Dang, up to $18 from 8.5. Glad I've already got my playset.
I think it's better than Extirpate since you can cast it for free, but will Extirpate be next? The extraction effect is one of the keys to mill in my opinion.
Dang, no talk about the new Metallic Mimic for Goblins here? I think in a Gobots build with Kuldotha Rebirth it would be a huge play. Mimic on 2, Rebirth and Bushwhacker on 3 swings for 14.
With Crab standing a lonely vigil, I'm tempted to run a second Verdict (or Damnation for the high-end alternative) in place of the third Funeral. Or I could have a 3/2 split at the expense of an Incursion.
Minor tweaks aside, any thoughts on this potentially suidical, potentially awesome setup?
I'm on a similar list but UB with no white, and on 21 lands (3 GQ)
So:
-4 Path
-2 Ghostly
-1 Verdict
-1 Mind Funeral
-1 Crypt Incursion
+4 Snapcaster
+1 Visions of Beyond
+2 Damnation
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
I was super happy with the list. Although with lots of decks planning to run Push, I'm even debating going mostly creatureless; remove the crabs for the other 2 Mind Funerals and possibly some big creature killers, Victim of Night or Go for the Throat or Murderous Cut or Set Adrift or even Vapor Snag (which would be good synergy with Orbs), or maybe more Surgicals to extract the big creatures before they can come down. I predict we'll see a lot more Tasigur and Gurmag Angler causing us problems where Tarmogoyf did before.
A sidenote, I think Push will even further favour Dredge decks so we'll see them pick up. They don't care if their creature dies, it's coming back later anyway.
I'm also debating some number of Logic Knot in the board to help out in the end game.
I played with my buddies yesterday and put 4 Push in the mainboard proxied up, and shifted my Victim of Night and Go for the Throat to the side. It was worth every slot without a doubt, I never drew it and didn't have a target. Push-Snap-Push came into play against infect (he was actually beating me down regular with 3 Hierarchs on board), used it to dominate a Gruul Zoo (Seeya Goyf!). For UB mill this card is a game changer for sure, I can't think of another deck archetype that it helps out more.
Uncommon printing in a current set, I don't think it's going to be too ridiculously expensive. I think I'm going to pick up 2 playsets of them.
To me, this card makes Esper mill unnecessary. When I ran Esper, it was mostly for Path in the mainboard, and it also gave some sideboard options. But going to UB allows for less painful mana, as well as the inclusion of 3 Ghost Quarter in the main, which is also relevant in a lot of matchups. Between Ghost Quarters and fetches (I run 6) it's usually feasible to activate the revolt trigger.
Other shifts I made to accommodate push was removing Jace's Phantasm completely. I still haven't been sold on it, it's main use to me is as a blocker. Why block when I can Push? So stoked on it.
Super stoked about Fatal Push! Going 3-4 of in my 75 UB mill, it's exactly what the deck needed. I currently run Murderous Cut and Disfigure to deal with creatures and it feels pretty sub-optimal. The fact that this hits Tarmogoyf is huge!
Right. its a fun way to build the deck just be careful with your ratios and curve. Not right for every build. Definitely capable of throwing off your opponents with huge swings though.
Yea, I run a sort-of Goblins deck I call Whackdos (this thread is the most relevant to my deck) that goes for full alpha strike mode - 8 whackers, pact of the titans, devastating summons, and ground rift. Also the regular cohort of guides and loyalists, and spike jester to enable my grenades too. Sometimes you just need that one extra mana to cast the grenade or bolt post combat.
Haven't had a chance to test it out with the SSGs yet, but I managed to get under an infect deck with a good draw the last time I played my buddy, so adding SSGs might make it faster. I guess at the cost of consistency/card advantage though.
Gemstone Cavern a good SB card so you can just have the play G2/G3 no matter what?
Is Simian Spirit Guide worth the tempo?
I think it's okay in mono red, but there's really not much room for it in G/R
I had a t1 blood moon once with two spirit guides. That was one of the most sinister things ive done in modern. And it was against an abzan deck lol.
I think fast mana is good, but you need to understand the costs. The only way to know is to trh it out in whatever brew you are working in.
I used spirit guides in a naya goblin deck quite effectively in place of lands (16 lands + 3-4 ssg).
I discussed this a lot at the time in this thread about a year ago
Currently i use mox opal in gobots so no need...
Its not realh correct or incorrect to use ssg. Its kind of a personal choice - do you want to gamble a bit for a payoff? Also better than topdecking a land past T3.
You've sold me on SSG in being able to replace some of my lands with em. Hadn't considered that! Like you say, usually you just need that mana once to go for the alpha strike, and if it's on turn 2 instead of turn 3, even better.
My mind was on Melira, and the thought occurred to me, 'Might as well use Goyf.'
And then I realized nothing feeds the Goyf quite like 'Mill 10'. I'm actually quite confused as to why no one has mentioned the power of Goyf combined with Mill. Green really adds a whole new element.
Digging deeper, Scapeshift has potential. Probably replace Breaking/Entering with a couple Scapeshift, and Tome Scour. I'm glad you caught that. Helps reduce the logjam at cmc 2, as well. Have to go budget here, as I do not have Zenfetches or Goyfs.
I really like your thinking outside the box here! I've never contemplated adding green, I'm excited to hear your report on it.
I'd think you might even have a chance with the beatdown plan, having Goyfs and Phantasm in there. Side benefit that they will draw more heat away from the crabs for you to land that scapeshift or harrow combo with it.
Go for the Throat can be really really bad. Ichorclaw Myr and Plague Myr are infect threats.
The extraction cards are worth too many free wins to sideboard for me. Of your removal cards, Smother is by far the best. Stops all burn creatures, and hoses Goyf as well.
Edit: if it is a particular creature, Infinite Obliteration is an option. I'm debating adding one in place of a Surgical Extraction.
I don't think I've ever seen an infect list running either of those Myr. The scariest infect artifact creature is Inkmoth Nexus. I think Smother is great, and I also run Victim of Night in my mainboard (1 Victim, 1 Go for Throat). I think Infinite Obliteration is way too slow to pay 3 mana that doesn't deal with a threat already on the board, Surgical is way better for our decks (plus infect doesn't care about our life total).
Re: Infect, I think it's just a brutal matchup. I played against a buddy who just converted his infect deck from legacy to modern last night. He went T1 fetch > Hierarch on the play and I hit him with an Archive Trap. T1 Inquisition of Kozilek to see 2x mutagenic growth, spell pierce, become immense and inkmoth. Took the mutagenic growth, then surgically extracted all his become immense (was in the graveyard due to my archive trap. Pretty savage play T1, but a Pendelhaven came down, and between Hierarch, Pendelhaven, and Inkmoth I was dead 2 turns later. I think a Jace's Phantasm is one of the best defences against something like that, a 3/4 Inkmoth nexus coming at you each turn (outside of any pump spells!) is savage.
I was a bit upset with the deck last week after many months of testing and I challenged myself: "do this **** mill deck work before the end of the week or leave it for good and stop spending hours testing new stuff!".
I gave serious thoughts to the kind of deck Mill is:
- It is not Aggro, as we are ALWAYS a turn slower if we play "Aggro Mill". Lightning Bolt is 1/6 of your opponents' lifepoints for 1 mana (we will consider that most of the decks will fetch or play Ravlands), whereas Glimpse sure is 1/5 of your opponents' library but for 2 mana ! (as the game will at least last 4 turns + 7 cards in opening hand)
- It is not a Combo deck, as 4 Trap, 4 Glimpse, 4 Crabs and 2 Funerals are 14 cards total (which is more than other combo decks need to win).
- It is not a Control deck, as our late game is awful because we lack of counterspells and we do not have Celestial Colonnade, Planeswalkers of huge creatures to win with.
IMHO, the deck is Midrange and cannot be something else. So I took the list of the best Midrange deck of the Modern Meta, Jund/Junk, and tried to "copy" the decks.
Here is the list I came up with:
I have never tried Path, Phantasm AND Inquisition altogether... but I was in a kind of "last resort" mood.
I bought the cards on MTGO with the idea of selling them back after a week or so of testing.
Here are the results:
Losses: 2x Grixis Control; Eternal Command (Missplay); Elves; UBw Control; 2x U Tron; 8 Rack; Nahiri Control; Soul Sisters (Missplay); Nava Burn; Storm (Missplay); Abzan Company; Bring to Ad Nauseam; Token Homebrew.
Wins: Jund; Thopter Combo; 2x Valakut (a guy wished me to get AIDS XD); UW Control; Mono Green Stompy; Affinity; Death & Taxes; Mono Black Zombies; Unidentified Homebrew; GW Tron; Jeskai Ascendancy; Bring to Scapeshift; 2x Kiki Chord; Grixis Control; Budget Bogles.
Before I go further into the detail, it is a bit more of 50% of winning... which answer to the question "is Mill competitive?".
I made several missplays due to MTGO (Surgical Extractions are weird there, as they don't automatically remove the card your targeted in the graveyard.) or just because I suck. (-_-"
Although I am happy with the results, I can't say that they totally match the real field, as players were expecting Dredge and had tons of Grave-hate (say goodbye to Visions of Beyond) and as I moslty encoutered Control players. Control matchup are meh... if they play counterspells, it is tough. If not, it is fine.
Here are some thoughts:
1) I quickly replaced Jace by 2 Snapcaster, as Jace was ALWAYS eating a Bolt, a Path or anything my opponents could throw on him.
2) I keep having lands issue. I tried again, after completing the tests, with 23, 22 and 21 lands, and I have a HUGE proportion of games where I am stuck with 1 or two lands and games I am flooded with 7 & more lands. That just kills me. My record was Turn 8 with 8 lands of the field and 3 in hand.
3) Snapcaster Mage is awesome late game. With this list, I have a lot of early disruption, and i quickly run out of gas. Snapcaster helps me flashing back Visions of Beyon or a mill spell. It was sooooo hepful in the Control Match up !
I am stil not entirely convinced though. It doesn't do anything turn 1-4. But players tend to take it over mill spells with hand disruption, so I guess I'm okay with that.
4) Inquisitions shone in the Aggro and Combo match up, but are so lame against Control... Although they help stabilising the field early game, they are an awful topdeck. I tried with 3, but could not have them when I needed them. So I guess it is 4 or nothing.
5) I HATE Mind Funeral. I am still torn between lowering my curve (and playing with 21 lands) and playing Breaking instead and keeping it. I casted Mind Funeral 26 time, and milled 11,4 cards average. But these results include the few times I got 18 & more cards with it. Most of the time it was only 9-10 cards, and I even got 4 when I needed 5 cards more in the graveyard to cast my Visions of Beyond.
So, 11 cards average fore 3 mana, is it worth it ? Maybe as a single ?
6) I made a few more games switching the Inquisitions for Serum Visions, and my scores are about the same. I think I tend to prefer Serum Visions as they help me keeping one landers or color lacking opening hands. They are also a better topdeck late game than Inquisition. I prefer trying to find really helpfull answers than trying to stall the game.
When I played Inquisition, I lost many games when my opponents had only 5-6 cards in their library. We were both topdecking and hoping for a solution. 2/3rd of the time, they found one before me.
7) I love Ghost Quartes against Infect and Tron (even if they are not that awesome with the latter), but I wonder if a basic Plains would not be better. I often wanted to cast a Path and could not because fetching would be lethal or would have taken me to Bolt range. The deck cannot afford playing 2 Ghost Quarters and 1 Plains.
8) I lost the count to a certain point, so it is not totally accurate, but I mulliganed almost 50% of the time... wich is pretty bad for a deck that tends to run out of threats quickly.
Sorry for this long post, but I wanted to share the results of my week of vacation and try to improve the deck with you guys. Sorry too for the mistakes, but I do not have the time to read again this loooong post correct it. i hope it is understandable.
Give me ideas so I can try them out before I sell the cards back !
Thanks for the detailed testing!!!
I question the use of white in this deck, as the only thing you are using it for is Path to Exile. I don't even know if it's better than something like Murderous Cut (given you're running Mesmeric Orb) or Go for the Throat, as they don't ramp your opponent into land. I also keep my deck to 21 land, and I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like at 20 instead.
I am TOTALLY feeling your frustration on Mind Funeral. Like, it should be good, but at 3 mana... I'd almost rather the 2 mana for Breaking and guaranteed 8 cards. In combo with a Glimpse or an Archive Trap, it should get your opponent to 20 cards in the library for Visions of Beyond activation. I worry a little bit about the top end, but there's been too many games where I cast Mind Funeral and have to hope they have less than 4 lands in their library.
I still have my hesitations about Jace's Phantasm. But a 5/5 flying blocker is never bad, my only hesitation is cutting good spells for creatures when we have so few creatures - it essentially makes our opponent have a lot of dead cards in their creature removal if we keep our creature count low. I keep 2 in my sideboard and bring them in against creature based decks.
Snapcaster is awesome, period. Our spells are all pretty low mana cost, Mesmeric Orb puts a ton of options in our graveyard, and we get to choose the best one when required. I've also used him as a flash-blocker to save my butt a few times. I roll 4.
Inquisition is awesome early and not so awesome late game, I agree. But I think Serum Visions isn't very good in the mainboard, there's no real silver bullet spell we are looking for usually.
I'm going to a shop tournament tonight and planning to play my mill deck, so we'll see what the meta holds! Will post a report tonight or tomorrow.
I just got back into Magic not too long ago and have been toying with my old 8whack deck while waiting for taxes to come back so I can buy a tier 1 deck. From my own testing and from some of what I've read here I think I'm bringing the following list to local for the forseeable future.
I was going to originally make this R/G for Atarka's Command and Destructive Revelry but I don't want to build Naya burn anymore so I was going to put the money into other lands but I don't think the deck loses a lot on the surface. I've found after playing tokens and No lords that I want instant impact over anything else. I hated playing Goblin Piledriver because it got killed and i got timewalked. Same reason for Goblin Chieftain not being included. I even hated chaining BTE into Mogg War Marshal all because it all meant nothing in the face of disruption (and the fact that I'm not a very smart player yet.) So I went more into the way of Devastating 8whack. I actually played Devastating Red back in Zendikar standard and forgot about the combo until I read through this thread several months back. I think this is the competitive edge of the deck. This puts the deck into turn 3 win territory even through minor disruption and is a good way to slam 10 damage on the board after wipes. Thus, this deck to me became a 3 land deck and I upped the land count to 22 even at one point but found that was waaaayy too much and I tested myself all the way down to 20. I found that 8 whack effects was not enough and is why I originally looked at Command, but then I remembered Signal Pest when I looked at this thread again and I think I've found what I was looking for. I haven't done any testing besides goldfishing and this week someone is lending me 8rack, but I will post a report for next week's modern tourney. Now, onto the deck explanation.
Guide is the best one drop for this deck besides the gobots version. Loyalist's text is relevant in almost all matchups and has won me many games. Mogg fanatic is a useful ability that a lot of people forget about when I'm playing against them. I've killed lots of Spellskite and infect creatures. Plus, the biggest reason I like him is because he's guaranteed damage, something I look for in this deck along with the haste creatures. Signal pest is awesome I think. I took out Vexing Devil for him. He does the same amount of damage as Devil does if I pair him on the bushwhack turn and he doesnt just hit the board and get sacrificed in the first turn or two. He also makes the turn 3 kills more often, love him in goldfish testing. He's also the second best start behind GG because he equals two turns of a loyalist damage if you play him first anyways. And pairs well with BTE if I don't have a Surgewhacker turn two. BTE and the bushwhackers are obvious, I want to see as many whacks as I can, they also let this deck win on two lands if I get multiples which is important.
Bolts are great for reasons, Grenade is another competitive advantage. They turn clunky or slow hands into lethal and I've won several games off the back of multiples of these. Summons is the best card for this deck to me personally and I don't see why others are only playing 1 or none. It allows turn 3 kills which is important especially on the draw and is 10 damage for two cards when the board is gone. It's beautiful, but I took it down to 3 because multiples are awful, Idk what to put in the fourth place though, any ideas?
Sideboard is something I'm not sure about. I think the infect matchup is decent because they don't interact and we are just as fast sometimes and I have 12 removal spells mainboard. But, there is a lot of infect at my place and they are the best players there so I figured I might as well make sure that I can destroy them by putting in the Shocks. Leyline is for the soul sisters guy that I always lose too. This deck in testing isn't that bad about mulliganing to 6 or even 5 sometimes. Multiple whackers or a summons is good enough, I have no problem mulliganing for leylines in this matchup. Plus it does Reality Hemorrhage job against Kor Firewalker when they show up. Shattering Spree was nice but it didn't win me games against affinity. I think smash is better for the damage and I'll just have to worry about one threat at a time. Plus Chalice of the Void is showing up more and this is strictly better against it. Genesis Chamber seems like an awesome idea from this thread. To me personally it looks like what would make me more confident about the deck. Pyroclasm is a soul killing card and this thing seems like the answer.
Notable cuts: Foundry Street Denizen I could just never get good value out of him. He could do good damage but he was a terrible topdeck and awful if not a first turn play for me. My deck is more RDW than goblins I suppose and this is probably why I didn't like him. Goblin Piledriver Hated it, any game you can slam this down and actually hit with it are games you were going to win anyways in my view. Good against merfolk but I don't see that matchup often. Chieftain is the same way. Mogg War Marshal was the last to go, he just didn't fit into the fast impact version of the deck so I cut him. Maybe the nolords version with piledrivers and marshals is the best version but I never had good experiences with it so I went for this instead. I never had luck with kuldotha red or gobots either.
Anyways sorry for the rant but figured It might help another to know the thinking behind everything. Any critiques or suggestions what should go in?
Thanks for the writeup!
How do you find BTE to be in the deck? You must be just letting that green mana go unused a lot of the time given that most of your cards are only red?
I run 1 Devastating Summons because, like you said, it's bad to have in multiples, though I could envision running 2 of them. You only really want to cast it as an alpha strike with a whacker to win, since otherwise you're stuck on no lands. I run a shell (it's actually B/R, I call it Whackdos) with Pact of the Titan and Ground Rift to go for the alpha strike, and I have Gitaxian Probes to up the storm count and check if they've got a combo breaker in hand. I also like Magus of the Moon, it gives you an edge if the match goes longer than you'd like.
I saw SaffronOlive post a similar brew a few weeks ago (caused a spike in Pact of the Titan unfortunately), I've been working on mine for 6 months or so now. Hopefully those cards give you some ideas for additions!
Hey MoBo! I also thought this was a good package to side in, but ended up making a completely separate deck that runs it and is completely centred around getting it in play and active. Once the combo is done, it makes no difference whether you cast that Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier in the game. I think jamming the combo in here doesn't really help us. There's also a dedicated thread on the combo if you search the forums, with some decent ideas in it!
My list that does run the combo uses a bunch of counter magic and disruption (IoK and Thoughtseize also both activate the combo, as well as Ghost Quarter) to slow their game down, and Muddle the Mixture to tutor for either combo piece. Aether Vials allow you a turn 3 kill if you have the nuts (T1 Vial, T2 Mindcrank, T3 Vial + Guildmage in response to them playing a spell), and Spellskite also protects both of your combo pieces from destruction.
The biggest enchantment issues I've had are Blood Moon and Leyline, and they really suck. Mesmeric Orb gets around both which is part of the reason I went to it. Kiora's dismissal is great and cheap, but like you said, just a temporary solution, and it's pretty narrow. Set Adrift does it way better (lets the Orb mill it off the top), and also handles things like Planswalkers that we have trouble with and should be playable T4 or T5 when those enchantments would come down anyway. I run 2 in my sideboard, but thinking about a third.
Here's my deck at the moment, and some thoughts on it.
I like fetchlands for the Crabs, but I think Marsh Flats and Flooded Strand might be a bit overkill, given how valuable our life total is. They're great when you have a crab, but he's often being taken out by creature removal, being one of the only creatures in the deck. I might leave 1 Flooded Strand in, but go to another swamp and island. Also not totally sold on the need for Sunken Ruins here - I'll probably keep one (vanity since it's an expedition land :P) but cut the other. Perhaps another Darkslick Shores, but could also try out another Shelldock Isle.
With Mesmeric Orb, you try to control the game and slow it down more to let the orb do it's job. If you're running Orb, Snapcaster becomes a lot better too.
I'm often underwhelmed with Mind Funeral for 3 mana - I might try subbing some or all of them out in favour of more disruption (More IoK? Spell Snare? More spot removal?) and seeing if Mesmeric Orb can handle the milling out duties on their own. Another thought for them is to replace them with Breaking // Entering, to reduce CMC more. I think I like Mind Funeral better than Breaking, but I haven't tried it yet.
I currently have what I would consider extra slots in the sideboard (probably don't need the third IoK or Surgical in there). I've thought of replacing them with more spot removal (perhaps even Murderous Cut, though it's not usually available early game which is when you'd want it). The other potential for me is Spellskite (should've thought of this earlier) as it totally hoses infect, and a 0/4 blocker for 2 is useful against a lot of other creature decks.
I recently switched it up to just a UB list after seeing some other people's lists on here. The only real reasons for white were Path to Exile and Hide // Seek (for me), and Ghostly Prison for some others. I think Victim of Night and Go for the Throat are sufficient fill-ins for Path, and I'm running Sadistic Sacrament in the board to hopefully handle Emrakul issues. The less painful manabase really helps, and it also allows me to run Ghost Quarters that I wasn't previously due to colour fixing issues.
To address Greg's points:
1) Aggro is a weak point. Ghostly Prison is best against infect, because their pump spells allow their creatures to get under an Ensnaring Bridge. Otherwise, I prefer Ensnaring bridge - if someone's got a Reality Smasher, they're probably happy to pay 2 for it to get through. With the low casting cost of most of our cards, we can drop our hand pretty low.
I've tried a couple things against standard aggro (burn, creatures) in addition to 2 maindeck Crypt Incursion. I have 2 Profane Memento in the sideboard, which helps out a lot. Often it tacks on a "Gain 3 life" to the end of a Glimpse the Unthinkable, and all your other mill cards. Combine that with a Mesmeric Orb and it happens pretty regularly. For 1 mana, it's as good or better play T1 than Hedron Crab. I'm also running 2 Darkness, which covers infect damage too.
2) I've never had a Surgical Extraction in my hand and been lacking a target I wanted to hit. It's super-powered in a mill deck because you see way more options in opponent's graveyard than most decks do. I mainboard 2 but would even consider going up to 3. Good decks usually run multiples of good cards, so removing all of one threat (Bolts? Goyfs? Trons? Ad Nauseams?) from a deck can be big.
3) I'm liking the Mesmeric Orb more lately, but you're right, it needs to be in a more controlling shell. Towards that end, I'm running 2 Inquisition of Kozilek to disrupt their hand, 2 spot removal (1 Victim of Night, 1 Go for the Throat), and 2 Damnation. Other perks about the Mesmeric Orbs are having way more targets for Snapcaster Mage (so I don't need to draw my Go for the Throat, as long as Orb mills it for me, it becomes accessible), and also the double-synergy with Set Adrift; gives me cards to delve to pay for it, puts it on top of opponent's library, and Orb mills it at the start of their next turn. But it's definitely a bit of a different play philosophy when you're running it.
4) Visions of Beyond is definitely a 4-of. It becomes Ancestral Recall by the time we want to cast it - I think every blue deck would run a playset of Ancestral Recall if it was allowed. Some have talked about the non-bo with Ensnaring Bridge, but the average CMC of this deck lends it to be able to deplete your hand pretty quick. Also, if having the bridge at a certain value is important to stop attacks... well, don't cast the Visions!
5) Archive Trap is a big hitter. I've actually ended up hard-casting it a few times to close the game out when it works. It's a 4-of because it hits so hard, and you almost always want it in your opener, and you're happy to see multiples usually. In UB it lacks path to activate it, but because the manabase is better, I slid in 2 Ghost Quarter which also turns it on.
6) Dredge is always a blowout, but 50% of the time it seems to be me blowing them out. Surgical Extraction is important here, and for G1, you gotta let them mill the first 1/3 of their deck before you drop your mill spells and clue them in to our strategy. If they see you trying to mill them out, they'll stop milling themselves and make your job harder. The key is to get em by surprise whenever possible for G1.
Dang, up to $18 from 8.5. Glad I've already got my playset.
I think it's better than Extirpate since you can cast it for free, but will Extirpate be next? The extraction effect is one of the keys to mill in my opinion.
I'm on a similar list but UB with no white, and on 21 lands (3 GQ)
So:
-4 Path
-2 Ghostly
-1 Verdict
-1 Mind Funeral
-1 Crypt Incursion
+4 Snapcaster
+1 Visions of Beyond
+2 Damnation
+1 Ensnaring Bridge
+2 Inquisition of Kozilek
I was super happy with the list. Although with lots of decks planning to run Push, I'm even debating going mostly creatureless; remove the crabs for the other 2 Mind Funerals and possibly some big creature killers, Victim of Night or Go for the Throat or Murderous Cut or Set Adrift or even Vapor Snag (which would be good synergy with Orbs), or maybe more Surgicals to extract the big creatures before they can come down. I predict we'll see a lot more Tasigur and Gurmag Angler causing us problems where Tarmogoyf did before.
A sidenote, I think Push will even further favour Dredge decks so we'll see them pick up. They don't care if their creature dies, it's coming back later anyway.
I'm also debating some number of Logic Knot in the board to help out in the end game.
Overall, super excited about the deck again!
Uncommon printing in a current set, I don't think it's going to be too ridiculously expensive. I think I'm going to pick up 2 playsets of them.
To me, this card makes Esper mill unnecessary. When I ran Esper, it was mostly for Path in the mainboard, and it also gave some sideboard options. But going to UB allows for less painful mana, as well as the inclusion of 3 Ghost Quarter in the main, which is also relevant in a lot of matchups. Between Ghost Quarters and fetches (I run 6) it's usually feasible to activate the revolt trigger.
Other shifts I made to accommodate push was removing Jace's Phantasm completely. I still haven't been sold on it, it's main use to me is as a blocker. Why block when I can Push? So stoked on it.
Yea, I run a sort-of Goblins deck I call Whackdos (this thread is the most relevant to my deck) that goes for full alpha strike mode - 8 whackers, pact of the titans, devastating summons, and ground rift. Also the regular cohort of guides and loyalists, and spike jester to enable my grenades too. Sometimes you just need that one extra mana to cast the grenade or bolt post combat.
Haven't had a chance to test it out with the SSGs yet, but I managed to get under an infect deck with a good draw the last time I played my buddy, so adding SSGs might make it faster. I guess at the cost of consistency/card advantage though.
You've sold me on SSG in being able to replace some of my lands with em. Hadn't considered that! Like you say, usually you just need that mana once to go for the alpha strike, and if it's on turn 2 instead of turn 3, even better.
I really like your thinking outside the box here! I've never contemplated adding green, I'm excited to hear your report on it.
I'd think you might even have a chance with the beatdown plan, having Goyfs and Phantasm in there. Side benefit that they will draw more heat away from the crabs for you to land that scapeshift or harrow combo with it.
I don't think I've ever seen an infect list running either of those Myr. The scariest infect artifact creature is Inkmoth Nexus. I think Smother is great, and I also run Victim of Night in my mainboard (1 Victim, 1 Go for Throat). I think Infinite Obliteration is way too slow to pay 3 mana that doesn't deal with a threat already on the board, Surgical is way better for our decks (plus infect doesn't care about our life total).
Re: Infect, I think it's just a brutal matchup. I played against a buddy who just converted his infect deck from legacy to modern last night. He went T1 fetch > Hierarch on the play and I hit him with an Archive Trap. T1 Inquisition of Kozilek to see 2x mutagenic growth, spell pierce, become immense and inkmoth. Took the mutagenic growth, then surgically extracted all his become immense (was in the graveyard due to my archive trap. Pretty savage play T1, but a Pendelhaven came down, and between Hierarch, Pendelhaven, and Inkmoth I was dead 2 turns later. I think a Jace's Phantasm is one of the best defences against something like that, a 3/4 Inkmoth nexus coming at you each turn (outside of any pump spells!) is savage.
Thanks for the detailed testing!!!
I question the use of white in this deck, as the only thing you are using it for is Path to Exile. I don't even know if it's better than something like Murderous Cut (given you're running Mesmeric Orb) or Go for the Throat, as they don't ramp your opponent into land. I also keep my deck to 21 land, and I wouldn't mind seeing what it's like at 20 instead.
I am TOTALLY feeling your frustration on Mind Funeral. Like, it should be good, but at 3 mana... I'd almost rather the 2 mana for Breaking and guaranteed 8 cards. In combo with a Glimpse or an Archive Trap, it should get your opponent to 20 cards in the library for Visions of Beyond activation. I worry a little bit about the top end, but there's been too many games where I cast Mind Funeral and have to hope they have less than 4 lands in their library.
I still have my hesitations about Jace's Phantasm. But a 5/5 flying blocker is never bad, my only hesitation is cutting good spells for creatures when we have so few creatures - it essentially makes our opponent have a lot of dead cards in their creature removal if we keep our creature count low. I keep 2 in my sideboard and bring them in against creature based decks.
Snapcaster is awesome, period. Our spells are all pretty low mana cost, Mesmeric Orb puts a ton of options in our graveyard, and we get to choose the best one when required. I've also used him as a flash-blocker to save my butt a few times. I roll 4.
Inquisition is awesome early and not so awesome late game, I agree. But I think Serum Visions isn't very good in the mainboard, there's no real silver bullet spell we are looking for usually.
I'm going to a shop tournament tonight and planning to play my mill deck, so we'll see what the meta holds! Will post a report tonight or tomorrow.
Thanks for the writeup!
How do you find BTE to be in the deck? You must be just letting that green mana go unused a lot of the time given that most of your cards are only red?
I run 1 Devastating Summons because, like you said, it's bad to have in multiples, though I could envision running 2 of them. You only really want to cast it as an alpha strike with a whacker to win, since otherwise you're stuck on no lands. I run a shell (it's actually B/R, I call it Whackdos) with Pact of the Titan and Ground Rift to go for the alpha strike, and I have Gitaxian Probes to up the storm count and check if they've got a combo breaker in hand. I also like Magus of the Moon, it gives you an edge if the match goes longer than you'd like.
I saw SaffronOlive post a similar brew a few weeks ago (caused a spike in Pact of the Titan unfortunately), I've been working on mine for 6 months or so now. Hopefully those cards give you some ideas for additions!
Hey MoBo! I also thought this was a good package to side in, but ended up making a completely separate deck that runs it and is completely centred around getting it in play and active. Once the combo is done, it makes no difference whether you cast that Archive Trap or Glimpse the Unthinkable earlier in the game. I think jamming the combo in here doesn't really help us. There's also a dedicated thread on the combo if you search the forums, with some decent ideas in it!
My list that does run the combo uses a bunch of counter magic and disruption (IoK and Thoughtseize also both activate the combo, as well as Ghost Quarter) to slow their game down, and Muddle the Mixture to tutor for either combo piece. Aether Vials allow you a turn 3 kill if you have the nuts (T1 Vial, T2 Mindcrank, T3 Vial + Guildmage in response to them playing a spell), and Spellskite also protects both of your combo pieces from destruction.
2 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
1 Shelldock Isle
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Watery Grave
2 Sunken Ruins
2 Darkslick Shores
1 Oboro, Palace in the Clouds
3 Island
1 Swamp
4 Glimpse the Unthinkable
4 Visions of Beyond
4 Mind Funeral
2 Crypt Incursion
1 Go for the Throat
1 Victim of Night
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Damnation
4 Snapcaster Mage
1 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Mesmeric Orb
Here's my deck at the moment, and some thoughts on it.
I like fetchlands for the Crabs, but I think Marsh Flats and Flooded Strand might be a bit overkill, given how valuable our life total is. They're great when you have a crab, but he's often being taken out by creature removal, being one of the only creatures in the deck. I might leave 1 Flooded Strand in, but go to another swamp and island. Also not totally sold on the need for Sunken Ruins here - I'll probably keep one (vanity since it's an expedition land :P) but cut the other. Perhaps another Darkslick Shores, but could also try out another Shelldock Isle.
With Mesmeric Orb, you try to control the game and slow it down more to let the orb do it's job. If you're running Orb, Snapcaster becomes a lot better too.
I'm often underwhelmed with Mind Funeral for 3 mana - I might try subbing some or all of them out in favour of more disruption (More IoK? Spell Snare? More spot removal?) and seeing if Mesmeric Orb can handle the milling out duties on their own. Another thought for them is to replace them with Breaking // Entering, to reduce CMC more. I think I like Mind Funeral better than Breaking, but I haven't tried it yet.
I currently have what I would consider extra slots in the sideboard (probably don't need the third IoK or Surgical in there). I've thought of replacing them with more spot removal (perhaps even Murderous Cut, though it's not usually available early game which is when you'd want it). The other potential for me is Spellskite (should've thought of this earlier) as it totally hoses infect, and a 0/4 blocker for 2 is useful against a lot of other creature decks.
I recently switched it up to just a UB list after seeing some other people's lists on here. The only real reasons for white were Path to Exile and Hide // Seek (for me), and Ghostly Prison for some others. I think Victim of Night and Go for the Throat are sufficient fill-ins for Path, and I'm running Sadistic Sacrament in the board to hopefully handle Emrakul issues. The less painful manabase really helps, and it also allows me to run Ghost Quarters that I wasn't previously due to colour fixing issues.
To address Greg's points:
1) Aggro is a weak point. Ghostly Prison is best against infect, because their pump spells allow their creatures to get under an Ensnaring Bridge. Otherwise, I prefer Ensnaring bridge - if someone's got a Reality Smasher, they're probably happy to pay 2 for it to get through. With the low casting cost of most of our cards, we can drop our hand pretty low.
I've tried a couple things against standard aggro (burn, creatures) in addition to 2 maindeck Crypt Incursion. I have 2 Profane Memento in the sideboard, which helps out a lot. Often it tacks on a "Gain 3 life" to the end of a Glimpse the Unthinkable, and all your other mill cards. Combine that with a Mesmeric Orb and it happens pretty regularly. For 1 mana, it's as good or better play T1 than Hedron Crab. I'm also running 2 Darkness, which covers infect damage too.
2) I've never had a Surgical Extraction in my hand and been lacking a target I wanted to hit. It's super-powered in a mill deck because you see way more options in opponent's graveyard than most decks do. I mainboard 2 but would even consider going up to 3. Good decks usually run multiples of good cards, so removing all of one threat (Bolts? Goyfs? Trons? Ad Nauseams?) from a deck can be big.
3) I'm liking the Mesmeric Orb more lately, but you're right, it needs to be in a more controlling shell. Towards that end, I'm running 2 Inquisition of Kozilek to disrupt their hand, 2 spot removal (1 Victim of Night, 1 Go for the Throat), and 2 Damnation. Other perks about the Mesmeric Orbs are having way more targets for Snapcaster Mage (so I don't need to draw my Go for the Throat, as long as Orb mills it for me, it becomes accessible), and also the double-synergy with Set Adrift; gives me cards to delve to pay for it, puts it on top of opponent's library, and Orb mills it at the start of their next turn. But it's definitely a bit of a different play philosophy when you're running it.
4) Visions of Beyond is definitely a 4-of. It becomes Ancestral Recall by the time we want to cast it - I think every blue deck would run a playset of Ancestral Recall if it was allowed. Some have talked about the non-bo with Ensnaring Bridge, but the average CMC of this deck lends it to be able to deplete your hand pretty quick. Also, if having the bridge at a certain value is important to stop attacks... well, don't cast the Visions!
5) Archive Trap is a big hitter. I've actually ended up hard-casting it a few times to close the game out when it works. It's a 4-of because it hits so hard, and you almost always want it in your opener, and you're happy to see multiples usually. In UB it lacks path to activate it, but because the manabase is better, I slid in 2 Ghost Quarter which also turns it on.
6) Dredge is always a blowout, but 50% of the time it seems to be me blowing them out. Surgical Extraction is important here, and for G1, you gotta let them mill the first 1/3 of their deck before you drop your mill spells and clue them in to our strategy. If they see you trying to mill them out, they'll stop milling themselves and make your job harder. The key is to get em by surprise whenever possible for G1.