So your entire defense is "I change my stances, and you don't, so you're a worse Mafia player than I am." Which isn't much of a defense, nor does it explain your about-faces in the light of pressure on 3 confirmed members of the scum team. (I wanted to say "your scumbuddies", but see? I'm trying not to be so black and white as you're claiming I am. :stupid:) My stances are flexible and change - remember I came into this game yelling about Asian, Wessel, and AE? Obviously I was right about Asian, but I changed my view on AE in light of Brinatoo's result, and I'm currently undecided about Wessel. Your accusation of me being a bull-headed Mafia player and you being a swingy Mafia player doesn't make any of my points less valid - I realize that there are juxtapositions in our playstyle, but the point stands that you haven't done a damn thing this game. Plus I'm not sure where you get off criticizing me, considering I nailed DRey and Asian, and you admitted that you suck at scumhunting, almost verbatim. And there's a lot of my post you didn't address, so...
I don't believe I'm a necessarily better player than you, only a more logical one. As you've mentioned, I have a nasty habit of being completely incorrect.
On DRey, Asian, and Void: I never supported the DRey lynch. His play was so reminiscent of that in his other games that I interpreted it as a poor indicator of alignment. I largely supported Asian's lynch, vacillating only when his wagon began to rapidly garner weakly supported votes. Post-partial-claim, I still supported a lynch based on behavior, but capitulated to Alpha because he was better informed to make such a judgment call, though I suspected that his perspective was clouded by mechanical concerns. #993. On Void, I was concerned with the fact that Brinatoo was confirmed to be sane, but Kpaca was not. Design-wise, that would logically indicate that Kpaca's sanity was not ensured.
I addressed everything that I felt I could provide a constructive response to. Anything I didn't respond to was simply your interpretation of specific events, to which I could only assert that your perceptions are incorrect.
Quote from Iso »
RE: "Flavor contradiction", that's already been addressed. Did you miss that? Apparently so. Let's try again.
This game of Mafia is a flashback. We are the Elementals deciding who the traitors are. From that point of view, my Elemental, Indazeel, is aware of when Yblisa breaks free of the Clock. The lynch and Day scenes, involving the dialogue, are "present day", the game itself is the flashback. Get it? Since we still haven't killed all of the traitors, Indazeel "knows" when Yblisa breaks free. It would be incorrect of me to say Indazeel "knew" when Yblisa broke free. Get it? The dialogue in my role PM has one of the children asking if Indazeel knew when Yblisa would break free, to which the elder responds to the affirmative. I'm not sure what part of that you're not understanding.
I think I understand?
So at the time of the dialogue, Yblisa has already broken free?
I have to be honest, WoD, I'm not seeing the big flavor tell, and it would have to be pretty gigantic and pretty obvious to make me break my general rule with these things, which is that flavor gaming is pointless if the mod isn't completely incompetent.
Can we get back to behavioral analysis please?
It's hardly flavor-gaming. We're investigating an apparent contradiction between Iso's claimed role and what we know about the story. It isn't "Shadows are bad so the Elemental of Shadows is bad." It's more similar to "How can you be Sidi if he's the one telling the story?"
He then does an about face and starts digging into Wessel for not commenting on the DRey vs. Zas scenario, despite others not having done so as well. Why?
Though it could technically be addressed to a number of players like you and DJ, Wessel's violation was by far the most flagrant, with him posting twice with no contributing content in the face of numerous points of interest.
Quote from Iso »
Then iLord gives Zas an out with the "I think it's pretty clear who you're referring to" posts regarding the suspicious comment - he states he thinks it's about Niv, and then Zas hastily agrees. Dislike, given both Zas and Niv's alignments.
You've got the chronology wrong. Not only was is evident who he was likely talking about, he was the first one to explicitly mention Niv in his #143.
Quote from Iso »
I am curious as to why iLord was defending LC so early in the game. Not that I think LC is scum - but rather, don't believe iLord could have legitimately surmised as much at that stage in the game.
You don't defend players - you defend logic. I don't recall the specific instance you're talking about here, but I can assure you that I didn't believe LC was more likely than any other player to be town.
Quote from Iso »
Post #258 is also terrible. iLord has probably tasted wood and paint finish this entire game with his wishy-washy stances on absolutely, y'know, everything.
It's foolish to blindly assume that your slightest suspicion is correct. Because I don't indulge in your blind bullheadedness, you're calling my stances "wishy-washy." You would do well to trade some of your arrogance for a little bit of hesitation.
Quote from Iso »
iLord tries to call Niv and ced scum at the same time. Post #319. Another reason I dislike this - He calls ced scum and in the same breath mentions Brinatoo is buddying with ced blatantly and calls him scum for it. Wtf? There is so much disparity in that, I don't even know where to begin - how can you call someone scum for buddying up to someone you think is scum? This suggests iLord knows ced is town, and ergo, makes iLord scum.
I didn't mention any suspicion of Niv at all in #319, so I'm not sure what your'e talking about.
Quote from Iso »
Finally, when the tide turns against Asian, iLord immediately jumps on the Asian wagon. Obviously a hasty bus attempt for town credit. Plus there was the whole "your question wasn't fair" exchange between Asian and iLord. Hmm.
I voiced my suspicions of Asian in #428. Artifice was the only one to announce anything even remotely resembling suspicion before me.
Quote from Iso »
iLord then turns on Pale Mage, who I consider town. Man, this is just getting better and better.
I don't know how you can play the game in such black and white. Refusing to see the vast area in between severely inhibits your capacity to scumhunt.
Quote from Iso »
"Asian saying he's sure that you're town and then you saying this doesn't really mollify my concerns. If you two aren't confirmed to each other, I see reason to discontinue the claim." @Alpha.
I'm not sure what you're criticizing here?
Quote from Iso »
"It's incredibly unlikely that the two aren't at least mechanically linked in some manner, given the nature of their claim." re: Brinatoo & kpaca. Oof. I think this is something we should consider later if it comes down to it, just in case.
And then he attempts to discredit both Art and myself after saying that the "flavor evidence against Iso is damning".
Unlike you apparently, I am not perpetually trapped in a perceptual set, and I modify my reads in light of new evidence. If such behavior is what you call "inconsistency," then consistency in scumhunting would be irrefutably asinine.
====================
Really, the bulk of your case concerns how I alter my stances. You need to reconcile yourself with the fact that remaining flexible on your reads is not only permissible, it is necessary to avoid preventable mislynches.
Incidentally, I'm confused as to why the town is still ignoring the flavor contradiction that WoD pointed out. As claimed, Iso has stated that his role explicitly informs him when Yblisa breaks free of her prison. The flavor scenes have made clear this has already happened, making that part of Iso's claim senseless. Seems pretty cut and dry to me?
I'm going to take this as you can't be bothered to fabricate a defense because I'm right and ask for more votes.
The excuse about senseless noise, the "I'll be doing a reread", and having no explanation for your part in the early game's scum dance should convince others to vote you.
I'd like Iso to follow through as well, DJ, for reference.
You can take it however you like. Both you and Iso have demonstrated your love for egregious argument. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with either of you if there's nothing to be gained from it. My explanation for said "early game's scum dance" is that I'm not "trying to salvage the situation." Your argument is that I am. That's all there is to the discussion, and it's for the rest of the town to determine whether or not they believe your argument is valid.
Points that I could answer would be along the lines of "Why did you perform a certain action?" There's nothing I can say to "My interpretation is this. Convince me otherwise."
I'm still not seeing an adequate to response to WoD's #2094? It looks damning to me.
Quote from PM »
@iLord - Why is AE in your indeterminates list?
That's a mistake - he should be under Likely Town.
Quote from Artifice »
The last post feels as though AsianI is trying to break up the scum slamdance. His comment of "I don't understand the votes on iLord." is the cherry on top that makes me really want to lynch iLord. The "three votes" thing is pretty ugly, too.
I welcome comments and further post analysis of the rest of the game (@Iso).
Unvote; Vote iLord
What type of response are you looking for here? These are the type of arguments that are directed towards the town for judgment rather than the target for defense. Any debate from my side is ultimately purposeless because it devolves into "yes-you-did" and "no-I-didn't."
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As I thought, the thread is just littered with senseless noise. The most important thing I gleamed was the flavor contradiction that WoD pointed out - did I miss some type of resolution to this?
Not a lot of time these next few days, but still intending to get through rereads of players that I have yet to do so for.
Disagreed; if my ability were given to scum, then all that player would have to do is be the last scum in a 4-person endgame (meaning that if they're the last alive among 6 and can speedhammer, that's an automatic win for the scum team). Totally broken, and largely an impossibility, given the sheer amount of killing abilities the town has demonstrated.
You misunderstood me - the point of your ability is that if the game goes past a certain point, your faction is guaranteed to win. If you were scum, it would effectively give the town a mechanical deadline to compensate for its concentration of power roles. Realistically, the reverse argument could be made for either town or neutral alignments as well.
If I had a repeatable Daykill, I would shoot EVERY player ever that makes a list without reasons.
Please supply reasons for the above.
Search through my posts in isolation. If I had a repeatable hammer, I would hit EVERY player that ever nags players continuously because they're too lazy to find the explanations that are already there.
Also, how do you think a scum team (assuming for a moment he isn't on it) doesn't just play around him or play to his ego if he really does become a triple voter? It doesn't seem to do anything in the late game, and his claim of the trigger just seems preposterous.
The point was that whatever faction Iso is on wins once he gets his ability. That's the moderator's intent - to add a sort of mechanical deadline for a certain faction.
He could totally be lying, but that's not something that we can determine or should concern ourselves with at this point.
I personally think it's more likely that scum NK'd Niv because he was off on his reads, to muddy the waters. And DJ is town in my eyes.
As WIFOM as this is, I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent. Niv is an extremely unusual target. Even if he was correct on his reads, his capacity to lead a lynch is extraordinarily high and I doubt that the scum would be overly concerned with the direction his suspicions lie. Unless they caught some hint about his role, it was likely just a thinly-veiled attempt to "muddy the waters."
==============
Iso is right that PoE is the best way to go from here, but his plan suffices only if you agree with his reads. At the present, here's how the game looks from my perspective:
Indeterminate
ganderin_dan (r. pinkfloyd)
Archmage Eternal
DJ Catchem
Pale Mage (r. dropkickdude)
Artifice 101 (r. Shinen)
I'm hoping to get some type of reread on the four that I haven't yet under "Indeterminate" and find a solid lynch there today.
==================
Man, Iso vs. Artifice is such a satisfying clash of egoists :p.
Iso's claim could go on any alignment. Realistically, it's a way to adjust the balance of the game so that a certain faction has the advantage of attrition. Without seeing the setup, there's no way to know which faction needs such an advantage.
Take dan's position. Imagine you have an activated ability that doesn't move the clock. Now there's somebody (let's call him Iso) who says 'activated abilities move the clock!' You know you have an activated ability that doesn't move the clock, so Iso must be wrong.
However, instead of thinking 'Iso must obviously be ignorant town', or at least thinking that Iso is not right on this matter, gan_dan goes as far as saying he thinks you're scum for the scumslip of having inside information - while this supposed 'inside information' clearly contradicts his own outed role. Logic dictates he could not have made the assumption you're scum with 'inside information'. Inside information suggests scum would know what is right. It suggests scum would know that all active abilities move the clock. For gan_dan to believe his own argument against you, he would at least have to disregard his own contradicting active ability that does not move the clock (=impossible).
So gan_dan can't say you're scum for having inside information, because this 'inside information' contradicts his own outed role. Therefore he cannot be truthful about his own role, or his argument against you, or both. The only situation in which he can honestly (as town) think you're scum is if he lied about his own activated ability, in which case I wonder why he would do that.
Do you consider ganderin simply not being logical as a possibility?
While I appreciate the support here, this reads like you've got me actively trying to modify my playstyle. If I were Niv, that'd raise question marks in my mind too. Why phrase it like this, instead of, 'He's playing like he did in Clue, where he was town."?
I'm phrasing it exactly as I'm reading it. I don't see the point of being less specific.
Guys, guys, you are missing my point. I'm not talking about whether or not active abilities move the clock. I'm saying gan_dan is scum. His attack on Iso is scum! Just read his posts, first he says he has an active ability that doesn't move the clock, but later gan_dan attacks Iso for his supposed inside information that active abilities don't move the clock. This is a contradiction! (Honest) town gan_dan could never attack Iso based on the argument that Iso would have inside information. Therefore, gan_dan is either lying town (lying about his active ability), or he's scum trying to get Iso lynched on a contradictory argument.
This feels like a logic error. The bolded line is the most important and the one that you must justify.
==================
A Vezok lynch is for the lazy. There's plenty of players that have contributed actual content to analyze, and Vezok is just one of those players that leaves me wondering why he even bothers joining games if he's going to be so apathetic.
Well, from other people I wouldn't mind as much. But as you're one of the most experienced players in this game, the way you recently started to back down struck me as a bit odd.
Here:
In both these quotes you suddenly feel no longer confident (about your case, about yourself). Tell me how this is not being self-conscious.
Aside from the fact that a number of players in this game are more experienced than I and the fact that WoD's claim means that my case was wrong, it was made in reference me being similarly mistaken about Zas at the beginning of Day 2.
First on the bold: DRey was scum in Clue, and I believe that information was public at the time you made the post. If I read this post and didn't have that information, I would believe you were speaking of a mislynch of DRey in that game. Can you explain to me why it was a Bad Thing for DRey's situation to echo his situation in a game where he flipped scum?
It's not?
The similarity I noted was his tendency to lash out under heavy pressure and delay his claim. The odd situation was that in Osteria, Clue, and this game, DRey reacted with remarkable consistency. Given that he was scum in the first two, I hadn't actually seen how DRey would react in a comparable situation as town, and I could not directly attribute such behavior to scum alignment, hence my absence of elaboration.
Quote from Pale Mage »
Second on the paragraph re: Dancing Mad on WoD: You praise his analysis and then seem to disagree with his conclusion. Can you clarify or elaborate on this?
I do agree with his conclusion that kpaca and WoD are not scum together, which is really the analysis I was praising. Looking back, I would disagree with his closing assertion that WoD gets "a small amount of townie points," though I certainly agree with him that WoD's belief that kpaca was a cop was likely genuine.
What should be done with players living on the periphery, iLord?
I understand your implication, and you're welcome to continue your crusade to pry them from the shadows. I'm going to concern myself with analyzing the behavior we already have.
ganderin mentioning his Hetalia game in his #610 (his explanation is in #647) would be quite odd coming from a scum - it's rather unnatural to draw attention to similarities with one's scum play. It is concerning, however, that he leaked information about his "sweet role" - it seems to be intentionally revealed to offset the similarity.
And aside from that ambiguous post, there seems to be little else to gleam from either his or pinkfloyd's activity thus far. They've remained primarily on the periphery, and the completely absence of involved interactions with any of our deceased scum makes it difficult to draw any more concrete conclusions.
I don't believe I'm a necessarily better player than you, only a more logical one. As you've mentioned, I have a nasty habit of being completely incorrect.
On DRey, Asian, and Void: I never supported the DRey lynch. His play was so reminiscent of that in his other games that I interpreted it as a poor indicator of alignment. I largely supported Asian's lynch, vacillating only when his wagon began to rapidly garner weakly supported votes. Post-partial-claim, I still supported a lynch based on behavior, but capitulated to Alpha because he was better informed to make such a judgment call, though I suspected that his perspective was clouded by mechanical concerns. #993. On Void, I was concerned with the fact that Brinatoo was confirmed to be sane, but Kpaca was not. Design-wise, that would logically indicate that Kpaca's sanity was not ensured.
I addressed everything that I felt I could provide a constructive response to. Anything I didn't respond to was simply your interpretation of specific events, to which I could only assert that your perceptions are incorrect.
I think I understand?
So at the time of the dialogue, Yblisa has already broken free?
It's hardly flavor-gaming. We're investigating an apparent contradiction between Iso's claimed role and what we know about the story. It isn't "Shadows are bad so the Elemental of Shadows is bad." It's more similar to "How can you be Sidi if he's the one telling the story?"
You've got the chronology wrong. Not only was is evident who he was likely talking about, he was the first one to explicitly mention Niv in his #143.
You don't defend players - you defend logic. I don't recall the specific instance you're talking about here, but I can assure you that I didn't believe LC was more likely than any other player to be town.
It's foolish to blindly assume that your slightest suspicion is correct. Because I don't indulge in your blind bullheadedness, you're calling my stances "wishy-washy." You would do well to trade some of your arrogance for a little bit of hesitation.
I didn't mention any suspicion of Niv at all in #319, so I'm not sure what your'e talking about.
I voiced my suspicions of Asian in #428. Artifice was the only one to announce anything even remotely resembling suspicion before me.
I don't know how you can play the game in such black and white. Refusing to see the vast area in between severely inhibits your capacity to scumhunt.
I'm not sure what you're criticizing here?
That's actually talking about AI & AI. #1332.
Unlike you apparently, I am not perpetually trapped in a perceptual set, and I modify my reads in light of new evidence. If such behavior is what you call "inconsistency," then consistency in scumhunting would be irrefutably asinine.
====================
Really, the bulk of your case concerns how I alter my stances. You need to reconcile yourself with the fact that remaining flexible on your reads is not only permissible, it is necessary to avoid preventable mislynches.
Incidentally, I'm confused as to why the town is still ignoring the flavor contradiction that WoD pointed out. As claimed, Iso has stated that his role explicitly informs him when Yblisa breaks free of her prison. The flavor scenes have made clear this has already happened, making that part of Iso's claim senseless. Seems pretty cut and dry to me?
You can take it however you like. Both you and Iso have demonstrated your love for egregious argument. I'm not going to waste my time arguing with either of you if there's nothing to be gained from it. My explanation for said "early game's scum dance" is that I'm not "trying to salvage the situation." Your argument is that I am. That's all there is to the discussion, and it's for the rest of the town to determine whether or not they believe your argument is valid.
Points that I could answer would be along the lines of "Why did you perform a certain action?" There's nothing I can say to "My interpretation is this. Convince me otherwise."
That's a mistake - he should be under Likely Town.
What type of response are you looking for here? These are the type of arguments that are directed towards the town for judgment rather than the target for defense. Any debate from my side is ultimately purposeless because it devolves into "yes-you-did" and "no-I-didn't."
===================
As I thought, the thread is just littered with senseless noise. The most important thing I gleamed was the flavor contradiction that WoD pointed out - did I miss some type of resolution to this?
Not a lot of time these next few days, but still intending to get through rereads of players that I have yet to do so for.
I don't see why busing your buddies would be more optimal than normal.
You misunderstood me - the point of your ability is that if the game goes past a certain point, your faction is guaranteed to win. If you were scum, it would effectively give the town a mechanical deadline to compensate for its concentration of power roles. Realistically, the reverse argument could be made for either town or neutral alignments as well.
Search through my posts in isolation. If I had a repeatable hammer, I would hit EVERY player that ever nags players continuously because they're too lazy to find the explanations that are already there.
The point was that whatever faction Iso is on wins once he gets his ability. That's the moderator's intent - to add a sort of mechanical deadline for a certain faction.
He could totally be lying, but that's not something that we can determine or should concern ourselves with at this point.
As WIFOM as this is, I'm inclined to agree to a certain extent. Niv is an extremely unusual target. Even if he was correct on his reads, his capacity to lead a lynch is extraordinarily high and I doubt that the scum would be overly concerned with the direction his suspicions lie. Unless they caught some hint about his role, it was likely just a thinly-veiled attempt to "muddy the waters."
==============
Iso is right that PoE is the best way to go from here, but his plan suffices only if you agree with his reads. At the present, here's how the game looks from my perspective:
Indeterminate
ganderin_dan (r. pinkfloyd)
Archmage Eternal
DJ Catchem
Pale Mage (r. dropkickdude)
Artifice 101 (r. Shinen)
Leaning Town
Liquidity Crisis
Iso (r. Gigas1)
Likely Town
Wessel
Dancing Mad (r. Burstinatrix)
kpaca
Brinatoo
AlphaInsidious
Wrath_of_DoG
I'm hoping to get some type of reread on the four that I haven't yet under "Indeterminate" and find a solid lynch there today.
==================
Man, Iso vs. Artifice is such a satisfying clash of egoists :p.
Iso's claim could go on any alignment. Realistically, it's a way to adjust the balance of the game so that a certain faction has the advantage of attrition. Without seeing the setup, there's no way to know which faction needs such an advantage.
I think I'll reread DJ next.
Do you consider ganderin simply not being logical as a possibility?
I'm phrasing it exactly as I'm reading it. I don't see the point of being less specific.
Presumably, you're trying to kill the bad guys.
This feels like a logic error. The bolded line is the most important and the one that you must justify.
==================
A Vezok lynch is for the lazy.
Aside from the fact that a number of players in this game are more experienced than I and the fact that WoD's claim means that my case was wrong, it was made in reference me being similarly mistaken about Zas at the beginning of Day 2.
It's not?
The similarity I noted was his tendency to lash out under heavy pressure and delay his claim. The odd situation was that in Osteria, Clue, and this game, DRey reacted with remarkable consistency. Given that he was scum in the first two, I hadn't actually seen how DRey would react in a comparable situation as town, and I could not directly attribute such behavior to scum alignment, hence my absence of elaboration.
I do agree with his conclusion that kpaca and WoD are not scum together, which is really the analysis I was praising. Looking back, I would disagree with his closing assertion that WoD gets "a small amount of townie points," though I certainly agree with him that WoD's belief that kpaca was a cop was likely genuine.
I understand your implication, and you're welcome to continue your crusade to pry them from the shadows. I'm going to concern myself with analyzing the behavior we already have.
And aside from that ambiguous post, there seems to be little else to gleam from either his or pinkfloyd's activity thus far. They've remained primarily on the periphery, and the completely absence of involved interactions with any of our deceased scum makes it difficult to draw any more concrete conclusions.
I think I'm going to reread DJ's posts next.
Self-conscious?