It seems like you had trouble resolving Leyline hate against GAT, Unmask is really helpful there busting through a counter wall. Do you have many grave oriented decks in your metagame? If not I would just cut Leylines for Unmask.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
I've got a comment on the budget build that was posted a few pages back: as far as I can tell, Terramorphic Expanse > Flood Plain and its ilk in any deck not running Rev or Rav duals...why choose Flood Plain?
Btw, I do think this still holds true with two-color decks, but it should be a no-brainer once Muscles are added to the build.
Budget or not, Expanse just plain doesn't work -- it puts the lands into play tapped meaning you cannot get off your first turn Brainstorm / Swords to Plowshares / Stifle / Portent / Ponder / Plated Sliver, etc. In a deck full of one drops, it doesn't work to have land coming into play tapped. If you can't afford the actual build of the deck, which admittedly isn't the cheapest Legacy deck you can put together, it probably isn't worth playing at all.
U: pay 3
Op:mhmm
U: pay another 3
Op: mhmm
U: pay another 3
Op:...terror/new last gasp/cryptic command(bounce)/goblin shock/etc etc
U:F***!!!
This is exactly why you target their creatures for trample. That way if they want the ability to fizzle, they need to 2-for-1 themselves. I don't think I like the card for this deck, but you can probably make it work.
I'm not extremely familiar with the deck (pre or post-rotation), but it seems like it'd be better if you could take more advantage of the Teachings by putting in one Pact of Negation and one Psy-blast? Even Slaughter Pact would be good if you put a tiny bit more black in the deck. Urborg would do the trick.
Also, I always considered the deck as a whole to be way more controllish. Would it be better to replace some of the aggro choices (IE: Wildspeaker) for Delays, and find room for Ponder so you can find Brine or other answers more often?
Yes but there are 3 Transmuters and only 1 Stronghold. Although you can use Stronghold multiple times. Maybe use 1 Tolaria West? Can also search for other lands like Riptide Lab or Wasteland.
There are 3 transmuters and only 1 Stronghold, but there are 4 Drakes. How often do you think it's relevant that you need to put a Drake back in the deck because you've already used all 4? I've played this deck for several months now and have yet to see such a situation. It's way better to sac the Drake and have it hang out in the graveyard until the Stronghold shows up. If in the meantime you need another Drake and find a transmuter, there's still going to be 3 Drakes in the deck.
Nightmaster, I know this thread is one of the longest ones on the Proven Competitive list, but it still is really annoying when people repeat ideas that have been discussed to death. I'll give you a brief recap on each.
One thing I was thinking about when looking at a deck was Phyrexian Dreadnought. The deck already runs the two main ways of getting a nought into play, Stifle the ability or vial in one to sacrifice in response to ability.
Dreadnought isn't even good in decks specifically designed to get him out fast just because he is so fragile -- he's a 2 card combo that dies to any kill spell or disruption as he's being played (giving your opponent a 2-for-1 in each instance). That said, this deck is definitely not one made to get him out. This deck needs every single card slot available for disruption in addition to the Drake/Horror/Stick synergy, and has no room for fetchers such as Tinker Mage or the Dreadnoughts themselves. If you can make a worthwhile suggestion on what to cut for the 'noughts, we'll listen, but I think that you'll find that there's no room for them. Finally, another huge trampler is not what the deck needs -- it already runs three (sometimes 4 depending on the list) huge tramplers that work even without Stifle.
Another thing is that is you use say five "destroy tokens" cards (Despotic Scepter and Tel-Jilad Stylus) I think that the number should be 3 Stylus and 2 Scepter or even 4 to 1 instead of the 3 scepter to 2 stylus I saw in the deck. That way you have a better chance of returning Drakes to your library and then transmuting for them again.
Tutoring for Drakes is waaay harder than just Strongholding them back onto the top, which is why I suggested originally to go all Scepters and no Stylii. Stephen made a very good point, however, that Pithing needle sees a lot of play yet, and forces us to do a 2/3 split. For this reason, I definitely run 3 Scepters and 2 Stylii.
Guys, you're on a forum that's taken its time to provide tools such as tags for decks, cards, and sideboard separation. Please use them instead of writing useless, confusing acronyms.
Also, Grove of the Burnwillows is helpful for color fixing, but isn't any good in an aggro deck, which is exactly what you're running. Aggro decks are made to take the opponent to 0 as fast as possible, and you're only making that harder by giving them 2-3 life a game. Seeing as how the deck isn't very color hungry, I suggest dropping or eliminating the Grove.
Tarfire is garbage. You are aided in no way in the fact that its a Goblin, so you might as well call it Shock. That said, Shock isn't any good either. If you're growing creatures, the slot should definitely be used for Pyroclasm. Your grow creatures will live it and it'll help clear the opposing board.
No one seems to understand -- this deck wins by decking, yes, and prevents itself by forcing the opponent to draw off the Mines and Rites first. If your opponent mills one or two of your cards, you're still fine because you're going to play more Mines and Rites. It's not worth wasting maindeck card slots for a safety valve on an unlikely event. At the very most, but one Gaea's Blessing in the sideboard.
That said, don't try to mill your own cards. Terramorphic Expance is an okay card, but definitely not in this deck, as it will offset the milling advantage from making your opponents draw first off Mines.
Again, are 3 Wasteland really enough to do any damage? I do like the idea that using utiliy slots for "land" so to speak) gives the option of ensuring extra mana or extra semi-disruption.
Of all the lists you've posted on here, this is my favorite. 3 Wastelands will certainly do their damage -- they're in the deck to disrupt, not as a win condition. They will severely increase your matchup against deck that use utility lands heavily. Like you said, this includes Fairly Stompy, Angel/RG Stax, and as of late I've even seen a few Threshold run Nantuko Monestary in addition to their 3 or 4 colors and measly 17 lands.
A turn 1 Wasteland accompanied by a few other lands is just as devastating as Stifling their first fetch land, and with Stifle still maindeck, you're set to wreck up the early game.
If you're looking for the 4th Wasteland slot, you could probably shave off one of the Underground Seas. This still leaves 13 black sources and 11 blue sources (fetch lands included), and because you always have the option to use Wasteland for mana, 21 land isn't too few.
I talk about Legacy a lot with a lot of different people because I've spent the vast majority of my magic career on the format, and I enjoy it way more than the others. Just talking with people at local shops, I've now had 3 separate accounts of people telling me about an amazing new deck using the "that one hunted creature". Vial Horror is out there, and it's making its name among the ranks. Cheers!
It was also suggested (not my complete_jank :p) that i MD stifles and run dreadnaught. At first i couldnt figure out how it would be better but i dunno, a turn one 12/12 could be pretty good i guess Still not really seeing how it would be better than regular faerie Stompy though... What do you guys think?
People who make this suggestion don't understand that the only way to be consistent at all is to try to remove as many dead cards as possible, even if they are absolute bombs when they work. Dreadnought fits this for sure. If you run it in a deck with Trinket Mage, or run a few extra Trickbinds or Æther Vial, Dreadnought can work. Otherwise, don't even consider it.
Well, other than block them. Not Piledriver, and it probably won't kill anything, but my point was that the deck could just use more creatures in general against Goblins, and having another unblockable 1/3 to hold a Jitte may be better than an Enchantment that blocks nothing. Regardless, though, I don't like either for VH -- it's not worth arguing.
I am only considering Force of Will if the deck does not use Sage. This creates sort of a catch-22, but I am praying that it will become irrelevant once a good Faerie is printed.
If you look back, you'll remember that I replaced Sage for Brainstorm because the index of 4 didn't do enough without actually drawing any of them, and the Forces were in place of Therapy. Where the Lorwyn cards fit, I have no idea -- probably also within these 8 or 9 slots. Also, if you're really interested in a singleton Counter Balance, Brainstorm lets you throw any casting cost from your hand (+ top 3) on your library. It's not as good as Top, but it's better than being blind.
You can't cut Leylines. Not only is it amazing against soooo many Vintage decks, it also protects your Bridges.
Budget or not, Expanse just plain doesn't work -- it puts the lands into play tapped meaning you cannot get off your first turn Brainstorm / Swords to Plowshares / Stifle / Portent / Ponder / Plated Sliver, etc. In a deck full of one drops, it doesn't work to have land coming into play tapped. If you can't afford the actual build of the deck, which admittedly isn't the cheapest Legacy deck you can put together, it probably isn't worth playing at all.
This is exactly why you target their creatures for trample. That way if they want the ability to fizzle, they need to 2-for-1 themselves. I don't think I like the card for this deck, but you can probably make it work.
Also, I always considered the deck as a whole to be way more controllish. Would it be better to replace some of the aggro choices (IE: Wildspeaker) for Delays, and find room for Ponder so you can find Brine or other answers more often?
There are 3 transmuters and only 1 Stronghold, but there are 4 Drakes. How often do you think it's relevant that you need to put a Drake back in the deck because you've already used all 4? I've played this deck for several months now and have yet to see such a situation. It's way better to sac the Drake and have it hang out in the graveyard until the Stronghold shows up. If in the meantime you need another Drake and find a transmuter, there's still going to be 3 Drakes in the deck.
Dreadnought isn't even good in decks specifically designed to get him out fast just because he is so fragile -- he's a 2 card combo that dies to any kill spell or disruption as he's being played (giving your opponent a 2-for-1 in each instance). That said, this deck is definitely not one made to get him out. This deck needs every single card slot available for disruption in addition to the Drake/Horror/Stick synergy, and has no room for fetchers such as Tinker Mage or the Dreadnoughts themselves. If you can make a worthwhile suggestion on what to cut for the 'noughts, we'll listen, but I think that you'll find that there's no room for them. Finally, another huge trampler is not what the deck needs -- it already runs three (sometimes 4 depending on the list) huge tramplers that work even without Stifle.
Tutoring for Drakes is waaay harder than just Strongholding them back onto the top, which is why I suggested originally to go all Scepters and no Stylii. Stephen made a very good point, however, that Pithing needle sees a lot of play yet, and forces us to do a 2/3 split. For this reason, I definitely run 3 Scepters and 2 Stylii.
That said, don't try to mill your own cards. Terramorphic Expance is an okay card, but definitely not in this deck, as it will offset the milling advantage from making your opponents draw first off Mines.
Of all the lists you've posted on here, this is my favorite. 3 Wastelands will certainly do their damage -- they're in the deck to disrupt, not as a win condition. They will severely increase your matchup against deck that use utility lands heavily. Like you said, this includes Fairly Stompy, Angel/RG Stax, and as of late I've even seen a few Threshold run Nantuko Monestary in addition to their 3 or 4 colors and measly 17 lands.
A turn 1 Wasteland accompanied by a few other lands is just as devastating as Stifling their first fetch land, and with Stifle still maindeck, you're set to wreck up the early game.
If you're looking for the 4th Wasteland slot, you could probably shave off one of the Underground Seas. This still leaves 13 black sources and 11 blue sources (fetch lands included), and because you always have the option to use Wasteland for mana, 21 land isn't too few.
I talk about Legacy a lot with a lot of different people because I've spent the vast majority of my magic career on the format, and I enjoy it way more than the others. Just talking with people at local shops, I've now had 3 separate accounts of people telling me about an amazing new deck using the "that one hunted creature". Vial Horror is out there, and it's making its name among the ranks. Cheers!
People who make this suggestion don't understand that the only way to be consistent at all is to try to remove as many dead cards as possible, even if they are absolute bombs when they work. Dreadnought fits this for sure. If you run it in a deck with Trinket Mage, or run a few extra Trickbinds or Æther Vial, Dreadnought can work. Otherwise, don't even consider it.
Well, other than block them. Not Piledriver, and it probably won't kill anything, but my point was that the deck could just use more creatures in general against Goblins, and having another unblockable 1/3 to hold a Jitte may be better than an Enchantment that blocks nothing. Regardless, though, I don't like either for VH -- it's not worth arguing.
If you look back, you'll remember that I replaced Sage for Brainstorm because the index of 4 didn't do enough without actually drawing any of them, and the Forces were in place of Therapy. Where the Lorwyn cards fit, I have no idea -- probably also within these 8 or 9 slots. Also, if you're really interested in a singleton Counter Balance, Brainstorm lets you throw any casting cost from your hand (+ top 3) on your library. It's not as good as Top, but it's better than being blind.