Playing Mesmeric Orb, you really need to also run an Eldrazi Titan. Their face when you Orb your Eldrazi, and all those Snapcasters, Glimpses, and Fetches go back into your library.
Bad advice, you never want a dead draw like that. So what if my spells go back in, it just makes my library the same composition as it was before, there's no advantage to it, and perhaps even makes it worse. Your fetches go back in, your Snapcasters in hand have no targets anymore, any spells you've already snapped don't get shuffled back in so it further dilutes your good spells. If your library is in danger of getting milled before your opponent, you're doing something horribly wrong, given that you should also be hitting their library with your mill spells.
Back to Inquisition talk, I agree that it's a bad top-deck, and never a target for Snapcaster. It's entirely possible you use it and have no targets for them to discard, which sucks. But early game as a way to slow down either their creatures or their ramp, it is an awesome play - I like having two, it seems like a good amount.
I already had Breaking//Entering, but I put in an order for Yahenni's Expertise to try out that combo. I think it may require some practice to optimize lines of play, so unless it blows me away immediately, I'll likely leave it out of my list for the tournament in 2.5 weeks. I unfortunately won't get enough games in with it between now and then I don't think.
One thing I noticed about your lists - you don't run any Inquisition of Kozilek. I think the card is outstanding, especially in combination with Surgical effects, so you can look at their hand with IoK and strip them with the Surgical. I run two but I love having them in opening hand on the play, I think it's one of the strongest plays you can make. Have you tried them and not liked them for some reason? I suggest slotting some in if you haven't!
My thoughts:
List 1:
3 Surgicals main and 3 Extirpate in the side is probably a bit much, and you can probably make use of those sideboard slots more effectively. I'm split on Profane Memento - it's good in the same matches that Crypt Incursion is good, so not sure how I feel about having both. It might be an idea, as you've done in the other lists, to include some Dispels to make sure your Crypt Incursion gets through a Skullcrack for example. I like Leyline of Sanctity in Esper colours, stops a lots of spell based Burn, Lightning Storm, Valakut etc, but for the most part those are good matchups for us. It's also good against Jund and 8-rack like you mentioned, which would be bad matchups for us. Great Esper list in general, I've just personally found that Esper manabase is too painful when all you're splashing for is Path (but Path can definitely be worth splashing for and you get sideboard slots). Give you're in Esper, I think I'd want Stony Silence and Ghostly Prison in the board. Also, I think we disagree about Crabs when they're your only non-Snapcaster creatures, I think they're not worth it.
List 2:
Very close to my list, so I like it! Same thing with Extirpates in the board, a bit much, and same thing about the Crabs. 3 Ensnaring Bridge main, interesting. Makes me wonder about putting both of mine in the mainboard.
List 3:
Love it! Breaking//Entering for us isn't a dead card even if we have to cast it without Yahennis. Yahennis is a good sweeper anyway, let alone with the free spell attached. If that free spell is Breaking//Entering, we're in business. Fabulous idea that makes me want to test it out too. I like the unconditional kill of Damnation, but Yahenni's is always a huge tempo boost for us.
I noticed you run 3 Shelldock Isles in all of your lists. You haven't found any problems with the ETB tapped aspect of it? It's sometimes nice to have to get that last bit of gas/card advantage at the end of the game for the kill though. I only run 1 but might go to 2
Here's what I'm currently going to switch my list to. I don't have Engineered Explosives and not sure if I'll be able to procure any in time for the tournament.
Surgical Extraction. Well thats a topic for discussion who is playing it wrong) In my opinion you can't be satisfied with it in your opening hand vs Burn, Affinity, Bushwhacker Zoo and other super fast decks with a lot of threats. You said you were happy casting it to extract Eidolons and died t4. Is this good? This resembles me my friend who randomly plays mill spells in his draft decks (not mill). When he hits something good with it he thinks thats good, in reality its a straight wasted card on top of a chance he helped his opponent with graveyard shenanigans. He thinks mill cards are good but he vastly overvalues them. While Surgical is not a complete waste, it can hit a card in opp's hand, it mills, it lowers draws quality (if good target is chosen). But imo all of this is not enough in many situations. Chance of hitting small, it mills 1-3, draw quality difference is negligible, similar to deck thining due to fetches, Funeral boost is only 2 cards. Compare it to Crab you dont play: Crab is gas, fills 1cmc spot on curve, it blocks, it mills - everything we need.
In my opinion Surgicals' place in the sideboard waiting for combo matchup.
No problem! No offense taken I was just hoping for suggestions for replacements since I know there's still room to improve. Sorry if I sounded too crass in my response.
Thanks for linking your list - I see we share a lot of cards in common. I'm on a creatureless list outside of Snapcaster, so Crab would be the only target for their removal, which every deck will be packing. By having no creatures, I expect they will have useless cards in hand G1 at least. It hurt me to take the Crabs out, I agree they've been a staple, but sometimes it's mill 3 or mill 0, in which case a Surgical Extraction is actually just as effective a use of 1 mana. I was even running off-colour fetches (flooded stand and marsh flats) to optimize it, though now they help turn on Revolt if needed.
I'm not of the same mindset as your buddy regarding mill cards - any cards milled off the top are definitely random and you can't think "Yes! I got rid of his XXX", because just as often you won't get rid of XXX and it will help your opponent draw into it. I've played against guys that go "Ah, your mill plan is screwing up my land draws!" uh huh... But for Surgical, it's non-random. It does lower their draw quality. In a deck that has particularly potent threats against you, I'm thinking Tarmogoyf here in particular, it's worth a card and B to make sure you never see them. If you're against a deck with limited total threats (Reanimator, most Trons, even Bant Eldrazi), you can do a pretty good job of taking them out of their deck, especially if you're Snapcasting it back once you've seen their hand from a previous Surgical or IoK or whatever else. I see we agree on how good it is vs combo though (Ad Nauseam is an easy match for just that reason).
And yea, in my example I took out his Eidolons but died T4 to basically a nut hand against us - I just meant to point out that if Tarmogoyf had been in the yard (archive trap and no goyf in there, unfortunate), it would've been my target, and I likely would've won instead of lost. But I agree - burn/zoo decks with tons of threats are not the ideal matchup to have a Surgical in opening hand.
You say Victim of Night is bad because it costs BB, and Surgical is bad because of 2 life, but you run Dismember in the main. Are you normally paying 4 life, or 1BB for it? 4 life is a lot to pay to kill something, and if you're paying 1BB (or even 1B + 2 life), what is it killing that Victim of Night or Go for the Throat isn't killing? I would contend VoN and GFFT kill even more stuff than Dismember. 5/6 Tarmogoyf? Dismember is great to splash in decks with colours that don't have removal (UG for example) but we're in black - we have great catch-all kill spells for 2 mana, or in your case 1 mana using Murderous Cut. Why would you run dismember instead of more of those?
Mishra's bauble is to help you turn on revolt for Push I assume? Seems like a filler spot that just reduces your deck size and doesn't provide much advantage, though I guess reducing deck size can be seen as advantageous. The only issue is if you hold it up waiting to use it to trigger revolt, it's effectively denied you a card for however many turns that is.
Running Jace - I get that he'll flip pretty easily a lot of the time, at which point he becomes a Snapcaster mage for a turn, then pumps their creatures down if he survives. Seems like a slightly less effective Snapcaster in terms of ability, but can also be a blocker or absorb damage. What's your opinion of him, and why only a 1-of? On the same point, Snapcasters work really well with Mesmeric Orb - I suggest you try them if you have them/can afford them!
How do you like Sphinx's Tutelage? It seems really slow to me, like a bad Mesmeric Orb. I see synergy with Visions of Beyond, but at that point I think I'd rather just cast a Mind Funeral or even a Breaking//Entering.
I've been back and forth on Jace's Phantasm, but don't like diluting the mill gameplan. That said, if I'm taking Orbs to the sideboard and using them against Leyline of Sanctity decks, it might be an idea to try the Phantasm in the board also/instead, since opponents will likely take out creature removal for G2, and a Leyline doesn't stop me from beating them in the face with a flier.
I see your Dispel in the board and think it's decent to force one of your spells through. I'd be thinking of holding it up for Crypt Incursion for example, in case of a Skullcrack or a counterspell of some sort. Interesting thought.
Note that both Timba and SkyLagger have 11 or so creatures so that increases Crab's value because they aren't going to demand all their removal. If you don't play Scribe and Phantasm then all the removal will be saved for the Crab making it a bad card. Nobody really cares about Snap being that he is just a 2/1 so if you only run 4x Crab and 4x Snap then everyone will save for the Crab. If you are intent on not playing a creature heavy version then just keep playing without the Crab because nobody else does it and can't really tell you if it is worth cutting or putting into the sideboard when you hope they board out removal etc... Engineered Explosives is a legit card even if you are only in 2 colors. I don't see your list but would suggest that because being able to play a sweeper on turn 2 or 3 is leaps and bounds different than playing on turn 4. I still recommend Gemstone Caverns as a land for the UB version.
I hear you on the EE - looking to get my hands on a couple of them, I think they're great, just $$$. I don't think it replaces a Damnation though, since it only takes out permanents with 1 or 2 CMC as opposed to all creatures.
edit: To further on EE, you mention being able to sweep on T2 or T3, but that would be only if you're aiming for 0CMC or 1CMC respectively. Getting to T4 isn't usually a problem with IoK and now Push to slow them down. I run 21 lands and 2 Damnations, I don't usually have a problem getting to 4 in time. For smaller sweepers, Drown in Sorrow would be effective also.
Gotta disagree on Gemstone Caverns; I don't think it's that advantageous for us to, effectively, be on the play but not go first, that I'd be willing to draw into a colourless mana source that does nothing except give us. The best part of my deck in going first is a T1 Inquisition, which Gemstone still doesn't enable. I could possible see it for an Esper deck where it also helps smooth out your mana though, but then drawing into it is even worse.
We do have a saying in English, that if you are going to point out problems, be sure to have solutions.
But even if you do not have a solution, you still want to let others know about the problems. Criticism should be constructive.
I've been pondering a shift in mana for Mill. Paradox Engine and Inspiring Statuary beg to be abused, considering all the card draw we have, or potentially have.
Problem is, that does slow us down a lot. I'll look at it.
How would you abuse either of those? What nonland permanents are you hoping to untap? What artifacts are you hoping to tap to pay colourless mana, and what would you use that colourless mana for?
Lots of criticism and no positive suggestions, Timba. Thanks for the actual suggestions SkyLagger!
I'm on UB, not Esper, so Ghostly Prison unfortunately isn't an option, but I see how it would be great against Affinity. I put Hurkyll's Recall in there as a nod to Affinity, though there isn't any in my meta to test against. A turn or two might be all I need against them. Any other UB suggestions that would be good against them? I rely a bit on getting my Damnations, cuz if I can hit them T4, then buying myself a turn to get there is all I'm looking for. Ensnaring Bridge does a decent job - I don't think it requires any "setting up", I cast it and it sits at what it sits at. By T3 I'm usually down to 3 or 4 cards anyway, and by T4 I can get down to 2 or 3 without much problem.
Duly noted about Ceremonious Rejection. I agree we should be good against Tron, just prioritize a Ghost Quarter/Extraction setup. I run 3 GQ and 2 Extraction main, was thinking about going to a third Extraction main too, it's so versatile. I'll probably pull it out. In fact, Logic Knot might be a bit better?
Timba, if you don't think Surgical Extractions are nuts in our deck, I don't know what to say, maybe you're playing them wrong? I usually pay B for it instead of life, it's fabulous. You can even think of it as a "Mill 3" if you want, but it's targeted and has a chance of hitting their hand, especially in a world of 4-of spells and creatures. I know Goyf is brutal against us, so is Eidolon, I'm always happy to extract it. Strips combos, strips Tron lands, strips threats, strips fetches if you want your Mind Funerals to hit harder... I've never cast one and been unhappy with it.
Chalice is brought in against Affinity and placed on 0 most of the time. Placing it on 1 hurts us a little, but I don't run crabs, so it hits my surgicals, pushes, and Visions, a total of 10 cards for me; not the end of the world, I'd bring it in against other aggro decks (lock Burn out of Bolts, Lava Spikes, etc). My mill spells still go through. I'd never place it on 2.
I've had Murderous Cut and Set Adrifts in my sideboard previously, and they're pretty good for late game spells, especially when I have Orbs in play. My issue with them was they were a bit slow (uncastable T2 or T3 basically), but with Pushes in there to handle the smaller creatures, they could be a good late game. I just don't want to dedicate so many cards to just creature removal; there's lots of other threats out there that I wanna stop.
Regarding Push, I main 4 and it's been working for me. I don't need to actively look for Revolt triggers unless there's something of 4 CMC that needs handling. I use it for 1 and 2 drops (guide, goyf, mana dorks) and it's outstanding. I've never had one that I couldn't use. Definitely keeping 4 mainboard; if I was Esper I'd probably go with less because you get access to Path.
Victim of Night is great, we can agree to disagree. BB is never a problem for me, even T2, and it's almost as good as Terminate - there's very few creatures that escape it. I'd think about running 2 VON instead of a Go for the Throat, cuz Push is good enough against most artifact creatures (Wurmcoil is the only modern-played exception I can think of).
I like Collective Brutality against Burn. Taking out a guide and stripping a spell from their hand are the usual modes I go for. Gaining 2 life to discard a card is kinda meh; it's better if I actually cared about their life total. Outside of Burn it's not as outstanding, which is why it's SB instead of main.
Thoughtseize will probably go. I even had it against Eldrazi and it's still not that great. I run 2 IoK in the main which is probably fine as far as hand disruption goes.
This opens up slots SB where I think I will move the Orbs to the sideboard and in the 4 of slot, put 1 more Surgical (up to 3 total), 2 Twincast, and maybe another Crypt Incursion or third Twincast. I'll probably shuffle things around to put maybe 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard - great against Leylines which would be our biggest concern. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with how my deck has been performing. I'm tuning it in prep for GP Vancouver on Feb 18/19.
I played again last night and got a bunch of repeats in against Bant Eldrazi. It's definitely going to be a tough matchup. I think I went 2-5 against him in 7 games (with 6 of those post-sideboarding). The games I won I landed Damnation, simply put. In fact, it was Damnation > Snapcaster Mage Damnation > second Damnation. The second game I won we were on top-decks and he used a Stubborn Denial on my Visions of Beyond when I had 6 mana available, so I cast Damnation which allowed me to draw into my mill spell 2 turns later.
One other thing I'll say, I aim to Surgical Extraction on any of (in priority) Eldrazi Temple > Reality Smasher > Thought-Knot Seer. If there's already a Temple in play, I might not bother extracting it and would try to strip their threats directly - they're pretty neutered without those.
My thoughts on the matchup are that outside of Damnation and a few kill spells that slow him down, we're not going to beat them in the long game - we've got to get under them. Towards that end, I've thought about possibly taking out Mesmeric Orbs in favour of something faster. In my case, I think it's either Breaking//Entering, or Twincast. I like Mesmeric Orbs, and they're our only win condition through a Leyline of Sanctity, so they're better post-board when the game gets a little slower/grindier and Leylines are potentially coming down. Otherwise they're a bit slow. With the meta slowing down, I think we have a better chance at racing versus a larger percentage of the field.
My concern is then using up 4 sideboard slots (or maybe just 3) on Mesmeric Orbs. I feel my sideboard is pretty tight at the moment:
2 Hurkyll's Recall for Affinity
2 Chalice of the Void for Cheeri0s/Affinity
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night for more creature based decks (Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi) where I'd sub some in for Fatal Push
2 Spellskite for Burn/Infect
2 Set Adrift as a nice catch-all delay against enchantments, planeswalkers, artifacts (would probably sub for Echoing Truth if I took Orbs out)
1 Ceremonious Rejection as a throw-in against Eldrazi or Tron
2 Collective Brutality are also good against Burn/Infect
2 Thoughtseize are also good against big mana decks
and I'm not sure what I'd take out. Possibly Collective Brutality and Ceremonious Rejection.
I'm going to try out with 4x Twincast subbed in for 4x Mesmeric Orbs and see if I can have a better shot at him.
I also played a matchup against a burn/zoo deck (burn with Tarmogoyfs and Ghor-Clan Rampagers basically) and beat him 2-1. Crypt Incursion just straight wins that match when it comes down (27 and 39 life gained per game, respectively) without being Skullcracked or Atarka's Command, as long as you can get some cards into their yard. Fatal Push is also an all-star, I run 4 in the main. I'm pretty comfortable with this matchup and think my deck is favoured except against a nut draw. The only match I lost, I got him Archive Trap T0, didn't see a Tarmogoyf in the yard, but Extracted all his Eidolons. He went T2 Goyf into T3 Goyf, both of which came down as 5/6s and finished me with Atarka's Command on T4.
Set Adrift is an awesome card if you're running Mesmeric Orbs; it usually only costs U beyond turn 3, it hits just about anything (artifacts, enchantments, creatures, planeswalkers), and since you put it on top of your opponents library, it usually gets milled away next turn instead of just being recast. I run 2 in my sideboard but have debated between it and Echoing Truth because of instant speed and always costing the same if you don't get an early Orb.
You're relying on a multicard combo that doesn't even win you the game on it's own. Why not Duskmantle/Mindcrank if you wanna play a combo? At least when that hits, 5 mana gets you the win, instead of milling maybe half of your opponents deck? It's way less cards taking up space in your deck so you can run more disruption, more counterspells, and more cantrips/digs. You say "we don't have counterspells for nothing" but all you have is 4x Spell Pierce? Which hits non creature spells. So you're basically still scooping to a T1 guide or T2 Goyf. The deck won't even goldfish well, let alone stand up to a single Thoughtseize or IoK hitting your only Sanity Grinding in hand.
A few notes - the deck is 63 cards. I can't find any cuts. Yes, we are low on lands. I need a way to survive till turn 3, when I can get Sanity Grinding on the table. The owls may replace Index to double as chump blockers. I need to be able to dig for Sanity Grinding. The sideboard is more like possible additions.
The biggest problem the deck has, is drawing the big creatures you want in the deck. The only way to get them back in the deck is JTMS or Brainstorm. Clearly, we are in Legacy now. Anyone have any ideas how to put cards from hand into library? I know there is the Eldrazi Titans, but I'd rather stay away from those if possible.
Lots of fetchlands, because every fetchland I draw is two less lands in the deck. Really rather not dump them back in with an Eldrazi.
I reckon if I can smooth out the problem of drawing the unwanted, this could be a lot of fun to play. 2 Sanity Grinding could pretty much be game. A way to put Sanity Grinding back on top of the library would be icing.
{EDIT}
My guru who owns the lgs gave me the heads up on See Beyond.
That makes me modern legal! I'm going to build this and see how it goes, but it will be a month or two.
So you're going to load up your deck with unplayable 5 drop creatures, do nothing until you somehow get a Sanity Grinding or two, and hope to win? T1 Goblin Guide -> scoop? Heck, T1 or T2 any creature is a scoop basically... good luck with that.
Played a match each against Bant Eldrazi and Infect tonight, was quite happy how it went down! Bant Eldrazi is going to be a tough matchup for me I think, it dodges a lot of my interaction (IoK, Push - has a bunch of 3-drops that need revolt to trigger, Reality Smasher), and it's best card is a land (Temple).
Bant Eldrazi (1-2):
G1 on the draw
Kept a 1 land hand with 2 x Archive Trap, Swamp, Ghost Quarter, Push, Visions of Beyond, and Glimpse the Unthinkable. Pretty solid hand, just need to draw into an island, good thing I'm on the draw!
I got him with the Archive Traps but didn't hit a land for 3 draws. I didn't see an Eldrazi Temple, so at his end of turn 3, I floated a black mana, GQed my Swamp into an island, Pushed his Displacer and used the island to cast visions. Drew 3 more non-lands Next turn his Reality Smasher comes down and he proceeded to beat me in pretty well before I drew an answer
+1 Murderous Cut
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Go for the Throat
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Profane Memento
Game 2 on the play:
Kept another hand with 2x Archive Trap, Ghost Quarter, and an island, but also a Surgical Extraction and Mesmeric Orb. When the Archive traps hit due to my Ghost Quarter on his Temple, I saw 3 more Eldrazi Temple and 3x Cavern of Souls hit the yard. Bingo! Also one Reality Smasher, which I extracted, and pulled a copy from his hand too. I also saw 3 x Ancient Stirrings in his hand. His next 2 turns were spent casting Ancient Stirrings for land, then 2 more thought-knots into his hand. He cast the first TKS with ~15 cards left in his library, and took my Glimpse the Unthinkable but saw my Murderous Cut in hand. I drew into my second surgical, cut his TKS, and extract the rest from his hand, he folded with no more threats left to play. Surgical with the MVP for sure.
G3 on the Draw:
Mulligan to 6 because I once again had a 1 land hand. Kept a hand with GQ and Marsh Flats, and just 1 Archive Trap this time, then scryed a second GQ to the bottom of my library. He goes first, plays a Temple, I draw into another (!) Ghost Quarter, and figure since I've got 2, I'm good to go taking out his Temple, so I do. Next turn Temple into Eldrazi Skyspawner. I play my ghost quarter and drop an orb, figuring I should get something down that will help if I can stall the game out. T3 he drops another Temple into Reality Smasher, and that was basically all she wrote. I had a Damnation in hand and would've had 4 mana if I hadn't GQed, but I didn't have the necessary BB for it either.
Overall a tough matchup, even considering how many Archive Traps I started with. So with less ideal draws it would be even harder. Hm - I see Bant Eldrazi picking up more meta share with the bannings and Push-meta, so this is one to think about.
Match 2: Infect (2-1)
I know the match will come down to how many creatures can I remove before he can get one to stick.
G1 on the draw. I keep a hand with IoK, a fetchland, Ghost Quarter, Island, Push, Glimpse, and Mind Funeral.
He plays forest, pass. I can't pass up the juicy IoK when he doesn't play anything on T1, so I fetch > shock > IoK. I see one Blighted Agent, a blossoming defense, might of old krosa, mutagenic, and 3 more lands. I decide to grab the Agent, even though I had a Push to deal with it when it came down. Next turn he draws into another Agent and casts it. My turn I push it during my main phase. He's now stuck without any threats for a few turns, so I go to Mill town with a couple funerals and a glimpse. He eventually draws a Glistener Elf, but it's too late and I mill him out.
+2 Spellskite
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Go for the Throat
+1 Murderous Cut
G2 on the draw:
I kept a hand with an Orb, an Archive Trap, Spellskite, Glimpse, and 3 lands (1 GQ)
He started with an Elf, I have no T1 play. He swings with the elf, pumps with Mutagenic Growth to bring me to 3. I play Spellskite. T3 he pumps the elf with a Blossoming Defense (Spellskite can't grab it ) and swings at me, so I block with it, Spellskite gets -3/-3 from the wither. I get an orb down, and have now drawn another glimpse and funeral, so I've got the gas in my hand if I can buy some time. I block his elf again, spellskite dies, he plays an Inkmoth Nexus, then Rancor on his elf (wouldn't have come down if I kept Spellskite around...). I Mind Funeral him to get him low (less than 15) but a Old Krosa and Rancor give him the last 7 he needs to finish me off.
G3 on the play:
Kept a hand with Archive Trap, GQ, Visions, Glimpse, Orb, Darkslick Shores, Island. Pretty solid!
Hit him with the Archive Trap off his first land, no need to GQ him for it. T2 draw into push, Glimpse to get Visions of Beyond online. I corralled his creatures well all game with my spot removal, until it came down to a top deck battle. He was beating me with Dryad Arbor equipped with a Rancor, and I was hitting him back with Snapcaster (we were both still at ~12-15 life until he Become Immense on it to take my down to 6). I can't recall the exact sequencing, but I drew another Push and a Surgical, along with a Snapcaster in my hand and needed to make sure he didn't have a hexproofing card of his 5 cards to keep his arbor from getting me. His graveyard has 2 Blossoming and 1 Vines of Vastwood, so I extracted the Vines and saw 2 blossomings in his hand (along with 3 lands). Crap, wrong target, but good hand to see. Then I realized I can pay Phyrexian mana during flashback for Snapcaster - went down to 2 life, took both his blossoming defense, pushed his Arbor and sealed it from there.
Overall, the spot removal was awesome against him. Surgical was also a solid MVP, since he has so few threats, you get rid of as many of Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, and Inkmoth as you can and his gameplan basically dies.
The usefulness of Surgical Extraction really shone here. I think I want to increase my copies in the main or at least the side. Stronger against combo decks or decks with limited threats, I'm surprised it performed that well against Bant Eldrazi! Also, Push, actually as good as I expected, but a little tougher to revolt than I would've thought. I think playing with Revolt in mind might be able to help that in terms of sequencing for me though.
re: Emrakul. Yea, I was running a Sadistic Sacrament in the sideboard to deal with it (I'm UB, so no Hide//Seek or RIP) but I don't think it's so prevalent in the meta that if I encounter it, I would probably just expect to lose anyway. Realistically it's a terrible match any way you slice it. I suppose with 2 Extractions and 3 Crypt Incursions (2 main, 1 SB) I could hold one of them up, but the shuffle trigger still happens. Would be a long, grindy game against a Jeskai Nahiri deck, that's for sure.
Interesting argument. I guess a playset of Ghost Quarter would enable your Traps the same as Path.
Are there any mill lists that are completely creatureless? Maybe supplement with LOTV and Ensnaring Bridge? I just like the idea of blanking your opponents removal. But is the Crab too strong? I'm envisioning something like this
Interesting idea with Lili! I think if you were going with Lili and Bridge lockdown, you'd want to play Mesmeric Orbs, gives you the advantage over the long game. I think it's a decent option to test out but I don't have Lilis. I think running Remands with Lili is kind of counter to eachother in that Lili wants to control the board totally and remand wants to slow things down. I tend to not like counterspells in the deck because it requires you to hold up mana, whereas most of our mill spells are sorceries. But thinking about it a bit more with Mesmeric Orbs, we're going for the control style/long game, so it might be worth running some counters for the early game and casting our mill spells T4+ where we can hit a Glimpse and still hold up mana for Mana Leak or Logic Knot for example. It gets into the Esper-style distinction of Tap-Out or Draw-Go flavours.
I'm running basically creatureless here - the Snapcasters being the exception, but they're not really there for being a creature (though flash blocking can sometimes get opponents by surprise). They work outstanding with the Orbs; even if I don't spend all my mana, I'll tap out at opponents EOT to give myself more options for Snappy in my yard. The best thing about it is that you can run fewer of each card since they're semi-tutorable (ie: there will usually be a Crypt Incursion in my yard so 2-of is sufficient).
I just spotted Oboro still in my list after removing Crabs. I guess it's still got some utility in case I need to mana fix myself with Ghost Quarter, but I doubt that'll happen. Just makes me a little more vulnerable to Blood Moon which I don't really like.
I took my Sunken Ruins out completely. Sometimes they're colourless mana and that sucks. Opening hand of Ghost Quarter and Sunken Ruins sucks - there's no dire need for filtering in a 2-colour deck in my opinion.
Between IoK, Collective Brutality, and Fatal Push, I think I've now got enough creature control to handle most aggro decks, which were our biggest problems.
I foresee Eldrazi and Tron of all sorts making a rise with the bannings and printing of Push. Tron I can handle with GQ and Surgical (might put more in the main or the side in fact) but Eldrazi can be problematic (TKS on T2... ugh). Ceremonious Rejection is one that I've contemplated in the board, though Mana Leak or Logic Knot might be better for it's versatility. I also keep the less-conditional removals (Go for Throat, Victim of Night, Murderous Cut) for bigger creatures, or just to bring in against creature heavy decks.
My sideboard probably has room to improve and focus more on the bad matchups in particular. I'm questioning Profane Memento (good against decks with Skullcrack effects) and possibly Spellskite (given we now have better removal for infect/aggro) in favour of some counter magic or just increasing the count of some of the other stuff that's there.
I'd love to hear other opinions on my list, there's definitely room for improvement. The only obvious non-bo is Visions and Ensnaring Bridge. It's rare (but has happened) where I draw Visions while a bridge is locking down my opponent. The best play there is to cast it opponents EOT and cast as much as I can during my turn, since it's usually late game by that point.
I'm playing with some buddies tonight who run Infect and Bant Eldrazi - will hopefully get a few matches in against them to see what causes us issues with the recent changes!
Push is not better than Path. It doesn't hit Tasigur or Angler. It's just a different card. Both are good. I would keep white since path enables Archive Trap
Push hits most things that we care about (things that come down fast and pressure us). There are a couple of threats, like Angler and Tasigur, that you mentioned. I will be keeping some Go for the Throat and Victim of Night in the side for those and others like them (Reality Smasher, other giant threats). Aside from the delve cards, since I run Mesmeric Orbs I'd almost rather Vapor Snag the big guys. They'll cast them again, but the Orbs will make them pay for it.
I think an overlooked advantage of UB, aside from less painful lands, is the ability to main deck Ghost Quarter. This helps us in SO many matchups! Extracting a Tron piece is our out against them, and this shuts Tron off and gets a piece into the yard. GQ on Inkmoth stops the toughest infect threat. GQ gets rid of lands out of the opponents decks and makes Mind Funeral hit harder. I think trying GQ in an esper shell will even further mess up your colour sources.
Push helped out against some of our worst matchups, arguably helping UBx in general and the B+R hits infect and dredge, I think we're sitting pretty in the meta right now.
Bad advice, you never want a dead draw like that. So what if my spells go back in, it just makes my library the same composition as it was before, there's no advantage to it, and perhaps even makes it worse. Your fetches go back in, your Snapcasters in hand have no targets anymore, any spells you've already snapped don't get shuffled back in so it further dilutes your good spells. If your library is in danger of getting milled before your opponent, you're doing something horribly wrong, given that you should also be hitting their library with your mill spells.
Back to Inquisition talk, I agree that it's a bad top-deck, and never a target for Snapcaster. It's entirely possible you use it and have no targets for them to discard, which sucks. But early game as a way to slow down either their creatures or their ramp, it is an awesome play - I like having two, it seems like a good amount.
I already had Breaking//Entering, but I put in an order for Yahenni's Expertise to try out that combo. I think it may require some practice to optimize lines of play, so unless it blows me away immediately, I'll likely leave it out of my list for the tournament in 2.5 weeks. I unfortunately won't get enough games in with it between now and then I don't think.
My thoughts:
List 1:
3 Surgicals main and 3 Extirpate in the side is probably a bit much, and you can probably make use of those sideboard slots more effectively. I'm split on Profane Memento - it's good in the same matches that Crypt Incursion is good, so not sure how I feel about having both. It might be an idea, as you've done in the other lists, to include some Dispels to make sure your Crypt Incursion gets through a Skullcrack for example. I like Leyline of Sanctity in Esper colours, stops a lots of spell based Burn, Lightning Storm, Valakut etc, but for the most part those are good matchups for us. It's also good against Jund and 8-rack like you mentioned, which would be bad matchups for us. Great Esper list in general, I've just personally found that Esper manabase is too painful when all you're splashing for is Path (but Path can definitely be worth splashing for and you get sideboard slots). Give you're in Esper, I think I'd want Stony Silence and Ghostly Prison in the board. Also, I think we disagree about Crabs when they're your only non-Snapcaster creatures, I think they're not worth it.
List 2:
Very close to my list, so I like it! Same thing with Extirpates in the board, a bit much, and same thing about the Crabs. 3 Ensnaring Bridge main, interesting. Makes me wonder about putting both of mine in the mainboard.
List 3:
Love it! Breaking//Entering for us isn't a dead card even if we have to cast it without Yahennis. Yahennis is a good sweeper anyway, let alone with the free spell attached. If that free spell is Breaking//Entering, we're in business. Fabulous idea that makes me want to test it out too. I like the unconditional kill of Damnation, but Yahenni's is always a huge tempo boost for us.
I noticed you run 3 Shelldock Isles in all of your lists. You haven't found any problems with the ETB tapped aspect of it? It's sometimes nice to have to get that last bit of gas/card advantage at the end of the game for the kill though. I only run 1 but might go to 2
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
3 Swamp
Spells (33)
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
2 Visions of Beyond
2 Damnation
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
3 Crypt Incursion
2 Collective Brutality
3 Twincast
4 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts (1)
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spellskite
2 Echoing Truth
1 Murderous Cut
2 Chalice of the Void
2 Set Adrift
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
3 Mesmeric Orb
Here's what I'm currently going to switch my list to. I don't have Engineered Explosives and not sure if I'll be able to procure any in time for the tournament.
No problem! No offense taken
Thanks for linking your list - I see we share a lot of cards in common. I'm on a creatureless list outside of Snapcaster, so Crab would be the only target for their removal, which every deck will be packing. By having no creatures, I expect they will have useless cards in hand G1 at least. It hurt me to take the Crabs out, I agree they've been a staple, but sometimes it's mill 3 or mill 0, in which case a Surgical Extraction is actually just as effective a use of 1 mana. I was even running off-colour fetches (flooded stand and marsh flats) to optimize it, though now they help turn on Revolt if needed.
I'm not of the same mindset as your buddy regarding mill cards - any cards milled off the top are definitely random and you can't think "Yes! I got rid of his XXX", because just as often you won't get rid of XXX and it will help your opponent draw into it. I've played against guys that go "Ah, your mill plan is screwing up my land draws!" uh huh... But for Surgical, it's non-random. It does lower their draw quality. In a deck that has particularly potent threats against you, I'm thinking Tarmogoyf here in particular, it's worth a card and B to make sure you never see them. If you're against a deck with limited total threats (Reanimator, most Trons, even Bant Eldrazi), you can do a pretty good job of taking them out of their deck, especially if you're Snapcasting it back once you've seen their hand from a previous Surgical or IoK or whatever else. I see we agree on how good it is vs combo though (Ad Nauseam is an easy match for just that reason).
And yea, in my example I took out his Eidolons but died T4 to basically a nut hand against us - I just meant to point out that if Tarmogoyf had been in the yard (archive trap and no goyf in there, unfortunate), it would've been my target, and I likely would've won instead of lost. But I agree - burn/zoo decks with tons of threats are not the ideal matchup to have a Surgical in opening hand.
You say Victim of Night is bad because it costs BB, and Surgical is bad because of 2 life, but you run Dismember in the main. Are you normally paying 4 life, or 1BB for it? 4 life is a lot to pay to kill something, and if you're paying 1BB (or even 1B + 2 life), what is it killing that Victim of Night or Go for the Throat isn't killing? I would contend VoN and GFFT kill even more stuff than Dismember. 5/6 Tarmogoyf? Dismember is great to splash in decks with colours that don't have removal (UG for example) but we're in black - we have great catch-all kill spells for 2 mana, or in your case 1 mana using Murderous Cut. Why would you run dismember instead of more of those?
Mishra's bauble is to help you turn on revolt for Push I assume? Seems like a filler spot that just reduces your deck size and doesn't provide much advantage, though I guess reducing deck size can be seen as advantageous. The only issue is if you hold it up waiting to use it to trigger revolt, it's effectively denied you a card for however many turns that is.
Running Jace - I get that he'll flip pretty easily a lot of the time, at which point he becomes a Snapcaster mage for a turn, then pumps their creatures down if he survives. Seems like a slightly less effective Snapcaster in terms of ability, but can also be a blocker or absorb damage. What's your opinion of him, and why only a 1-of? On the same point, Snapcasters work really well with Mesmeric Orb - I suggest you try them if you have them/can afford them!
How do you like Sphinx's Tutelage? It seems really slow to me, like a bad Mesmeric Orb. I see synergy with Visions of Beyond, but at that point I think I'd rather just cast a Mind Funeral or even a Breaking//Entering.
I've been back and forth on Jace's Phantasm, but don't like diluting the mill gameplan. That said, if I'm taking Orbs to the sideboard and using them against Leyline of Sanctity decks, it might be an idea to try the Phantasm in the board also/instead, since opponents will likely take out creature removal for G2, and a Leyline doesn't stop me from beating them in the face with a flier.
I see your Dispel in the board and think it's decent to force one of your spells through. I'd be thinking of holding it up for Crypt Incursion for example, in case of a Skullcrack or a counterspell of some sort. Interesting thought.
I hear you on the EE - looking to get my hands on a couple of them, I think they're great, just $$$. I don't think it replaces a Damnation though, since it only takes out permanents with 1 or 2 CMC as opposed to all creatures.
edit: To further on EE, you mention being able to sweep on T2 or T3, but that would be only if you're aiming for 0CMC or 1CMC respectively. Getting to T4 isn't usually a problem with IoK and now Push to slow them down. I run 21 lands and 2 Damnations, I don't usually have a problem getting to 4 in time. For smaller sweepers, Drown in Sorrow would be effective also.
Gotta disagree on Gemstone Caverns; I don't think it's that advantageous for us to, effectively, be on the play but not go first, that I'd be willing to draw into a colourless mana source that does nothing except give us. The best part of my deck in going first is a T1 Inquisition, which Gemstone still doesn't enable. I could possible see it for an Esper deck where it also helps smooth out your mana though, but then drawing into it is even worse.
How would you abuse either of those? What nonland permanents are you hoping to untap? What artifacts are you hoping to tap to pay colourless mana, and what would you use that colourless mana for?
I'm on UB, not Esper, so Ghostly Prison unfortunately isn't an option, but I see how it would be great against Affinity. I put Hurkyll's Recall in there as a nod to Affinity, though there isn't any in my meta to test against. A turn or two might be all I need against them. Any other UB suggestions that would be good against them? I rely a bit on getting my Damnations, cuz if I can hit them T4, then buying myself a turn to get there is all I'm looking for. Ensnaring Bridge does a decent job - I don't think it requires any "setting up", I cast it and it sits at what it sits at. By T3 I'm usually down to 3 or 4 cards anyway, and by T4 I can get down to 2 or 3 without much problem.
Duly noted about Ceremonious Rejection. I agree we should be good against Tron, just prioritize a Ghost Quarter/Extraction setup. I run 3 GQ and 2 Extraction main, was thinking about going to a third Extraction main too, it's so versatile. I'll probably pull it out. In fact, Logic Knot might be a bit better?
Timba, if you don't think Surgical Extractions are nuts in our deck, I don't know what to say, maybe you're playing them wrong? I usually pay B for it instead of life, it's fabulous. You can even think of it as a "Mill 3" if you want, but it's targeted and has a chance of hitting their hand, especially in a world of 4-of spells and creatures. I know Goyf is brutal against us, so is Eidolon, I'm always happy to extract it. Strips combos, strips Tron lands, strips threats, strips fetches if you want your Mind Funerals to hit harder... I've never cast one and been unhappy with it.
Chalice is brought in against Affinity and placed on 0 most of the time. Placing it on 1 hurts us a little, but I don't run crabs, so it hits my surgicals, pushes, and Visions, a total of 10 cards for me; not the end of the world, I'd bring it in against other aggro decks (lock Burn out of Bolts, Lava Spikes, etc). My mill spells still go through. I'd never place it on 2.
I've had Murderous Cut and Set Adrifts in my sideboard previously, and they're pretty good for late game spells, especially when I have Orbs in play. My issue with them was they were a bit slow (uncastable T2 or T3 basically), but with Pushes in there to handle the smaller creatures, they could be a good late game. I just don't want to dedicate so many cards to just creature removal; there's lots of other threats out there that I wanna stop.
Regarding Push, I main 4 and it's been working for me. I don't need to actively look for Revolt triggers unless there's something of 4 CMC that needs handling. I use it for 1 and 2 drops (guide, goyf, mana dorks) and it's outstanding. I've never had one that I couldn't use. Definitely keeping 4 mainboard; if I was Esper I'd probably go with less because you get access to Path.
Victim of Night is great, we can agree to disagree. BB is never a problem for me, even T2, and it's almost as good as Terminate - there's very few creatures that escape it. I'd think about running 2 VON instead of a Go for the Throat, cuz Push is good enough against most artifact creatures (Wurmcoil is the only modern-played exception I can think of).
I like Collective Brutality against Burn. Taking out a guide and stripping a spell from their hand are the usual modes I go for. Gaining 2 life to discard a card is kinda meh; it's better if I actually cared about their life total. Outside of Burn it's not as outstanding, which is why it's SB instead of main.
Thoughtseize will probably go. I even had it against Eldrazi and it's still not that great. I run 2 IoK in the main which is probably fine as far as hand disruption goes.
This opens up slots SB where I think I will move the Orbs to the sideboard and in the 4 of slot, put 1 more Surgical (up to 3 total), 2 Twincast, and maybe another Crypt Incursion or third Twincast. I'll probably shuffle things around to put maybe 3 Echoing Truth in the sideboard - great against Leylines which would be our biggest concern. Otherwise I'm pretty happy with how my deck has been performing. I'm tuning it in prep for GP Vancouver on Feb 18/19.
I landed Ensnaring Bridge against him a couple times, but it got hit with Nature's Claim and Worldbreaker immediately each time.
One other thing I'll say, I aim to Surgical Extraction on any of (in priority) Eldrazi Temple > Reality Smasher > Thought-Knot Seer. If there's already a Temple in play, I might not bother extracting it and would try to strip their threats directly - they're pretty neutered without those.
My thoughts on the matchup are that outside of Damnation and a few kill spells that slow him down, we're not going to beat them in the long game - we've got to get under them. Towards that end, I've thought about possibly taking out Mesmeric Orbs in favour of something faster. In my case, I think it's either Breaking//Entering, or Twincast. I like Mesmeric Orbs, and they're our only win condition through a Leyline of Sanctity, so they're better post-board when the game gets a little slower/grindier and Leylines are potentially coming down. Otherwise they're a bit slow. With the meta slowing down, I think we have a better chance at racing versus a larger percentage of the field.
My concern is then using up 4 sideboard slots (or maybe just 3) on Mesmeric Orbs. I feel my sideboard is pretty tight at the moment:
2 Hurkyll's Recall for Affinity
2 Chalice of the Void for Cheeri0s/Affinity
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night for more creature based decks (Grixis Delver, Bant Eldrazi) where I'd sub some in for Fatal Push
2 Spellskite for Burn/Infect
2 Set Adrift as a nice catch-all delay against enchantments, planeswalkers, artifacts (would probably sub for Echoing Truth if I took Orbs out)
1 Ceremonious Rejection as a throw-in against Eldrazi or Tron
2 Collective Brutality are also good against Burn/Infect
2 Thoughtseize are also good against big mana decks
and I'm not sure what I'd take out. Possibly Collective Brutality and Ceremonious Rejection.
I'm going to try out with 4x Twincast subbed in for 4x Mesmeric Orbs and see if I can have a better shot at him.
I also played a matchup against a burn/zoo deck (burn with Tarmogoyfs and Ghor-Clan Rampagers basically) and beat him 2-1. Crypt Incursion just straight wins that match when it comes down (27 and 39 life gained per game, respectively) without being Skullcracked or Atarka's Command, as long as you can get some cards into their yard. Fatal Push is also an all-star, I run 4 in the main. I'm pretty comfortable with this matchup and think my deck is favoured except against a nut draw. The only match I lost, I got him Archive Trap T0, didn't see a Tarmogoyf in the yard, but Extracted all his Eidolons. He went T2 Goyf into T3 Goyf, both of which came down as 5/6s and finished me with Atarka's Command on T4.
So you're going to load up your deck with unplayable 5 drop creatures, do nothing until you somehow get a Sanity Grinding or two, and hope to win? T1 Goblin Guide -> scoop? Heck, T1 or T2 any creature is a scoop basically... good luck with that.
Bant Eldrazi (1-2):
G1 on the draw
Kept a 1 land hand with 2 x Archive Trap, Swamp, Ghost Quarter, Push, Visions of Beyond, and Glimpse the Unthinkable. Pretty solid hand, just need to draw into an island, good thing I'm on the draw!
I got him with the Archive Traps but didn't hit a land for 3 draws. I didn't see an Eldrazi Temple, so at his end of turn 3, I floated a black mana, GQed my Swamp into an island, Pushed his Displacer and used the island to cast visions. Drew 3 more non-lands
Sideboard:
-2 Push
-2 Inquisition
-2 Collective Brutality
+1 Murderous Cut
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Go for the Throat
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Profane Memento
Game 2 on the play:
Kept another hand with 2x Archive Trap, Ghost Quarter, and an island, but also a Surgical Extraction and Mesmeric Orb. When the Archive traps hit due to my Ghost Quarter on his Temple, I saw 3 more Eldrazi Temple and 3x Cavern of Souls hit the yard. Bingo! Also one Reality Smasher, which I extracted, and pulled a copy from his hand too. I also saw 3 x Ancient Stirrings in his hand. His next 2 turns were spent casting Ancient Stirrings for land, then 2 more thought-knots into his hand. He cast the first TKS with ~15 cards left in his library, and took my Glimpse the Unthinkable but saw my Murderous Cut in hand. I drew into my second surgical, cut his TKS, and extract the rest from his hand, he folded with no more threats left to play. Surgical with the MVP for sure.
G3 on the Draw:
Mulligan to 6 because I once again had a 1 land hand. Kept a hand with GQ and Marsh Flats, and just 1 Archive Trap this time, then scryed a second GQ to the bottom of my library. He goes first, plays a Temple, I draw into another (!) Ghost Quarter, and figure since I've got 2, I'm good to go taking out his Temple, so I do. Next turn Temple into Eldrazi Skyspawner. I play my ghost quarter and drop an orb, figuring I should get something down that will help if I can stall the game out. T3 he drops another Temple into Reality Smasher, and that was basically all she wrote. I had a Damnation in hand and would've had 4 mana if I hadn't GQed, but I didn't have the necessary BB for it either.
Overall a tough matchup, even considering how many Archive Traps I started with. So with less ideal draws it would be even harder. Hm - I see Bant Eldrazi picking up more meta share with the bannings and Push-meta, so this is one to think about.
Match 2: Infect (2-1)
I know the match will come down to how many creatures can I remove before he can get one to stick.
G1 on the draw. I keep a hand with IoK, a fetchland, Ghost Quarter, Island, Push, Glimpse, and Mind Funeral.
He plays forest, pass. I can't pass up the juicy IoK when he doesn't play anything on T1, so I fetch > shock > IoK. I see one Blighted Agent, a blossoming defense, might of old krosa, mutagenic, and 3 more lands. I decide to grab the Agent, even though I had a Push to deal with it when it came down. Next turn he draws into another Agent and casts it. My turn I push it during my main phase. He's now stuck without any threats for a few turns, so I go to Mill town with a couple funerals and a glimpse. He eventually draws a Glistener Elf, but it's too late and I mill him out.
Sideboard:
-2 Crypt Incursion
-1 Ensnaring Bridge
-2 Damnation
+2 Spellskite
+1 Victim of Night
+1 Go for the Throat
+1 Murderous Cut
G2 on the draw:
I kept a hand with an Orb, an Archive Trap, Spellskite, Glimpse, and 3 lands (1 GQ)
He started with an Elf, I have no T1 play. He swings with the elf, pumps with Mutagenic Growth to bring me to 3. I play Spellskite. T3 he pumps the elf with a Blossoming Defense (Spellskite can't grab it
G3 on the play:
Kept a hand with Archive Trap, GQ, Visions, Glimpse, Orb, Darkslick Shores, Island. Pretty solid!
Hit him with the Archive Trap off his first land, no need to GQ him for it. T2 draw into push, Glimpse to get Visions of Beyond online. I corralled his creatures well all game with my spot removal, until it came down to a top deck battle. He was beating me with Dryad Arbor equipped with a Rancor, and I was hitting him back with Snapcaster (we were both still at ~12-15 life until he Become Immense on it to take my down to 6). I can't recall the exact sequencing, but I drew another Push and a Surgical, along with a Snapcaster in my hand and needed to make sure he didn't have a hexproofing card of his 5 cards to keep his arbor from getting me. His graveyard has 2 Blossoming and 1 Vines of Vastwood, so I extracted the Vines and saw 2 blossomings in his hand (along with 3 lands). Crap, wrong target, but good hand to see. Then I realized I can pay Phyrexian mana during flashback for Snapcaster - went down to 2 life, took both his blossoming defense, pushed his Arbor and sealed it from there.
Overall, the spot removal was awesome against him. Surgical was also a solid MVP, since he has so few threats, you get rid of as many of Glistener Elf, Blighted Agent, and Inkmoth as you can and his gameplan basically dies.
The usefulness of Surgical Extraction really shone here. I think I want to increase my copies in the main or at least the side. Stronger against combo decks or decks with limited threats, I'm surprised it performed that well against Bant Eldrazi! Also, Push, actually as good as I expected, but a little tougher to revolt than I would've thought. I think playing with Revolt in mind might be able to help that in terms of sequencing for me though.
re: Emrakul. Yea, I was running a Sadistic Sacrament in the sideboard to deal with it (I'm UB, so no Hide//Seek or RIP) but I don't think it's so prevalent in the meta that if I encounter it, I would probably just expect to lose anyway. Realistically it's a terrible match any way you slice it. I suppose with 2 Extractions and 3 Crypt Incursions (2 main, 1 SB) I could hold one of them up, but the shuffle trigger still happens. Would be a long, grindy game against a Jeskai Nahiri deck, that's for sure.
Interesting idea with Lili! I think if you were going with Lili and Bridge lockdown, you'd want to play Mesmeric Orbs, gives you the advantage over the long game. I think it's a decent option to test out but I don't have Lilis. I think running Remands with Lili is kind of counter to eachother in that Lili wants to control the board totally and remand wants to slow things down. I tend to not like counterspells in the deck because it requires you to hold up mana, whereas most of our mill spells are sorceries. But thinking about it a bit more with Mesmeric Orbs, we're going for the control style/long game, so it might be worth running some counters for the early game and casting our mill spells T4+ where we can hit a Glimpse and still hold up mana for Mana Leak or Logic Knot for example. It gets into the Esper-style distinction of Tap-Out or Draw-Go flavours.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
3 Ghost Quarter
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
2 Watery Grave
2 Darkslick Shores
3 Island
2 Swamp
Spells (30):
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
2 Damnation
4 Mind Funeral
4 Archive Trap
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Fatal Push
2 Crypt Incursion
2 Collective Brutality
4 Snapcaster Mage
Artifacts (5):
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Crypt Incursion
2 Profane Memento
2 Spellskite
2 Echoing Truth
1 Murderous Cut
1 Victim of Night
1 Go for the Throat
2 Set Adrift
2 Chalice of the Void
I'm running basically creatureless here - the Snapcasters being the exception, but they're not really there for being a creature (though flash blocking can sometimes get opponents by surprise). They work outstanding with the Orbs; even if I don't spend all my mana, I'll tap out at opponents EOT to give myself more options for Snappy in my yard. The best thing about it is that you can run fewer of each card since they're semi-tutorable (ie: there will usually be a Crypt Incursion in my yard so 2-of is sufficient).
I just spotted Oboro still in my list after removing Crabs. I guess it's still got some utility in case I need to mana fix myself with Ghost Quarter, but I doubt that'll happen. Just makes me a little more vulnerable to Blood Moon which I don't really like.
I took my Sunken Ruins out completely. Sometimes they're colourless mana and that sucks. Opening hand of Ghost Quarter and Sunken Ruins sucks - there's no dire need for filtering in a 2-colour deck in my opinion.
Between IoK, Collective Brutality, and Fatal Push, I think I've now got enough creature control to handle most aggro decks, which were our biggest problems.
I foresee Eldrazi and Tron of all sorts making a rise with the bannings and printing of Push. Tron I can handle with GQ and Surgical (might put more in the main or the side in fact) but Eldrazi can be problematic (TKS on T2... ugh). Ceremonious Rejection is one that I've contemplated in the board, though Mana Leak or Logic Knot might be better for it's versatility. I also keep the less-conditional removals (Go for Throat, Victim of Night, Murderous Cut) for bigger creatures, or just to bring in against creature heavy decks.
My sideboard probably has room to improve and focus more on the bad matchups in particular. I'm questioning Profane Memento (good against decks with Skullcrack effects) and possibly Spellskite (given we now have better removal for infect/aggro) in favour of some counter magic or just increasing the count of some of the other stuff that's there.
I'd love to hear other opinions on my list, there's definitely room for improvement. The only obvious non-bo is Visions and Ensnaring Bridge. It's rare (but has happened) where I draw Visions while a bridge is locking down my opponent. The best play there is to cast it opponents EOT and cast as much as I can during my turn, since it's usually late game by that point.
I'm playing with some buddies tonight who run Infect and Bant Eldrazi - will hopefully get a few matches in against them to see what causes us issues with the recent changes!
Cheers
Push hits most things that we care about (things that come down fast and pressure us). There are a couple of threats, like Angler and Tasigur, that you mentioned. I will be keeping some Go for the Throat and Victim of Night in the side for those and others like them (Reality Smasher, other giant threats). Aside from the delve cards, since I run Mesmeric Orbs I'd almost rather Vapor Snag the big guys. They'll cast them again, but the Orbs will make them pay for it.
I think an overlooked advantage of UB, aside from less painful lands, is the ability to main deck Ghost Quarter. This helps us in SO many matchups! Extracting a Tron piece is our out against them, and this shuts Tron off and gets a piece into the yard. GQ on Inkmoth stops the toughest infect threat. GQ gets rid of lands out of the opponents decks and makes Mind Funeral hit harder. I think trying GQ in an esper shell will even further mess up your colour sources.
Push helped out against some of our worst matchups, arguably helping UBx in general and the B+R hits infect and dredge, I think we're sitting pretty in the meta right now.