@iLord: Why is AlphaI auto-town on your list? I hate lists without reasons because they force questions like the one I just asked.
AlphaI was either gambitting as scum or a Mason with AsianI, but:This does not indicate role abilities of the now dead AsianI. We have no idea if they were unconfirmed Masons or, well scum with or without Daychat. They could pull that gambit either way I suppose.
It's incredibly unlikely that the two aren't at least mechanically linked in some manner, given the nature of their claim. A scum gambit there would be quite tricky late game once they're forced to claim.
Behaviorally, it's difficult to tell whether this link is scum-scum or scum-town. Especially since Alpha effectively singlehandedly saved Asian from the lynch, I would argue that pulling such a gambit as a scum was an unqualified success. Mechanically, however, it's poor design to put such a link on a scum-scum pair. Zindabad mentioned that some roles are not to be randomized, correct? I believe that this is one such case where it would have been corrected if two scum were rolled together.
Altogether, it's perhaps not as definitive as my initial label would indicate. Maybe moving Alpha down to "leaning town" would be more appropriate, as I had hastily placed him into the town category upon seeing the Asian flip in the middle of my reread.
You were on the Asian wagon. He flipped scum. That's something. And you finding me STILL scummy after drey's obvious fakescumhunting, is >.<
My comment was in reference to kpaca's guilty investigation on Zas, who was one of my stronger town reads after my reread.
Quote from Brinatoo »
Here is an example of DRey fakescumhunting towards me. iLord, if this and ALL OF MY ACTIONS IN THIS GAME don't convince you that I am not scum, I don't know what will.
iLord, you think that I bussed both of them, and they both tried to bus me and failed at doing so and I called them out on it on both occasions and they flaked off?
Riddle me that.
As I've mentioned before, distancing is not some extreme tactic of last resort of scum. It occurs naturally through discussion and more often than not does not actually pose a significant threat to either player.
In my reread, I've noted the posts concerning DRey that I felt we could gleam some useful information from with regards to his interactions with other players. Others that I passed over were frequently because there existed equally likely mindsets for DRey that made it impossible to determine anything about the alignment of the player he attacked.
It's quite a bit more difficult to extract information from Asian's posts, as his experience gives him the presence of mind to guard his posts with a layer of artifice (as a consequence of which we were able to behaviorally catch him). This, coupled with the fact that the flip occurred after I was about midway through the thread, is why I didn't quote any of his posts.
In the specific post you quoted, I see that DRey is making a weak and evidently insincere attack upon you. I fail to see, however, why he would not do so if you were scum.
No, it's worth it. This isn't the end of a long pursuit. If we're getting hosed by a bad investigation or whatnot it will be better to have his observations for future Days.
Theoretically, yes, if he's town, his observations would be nice to have.
Humanisticaly and considering how much time it took me to work through the thread, I'd hate to make anyone else go through that ordeal just to be lynched.
you got to be kidding.
vote: Zas (as you shall be known from now on)
this is not an rvs vote.
I'm imaging DRey opening up with this against a scumbuddy, and I'm not seeing the last line as something he would add in such a situation. The purpose of adding the second line is to affirm that your vote is serious and to gather reactions appropriately. It would be incredibly unnatural to do so to a scum partner who already knows that you're feigning the attack.
Quote from Gigas1, #118 »
I'm thinking Liquidity Crisis is the best lynch right now. Most of his posts have been rather poorly thought out defense of DRey.
Unvote, Vote: Liquidity Crisis
This isn't quite as strong as the above, but is still a reasonable indication that Gigas1 is town. Barring the fact that he has forgotten who his scumbuddies are (being his first post in the game made in such haste, that could certainly be true), it's really unusual for a scum player to criticize a poor defense of a scumbuddy. Unnatural stances are only adopted after consideration, and even the slightest of such ruminations would yield a number of more fruitful tactics.
Quote from DRey, #431 »
c)I don't believe the smiley in Zaz post was indicative of humor. It was a not-so-subtle way to make his proposal more innocuous than it really was and an easy way to backtrack after being attacked for it "hey guys I was kidding, lol,really, see the smile, I was just RVSing". That's the reason I asked about his experience, to determine if he was just smart scum trying to pass a Bad Idea already preparing a Way Out or noob town that just doesn't know any better.
Actually I don't also remember him confirming nor denying it, and he has totally submerged so he probably is scum trying to put it under the rug exactly the way scum would do. vote: Zaz
Again, this points strongly to town Zas. After returning to the thread and not having caught up/read the thread closely, returning back to Zas indicates that DRey finds that particular position as a "safehold" of sorts, somewhere he can return to if he doesn't have any updated reads.
Quote from Dancing Mad, #521 »
BLUE PEOPLE:
DRey: I've played two games with DRey prior to this one (FF and Social Engineering). In both, I correctly ID'd him as scum D1, and I'm not getting the same vibe from him at all this game. He's been largely doing his own thing, is confident and inquisitive in a way he wasn't in those other two games, and has consistently shown indignation at not being taken seriously (particularly in this post here), which is a townie trait.
DM here is well aware of his capacity to read DRey. Mentioning such a a history while intentionally giving an incorrect read is fairly counter-intuitive. Not completely out of a scumDM's repertoire, but far more likely coming from a town DM.
Quote from DRey, #556 »
Well, at least he and Burst DM certainly aren't scumbuddies.
In response to AE not noticing that Burst was replaced. While I wouldn't take this link at face value, coming from DRey, I'm inclined to believe it.
Quote from DRey, #556 »
Let me start.
Brinatoo (Bad play all around, newbie, maybe first time as scum?)
Zas (scared scum is scared)
Burst DM is a pretty good player and erased all bad feelings I had about Burst already, just need to be a little more active.
Kpaca (guy is all over the place, looking like a hungry beast trying to latch onto anyone)
DRey's scumlist. Knowing DRey, he probably wouldn't feel comfortable without putting at least one actual scum in here.
Quote from LC, #605 »
Unvote, Vote DRey
Good thing you mentioned the scum so we know you aren't one!
Someone just earned himself a reread.
Weak but favorable for LC. I could see scumLC starting the bus this way, but a genuine push is more likely.
Quote from Iso, #1288 »
Don't have time to hunt it down, as I have to head to work now, but it was the quote where he said something about the scum never letting me get my ability, which implies that it is a mafia-exclusive mechanic, blah blah, etc. I dissect it fairly adequately in some of my posts, and then DRey plays dumb about it, despite me harping on him about it for a while. Anyway, you'll find it if you're rereading the whole game.
I remember that post. It didn't read like a slip, more like DRey felt logically the scum had some way to screw with the Aeon clock. Given he was scum, they probably do. I don't see why this means Ganderin is scum?
Quote from kpaca »
I have a cop ability. I investigated Zas/replacement last night. I got a result of scum.
vote: Zas/Void
This game is a blast.
Man, I really suck at finding scum.
Vote: Void
Quote from Void »
I will still work on it just so I have a chance of getting a post in with my thoughts so that it can be anaylized for later use.
Props for being willing to put in the effort, but this isn't usually a townie mindset. I don't know your personality very well, but more likely than not, this is an example of scum trying the "so-much-effort-I-must-be-town" trick.
You would then have to concede that I was a major force behind Seppel's wagon and was the leader of the forces to see him lynched, while also bussing DRey.
If I am reading this correctly you think I am scum for bussing DRey and Seppel, despite the fact that I was a major force on one of the wagons (Seppel) and while not a leader on the DRey wagon more than just a passing vote.
As I clarified before, I have yet to reconsider your stance on Seppel's wagon in light of his alignment. This discussion can be considered in a much more fruitful fashion after I have done so. In the abstract, however, both DRey and Seppel flipping scum does not logically make you less likely to be scum.
You are also severely underestimating your contribution to both wagons. We may have differing interpretations of "major force," as both DRey and Seppel would have been lynched regardless of your position.
Do you really believe I would bus two partners like that?
I'll concede that I haven't reevaluated your stance on the Seppel wagon. That caveat notwithstanding, busing partners in your position is not unlikely in the slightest. Busing theoretically is a trade-off in which you sacrifice a partner in exchange for town cred. In practice, however, most players have little weight on the actual result of the lynch. Effectively, you can superficially solidify your position without noticeably increasing the chance of either partner's death.
Hmmm...Az isn't on your list. Remind me to reread him later.
That being said, I would like to tell you guys a story.
I used to have an ability that stole a random ability from a target player. I targeted seppel.
The ability I stole hides peoples alignments until the end of the next day.
Qed seppel is the janitor. Vote seppel
That makes a lot more sense. One of my abilities is a one-shot ability revealing only to me the alignment of a dead player. This led me to believe that this game would have no/partial reveals. Seppel's ability was odd in comparison because it revealed it to the entire town rather than to him only, but DRey's alignment flip confused me as to the utility of either of our abilities. Seppel actually being the janitor and using that as a basis for a falseclaim explains both discrepancies.
I'm going to be gone for the next two days, but I'll reread DRey's interactions after that. We definitely shouldn't end the day before then.
Also, the fact that DRey's alignment was revealed is not consistent with what I would expect from my role either. That is, Seppel's third ability should not count against him because of the DRey flip.
Ooh! I love things like this. From this I conclude that WoD and kpaca are highly unlikely to be scum together, and that if DRey is town then WoD probably is too. Not that helpful at the moment, but meh.
Explanation, 'cause I know someone is going to ask: WoD thought kpaca had a guilty day-cop on DRey. If kpaca and WoD were scumbuddies, then WoD would have known that kpaca didn't have any investigative ability, and therefore wouldn't have made that mistake. Likewise, if DRey were town and WoD were scum, WoD would know DRey is town and not be likely to think kpaca had a guilty investigation on him. I guess he could think DRey were like a miller or something, but it's still less likely it'd occur to him.
And yeah, WoD could be lying about thinking kpaca had an investigation, but I doubt it. There's no reason really for scum to think to lie like that, he responded to it in exactly the way I'd expect a townie to do, and I can totally see where he was coming from with it. In fact I think WoD gets a small amount of townie points regardless of others' alignments.
Good catch - I agree entirely.
=================
The above is an example of of thorough analysis that actively exploits the differences between a scum and townie mindset. Much of the giant quote wars of the last few pages have been overly concerned with logic and other contradictions. It's making it very difficult to follow the thread at all, and I skimmed only very loosely over many of them, finding no lack of words but a significant dearth of valid scumhunting. I think Wrath_of_Dog is likely still a good place to look into, and I should try to get around to scanning his cited scum games.
Drey's situation here echoes his lynch in Clue. Pale Mage''s stance is very representative of the case as a whole:
Quote from PM »
I went over this with DRey when I first questioned him. There's no way in hell anyone reads Ced's post in the RVS as "Yes, I think the claim is a good idea" immediately followed with "Here is a joke claim!" Just doesn't happen; he's lying about that, either due to alignment or a strong Fear/Pride issue in his personality.
The bolded is an essential qualifier. I wouldn't go as far as to shoehorn Drey's quirk as a "Fear/Pride issue," but his personality is definitely at play here. More than usual, Drey prioritizes winning the argument. This can push him to adopt stances, such as the one that PM criticizes, that are fairly likely artificial. This makes him, and players of similar mindset, very difficult to read in the context of arguments because they have identical motivation regardless of alignment in such settings. It doesn't help that many players mistakenly interpret this behavior as inherently scummy and obfuscate the situation. To this end:
@Drey: Would you provide a concise three or four sentences on how you feel about some of your most confident reads?
It does only to the extent that he was pushed to claim, did, and was able to at least partially prove his claim. I know...it doesn't prove alignment. This is why I say I'm not letting him completely off the hook. But you can't ignore that he came through at least partially, which makes him quite a bit more honest than others in here.
This is poor logic. Confirming one of his abilities doesn't make him more likely to be town in the slightest - it means simply that he does, indeed, possess that ability.
Quote from DJ »
DRey replaced in for someone who was pushed basically to claim range. that's a prescident for his role. When you're inthe hot seat, you can't jsut say, "Meh...I don't feel like working through this right now."
When you compound that with the fact that he at first lindly refusedto participate until D2, and blindly aligned himself with another known buddy of his, then has moved on to take well over a week to read this game, despite claiming he's constantly working on it...well, you have someone who replaced into a nearly-lynched scum role, and is now doing everything within his power to drag his heels and misdirect.
His predecessor was leaning scum, and he's acting scummy. Sometimes it just is what it is.
I don't see how any of the behaviors you described is indicative of scum. Yes, he's dragging his heels and trying to avoid scrutiny. The problem with both of those behaviors is that they are natural behaviors that are performed identically by both town and scum.
Me claiming does nothing except give the scum more information about Alpha. I should be lynched or not lynched based on my play alone, not my role.
It's your call. Behaviorally, I'm fine with your lynch.
===============
Alpha's being cryptic, but as far as I can tell, I believe he's misguided. He explicitly states that he doesn't "have reason to say Asian is town based on his claim," but also states that Asian being alive is mechanically beneficial to him. I believe the latter reason is coloring his judgment.
Regardless, I certainly don't think that both Alpha and Asian are scum. As it is, I can agree with lynching Asian later if Alpha feels that the mechanical benefits are worth it.
Quote from WoD »
SNAP. Nice catch.
Vote DRey
I need to check out some of WoD's recent scum games.
It's incredibly unlikely that the two aren't at least mechanically linked in some manner, given the nature of their claim. A scum gambit there would be quite tricky late game once they're forced to claim.
Behaviorally, it's difficult to tell whether this link is scum-scum or scum-town. Especially since Alpha effectively singlehandedly saved Asian from the lynch, I would argue that pulling such a gambit as a scum was an unqualified success. Mechanically, however, it's poor design to put such a link on a scum-scum pair. Zindabad mentioned that some roles are not to be randomized, correct? I believe that this is one such case where it would have been corrected if two scum were rolled together.
Altogether, it's perhaps not as definitive as my initial label would indicate. Maybe moving Alpha down to "leaning town" would be more appropriate, as I had hastily placed him into the town category upon seeing the Asian flip in the middle of my reread.
My comment was in reference to kpaca's guilty investigation on Zas, who was one of my stronger town reads after my reread.
As I've mentioned before, distancing is not some extreme tactic of last resort of scum. It occurs naturally through discussion and more often than not does not actually pose a significant threat to either player.
In my reread, I've noted the posts concerning DRey that I felt we could gleam some useful information from with regards to his interactions with other players. Others that I passed over were frequently because there existed equally likely mindsets for DRey that made it impossible to determine anything about the alignment of the player he attacked.
It's quite a bit more difficult to extract information from Asian's posts, as his experience gives him the presence of mind to guard his posts with a layer of artifice (as a consequence of which we were able to behaviorally catch him). This, coupled with the fact that the flip occurred after I was about midway through the thread, is why I didn't quote any of his posts.
In the specific post you quoted, I see that DRey is making a weak and evidently insincere attack upon you. I fail to see, however, why he would not do so if you were scum.
Theoretically, yes, if he's town, his observations would be nice to have.
Humanisticaly and considering how much time it took me to work through the thread, I'd hate to make anyone else go through that ordeal just to be lynched.
I'm imaging DRey opening up with this against a scumbuddy, and I'm not seeing the last line as something he would add in such a situation. The purpose of adding the second line is to affirm that your vote is serious and to gather reactions appropriately. It would be incredibly unnatural to do so to a scum partner who already knows that you're feigning the attack.
This isn't quite as strong as the above, but is still a reasonable indication that Gigas1 is town. Barring the fact that he has forgotten who his scumbuddies are (being his first post in the game made in such haste, that could certainly be true), it's really unusual for a scum player to criticize a poor defense of a scumbuddy. Unnatural stances are only adopted after consideration, and even the slightest of such ruminations would yield a number of more fruitful tactics.
Again, this points strongly to town Zas. After returning to the thread and not having caught up/read the thread closely, returning back to Zas indicates that DRey finds that particular position as a "safehold" of sorts, somewhere he can return to if he doesn't have any updated reads.
DM here is well aware of his capacity to read DRey. Mentioning such a a history while intentionally giving an incorrect read is fairly counter-intuitive. Not completely out of a scumDM's repertoire, but far more likely coming from a town DM.
In response to AE not noticing that Burst was replaced. While I wouldn't take this link at face value, coming from DRey, I'm inclined to believe it.
DRey's scumlist. Knowing DRey, he probably wouldn't feel comfortable without putting at least one actual scum in here.
Weak but favorable for LC. I could see scumLC starting the bus this way, but a genuine push is more likely.
I remember that post. It didn't read like a slip, more like DRey felt logically the scum had some way to screw with the Aeon clock. Given he was scum, they probably do. I don't see why this means Ganderin is scum?
Man, I really suck at finding scum.
Vote: Void
Props for being willing to put in the effort, but this isn't usually a townie mindset. I don't know your personality very well, but more likely than not, this is an example of scum trying the "so-much-effort-I-must-be-town" trick.
Town:
AlphaInsidious
Leaning Town:
Dancing Mad (r. Burstinatrix)
Iso (r. Gigas1)
Liquidity Crisis
Leaning Scum:
Brinatoo
Wrath_of_DoG
Scum:
Void
scumDRey similarly delayed his claim in Clue. Do you have any recent examples of how townDRey claims under pressure?
As I clarified before, I have yet to reconsider your stance on Seppel's wagon in light of his alignment. This discussion can be considered in a much more fruitful fashion after I have done so. In the abstract, however, both DRey and Seppel flipping scum does not logically make you less likely to be scum.
You are also severely underestimating your contribution to both wagons. We may have differing interpretations of "major force," as both DRey and Seppel would have been lynched regardless of your position.
I'll concede that I haven't reevaluated your stance on the Seppel wagon. That caveat notwithstanding, busing partners in your position is not unlikely in the slightest. Busing theoretically is a trade-off in which you sacrifice a partner in exchange for town cred. In practice, however, most players have little weight on the actual result of the lynch. Effectively, you can superficially solidify your position without noticeably increasing the chance of either partner's death.
Being correct doesn't make the stance any less suspect. It was forced, whether it was to expedite a mislynch or to bus a partner.
@Mzztr: Also, if I die tonight, you're welcome to shoot Guardman the night/day after.
His stance with regards to the Zas wagon.
Mechanical = role reason. I'm don't see it being necessary to claim any more.
That makes a lot more sense. One of my abilities is a one-shot ability revealing only to me the alignment of a dead player. This led me to believe that this game would have no/partial reveals. Seppel's ability was odd in comparison because it revealed it to the entire town rather than to him only, but DRey's alignment flip confused me as to the utility of either of our abilities. Seppel actually being the janitor and using that as a basis for a falseclaim explains both discrepancies.
Vote: Seppel
Also, the fact that DRey's alignment was revealed is not consistent with what I would expect from my role either. That is, Seppel's third ability should not count against him because of the DRey flip.
Good catch - I agree entirely.
=================
The above is an example of of thorough analysis that actively exploits the differences between a scum and townie mindset. Much of the giant quote wars of the last few pages have been overly concerned with logic and other contradictions. It's making it very difficult to follow the thread at all, and I skimmed only very loosely over many of them, finding no lack of words but a significant dearth of valid scumhunting. I think Wrath_of_Dog is likely still a good place to look into, and I should try to get around to scanning his cited scum games.
Drey's situation here echoes his lynch in Clue. Pale Mage''s stance is very representative of the case as a whole:
The bolded is an essential qualifier. I wouldn't go as far as to shoehorn Drey's quirk as a "Fear/Pride issue," but his personality is definitely at play here. More than usual, Drey prioritizes winning the argument. This can push him to adopt stances, such as the one that PM criticizes, that are fairly likely artificial. This makes him, and players of similar mindset, very difficult to read in the context of arguments because they have identical motivation regardless of alignment in such settings. It doesn't help that many players mistakenly interpret this behavior as inherently scummy and obfuscate the situation. To this end:
@Drey: Would you provide a concise three or four sentences on how you feel about some of your most confident reads?
This is poor logic. Confirming one of his abilities doesn't make him more likely to be town in the slightest - it means simply that he does, indeed, possess that ability.
I don't see how any of the behaviors you described is indicative of scum. Yes, he's dragging his heels and trying to avoid scrutiny. The problem with both of those behaviors is that they are natural behaviors that are performed identically by both town and scum.
It's your call. Behaviorally, I'm fine with your lynch.
===============
Alpha's being cryptic, but as far as I can tell, I believe he's misguided. He explicitly states that he doesn't "have reason to say Asian is town based on his claim," but also states that Asian being alive is mechanically beneficial to him. I believe the latter reason is coloring his judgment.
Regardless, I certainly don't think that both Alpha and Asian are scum. As it is, I can agree with lynching Asian later if Alpha feels that the mechanical benefits are worth it.
I need to check out some of WoD's recent scum games.