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  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Thanks for your response @Nico3010

    The play patterns seem similar at a glance to Grixis Death's Shadow. Is that true in your knowledge?

    It depends a lot on the build. Mine is very grindy (imagine a midrange deck that plays everything at instant speed and replaces discard with counterspells), but others are more shadow-like. The main difference between delver and gds is that you always have to try and get cheap damage turn by turn while gds relies on few massive life swings.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Hi all. Long time lurker. I've been out of modern for a while. Is Delver still decent? I'm basically looking to have a deck that I can keep around that won't get banned.
    The deck is, of course, not a tier. But the format is so vast that it still rewards the knowledge of the deck more than it's actual power level, so yes, if you can pilot it very well, you can still have good results with it. The meta is not great at the moment, but it isn't even terrible, so, after mastering it, you can expect an average winrate around 45% in my opinion, which is pretty good for an untiered deck.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    no one talking about new cards and what can we add to our delver decks? anyone tried the new pyromancer instead of young pyro? what about the ashiok dream render? it can be a huge gas for our delve creatures and a good answer against graveyard focused deck as well, plus the passive ability. I'm trying 2x seasoned pyro insted of young pyro, huge card, even if it does not fit super well in our deck

    I'm testing a 2-2 split between the two pyromancers and I feel great with it. I also loved two fiery islet replacing the fast lands I used to run. I'm also a fan of bedevil as a 1 of to replace dreadbore. It's heavy on the mana base but way better than dreadbore. For the side, I'm loving plague engineer and trying out one flusterstorm, which has performed decently but didn't shine. I don't like the new ashiok because I'm super light on delve threats (only one tasigur) and it feels too slow against graveyard decks, especially hoogakvine, which is still nearly unbeatable if it has a decent-good start.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Discard is bad in tempo, as I stated shortly above. So I'd cut the 4 ioks and add 2 kcommands. I'd also replace the 3rd push with the 4th opt and change the counter base, going with 3 mana leaks, 2 spell snares and 1 dispel. For the last slot I'd add a fatal push.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Because of how a tempo deck works compared to midrange. The latter has a tap-out strategy that aims to destroy the opponent's resources and, afterwards, win the attrition game. Tempo, instead, is a draw-go strategy that wants to land a threat AND THEN protect it while it hits the opponent. The disadvantage is that it's harder to protect something than killing it, of course (and also that counterspells in modern aren't great), but the advantage is that the opponent wastes mana playing the spell you counter (or the creature you kill) basically making he lose one turn and bringing you one turn closer to the win. Discard spells, on the other side, don't make the opponent waste any mana and leave you unprotected from topdecks.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver

    I'm currently thinking about having a second modern deck and from all options I found Grixis Delver very interesting for his potential to improve over time. However, since it's not a cheap deck, i want to start with a budget version. Wich version de delver deck you think I shoud start with considering the amount of cards in common, the price and how competitive it is?

    I see three options : Mono U Delver, UB and UR


    I started with UR back in 2015 and slowly upgraded it with kolaghan's command, snapcasters and the mana base, but it's a pretty decent starting point. Also, the fetchless mana base from UR storm is super fine for the deck and very cheap. I'd go for a playset of young pyromancers and abbots of kheral keep for a budget creature shell and then replace the abbots with snapcasters, one pyro with a vendilion clique and then add the delve threats. While you are UR, I'd go with roast and harvest pyre as "hard" removals and then of course replace them with 2 pushes and 2 terminates. Last thing I'm sure about, don't fall in either of the cryptic or discard temptation. They are both wrong choices (I couldn't just see a couple of seizes in the side, but that's all). Good luck!
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Quote from Muk »
    Have any of you considered light up the stage in this deck? It makes for a cheap 2 for 1 in most cases, and it’s a sorcery for delver and pyro. The only thing is that it doesn’t work well with counterspells, so you’d most likely want to run discard spells to make it worth playing, but I think that’s not an issue considering discard spells are better than counterspells right now in modern with all the aether vial/cavern of souls decks and decks with better counterspells of their own. Idk, just a thought. It reminded me a little of Treasure Cruise, with not nearly the same power level of course, but potential for being a 1 mana draw 2 in most cases. Let me know what you guys think!

    I've tested it for a while. It seemed cool but often too clunky and I ended up cutting it. As for the discard spells, they don't fit our game plan at all since we want to be tempo/draw go. If you want to go tap out and then be synergistic with discard, delver becomes bad and you should play mardu pyro instead. Of course this is just my opinion, but I've not been greatly impressed by it.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Cryptic is too intensive for the 90% of delver decks but it depends on your manabase and the number of blue sources. I'm not sure about the maths behind it but I believe you can find it on line for sure. Izzet charm was a card I used to play when I was straight UR, but in Grixis you have way too many good cards and stormchaser shines only in an all in prowess deck, while in Grixis you want to remain mana open as much as possible and play only instant speed. If you like the card I suggest you Temur Prowess with baubles, mutagenic growth and become immense (rip probe). I like to experiment too, but I have to say rarely I've been impressed with new cards. The last ones I fell in love with were the obvious fatal push and opt. I recently tried a couple dire fleet poisoners as additional removals that could also race and one risk factor, but I haven't been impressed by either of those. I think my next attempt will be a 12 cantrips shell (I'm currently on only 2 thought scours and 2 delve threats, but sometimes I miss the race a t2 angler gives), so we'll see
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on UB Tempo/Pirates
    Thank you for answering!
    When I first began listing the deck it was similar to yours, however I changed the creature suite and reduced it too for some reasons. First of all, as a Modern Grixis Delver player, according to my play style I felt the need for a card advantage engine and so immediately added Ruin Rider, which is slow and hard to protect, but if protected in the proper way destroys every grindy opponent.
    Then I cut Fathom Fleet Captain because it doesn't fit my idea of tempo, forcing me to tap a non irrelevant amount of mana in my turn, which I accept to do only for high impact cards like the aforementioned RR, which is the only non-instant speed card along with Siren Stormtamer (which is a one-drop) and Chart a Course.
    Hostage Taker was in my sideboard against midrange and aggro at first, but I decided to cut it because it felt too slow and clunky. It's a 4 mana, sorcery speed play that, although being a potential 3x1 in the mid to late game, risks too often to be a temporary Ravenous Chupacabra and therefore too slow (and weak) for a tempo deck. I'd love it to be playable, but I just think it's not good enough.
    Kitesail Freebooter was originally another 4x if my deck and was so until rotation. However, it has always been the worst card of the deck and, as soon as I noticed I had to update the list because it didn't make results at all in the new meta, it was the first card i cut: against control it was a 2x1 but didn't apply enough pressure giving the opponent the time to kill it and recover from the tempo loss and against aggro and midrange it wasn't that relevant nor strong enough. Cutting it, In that spot Chart a Course felt good and served as the (almost) guaranteed 2x1 I needed. There, I guess it depends 100% on the play stile if you value more drawing or making the opponent discard. I like the first, but I see your point for Freebooter, it's just not a card for me.
    As for Obsession, I like it, but the setup it needs to be protected (Dive Down) seems very clunky to me and the games where you draw one but not the other or you draw them in the wrong order seem so miserable.
    The rest of your non-permanent choices seem reasonable, however I prefer a more spell centric configuration with 6 counterspells (I LOVE to be able to interact with the stack) and 6 removals (VC is a must if you don't win before turn 6 consistently, for me).
    Unfortunately, with my higher curve I had to raise the land count to 24.
    What I'm truly curious about is that Memorial to Foly. How did it work for you? Is it strong enough to outvalue the "etb tapped" drawback?
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Standard)
  • posted a message on UB Tempo/Pirates
    Hi all. With Rivals of Ixalan, as a Delver lover in both modern and legacy (only the former on paper), I've fell in love with the possibility of playing a tempo-like game plan in standard too. Unfortunately, last season, I've never been able to play the deck in a tournament, despite having bought into it as soon as I had a decent list. With GRN the deck did'n improve dramatically (with the exception of the mana base) but I think it would still be a good contender in this meta. I'll present the list and then go through the card choices.

    The mana base is pretty straightforward. At first, I played Unclaimed Territory instead of FoR, but foune out that it wad my worst land and I was never happy to see it, while FoR helps caating all but 8 spells and reduces flooding in the late game, while dealing with problematic lands and helping color screwing three color decks. I'm not entirely sure 24 lands are the right number, but with 23 I screwed too often.

    The pirates are the best available in standard. Period.
    Stormtamer is a counter with legs, which often dies to save better pieces but sometimes is just a cheap evasive threat that enables CaC and RR.
    DFP is a removal on legs against creature decks, an instant speed threat against control and sometimes as a combat trick or extra reach to close narrow games on the right spot. Definitely the most skill intensive card of the whole deck: after one entire year playing the deck, I'm often not sure I'm using it in the correct way. However, if you learn how to master it, it's definitely op.
    RR is an expansive and conditional bob but I still consider it more than playable in a shell like this. And of course is a pirate to! One if the first cards to side out against aggro, against control and midrange is at its best.
    DCS is probably the best card of the deck regardinh raw power. It's a big, evasive and instant speed threat with an etb that can single handedly buy an entire turn against every creature deck. It's drawback shouldn't be underestimated, but the etb counts as two profitabile blocks at least, so it's not a big deal.
    As for the removals and counterspells, they depend entirely on the expected meta, going up and down with VC, CD and the negate-scatter ratio, but this is what I'd probably run in an open field, given that negate is still decent against creature decks while scatter is completely useless against control and, worst case scenario, you can adjust them after sideboarding. However, if anybody finds out a better configuration, I'd love to know it.
    Opt is one of my favorite cards and I'd never run less than four in a tempo deck, while CaC proved to be the missing piece I needed in the deck, given I tried in that spot kitesail freebooter, mission briefing and radical idea always feeling something was missing. It hepls digging into lands in the erly game while havimg a painless card advantage engine in the mid to late game with the great ratio of two cards for two mana, despite being at sorcery speed.
    The side is decent, but I'm not convinced by some choices, first of all dead weight. Against aggro I miss A LOT fatal push, but DW might not be what I'm looking for. Any suggestion for a better card in that spot? Same goes for the scatter-negate split: I like the idea of being able to adjust them post board, but maybe there's no spot where we want to go 3-0 on scatter, so we might have one free slot there too. Craving and Ritual are no brainers against aggro, so I'd never cut them and Jace is amazing against control and midrange: it's unexpected and often underestimated when on board, so it's easy to ultimate it and then snowball to victory. Worst case scenario, it's a 3 mana 2/2 that offers a 2x1 or buys time, which is not bad at all.
    And with that, that's all. Thanks to everybody who had the patience to read this all. Hope the deck caught your interest and feel free to givw advices and suggestions!
    Posted in: Deck Creation (Standard)
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    He played a deck with 18 creatures and 22 lands and put delver in it(ur wizards). As a player, considering he even had great results with it, nothing to say: he's a genius. But, as a deckbuilder, I wouldn't even ask him a list for an fnm.
    Jokes aside, in my personal experience, I found both of them great and what has been umderwhelming was thought scour: it's randomness was too punishing and the chance to fuel a turbo delve threat was not worth the strain, so I run a list with only two tasigurs (and no anglers) and the playsets of both serum and opt, cutting all the scours and feel great with it, since I still can cast an easy t3 tas (but prefer it as a mid game fatty protected with counterspells or late game card advantage engine) and have other great threats like young peezy and clique.
    The card I'm trying to evaluate at the moment is risk factor, since the jump start and instant speed are both great elements but I'm not sure the 4 damage "mode" will be good enough times to force the opponent to make you draw. I tried it in a jeskai version with way more burn but got a bit disappointed, maybe as a one or two of in the grindier grixis version could be better. Any thoughts about it?
    My current list:

    And my possible changes would be -1 dispel and -1 tasigur for +2 risk factor. Any thoughts?
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Quote from Paradox Omega »
    Hey folks, not sure if any of you remember me, but I'm a YouTube content creator and Modern Grixis Delver was the first deck I ever uploaded with. I decided to come back to it with a more or less stock build. You can check out the first of 3 matches below:

    Match 1: Grixis Delver vs. Hardened Scales

    For those who can't access YouTube, you can check out the decklist below:

    Things I would change moving forward in the SB would be to add 1-2 Dispel and 1 Engineered Explosives, possibly in the place of the Molten Rains.

    I strongly believe that discard spells in the main (outside brutality that's way more than just a discard spell) are a crime against the deck, since 1) I agree with BourbonFox on the 1 drop slot and 2) discard spells are a huge tempo loss. Why don't you try and switch those two for a dispel (I run 2 in the main, but my meta does'n have many humans, so in an open one I'd rather have one) and a second terminate or ever dreadbore, which is very helpful against lilianas (overall the last hope), jaces and tron.
    I also think 26 spells are not enough and I'd cut at least the clique (even an angler) for one or two more removals or cantrips.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Quote from BourbonFox »
    Why the dropping of the fast lands. I'm not seeing the end game there.

    Because my build is kinda unusual, it's to maximize the efficiency of the 3-4 pushes (an higher than usual number) and to fill the graveyard for Tasigur since I run opt instead of thought scour. This improves the control matchup giving your cantrips more late game consistency, and the matchup against 3-4 cmc creature decks. The only matchup that becomes clearly worse is burn, but it's already so bad I find useless to try and fix it.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Quote from BourbonFox »
    What sort of flex slot moves do you all make when it comes to meta shifts? For example, Humans, do you all opt for more removal over counter or kept a stock list?

    Depending on the meta i run 12 removals and 7 counters or 13 removals and 6 counters, usually swapping the 4th fatal push with the 2nd dispel or the 1st countersquall in the main. However the most important meta change is in the manabase and creature package: in a meta full of burn and non-vial aggro I want 8 fetches, 4 shocks, 4 basics and 3 fastlands, in a land-denial/generic meta I'm happy with 10 fetches, 5 shocks and 4 basics. As for the creatures, at the moment I run only 2 delve fatties, a Vendilion Clique and 3 Young Pyromancers (with Opt instead of Thought Scour) since the number of Fatal Pushes has gone down in favor of Bolt and, in control decks, PtE. If we go back to a 3-4 mb Pushes meta, I'd certainly go back to 4-5 delve threats and Scour as my to go cantrip.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
  • posted a message on Grixis Delver
    Quote from TundraYYC »
    Quote from WrenchMind »
    Quote from TheBullwark »
    Does anyone play 20 lands? I was a fan of grixis ds but dropping your life total just isnt as good in such a fastmeta with so many decks that go wide. It got me thinking about delver since i already had all the cards lying around. Anyway back to my question. 19 lands hurts and i seem to be having mana trouble more than anything. I have been practicing on xmage and seem to be losing to my mana more than anything. Im running the azcanta version btw

    I've always played with 19 lands and it was fine IMHO, I think that Thije is correct it depends on the number of cantrips. Personally I run 9 cantrips.

    Quote from Thije »
    It also depends on the number of cantrips. I like running 19 lands in most lists.

    What I was wondering.
    Are these Dominaria cards something we want in GS Delver?
    - Wizard's retort
    - Wizard's lightning
    - Cast Down
    - Damping Sphere

    And can we consider Mishra's Bauble, to fuel delve? Or is it impacting Delver of Secrets too much in a negative way (of course it can be helpful also).

    Well I don't think that those cards are useful for us: wizard's spells really need a dedicated creature base in order to play them always with the reduced cost; Cast Down is just a worse version of Terminate and the Sphere might be tempting against tron or storm but I think it could reveal itself as a double-edged blade.
    Also the Bauble may be good but I fear that would reduce the Delver's flip dramatically, and I rather flip a Delver than look at the top card of our opponent and then draw a card.

    I think that Bauble might actually be OK, and could potentially help Delver flip if played correctly. The way I see it, T1 play Bauble + Delver. On opponents turn, crack the bauble to look at the top of your own deck, and stack your upkeep triggers according to what's on top. If it is an instant/sorcery do Delver first, otherwise draw first, and have a second chance to hit an instant/sorcery off the delver. I'm not sure what I would want to cut for it though, but it is something that could possibly work out in your favor under the right circumstances. Could be a fun little spice card that people don't see coming if you can find room for it.

    I suppose the flip side of the coin is you will likely be cutting something that would normally flip the Delver and could just see a bauble instead on a blind flip. It's tough to say for sure, I'd try it out to see what happens. I do like the idea of it potentially running out a delve fattie a turn earlier.

    Bauble is a barely playable card in Temur Delver since it doesn't reduce -that much- the flipping chances of delver and enables delirium for Traverse the Ulvenwald (tbh I wouldn't play traverse at all since it's a tempo-inefficient play), but I strongly believe it's not a good card in the Grixis version, since A) we can't recover it with kommand nor snappy, B) reduces the (blind)flip chances of Delver just for being an artifact by himself and C) you'd need to cut something and, even though the individual solts of the deck are quite personal, spell-type ratio of the deck is incredibly rigid: you need 13-15 creatures, 10-13 removals (including kommand), 4-7 counters and 8-10 cantrips and at least 26 instant-sorceries, so I'm not sure you can find room for 4 "useless" artifacts.
    Posted in: Aggro & Tempo
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