Very well-designed card; growing it to 4/4 giving it protection from instants requires one to invest 3 mana, but leveling up at sorcery speed can potentially cause a huge tempo loss if it is removed in response to the third activation.
It is certainly threatening enough to justify holding instant-speed removal for, as well. (unless you got a board wipe or a roast)
I mean, Plague Sliver is a functional Juzam in most random decks, and that has not ever seen competitive play. Heck, its pricetag suggests that casual players do not really like it much, either.
Glacial Revelation does make the Johnny in me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, though.
As someone who deals a ton in the realm of MTG Finance, I will say this to everyone arguing in favor of the merits of the secondary market: your words fall on deaf ears. The people on the other side of the argument are based in emotion, not logic, similar to those who argue in favor of a higher minimum wage.
Just drop the argument before you find yourselves frustrated.
Whoa, I have been in Standard-land for the past month only to completely miss Sandfrog actually thinking the idea of Chalice-less "Free Win Skred" was viable and taking the deck to new heights of visibility! On top of that, SaffronOlive recently streamed it and 5-0ed, too!
Ironically, I 1-4ed the league after I posted here (after 5-0 and three 4-1s) and never looked back, since Standard became interesting again and had no real Modern play since.
As for the next goal of Pyro Prison , since you asked, I did tweet out to Frank LePore. I asked if he would consider showcasing our deck in his 'Modern Monday' feature. No word yet. Disclosure: I've been pretty regularly googling: Ray Karkman Pyro Prison. I want to see what kind of traction we're getting out there. There have been some interesting hits here and overseas. In case anyone was wondering, Pyro Prison is currently .04% of the Modern competitive meta.
I would definitely send a tweet/e-mail to SaffronOlive and MTGGoldfish to feature this deck, since he LOVES his Free Win Red and this is so close to his list and has the credibility of taking down a competitive event.
To the New voices in the Great Hall under the Mountain - Welcome. Demilich brings spells from our cousin deck, Skred. It seems odd that we haven't had more crossover thus far. Skred, eh.....
Well, you've put up some sound reasoning for going without the cup, and opting for the lightning: (7) Bolts. It seems like just yesterday Lightning Bolt fell off the map. Once the #1 played card in Modern, it was rendered worthless in a world of Eldrazi/Death's Shadow/Tarmogoyf/Tussledfur, the Hidden Wang/Gurmag Angler & Swarm Decks. Is the bolt back, as Demilich proposes? Is he ahead of the curve here?
Huh. That's a lot of Affinity and Small White. Bolt would do well here. Buuuuut, Sweltering Suns might do even better. As for the assessments of Chalice of the Void, I will keep an open mind in the ongoing discussion. You do a very good job of detailing its scale of effectiveness. Ultimately, it's a question of denying ourselves immediate gratification (1-drops) [bolts/relic of progenitus] in exchange for higher cost spells. Higher cost spells are usually more impactful. Lastly, Chalice does wreck a very prevalent deck that you didn't mention: Burn, and there was a Naya Burn in the top 8 in Vegas.
Quote from DemilichKodin »
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
Another fan of Sin Prodder? I gotta do some more testing with this li'l fella! As for the 'weak/grindy' matchups, I would think Goblin Rabblemaster would be more effective? He's certainly a faster clock: (7) damage on the turn after he comes into play.
The inclusion of Bolt and Skred is interesting, since it does have the limitations that are well-documented (well, Skred CAN eventually grow to kill the 4 and 5-toughness threats). However, this is exactly why we have Ensnaring Bridge, and Relic or Progenitus can be used to keep a deck like Death's Shadow off of Delve for a turn or two (which usually makes a difference). It is a little bit weaker against Grixis Shadow than the Chalice version, although I have pulled off a couple of game steals with double-Bolt to a 6 life opponent.
However, Bolt and Skred are not here for the big beefy beaters that plague Modern, but the annoying insects that are too dangerous to let live even one turn early in the game. The Barals, Electromancers, Devoted Druids, Thalias, Dark Confidants, Devoted Druids, Steel Overseers, and Devoted Druids of the world all provide a threat that presents a barrier to winning a match, and they all cost 2 mana. Chalice on X-2 is doable, but it is very hard to pull off before one of these hits the table, and Magma Jet does not take care of all of these. Sweltering Suns does, but at sorcery speed, we are dead to the dreaded EOT Chord for Druid, cast Vizier next turn for the win...not to mention the fact that it eats an entire turn for us.
I have been relying heavily on Dragon's Claw to make games 2 and 3 favorable against Burn, and it is successful when it lands, even if it means eating a Destructive Revelry instead of a Blood Moon.
Chalice makes the deck better against the likes of Living End (I would rather have Chalice than Relic), Ad Nauseam, Burn, and slightly Grixis Shadow, and you can safely use more Gemstone Caverns not needing to worry about a snow quota. The 1 CMC package does a better job against Storm, Company, Hatebears, and Dredge (and is cheaper :P). I am not sure which package gets the edge against Jund Shadow and Affinity, since both sets of hosers do excellent work here. This is definitely not a case of me saying, "Chalice is $70 toilet paper, don't use it", it is an excellent card in the deck's framework. I just cannot let go of the inskredible (ugh, did I really just type that?) job that the Bolt/Skred/Relic utility package has provided me for a couple of months now against some of the meta's big contributors.
Sin Prodder is interesting, since it dies to as much removal as Rabblemaster, yet seems much slower than his goblin counterpart. When I think of "grindy" matchups, I think of matchups that employ one or more big creatures capable of trading with Rabblemaster for days (Jund is the best example). Rabblemaster does very little if it is not allowed to attack, since it just poops out tokens that get chumped (unless you build a bridge barrier)...but Sin Prodder is the grindy deck's worst nightmare. That big creature wall suddenly cannot block alone, while Prodder provides either extra cards, extra damage, or land filtration (e.g. your opponent sending a Mountain to the graveyard for 0 life). Against control decks, 4 extra threats instead of a card like Ensnaring Bridge is a welcome addition, too. Overall, I fancy Sin Prodder as the "inverse" of Rabblemaster; Rabble wants to end the game quickly, whereas Sin Prodder punishes the opponent who wants to drag it out. I am not sure if Prodder is better than Outpost Siege in this role, but I favored him because Blood Moon usually lures enchantment hate out of sideboards, anyway.
Of course, this is all just food for thought. Congratulations on taking down the 1K!
So I have been testing a build that is similar to the standard framework created within this topic and after testing it on MTGO leagues and going 5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, and 3-1-1 (I threw a match to let someone live his 5-0 dream in a G3 deadlocked boardstate while I was at 2-1), I am ready to submit it for the approval of the demigods in this topic :).
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
Does nothing against Eldrazi Tron
Is an annoyance to Grixis Death's Shadow, but we usually still need a Bridge to ensure we do not get overtaken by Gurmags and Tasigur. Not to mention a good player will be conservative with his life total once we drop the Chalice.
Is a minor annoyance against CoCo-based decks, and without removal, we are very soft to their combos.
Does nothing of significance against Dredge.
Does stop a lot of Storm's cantrips, but we will get destroyed if we cannot take Baral/Electromancer off the field.
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
Relic is not great against Company, but Lightning Bolt and Skred definitely are; Devoted Druid eats instant-speed removal on sight to prevent the combo, and our gameplan tends to favor us in the long-term provided we can stick either a Bridge to keep creatures at bay or a Moon to prevent Township from working. Anger after sticking a Moon usually sets them back so far that it is nearly impossible for them to win, and while they can theoretically Chord for silver bullets (Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit against Bridge/Moon and Anger respectively), we have far more targets than they have bullets.
I find Rabblemaster to be pretty bad in this matchup; it nonbos with Anger of the Gods and trades too easily with the likes of Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks.
This has been a helpful discussion as someone who plays w/o Chalice due to budget
Given their current price, I should really be trying to move them. Keep in mind that a meta full of Affinity, Burn, and Death's Shadow benefits far more from the Chalice plan. However, Storm is a large part of the MTGO meta due to the deck's relatively-low price, and so is Company, so I prefer the 1 CMC package.
I know that Chalice is indeed a strong card, and it is likely replacing Dragon's Claw in my SB due to its ability to be effective against Ad Nauseam (X=0 or 1), Affinity (X=0), and Living End (X=0) while still doing work against Burn (X=1) and Storm (X=2).
I dislike relying on Chalice for two reasons:
Chalice alone does not "win the game", unlike Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, or an early Goblin Rabblemaster against some matchups. Yes, it helps to support these cards, but Blood Moon and Ensnaring Bridge provide support to each other, as well.
Many decks do not care about any of these 4 prison pieces to win the game, including two top-tier decks in Company and Storm. OK, so Storm does care about Chalice on 2, but one Remand immediately spells game over if this is our only defense against the deck. Against Vizier/Druid, we just die, and the same holds true against many Storm scenarios and Dredge.
In my games thus far, the primary threat to Ensnaring Bridge has been Kolaghan's Command (infeasible to protect against with Chalice) with Lightning Bolt/Skred providing more than reasonable backup in the event that I lose it and Blood Moon usually protects itself in the games that I can cheat it out on Turns 1 and 2.
In paper, I have about 30 Chalices from buying collections over the years, and online, I have a playset, so my prerogative is not a budget concern. The presence of two Tier 1 decks that rely on 2 CMC spells, use creature-based engines, and are resilient to both Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon caused me to rethink Chalice's place in my maindeck.
So I have been testing a build that is similar to the standard framework created within this topic and after testing it on MTGO leagues and going 5-0, 4-1, 4-1, 4-1, and 3-1-1 (I threw a match to let someone live his 5-0 dream in a G3 deadlocked boardstate while I was at 2-1), I am ready to submit it for the approval of the demigods in this topic :).
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
Does nothing against Eldrazi Tron
Is an annoyance to Grixis Death's Shadow, but we usually still need a Bridge to ensure we do not get overtaken by Gurmags and Tasigur. Not to mention a good player will be conservative with his life total once we drop the Chalice.
Is a minor annoyance against CoCo-based decks, and without removal, we are very soft to their combos.
Does nothing of significance against Dredge.
Does stop a lot of Storm's cantrips, but we will get destroyed if we cannot take Baral/Electromancer off the field.
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.
Tempest's art says hi :P.
As for Nether Spirit, meh, works well with a Turn 1 Faithless Looting at least. I would have much rather seen a card like Unmask appear here, though.
It is certainly threatening enough to justify holding instant-speed removal for, as well. (unless you got a board wipe or a roast)
Glacial Revelation does make the Johnny in me feel all warm and fuzzy inside, though.
I sure hope so; given it saw a 7E reprint and has seen success with Squirrel Nest in the past, I think it is certainly possible.
Just drop the argument before you find yourselves frustrated.
Ironically, I 1-4ed the league after I posted here (after 5-0 and three 4-1s) and never looked back, since Standard became interesting again and had no real Modern play since.
I would definitely send a tweet/e-mail to SaffronOlive and MTGGoldfish to feature this deck, since he LOVES his Free Win Red and this is so close to his list and has the credibility of taking down a competitive event.
The inclusion of Bolt and Skred is interesting, since it does have the limitations that are well-documented (well, Skred CAN eventually grow to kill the 4 and 5-toughness threats). However, this is exactly why we have Ensnaring Bridge, and Relic or Progenitus can be used to keep a deck like Death's Shadow off of Delve for a turn or two (which usually makes a difference). It is a little bit weaker against Grixis Shadow than the Chalice version, although I have pulled off a couple of game steals with double-Bolt to a 6 life opponent.
However, Bolt and Skred are not here for the big beefy beaters that plague Modern, but the annoying insects that are too dangerous to let live even one turn early in the game. The Barals, Electromancers, Devoted Druids, Thalias, Dark Confidants, Devoted Druids, Steel Overseers, and Devoted Druids of the world all provide a threat that presents a barrier to winning a match, and they all cost 2 mana. Chalice on X-2 is doable, but it is very hard to pull off before one of these hits the table, and Magma Jet does not take care of all of these. Sweltering Suns does, but at sorcery speed, we are dead to the dreaded EOT Chord for Druid, cast Vizier next turn for the win...not to mention the fact that it eats an entire turn for us.
I have been relying heavily on Dragon's Claw to make games 2 and 3 favorable against Burn, and it is successful when it lands, even if it means eating a Destructive Revelry instead of a Blood Moon.
Chalice makes the deck better against the likes of Living End (I would rather have Chalice than Relic), Ad Nauseam, Burn, and slightly Grixis Shadow, and you can safely use more Gemstone Caverns not needing to worry about a snow quota. The 1 CMC package does a better job against Storm, Company, Hatebears, and Dredge (and is cheaper :P). I am not sure which package gets the edge against Jund Shadow and Affinity, since both sets of hosers do excellent work here. This is definitely not a case of me saying, "Chalice is $70 toilet paper, don't use it", it is an excellent card in the deck's framework. I just cannot let go of the inskredible (ugh, did I really just type that?) job that the Bolt/Skred/Relic utility package has provided me for a couple of months now against some of the meta's big contributors.
Sin Prodder is interesting, since it dies to as much removal as Rabblemaster, yet seems much slower than his goblin counterpart. When I think of "grindy" matchups, I think of matchups that employ one or more big creatures capable of trading with Rabblemaster for days (Jund is the best example). Rabblemaster does very little if it is not allowed to attack, since it just poops out tokens that get chumped (unless you build a bridge barrier)...but Sin Prodder is the grindy deck's worst nightmare. That big creature wall suddenly cannot block alone, while Prodder provides either extra cards, extra damage, or land filtration (e.g. your opponent sending a Mountain to the graveyard for 0 life). Against control decks, 4 extra threats instead of a card like Ensnaring Bridge is a welcome addition, too. Overall, I fancy Sin Prodder as the "inverse" of Rabblemaster; Rabble wants to end the game quickly, whereas Sin Prodder punishes the opponent who wants to drag it out. I am not sure if Prodder is better than Outpost Siege in this role, but I favored him because Blood Moon usually lures enchantment hate out of sideboards, anyway.
Of course, this is all just food for thought. Congratulations on taking down the 1K!
Relic is not great against Company, but Lightning Bolt and Skred definitely are; Devoted Druid eats instant-speed removal on sight to prevent the combo, and our gameplan tends to favor us in the long-term provided we can stick either a Bridge to keep creatures at bay or a Moon to prevent Township from working. Anger after sticking a Moon usually sets them back so far that it is nearly impossible for them to win, and while they can theoretically Chord for silver bullets (Rec Sage and Selfless Spirit against Bridge/Moon and Anger respectively), we have far more targets than they have bullets.
I find Rabblemaster to be pretty bad in this matchup; it nonbos with Anger of the Gods and trades too easily with the likes of Eternal Witness and Kitchen Finks.
Given their current price, I should really be trying to move them. Keep in mind that a meta full of Affinity, Burn, and Death's Shadow benefits far more from the Chalice plan. However, Storm is a large part of the MTGO meta due to the deck's relatively-low price, and so is Company, so I prefer the 1 CMC package.
I dislike relying on Chalice for two reasons:
In my games thus far, the primary threat to Ensnaring Bridge has been Kolaghan's Command (infeasible to protect against with Chalice) with Lightning Bolt/Skred providing more than reasonable backup in the event that I lose it and Blood Moon usually protects itself in the games that I can cheat it out on Turns 1 and 2.
In paper, I have about 30 Chalices from buying collections over the years, and online, I have a playset, so my prerogative is not a budget concern. The presence of two Tier 1 decks that rely on 2 CMC spells, use creature-based engines, and are resilient to both Ensnaring Bridge and Blood Moon caused me to rethink Chalice's place in my maindeck.
Something that bothers me about this list is Chalice of the Void. Do not get me wrong, it is a decent card, but it is not as strong as some would like to believe in the current Modern meta. Chalice on 1:
In my eyes, the opportunity cost of running Chalice outweighs the benefits of including it; therefore, I created my own build based upon my Skred Red roots.
2 Faithless Looting
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Blood Moon
4 Relic of Progenitus
3 Skred
1 Pia and Kiran Nalaar
4 Goblin Rabblemaster
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Gemstone Caverns
19 Snow-Covered Mountain
4 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Sin Prodder
3 Anger of the Gods
2 Shattering Spree
4 Dragon's Claw
2 Magus of the Moon
The rationale behind my choices:
4 Lightning Bolt and 3 Skred--In a world where small creatures fuel the combos of two Tier 1 decks, instant-speed removal in the CMC 1 slot is so important. We can run Sweltering Suns, but it does not matter if Collected Company fetches a Devoted Druid at the end of our turn. Skred has the additional upside of being able to kill larger creatures as the game progresses, with Lightning Bolt providing game against opposing PWs and providing burn vs Death's Shadow. Both of these also work well with our overall gameplan, being easy to cast after turboing out something with mana acceleration of Turns 1 and 2.
4 Relic of Progenitus--Such a low opportunity cost to run with a huge upside if it functions as a hoser. Can provides emergency fuel to Pia and Kiran Nalaar in the pinch.
2 Faithless Looting--Works well with Ensnaring Bridge and does better filtering than Tormenting Voice for 1 fewer mana, although it is indeed card disadvantage (which is why I settled on 2).
The manabase--I like at least 19 snow lands to work with Skred, but I would rather opt for mana consistency than risk swapping out a mountain for Scrying Sheets.
4 Sin Prodder (SB)--I find myself siding out Ensnaring Bridge and Goblin Rabblemaster a fair amount, and Sin Prodder is amazing at covering the weak matchups for these two cards. Against grindy matchups where I cannot kill quickly, I replace Rabblemaster and enjoy the card advantage provided by Prodder. Against matchups where Rabblemaster will be stonewalled by one large creature, Prodder's menace can sneak right through for some damage. In control matchups where Bridge does little to nothing of significance, Sin Prodder is an all-star.
3 Anger of the Gods (SB)--Against creature swarms, Goblin Rabblemaster is a card we do not really want. Instead, we replace it with this and grind out our opponent with our superior suite of removal and prison pieces. It also serves as collateral hate vs Kitchen Finks and Dredge.
4 Dragon Claw (SB)--It might be overkill, but it is a good card against Storm's gameplan, as well as being excellent against Burn.
2 Magus of the Moon (SB)--This is more of a personal choice, since I am adverse to having 4 Moon effects in the deck in Game 1. These get sided in for the matchups in which my opponent knows that it is coming, but is still greatly hindered by its presence.
Losing Chalice is not something many people find attractive, but I have enjoyed the new tools made available by excluding it from the list.