FOOD CHAIN PLUS ONE SO YOU ALWAYS GET AN EXTRA MANA SO YOU DO THAT PLAY THEM FROM EXILE THEN FOOD CHAIN AGAIN GET AN EXTRA MANA FOR FOREVER CUZ U CAN CAST THEM FROM EXILE THEN AFTER THAT U HAVE INFINITE MANA THEN MAELSTROM CASCADE SAC HIM AND CAST OVER AND OVER CUZ OF INFINITE MANA PLAYING YOUR DECK
I understand how it works. I'm just saying that if you draw or cascade into your 3/3 before Food Chain you will be severely disappointed every time. This combo has already existed (and not played) with Misthollow Griffin, and even a slightly better version of the card will not make me play that combo. This card is not proactive, and the worst-case-scenario is horrendous. The Griffin could at least fly and block a Voltron general.
You make fair points, but let me draw a parallel.
If you're playing lab man combo, what's your thought process when you draw it in your opening hand? Or turn 5 before you're ready to go off? Me, I hate that, because its vulnerable in my hand. And I want to get Lab Man off Enter the Infinite or something similar.
In this parallel, lab man is Griffin. No, I don't necessarily want it on my hand. No, I don't want to cascade into it unless I already have Food Chain. But, Griffin has the benefit of being tutored to exile with Manipulate Fate or a similar spell. You have half your win condition untouchable in exile; that's spectacular.
Then when you're READY, you cast wanderer. Two out of the 3 cards you need to win the game are safe in exile... Why NOT run them?
I mean, yes, you need another card to combo off...but that card/cards are in your deck, and you'll be cascading through your entire deck, casting any/all of your spells. Food Chain + Eternal Scourge means infinite Wanderers means you can win via any number of cards in your deck - Purphoros, Warstorm Surge, Kiki kill, whatever. How is Eternal Scourge NOT an automatic windmill slam into the deck?
I'm personally very excited for Eldrazi Evolution. I think it's going to be a great card for the deck. My list is just a little bit different than Razz's list (maybe 80% same?), so I'm running a lot of dorks and utility guys like Mindslicer as well...let me tell you how much I am dying to cast Eldrazi Evolution, sac Mindslicer, find Devourer, everybody discards their hands, win. Very, very excited for that.
I too, find it difficult to drop below I think 34 land, right now. I run the artifact ramp as well, and I know that we can afford to aggressively mulligan, but 30 just seems to be pressing your luck...that's crazy, man.
On a side note, had a fun but ultimately frustrating game on Friday night: My hand is probably the best it's ever been in my entire history of playing the deck. Fetchland, Forest, Entomb, Exhume, Mana Crypt, Abrupt Decay. A turn 2 Void Winnower causes the UR player to concede on the spot because he kept a 2 land hand with no answers. The Roon player has to play 1 land per turn into Roon because Winnower shut off all his ramp, but dies before he can do too much...and my third opponent is playing Kologhan. =/ Dash it in, hit me for 5. Fervor, hardcast Kologhan, hit me for 5, Fury of the Hoard, hit me for another 5. The turn before I kill him with Winnower, he drops Loxodon Warhammer, equips, kills me. -sigh-
After that game, I really, really missed It That Betrays in my list....I still think Void Winnower is ultimately better because of it's immediate impact on the board, but I don't know what can possibly feel better than a turn two It That Betrays stealing everybody's lands and locking them out of the game.
Razz, I'd like to hear more about Ohran Viper. I occasionally pass it in my binder and remember how good it was in that Standard format, but not gonna lie, it seems particularly lackluster in cEDH. I'd assume it's a relatively good rattlesnake card, no pun intended, but that would feel super lackluster attacking with it, especially when I know it will die in the combat; the vast majority of the time, I don't particularly care what creatures my opponents have, and anything they have that I really want gone they're not going to block with, anyway. So I'd like to hear your analysis of the card and what makes it so good that we'll all be playing it in 6 months
I can write a very detailed, card-data/interaction based post as to the reason why I feel Tooth and Nail should be banned. I can write a long, similar post as to why I see Iona's need to be banned in more of a grey area, but still leaning towards the idea she not be a card allowed to be played. But when it is apparent that I am just going to be ignored, it's not something that gives me a warm and fuzzy feeling.
Thank you, that's exactly how I feel. I play "tournament," so I therefore have no voice, and any issues I feel should be addressed are met with "play your own format." Super...
I'm not Sheldon, but a very simple answer here is: You lose casual players who don't see certain cards as broken and actively enjoy playing with them if you ban too many of them. As has been alluded to before, a too large banlist (overregulation) can push away people from a format. (See Prismatic) By keeping the main banlist as a simple guideline to work with, you give individual groups the power to work within them while giving people without a set group a guideline of what they can reasonably expect. Only when cards give trouble just about everywhere do they start seeing banlist consideration.
You have to ask yourself: How big is that subset of competitive players? Is someone with a few infinites and tutors in their deck competitive/cutthroat?
Honestly, I would personally suggest this to everyone who is into Competitive EDH and really hates the banlist as it is managed right now: Make your spinoff. Take the commander rules, make a subforum for your cause, get other competitive players to join and make a new banlist together. See if you can work something out which will make the majority happy. Try it. It's not easy.
I don't think a schism is going to happen, for exactly the reasons you mentioned - it's difficult, and honestly for as unhappy as a lot of people are with the RC, the majority of the banlist seems to make most people happy (myself included).
I agree with over-regulation. Nobody wants that. The shorter a banlist, the better. But I don't think the RC loses out on casual players - and the format as a whole does not suffer - by taking cEDH just a BIT more into account. There are absolutely cards that competitive players feel should be banned because they absolutely break the game. Some of those cards can be looked at for banning because the more casual players lose very little by their banning. Again, Tooth and Nail. How does is the player negatively affected by something of that power level being banned, and is that negative effect lesser than or greater than the negative effect of me tutoring for Mike n' Trike to kill the table?
Again, I'm NOT saying to build some new banlist or alter the one we have for a competitive slant; I'm just saying, the RC loses nothing by acknowledging that competitive EDH is a thing and some cards can be utterly abused if we're allowed. I think you'd find if you took cEDH into account just...20% more, you'd only find 1-2 cards that really need to be banned, and probably nothing that needs to be taken off.
The other issue is the whole mentality of "well, whatever works with your playgroup." That's just an impossibility, to be frank. Like it or not, the format is sanctioned now, which means a stricter sense of rules is important. I'm all for house rules and the like as well, but those do me zero good when I go to a GP to pick up some side games. If my play group has banned Necro but yours hasn't, I'm going to lose that game.
It really comes down to inclusivity. How much do you lose by forcing a subset, however small you think it may be, to play "your" format "your" way? How much do you gain by opening the door just a crack and listening to that subset 10% more?
No one is debating the right of tournament Commander (or competitive players) to exist. We're happy that you've found a niche you enjoy and hope it continues to meet your needs. We're just telling you that balancing the banned list for tournament play is not part of our math.
I guess my response to that would be, what do you lose?
What do you lose by being more inclusive of cEDH concerns? I'm not talking about building a banlist with cEDH in mind, but just occasionally looking at what those players think is overpowered from a competitive standpoint. Tooth and Nail is a perfect example: it can absolutely be played fair, but...come on. Nobody does that. I feel like I'm being demonized and marginalized because I use Tooth and Nail to (god forbid apparently) search out Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts. I guess I just don't understand why, if its a social format at its core, why are distinctly competitive and cards that are frankly impossible to play fair, not banned? Coalition Victory is banned but Tooth and Nail isn't because....what, feels? They both say "you win," so I'm not sure what the difference between them is - and more importantly, what do casual players lose by NOT having that card? They lose a potentially fun interaction, but they gain the ability to not get one-shot out of the game (and therefore everybody has more fun).
The ban list loses nothing by being a bit more inclusive of ALL the players who have latched onto EDH. Its great you've got your vision, but vision and reality sometimes differ and by forcing EDH into your little box, you're actively pissing off a sizable chunk of players. And nobody is saying the banlist is ***** and needs to be totally revamped....we just want our voices to mean a bit more when it comes to the discussion. Because right now, no matter how nicely you try and phrase it, all I hear from every post is "that's nice, now screw off."
I just want my opinion to matter a little more, not be immediately marginalized because I'm apparently not your target audience.
The first thing the naysayers commented was, "does Lorescale Coatl see Legacy play?" as if that answered the question right then and there. But there are a lot of differences that honestly make me think of Goyf with this guy.
1) the casting cost being 2U means it fits into lots of decks that could play it. BUG, RUG, Delver, whatever. It's easily splashed, much like goyf can just be thrown into virtually any deck running green.
2) it rewards you for playing cards that, as a legacy blue player, you are already running. You don't have to add anything to make Skulker better, because you're already running Brainstorm and probably other draw as well (Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, etc). In addition it counts your normal draws.
3) It replaces itself when it dies (short of Swords/Path). That's a big deal, because it means if you play it on turn 3 with no draw spells to immediately pump it, that's the only time your opponent can kill it and you gain absolutely zero value. If you play it later with the potential to draw in response to removal, you will at least get 1+ tokens out of the deal. And delver/Pyromancer builds have shown that tokens can smash face in legacy. Especially islandwalking tokens.
The easy casting cost, the value when it dies, and the "Brainstorm, draw for turn, swing for 5?" just screams playable to me. This is not Lorescale Coatl, it's much better. I honestly really want to try him out in a UR Pyromancer build.
The trick with her so far in my testing has been, what "big spells" do you play? So far my best plays have been Time Warp effects; anything that gets me additional turns or puts me ahead in some way.
Spot removal and taking extra turns, so far, is all I've got. I WANT to abuse her by putting in things like Apocalypse and Jokulhaups, but doing so kills your ability to re-cast her which is obviously where her strength lies.. =/ Additionally, I want to cast things like Monomania or Wit's End or Sorin's Vengeance, but those target single players, while Jeleva works best in a multiplayer game, exiling many player's spells.
Lastly, I want to run things that help her deal damage or at least move my own game forward, but if you don't run a critical mass of spells you end up blanking on her ETB ability; so far I average one spell on her first casting, 2-3 on her second, and usually by her third it's about game over; but I feel like I'm not really doing much to the field itself. It totally depends on what my opponent has.
Anyone have any ideas on how to tighten it down a bit?
I had to use Gatherer to remember some of their names, but these are what I'm currently thinking of abusing the hell out of
There aren't a lot of critters I want to abuse with Jeleva, but the ones I do are mostly Nucklavee and Galvanoth; I want to be able to re-cast, or cast for free, my big spells, ideally leaving my mana free to cast/recast Jeleva as often as possible. I also want to be able to use my opponent's spells against him; that way I not only get my own spells to abuse, but my opponent's can help me dip into other color and spells I can't run in my own list. To that effect, Blatant Thievery, Bribery, Mind's Desire, Spelltwine and Knowledge Exploitation all seem like entertaining cards to use.
The only thing I'm worried about is a real win condition. do I just mess with my opponent so much that I get enough damage through with whatever critters I can get out? Or is there a stupid combo I'm forgetting about that will let me win the game without dealing 21 general damage...
Exactly. My Sun Quan, Lord of Wu does have a healthy number of counterspells, but those are surgical tools, not "Counter Everything so you can't play".
A deck can be built in any way, and can have ANY number of infinite combos and unfair things... the issue comes in with how you play it.
EDH is interesting in this way because not only should you be trying to win, you should be trying to craft an interesting gameplay experience for everyone involved.
Of course, this is why I typically choose unique generals that aren't always the strictly most powerful choice. The current decks I have together are Zhang Fei, Fierce Warrior (w/Guan Yu and Lui Bei), Sun Quan, Xiahou Dun, Diaochan (w/Lu Bu), Lady Zhurong, and Karn.
With them, I'm actually trying to work to keep them in their section of the color pie unless an effect is necessary to not be left behind on the table- monocolor decks should play differently from each other.
Tournament Magic- Legacy, Modern, Standard- is pretty much like a Nascar race- all the decks that see heavy play are mostly equivalent, and it's small differences and the performance on that day that lead to who takes home the prize.
Multiplayer EDH is like a weekend cruise- people are trotting out their low riders, their blinged out rims, hopping up on their hydraulics, blasting music and moving everything along at a chill pace. Don't be the guy who turns that cruise into a drag race that needs to be won by bashing everyone into the ditch. Nobody wants that guy to be around.
This is how I play. I enjoy playing with otherwise lack-luster commanders because hey, they're in my binder, and otherwise they'll just sit there gathering dust for the next decade. So I play a mono black with Shaku, the Endbringer as my general, and its fun. It's not my 1v1 competitive deck, but it's one I enjoy playing and it gives variance to my playgroup, so I like it.
I myself have 5-6 decks at any given time, so I try to have a variety of different styles. I can play fun, interactive and unusual decks, I can play 1v1 competitive lists (where the prize is often a dual land or something similar, yeah, I'm there to make you cry and take home the trophy), I can play big 5-6 player multiplayer Planechase events...whatever. I like to be able to switch it up.
In terms of what cards or strategies piss me off....non-interactive strategies, I guess? Or "mass slow down" cards like Nether Void, Smokestack, mass land destruction. In 1v1 I understand that those strategies are fair, and they're not nearly as infuriating; in a big multiplayer game, where a well timed Armageddon or Boom//Bust can slow the next 10 turns to a complete crawl? You're an *******. Infinite combos don't get me too much, because to me it still takes a fair amount of work to assemble any infinite combo, and if you get me before I can interrupt you or kill you flat out, then you probably deserve to win, especially seeing as how your infinite combo is probably 3-5 cards(!).
So yeah, in general, I'd have to say stax/mass counterspells are most likely to make me walk away. A buddy of mine has a mono blue deck that's basically Morphing/Opposition/Stax/Counters, and I refuse to play that deck unless we're in a tournament. It's beyond infuriating.
hey man i like the idea of Seance but how do you deal against aggro decks like uw aggro, RDW or even UWR midrange that puts alot of pressure really fast.. it seems like Seance takes alot of slots even if it helps later in the game by exiling a thragtusk but at that moment is T4 and your dead against pretty much any aggro deck with a good hand.
the deck lacks of removal, so whats your plan against it??
and btw what do you think about Thundermaw Hellkite with haste it can attack right away or even you can do it to tap all of their flyers in hes turn if you need it against lets say a miracle or a swarm of resto angels
The early game rush is mitigated by cards like Centaur Healer; if aggro (especially aggro that can kill you by turn 4) is prevalent in your meta, then you need to run more Healer to compensate for that. My previous versions were running Restoration Angel as well, which would often just prove too much for aggro to handle - the turn 3 Healer into a turn 4 Restoration Angel, blink, double block was just too much for them. Now that super quick aggro is on the fall, that's not so much a problem anymore.
Generally speaking, your early plays are drawing/filtering as much as possible, hit a turn 3 Healer, and a turn 4 reanimation or Seance to start reanimating multiple dudes. Yes, it's a slower start, but depending on your meta that doesn't matter. And it's not like you're not doing anything - you're filtering cards, and making sure your mid/late game is better. If you run Lingering Souls, you play those out and chumps to buy you time. In my opinion, turns 4/5 are really when this deck start to hit hard. Everything else is just surviving.
On the Hellkite - I love him in certain builds, but it really depends on your build. I don't believe he fits in a Frites list, but I DO think he belongs in a Seance list, if that makes sense. If you ran Seance in a R/W or R/W/G list, then I'd say yes, obviously you run Hellkite. As it is, we're more Junk colors with a splash for red, and that's not the best environment for Hellkite. Just my opinion, though; test it out. If he smashes face, more power to you.
As someone who has played Seance since right before R2R was released, I can tell you that the card is spectacular.
Yes, Seance and Trostani don't work together. That's one card, and Trostani's value is elsewhere. If anything Seance is BETTER than unburial rites, because it's every turn. You can't attack with the token, but you can certainly get value out of it's ETB effects; and if it's something like a Thragtusk, it leaves a body behind. Seance-ing a Thragtusk on my opp's turn, blocking their dude, gaining 5 and getting a 3/3 to attack next turn has absolutely won me games. Seance-ing back a Restoration Angel, blinking a Thragtusk, has won me games. Seance-ing back a Disciple of Bolas, saccing Thragtusk, has won me games.
Think outside the box.
My latest version of Seance (because I actually run a Seance list, and have only recently changed it out to make it a little more "Frites-like"), gets solid card selection and draw with the usual Looting, Grisly Salvage, etc; which then leads to late game advantage when Seance hits the field and the majority of my dudes start pulling double duty. Reanimate when you can, obviously, but you're also casting creatures as well: Seancing an Angel of Serenity on their turn to exile three dudes, swing with your team, then bounce their dudes to their hand? Seems Good. Or Seance the angel during their turn, bounce two threats and one dude for you, then recast it during your turn? I don't know about you guys, but I love getting double or even triple value out of my cards.
Trostani in play makes Seance broken - I have won numerous games by populating Thragtusk tokens to a ridiculous degree, gaining 8 life every time Trostani populates..that's, in a word, awesome. Trostani is certainly not required to make Seance work, but it's certainly beyond broken when she does.
For reference, I've been top 4ing FNM with this list every week, and I got 16th at States with a 5 color version. I think adding in Unburial Rites will make it even stronger, but hey, if you don't want to run Seance, by all means. Yes, it gets O-Ringed and D-sphere'd, but it's just ADDED value, it's not NECESSARY value. The idea is to create an overwhelming mass of dudes from hand and dudes from graveyard. Seance, Unburial Rites and your hand give you an overwhelming advantage.
But by all means, don't play it if you think it's too weak.....
This is the latest direction I've taken mine as well. Frites can just explode with card selection, and dumping dudes into the yard makes Seance that much better.
Have you considered Trostani, maybe as 1-of? It may gain MUCH more life, that I feel may be necessary. Other options I am thinking about: if Jund gets really prevalent, Loxodon Smiter is much resilient to their discard (some also carry Lili) and better fast blocker than Centaur. Also Deathrite Shaman may be a fine tool off the bench against evil plays like Snapcaster'd entreats, reanimated Angels of Serenity, or recurring zombies especially the life-draining Messenger.
My team's original build ran three Trostani; when we took the deck to 4 and 5 colors, we cut her because of the intense mana requirements. Two of the team have since cut back to 3 colors again and both run Trostani - she's awesome at what she does, but I still dislike her; she's a naturally defensive card, and lifegain does not win you the game. I saw life totals in the 800s (850-some, if I recall), but the game goes super long and you may not even win, just draw. To me, the deck needs something more aggressive. Vorapede has been one answer that works extremely well - that and Disciple together are a tough duo.
Loxodon Smiter is also a possibility, except he does nothing for the overall plan of the deck. When he dies, his only benefit to Seance is as a blocker. And while Seance is just a part of the deck and not the lynchpin, I feel that running dudes that don't synergize with it is a mistake. Yes, Smiter is good against a Rakdos Return, and Liliana. But that's about it, and Rakdos' Return is really only brought in game 2 with Jund. Additionally, we have no turn 1 ramp, so Smiter is just a turn 3 beater.
Shaman is a possibility, though I haven't tested it yet. Being able to things can make a stalemate into a slow grind, which does occasionally happen with this version of the deck.
Related, here's my updated list. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the archetype anymore, but I've had nothing but success with what I'm playing. All the excitement is in Jund midrange and UWx control, but my team's list beats both of those pretty easily. For this week, we're seeing what happens if we go back down to 4 colors and "aggro" the list a little bit more:
Changes are mostly just cutting blue. I was going to try Think Twice instead of the Forbidden Alchemy I've been running, but cutting blue entirely makes the mana much smoother. I haven't tried this list yet, it's all theoretical still.
Faithless Looting: Obviously Frites runs it to great effect, and if I was running Alchemy without a problem then the discard from Looting shouldn't be that big of a deal. Also, because it's cheaper, I can fit it more on-curve with what I'm playing: there were lots of times I would wait to Alchemy until later in the game, simply because I was too busy playing out threats to actually want to cast Alchemy. Looting should let me do that faster, giving me better options at the expense of ditching cards out of hand. That will be a problem if/when my hand gets low, which is why I'm also including Garruk, PH. Garruk, Primal Hunter: I don't really need to explain why Garruk is awesome. He's one of the best walkers against UWx control, and he makes up for the loss of card draw that occurs by cutting Disciple of Bolas entirely. He doesn't shoot opposing creatures, though; and he's another heavy drop, so I felt like I needed to compensate with... Abrupt Decay: I was running Oblivion Ring to deal with problem permanents, but you know what ends up happening in like 90% of my games? I'm O-Ringing an O-Ring (or Detention Sphere) to get my dudes back. And that's annoying as hell. If I'm going to do that, I might as well run Decay, which permanently deals with problems, is uncounterable, instant speed, etc etc. Decay does not hit Walkers the way O-Ring does though; I feel like that will be okay though, because the overall list is taking on a more aggro feel to it. Also, I have Hellkite. Thundermaw Hellkite: I'm taking a page out of Jund's book for this one. Hellkite is awesome, and is arguably my second favorite creature in standard right now. Being able to tap down angel tokens and swing into a Jace that UWx thought was protected, that's a good play. The double-red may be an issue, but we'll test it out and see how it goes. I think having a heavier-hitting, aggro version will do well. Barter in Blood: I will probably miss Supreme Verdict. Uncounterable and hits everything in play, no questions asked. Barter In Blood seems like the best alternative, and if they're forced to block a lot of my guys they should hopefully be low on creatures anyway. The downside is, of course, sometimes two guys isn't enough, and it probably won't save my ass if I'm starting to lose. But it's easier on the mana base and it still answers Geist of St. Traft, as well as other heavy hitters that something like Rolling Tremblor wouldn't. Selesyna Keyrune: Another nod to Jund. May end up being taken out, because as a 1x how vital can it be (plus, I think I'm at 61 cards)? I feel like having one more ramp spell, that survives a Verdict, Barter in Blood, and sorcery speed removal, is a really good thing. It's not a 3/1 first striker, but the G/W mana is more important for the deck and 3/3 still packs a hit. Being able to keep pressure on the UWx player, even after a Verdict or a Terminus, can really win you the game.
Opinions are always welcome. I feel like I'm the only one still really reading this thread and trying new ideas.
I'm sad that there's not a lot of interest in this build. I've been having CRAZY good success with it, and it only gets better with every update. For reference, here's my current list:
I decided to try out the Guildmage, which has had a net positive result. As other posters have said, being able to populate for 4 mana is just stupid; any game I start populating Thragtusks, I win. The card advantage is just too much at that point. Additionally, in the later turns (with 8+ mana), it just gets downright stupid. Guildmage also helps the early game, by giving me multiple things to do on turn 2. I can ramp if I have it, but I can also keep hands with a turn 2 Guildmage to help stall out the aggro rush. I have yet to use his 4WG ability (putting a centaur into play), but the ability to do so shouldn't be overlooked...
Angel of Serenity needs to be main, in every list. She is so good. She's absolutely game ending, even if removed. I'm probably going to up her to for this week's tournament, because I love seeing her. One has been effective, though, because of Garruk being maindeck.
Garruk was a card I kept siding in for almost all my games - he's good against control, he's good against Jund, and he's good against the WG aggro lists; and in all of those except control, it's spectacular to shoot one of their dudes, flip Garruk, then sacrifice a thragtusk to search out a Zealous Conscripts, play it, attack....I've won numerous games off the Garruk + Conscripts synergy (swinging for 15 damage in one turn seems good).
I've cut Disciple to a 1x solely because I don't know what else to cut. Disciple is a good card, but I never, ever liked seeing it in my opening hand, and it really only seemed necessary if I was falling behind. But honestly, as long as Seance lands - and sticks - I never really fall behind.
Slayer of the Wicked out of the board is the stone cold nuts. I didn't think it would be that impressive, but really...it kills everything Jund plays short of Thragtusk and Rakdos Keyrune. It kills everything Rakdos Aggro/Zombies plays; it kills Olivia, Vampire Nighthawk, Huntmaster, etc. etc. And it blocks like a champ. I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal, but so far I've been loving it out of the board.
Tragic Slip is a new addition I'll be trying this week. I really, REALLY miss having instant-speed removal, and most of my losses come from not being able to use spare mana at the end of my opponent's turn; or, for instance, killing their Thragtusk, then still having to deal with the Beast token left behind. If I could attack with my dudes, kill their Thragtusk, then Slip the beast token, I think that would have stolen some games for me.
Seriously though, give it a try. I've been having great success with it so far.
You make fair points, but let me draw a parallel.
If you're playing lab man combo, what's your thought process when you draw it in your opening hand? Or turn 5 before you're ready to go off? Me, I hate that, because its vulnerable in my hand. And I want to get Lab Man off Enter the Infinite or something similar.
In this parallel, lab man is Griffin. No, I don't necessarily want it on my hand. No, I don't want to cascade into it unless I already have Food Chain. But, Griffin has the benefit of being tutored to exile with Manipulate Fate or a similar spell. You have half your win condition untouchable in exile; that's spectacular.
Then when you're READY, you cast wanderer. Two out of the 3 cards you need to win the game are safe in exile... Why NOT run them?
What?
I mean, yes, you need another card to combo off...but that card/cards are in your deck, and you'll be cascading through your entire deck, casting any/all of your spells. Food Chain + Eternal Scourge means infinite Wanderers means you can win via any number of cards in your deck - Purphoros, Warstorm Surge, Kiki kill, whatever. How is Eternal Scourge NOT an automatic windmill slam into the deck?
I too, find it difficult to drop below I think 34 land, right now. I run the artifact ramp as well, and I know that we can afford to aggressively mulligan, but 30 just seems to be pressing your luck...that's crazy, man.
On a side note, had a fun but ultimately frustrating game on Friday night: My hand is probably the best it's ever been in my entire history of playing the deck. Fetchland, Forest, Entomb, Exhume, Mana Crypt, Abrupt Decay. A turn 2 Void Winnower causes the UR player to concede on the spot because he kept a 2 land hand with no answers. The Roon player has to play 1 land per turn into Roon because Winnower shut off all his ramp, but dies before he can do too much...and my third opponent is playing Kologhan. =/ Dash it in, hit me for 5. Fervor, hardcast Kologhan, hit me for 5, Fury of the Hoard, hit me for another 5. The turn before I kill him with Winnower, he drops Loxodon Warhammer, equips, kills me. -sigh-
After that game, I really, really missed It That Betrays in my list....I still think Void Winnower is ultimately better because of it's immediate impact on the board, but I don't know what can possibly feel better than a turn two It That Betrays stealing everybody's lands and locking them out of the game.
Razz, I'd like to hear more about Ohran Viper. I occasionally pass it in my binder and remember how good it was in that Standard format, but not gonna lie, it seems particularly lackluster in cEDH. I'd assume it's a relatively good rattlesnake card, no pun intended, but that would feel super lackluster attacking with it, especially when I know it will die in the combat; the vast majority of the time, I don't particularly care what creatures my opponents have, and anything they have that I really want gone they're not going to block with, anyway. So I'd like to hear your analysis of the card and what makes it so good that we'll all be playing it in 6 months
Thank you, that's exactly how I feel. I play "tournament," so I therefore have no voice, and any issues I feel should be addressed are met with "play your own format." Super...
I don't think a schism is going to happen, for exactly the reasons you mentioned - it's difficult, and honestly for as unhappy as a lot of people are with the RC, the majority of the banlist seems to make most people happy (myself included).
I agree with over-regulation. Nobody wants that. The shorter a banlist, the better. But I don't think the RC loses out on casual players - and the format as a whole does not suffer - by taking cEDH just a BIT more into account. There are absolutely cards that competitive players feel should be banned because they absolutely break the game. Some of those cards can be looked at for banning because the more casual players lose very little by their banning. Again, Tooth and Nail. How does is the player negatively affected by something of that power level being banned, and is that negative effect lesser than or greater than the negative effect of me tutoring for Mike n' Trike to kill the table?
Again, I'm NOT saying to build some new banlist or alter the one we have for a competitive slant; I'm just saying, the RC loses nothing by acknowledging that competitive EDH is a thing and some cards can be utterly abused if we're allowed. I think you'd find if you took cEDH into account just...20% more, you'd only find 1-2 cards that really need to be banned, and probably nothing that needs to be taken off.
The other issue is the whole mentality of "well, whatever works with your playgroup." That's just an impossibility, to be frank. Like it or not, the format is sanctioned now, which means a stricter sense of rules is important. I'm all for house rules and the like as well, but those do me zero good when I go to a GP to pick up some side games. If my play group has banned Necro but yours hasn't, I'm going to lose that game.
It really comes down to inclusivity. How much do you lose by forcing a subset, however small you think it may be, to play "your" format "your" way? How much do you gain by opening the door just a crack and listening to that subset 10% more?
I guess my response to that would be, what do you lose?
What do you lose by being more inclusive of cEDH concerns? I'm not talking about building a banlist with cEDH in mind, but just occasionally looking at what those players think is overpowered from a competitive standpoint. Tooth and Nail is a perfect example: it can absolutely be played fair, but...come on. Nobody does that. I feel like I'm being demonized and marginalized because I use Tooth and Nail to (god forbid apparently) search out Kiki-Jiki and Zealous Conscripts. I guess I just don't understand why, if its a social format at its core, why are distinctly competitive and cards that are frankly impossible to play fair, not banned? Coalition Victory is banned but Tooth and Nail isn't because....what, feels? They both say "you win," so I'm not sure what the difference between them is - and more importantly, what do casual players lose by NOT having that card? They lose a potentially fun interaction, but they gain the ability to not get one-shot out of the game (and therefore everybody has more fun).
The ban list loses nothing by being a bit more inclusive of ALL the players who have latched onto EDH. Its great you've got your vision, but vision and reality sometimes differ and by forcing EDH into your little box, you're actively pissing off a sizable chunk of players. And nobody is saying the banlist is ***** and needs to be totally revamped....we just want our voices to mean a bit more when it comes to the discussion. Because right now, no matter how nicely you try and phrase it, all I hear from every post is "that's nice, now screw off."
I just want my opinion to matter a little more, not be immediately marginalized because I'm apparently not your target audience.
The first thing the naysayers commented was, "does Lorescale Coatl see Legacy play?" as if that answered the question right then and there. But there are a lot of differences that honestly make me think of Goyf with this guy.
1) the casting cost being 2U means it fits into lots of decks that could play it. BUG, RUG, Delver, whatever. It's easily splashed, much like goyf can just be thrown into virtually any deck running green.
2) it rewards you for playing cards that, as a legacy blue player, you are already running. You don't have to add anything to make Skulker better, because you're already running Brainstorm and probably other draw as well (Gitaxian Probe, Street Wraith, etc). In addition it counts your normal draws.
3) It replaces itself when it dies (short of Swords/Path). That's a big deal, because it means if you play it on turn 3 with no draw spells to immediately pump it, that's the only time your opponent can kill it and you gain absolutely zero value. If you play it later with the potential to draw in response to removal, you will at least get 1+ tokens out of the deal. And delver/Pyromancer builds have shown that tokens can smash face in legacy. Especially islandwalking tokens.
The easy casting cost, the value when it dies, and the "Brainstorm, draw for turn, swing for 5?" just screams playable to me. This is not Lorescale Coatl, it's much better. I honestly really want to try him out in a UR Pyromancer build.
Spot removal and taking extra turns, so far, is all I've got. I WANT to abuse her by putting in things like Apocalypse and Jokulhaups, but doing so kills your ability to re-cast her which is obviously where her strength lies.. =/ Additionally, I want to cast things like Monomania or Wit's End or Sorin's Vengeance, but those target single players, while Jeleva works best in a multiplayer game, exiling many player's spells.
Lastly, I want to run things that help her deal damage or at least move my own game forward, but if you don't run a critical mass of spells you end up blanking on her ETB ability; so far I average one spell on her first casting, 2-3 on her second, and usually by her third it's about game over; but I feel like I'm not really doing much to the field itself. It totally depends on what my opponent has.
Anyone have any ideas on how to tighten it down a bit?
Some of these are really good. i started pulling cards from binders last night and came up with a few interesting ones:
I had to use Gatherer to remember some of their names, but these are what I'm currently thinking of abusing the hell out of
There aren't a lot of critters I want to abuse with Jeleva, but the ones I do are mostly Nucklavee and Galvanoth; I want to be able to re-cast, or cast for free, my big spells, ideally leaving my mana free to cast/recast Jeleva as often as possible. I also want to be able to use my opponent's spells against him; that way I not only get my own spells to abuse, but my opponent's can help me dip into other color and spells I can't run in my own list. To that effect, Blatant Thievery, Bribery, Mind's Desire, Spelltwine and Knowledge Exploitation all seem like entertaining cards to use.
The only thing I'm worried about is a real win condition. do I just mess with my opponent so much that I get enough damage through with whatever critters I can get out? Or is there a stupid combo I'm forgetting about that will let me win the game without dealing 21 general damage...
This is how I play. I enjoy playing with otherwise lack-luster commanders because hey, they're in my binder, and otherwise they'll just sit there gathering dust for the next decade. So I play a mono black with Shaku, the Endbringer as my general, and its fun. It's not my 1v1 competitive deck, but it's one I enjoy playing and it gives variance to my playgroup, so I like it.
I myself have 5-6 decks at any given time, so I try to have a variety of different styles. I can play fun, interactive and unusual decks, I can play 1v1 competitive lists (where the prize is often a dual land or something similar, yeah, I'm there to make you cry and take home the trophy), I can play big 5-6 player multiplayer Planechase events...whatever. I like to be able to switch it up.
In terms of what cards or strategies piss me off....non-interactive strategies, I guess? Or "mass slow down" cards like Nether Void, Smokestack, mass land destruction. In 1v1 I understand that those strategies are fair, and they're not nearly as infuriating; in a big multiplayer game, where a well timed Armageddon or Boom//Bust can slow the next 10 turns to a complete crawl? You're an *******. Infinite combos don't get me too much, because to me it still takes a fair amount of work to assemble any infinite combo, and if you get me before I can interrupt you or kill you flat out, then you probably deserve to win, especially seeing as how your infinite combo is probably 3-5 cards(!).
So yeah, in general, I'd have to say stax/mass counterspells are most likely to make me walk away. A buddy of mine has a mono blue deck that's basically Morphing/Opposition/Stax/Counters, and I refuse to play that deck unless we're in a tournament. It's beyond infuriating.
The early game rush is mitigated by cards like Centaur Healer; if aggro (especially aggro that can kill you by turn 4) is prevalent in your meta, then you need to run more Healer to compensate for that. My previous versions were running Restoration Angel as well, which would often just prove too much for aggro to handle - the turn 3 Healer into a turn 4 Restoration Angel, blink, double block was just too much for them. Now that super quick aggro is on the fall, that's not so much a problem anymore.
Generally speaking, your early plays are drawing/filtering as much as possible, hit a turn 3 Healer, and a turn 4 reanimation or Seance to start reanimating multiple dudes. Yes, it's a slower start, but depending on your meta that doesn't matter. And it's not like you're not doing anything - you're filtering cards, and making sure your mid/late game is better. If you run Lingering Souls, you play those out and chumps to buy you time. In my opinion, turns 4/5 are really when this deck start to hit hard. Everything else is just surviving.
On the Hellkite - I love him in certain builds, but it really depends on your build. I don't believe he fits in a Frites list, but I DO think he belongs in a Seance list, if that makes sense. If you ran Seance in a R/W or R/W/G list, then I'd say yes, obviously you run Hellkite. As it is, we're more Junk colors with a splash for red, and that's not the best environment for Hellkite. Just my opinion, though; test it out. If he smashes face, more power to you.
Yes, Seance and Trostani don't work together. That's one card, and Trostani's value is elsewhere. If anything Seance is BETTER than unburial rites, because it's every turn. You can't attack with the token, but you can certainly get value out of it's ETB effects; and if it's something like a Thragtusk, it leaves a body behind. Seance-ing a Thragtusk on my opp's turn, blocking their dude, gaining 5 and getting a 3/3 to attack next turn has absolutely won me games. Seance-ing back a Restoration Angel, blinking a Thragtusk, has won me games. Seance-ing back a Disciple of Bolas, saccing Thragtusk, has won me games.
Think outside the box.
My latest version of Seance (because I actually run a Seance list, and have only recently changed it out to make it a little more "Frites-like"), gets solid card selection and draw with the usual Looting, Grisly Salvage, etc; which then leads to late game advantage when Seance hits the field and the majority of my dudes start pulling double duty. Reanimate when you can, obviously, but you're also casting creatures as well: Seancing an Angel of Serenity on their turn to exile three dudes, swing with your team, then bounce their dudes to their hand? Seems Good. Or Seance the angel during their turn, bounce two threats and one dude for you, then recast it during your turn? I don't know about you guys, but I love getting double or even triple value out of my cards.
Trostani in play makes Seance broken - I have won numerous games by populating Thragtusk tokens to a ridiculous degree, gaining 8 life every time Trostani populates..that's, in a word, awesome. Trostani is certainly not required to make Seance work, but it's certainly beyond broken when she does.
For reference, I've been top 4ing FNM with this list every week, and I got 16th at States with a 5 color version. I think adding in Unburial Rites will make it even stronger, but hey, if you don't want to run Seance, by all means. Yes, it gets O-Ringed and D-sphere'd, but it's just ADDED value, it's not NECESSARY value. The idea is to create an overwhelming mass of dudes from hand and dudes from graveyard. Seance, Unburial Rites and your hand give you an overwhelming advantage.
But by all means, don't play it if you think it's too weak.....
This is the latest direction I've taken mine as well. Frites can just explode with card selection, and dumping dudes into the yard makes Seance that much better.
My team's original build ran three Trostani; when we took the deck to 4 and 5 colors, we cut her because of the intense mana requirements. Two of the team have since cut back to 3 colors again and both run Trostani - she's awesome at what she does, but I still dislike her; she's a naturally defensive card, and lifegain does not win you the game. I saw life totals in the 800s (850-some, if I recall), but the game goes super long and you may not even win, just draw. To me, the deck needs something more aggressive. Vorapede has been one answer that works extremely well - that and Disciple together are a tough duo.
Loxodon Smiter is also a possibility, except he does nothing for the overall plan of the deck. When he dies, his only benefit to Seance is as a blocker. And while Seance is just a part of the deck and not the lynchpin, I feel that running dudes that don't synergize with it is a mistake. Yes, Smiter is good against a Rakdos Return, and Liliana. But that's about it, and Rakdos' Return is really only brought in game 2 with Jund. Additionally, we have no turn 1 ramp, so Smiter is just a turn 3 beater.
Shaman is a possibility, though I haven't tested it yet. Being able to things can make a stalemate into a slow grind, which does occasionally happen with this version of the deck.
Related, here's my updated list. There doesn't seem to be a lot of interest in the archetype anymore, but I've had nothing but success with what I'm playing. All the excitement is in Jund midrange and UWx control, but my team's list beats both of those pretty easily. For this week, we're seeing what happens if we go back down to 4 colors and "aggro" the list a little bit more:
3 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Blood Crypt
2 Woodland Cemetary
3 Rootbound Crag
2 Sunpetal Grove
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Vault of the Archangel
1 Kessig Wolf Run
4 Restoration Angel
2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
3 Centaur Healer
2 Armada Wurm
1 Angel of Serenity
1 Thundermaw Hellkite
2 Garruk, Primal Hunter
1 Selesnya Keyrune
2 Seance
3 Mana Bloom
4 Farseek
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Faithless Looting
2 Barter In Blood
2 Abrupt Decay
Changes are mostly just cutting blue. I was going to try Think Twice instead of the Forbidden Alchemy I've been running, but cutting blue entirely makes the mana much smoother. I haven't tried this list yet, it's all theoretical still.
Faithless Looting: Obviously Frites runs it to great effect, and if I was running Alchemy without a problem then the discard from Looting shouldn't be that big of a deal. Also, because it's cheaper, I can fit it more on-curve with what I'm playing: there were lots of times I would wait to Alchemy until later in the game, simply because I was too busy playing out threats to actually want to cast Alchemy. Looting should let me do that faster, giving me better options at the expense of ditching cards out of hand. That will be a problem if/when my hand gets low, which is why I'm also including Garruk, PH.
Garruk, Primal Hunter: I don't really need to explain why Garruk is awesome. He's one of the best walkers against UWx control, and he makes up for the loss of card draw that occurs by cutting Disciple of Bolas entirely. He doesn't shoot opposing creatures, though; and he's another heavy drop, so I felt like I needed to compensate with...
Abrupt Decay: I was running Oblivion Ring to deal with problem permanents, but you know what ends up happening in like 90% of my games? I'm O-Ringing an O-Ring (or Detention Sphere) to get my dudes back. And that's annoying as hell. If I'm going to do that, I might as well run Decay, which permanently deals with problems, is uncounterable, instant speed, etc etc. Decay does not hit Walkers the way O-Ring does though; I feel like that will be okay though, because the overall list is taking on a more aggro feel to it. Also, I have Hellkite.
Thundermaw Hellkite: I'm taking a page out of Jund's book for this one. Hellkite is awesome, and is arguably my second favorite creature in standard right now. Being able to tap down angel tokens and swing into a Jace that UWx thought was protected, that's a good play. The double-red may be an issue, but we'll test it out and see how it goes. I think having a heavier-hitting, aggro version will do well.
Barter in Blood: I will probably miss Supreme Verdict. Uncounterable and hits everything in play, no questions asked. Barter In Blood seems like the best alternative, and if they're forced to block a lot of my guys they should hopefully be low on creatures anyway. The downside is, of course, sometimes two guys isn't enough, and it probably won't save my ass if I'm starting to lose. But it's easier on the mana base and it still answers Geist of St. Traft, as well as other heavy hitters that something like Rolling Tremblor wouldn't.
Selesyna Keyrune: Another nod to Jund. May end up being taken out, because as a 1x how vital can it be (plus, I think I'm at 61 cards)? I feel like having one more ramp spell, that survives a Verdict, Barter in Blood, and sorcery speed removal, is a really good thing. It's not a 3/1 first striker, but the G/W mana is more important for the deck and 3/3 still packs a hit. Being able to keep pressure on the UWx player, even after a Verdict or a Terminus, can really win you the game.
Opinions are always welcome. I feel like I'm the only one still really reading this thread and trying new ideas.
3 Sunpetal Grove
3 Hallowed Fountain
3 Temple Garden
4 Overgrown Tomb
2 Steam Vents
1 Vault of the Archangel
3 Hinterland Harbor
1 Woodland Cemetery
4 Thragtusk
1 Disciple of Bolas
2 Armada Wurm
4 Restoration Angel
2 Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage
3 Centaur Healer
1 Angel of Serenity
2 Mana Bloom
4 Farseek
3 Supreme Verdict
2 Sever the Bloodline
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Forbidden Alchemy
2 Garruk Relentless // Garruk, the Veil-Cursed
3 Zealous Conscripts
3 Sundering Growth
2 Slaughter Games
2 Negate
2 Tragic Slip
2 Slayer of the Wicked
Changes from my list posted above:
I decided to try out the Guildmage, which has had a net positive result. As other posters have said, being able to populate for 4 mana is just stupid; any game I start populating Thragtusks, I win. The card advantage is just too much at that point. Additionally, in the later turns (with 8+ mana), it just gets downright stupid. Guildmage also helps the early game, by giving me multiple things to do on turn 2. I can ramp if I have it, but I can also keep hands with a turn 2 Guildmage to help stall out the aggro rush. I have yet to use his 4WG ability (putting a centaur into play), but the ability to do so shouldn't be overlooked...
Angel of Serenity needs to be main, in every list. She is so good. She's absolutely game ending, even if removed. I'm probably going to up her to for this week's tournament, because I love seeing her. One has been effective, though, because of Garruk being maindeck.
Garruk was a card I kept siding in for almost all my games - he's good against control, he's good against Jund, and he's good against the WG aggro lists; and in all of those except control, it's spectacular to shoot one of their dudes, flip Garruk, then sacrifice a thragtusk to search out a Zealous Conscripts, play it, attack....I've won numerous games off the Garruk + Conscripts synergy (swinging for 15 damage in one turn seems good).
I've cut Disciple to a 1x solely because I don't know what else to cut. Disciple is a good card, but I never, ever liked seeing it in my opening hand, and it really only seemed necessary if I was falling behind. But honestly, as long as Seance lands - and sticks - I never really fall behind.
Slayer of the Wicked out of the board is the stone cold nuts. I didn't think it would be that impressive, but really...it kills everything Jund plays short of Thragtusk and Rakdos Keyrune. It kills everything Rakdos Aggro/Zombies plays; it kills Olivia, Vampire Nighthawk, Huntmaster, etc. etc. And it blocks like a champ. I didn't think it'd be that big of a deal, but so far I've been loving it out of the board.
Tragic Slip is a new addition I'll be trying this week. I really, REALLY miss having instant-speed removal, and most of my losses come from not being able to use spare mana at the end of my opponent's turn; or, for instance, killing their Thragtusk, then still having to deal with the Beast token left behind. If I could attack with my dudes, kill their Thragtusk, then Slip the beast token, I think that would have stolen some games for me.
Seriously though, give it a try. I've been having great success with it so far.