallen out of favor?
I have always been a Lightning Bolt guy over Lightning Axe. I am just that guy.
Anyway, thanks for your time, and thanks for keeping a fun deck alive (or undead).
The amalgams are a good addition. They are a slower vengevine, but easier to get on the battlefield. Neonate's are a great addition but by no means dispositive of the deck's performance. You do need to cast two creature spells to get vines out, and with a mana curve of around 2 these guys are a good option. A body that allows you to discard, draw, and helps vine out for 1. Pretty sweet deal. In terms of the lightning bolt, the deck focuses around using your graveyard as an additional hand. So cards that allow you to selectively discard while also receiving another benefit is huge. Bolts are still great though and will work really well.
Angler is still viable but it really depends on your deck. If you honestly want to focus on the graveyard, there are not going to be a lot of options to delve none-grave yard functioning cards. Angler is still a beast though, and that build is still viable (well, as viable as a dredgevine deck can be).
This deck really has a lot of options and play styles. I saw someone in here not running any actual dredge and instead focusing on the discard which seemed like a cool idea.
Personally, snapcaster is not all hes cracked up to be, as far as mill goes. Paying an extra 2 for your spells isn't great.
1 Liliana is also just bad. The card is good when you can build around it, and expect to see it. Here, itll just show up sometimes, and it wont be consistent enough to matter.
Not a fan of all the remands/seize/inq split. Either play some counterspells, some removal, or some discard, but splitting it up like that doesn't seem great. If you're playing white, just play 4 path to exile and call it a day.
You should probably play the set of visions of beyond and thought scour.
Not sure about the split on extractions, but its probably fine.
I don't like twincast much here, trapmakers snare, or more mill spells might be better.
Thus, more orbs, breakings, etc are all probably better. I'd rather run some of these over the 3 mind funerals.
Yeah, but you can cast another Archive Trap for free if they search their library! That's the whole idea! You could just as easily save yourself by flashing a Visions of Beyond for the win too. It's not like t3 (or even t4) on curve land drops you're consistently looking at winning the game with mill or anything.
I don't think you can actually use snap to pay for Archive Trap's alternative mana cost. I think you would have to pay its cmc.
Hmm, I'm not opposed to it. Which new cards specifically? Most of the madness stuff I saw didn't really fit as well. The prized amalgam seems like it might be good.
Yeah, I was basically considering Amalgam and maybe some Neonates to help getting things to the graveyard.
Btw, I only realized you were playing the combo too after I've already posted haha. How are you feeling about Vexing Devil on your list?
Btw, I tried Golgari Thug for a while and it felt a bit unimpressive. Even with the combo on my list I just prefered to mill more cards with Stinkweed Imp and Golgari Grave Troll.
The vexing devils are pretty awesome. It is a good early aggression tool and is a cheap mana cost to get vine on the board. He works well with golgari thug as a chump blocker to replay it. Devil is a little less viable now that I took out varolz. He used to be a great scavenge target.
I like the options having a thug provides. I actually dont run the grave troll. I tried it out and while I like his dredge numbers, I feel like stinkweed & thug are a more viable option as I can hard cast them if I need to depending on how the game is going. I'll likely never cast a grave troll and even if I did it isn't that great of a card on the battlefield.
Personally, snapcaster is not all hes cracked up to be, as far as mill goes. Paying an extra 2 for your spells isn't great.
1 Liliana is also just bad. The card is good when you can build around it, and expect to see it. Here, itll just show up sometimes, and it wont be consistent enough to matter.
Not a fan of all the remands/seize/inq split. Either play some counterspells, some removal, or some discard, but splitting it up like that doesn't seem great. If you're playing white, just play 4 path to exile and call it a day.
You should probably play the set of visions of beyond and thought scour.
Not sure about the split on extractions, but its probably fine.
I don't like twincast much here, trapmakers snare, or more mill spells might be better.
Thus, more orbs, breakings, etc are all probably better. I'd rather run some of these over the 3 mind funerals.
I really appreciate your input. Yeah, I wasn't sure about the liliana. I definitely am not sold on mind funeral either. It just feels like such a let down most of the time and wipes out most of my mana.
I do however like the twins. I can usually play them to counter a counterspell or otherwise copy an archive trap for at least a 26 mill for 2U. I'm going to run 2 less snaps, get rid of liliana and mind funerals and add the playset of visions and thoughts. Sounds like it will be more reliable that way.
Hmm, I'm not opposed to it. Which new cards specifically? Most of the madness stuff I saw didn't really fit as well. The prized amalgam seems like it might be good.
Switch out all of the check lands for a set of Verdant Catacombs. Add in Prized Amalgam and Bloodghast, and get rid of the combo. That should make your keeps more stable and graveyard recursion more reliable.
What do you think about adding in a couple sin prodder? Too slow?
Hmm, I'm not opposed to it. Which new cards specifically? Most of the madness stuff I saw didn't really fit as well. The prized amalgam seems like it might be good.
Switch out all of the check lands for a set of Verdant Catacombs. Add in Prized Amalgam and Bloodghast, and get rid of the combo. That should make your keeps more stable and graveyard recursion more reliable.
I really like this idea. I ran bloodghast initially but didn't get much out of him. I think the amalgam is a huge addition - basically a poor man's vengevine!
Hmm, I'm not opposed to it. Which new cards specifically? Most of the madness stuff I saw didn't really fit as well. The prized amalgam seems like it might be good.
Creatures
Spells
Lands
Sideboard
I might take out two mesmeric orbs to put 2 more visions in. I'm not sure mesmeric is honestly that consistent. In terms of trap, it's better to keep them and stop fetches if nothing else. Preventing a fetch is actually a pretty detrimental thing before turn 3 in most decks (for example, preventing a fetch in burn is basically gg on t1 or 2). Twincast has been a true mvp. It provides so much utility to the deck, counter a counter late, cast 2-3 big mill spells (twincasting a trap is the greatest mill feeling ever), or even just doubling up on path's or crucial extractions. 2 snaps is also added for versatility. I was running four but found it too mana intensive, so two feels about right tbh. Let me know what you guys think.
I like this list, but still am unsure about the drownyard. I actually thought about putting one in my deck but the 3 mana cost to bring it back for a colorless mana seems like it wouldn't be worth. I get the ability to combo on their turn, but honestly I don't think it really matters that much with this deck. Leaving 3 land open would be good if it also allowed you the option of playing some instant spells to interact with your opponent, but merely comboing on their turn brings creatures back to the battlefield that can't block either way. The big benefit I guess is they wouldn't be susceptible to burn spells. Even then, it would still only be a last resort situation. But I do like the build otherwise. Have you thought about wild guess instead of goblin lore? It's two R but it allows you to selectively discard.
This is what I thought the Urza mill would look like tbh.
Yeah it does technically. But the curve is 2 in this deck, so finks may not be the most useful card. Interesting idea though for sure. I like the idea of doing an undying combo (of course the second i do it, my opponent would just path to exile all of my cool *****).
The amalgams are a good addition. They are a slower vengevine, but easier to get on the battlefield. Neonate's are a great addition but by no means dispositive of the deck's performance. You do need to cast two creature spells to get vines out, and with a mana curve of around 2 these guys are a good option. A body that allows you to discard, draw, and helps vine out for 1. Pretty sweet deal. In terms of the lightning bolt, the deck focuses around using your graveyard as an additional hand. So cards that allow you to selectively discard while also receiving another benefit is huge. Bolts are still great though and will work really well.
Angler is still viable but it really depends on your deck. If you honestly want to focus on the graveyard, there are not going to be a lot of options to delve none-grave yard functioning cards. Angler is still a beast though, and that build is still viable (well, as viable as a dredgevine deck can be).
This deck really has a lot of options and play styles. I saw someone in here not running any actual dredge and instead focusing on the discard which seemed like a cool idea.
Interested to hear how it went and what deck you ran.
I was actually thinking about trying this. It seems too susceptible to aggro and land destruction and without tron there is no likely option to win.
I don't think you can actually use snap to pay for Archive Trap's alternative mana cost. I think you would have to pay its cmc.
The vexing devils are pretty awesome. It is a good early aggression tool and is a cheap mana cost to get vine on the board. He works well with golgari thug as a chump blocker to replay it. Devil is a little less viable now that I took out varolz. He used to be a great scavenge target.
I like the options having a thug provides. I actually dont run the grave troll. I tried it out and while I like his dredge numbers, I feel like stinkweed & thug are a more viable option as I can hard cast them if I need to depending on how the game is going. I'll likely never cast a grave troll and even if I did it isn't that great of a card on the battlefield.
I really appreciate your input. Yeah, I wasn't sure about the liliana. I definitely am not sold on mind funeral either. It just feels like such a let down most of the time and wipes out most of my mana.
I do however like the twins. I can usually play them to counter a counterspell or otherwise copy an archive trap for at least a 26 mill for 2U. I'm going to run 2 less snaps, get rid of liliana and mind funerals and add the playset of visions and thoughts. Sounds like it will be more reliable that way.
What do you think about adding in a couple sin prodder? Too slow?
I really like this idea. I ran bloodghast initially but didn't get much out of him. I think the amalgam is a huge addition - basically a poor man's vengevine!