Been lurking for a while. Initially I was very anti BBE in Ponza, but with all the work done here and elsewhere it has become a decent subsection of Ponza. I feel "traditional" Ponza is more a control style that wins off a limited number of big threats, while BBE Ponza is more a midrange value oriented playstyle. Both versions are good in their own rites, but sadly I currently can't afford a set of BBE, so I'm stuck with my GDD build for a while.
Despite my initial dislike of Bloodbraid, after reading a lot of comments on people both praising and criticizing it's usefulness in Ponza, I have to admit I understand both arguments. There's definitely space for it in certain builds, but other builds do not want it. I'm a long time supporter of Goblin Dark-Dwellers being useful in Ponza, but also see it as not as useful in certain builds. Both Bloodbraid and Dark-Dwellers affect how you design the rest of your deck, so in that aspect they're the same. Once the hype dies down, we'll likely have people revert to BBE-less builds, and others will keep their BBE lists.
Ah today was bad. I drew bad. I don't mind loosing good games but not drawing land game 2 and then on game 3 all lands both matches. Still on the Regissaur is awesome train
What does it do though? It's a nice body, and the 3/3 is okay. But I can't see the value in it over Swagtusk, GDD or Stormbae
It's 7 power for 5 mana, 3 of which has haste.
I got a chance to play one last. Friday. It's very good, helped close that game very quickly. That said, it might warrant more testing to see if I keep it in my build.
It makes a pushable, boltable creature and provides no other value. At the very least is has to be worse than Thragtusk right? Which I don't find good enough anyway.
The difference between Thrag and the Dino is Thrag's 5 life with a delayed vanilla 3/3 token vs no 5 life and a hasting, trampling 3/3 token. Also, 5/3 vs 4/4 on main body. This does fall into the personal preference flexible slots we have, so to each his own.
I'd like to discuss about the 6cmc spots :
- How good is Inferno Titan for you ? How many would you play (I play 2 atm)
- Would you consider playing Chandra, Flamecaller instead of one Titan ? (I play 0 atm)
- Same question for Wurmcoil Engine(I play 1 atm) or Carnage Tyrant or anything else ?
Misc. :
- Are we all ok with 4 of Mwonvuli Acid-Moss?
- I m probably cutting 1 Primal Command for my 2nd Thragtusk, any thoughts ?
- Is playing 10 fetchs too much ?
My 6 slot split is 2 Titan, 1 Flamecaller, and 1 Wurm (I have a masterpiece version ). But I personally see our 4-6 slot threats as our most flexible slots, leaving it largely up to personal choice between the many options that work best for our deck.
I personally only run 3 Acid-Moss and 1 Command, mostly because I run 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
On the Thrag thing, This may depend on your meta. I don't run any mainboard, and only 1 sideboard alongside 2 Kitchen Finks.
I run 8 fetches. 10 seems like a bit much, especially since we often take a sizable amount of damage before stabilizeing. So that much self damage is bad.
Ah today was bad. I drew bad. I don't mind loosing good games but not drawing land game 2 and then on game 3 all lands both matches. Still on the Regissaur is awesome train
What does it do though? It's a nice body, and the 3/3 is okay. But I can't see the value in it over Swagtusk, GDD or Stormbae
It's 7 power for 5 mana, 3 of which has haste.
I got a chance to play one last. Friday. It's very good, helped close that game very quickly. That said, it might warrant more testing to see if I keep it in my build.
6 for a 7/6 Uncountable, Trample, Hexproof beat stick is an awesome idea. The problem is, does it help our overall plan? Thrun is still viable as it comes out relatively early. Not sure 6 mana is viable against control through all the disruption that can stop our acceleration.
if you want to work with GDD you certainly need to change the make up of your spell suite. Blood Moon may not even work that well and becomes a 1 or 2 of, while you focus on re-using land destruction or value cards like molten rain or pulse of murasa alongside the usual suite of stone rains. You'll be dropping X value spells because they just don't work with your new plan. Maindeck bolts,or even Exquisite Firecrafts are attractive. Beast Within becomes questionable with so many red anti land options. Sweltering Suns becomes a super contender with the ability to cycle and then be used from the GY.
I disagree on the Moon assessment. While Goblin wants more 3 or less spells, Moon is too good to remove. I run 4 Moons and 3 Goblins and have had no problems with it.
Hi I'm currently a Skred Red player but over the years I've picked up the various cards to make Ponza and I was hoping for some advice as I prepare for PPTQ's.
Basically I look at Skred as a reactive deck that does well against aggro decks (other than boggles), creature decks, and control decks but struggles against combo decks (Storm, Ad Nauseam, Scapeshift, Grishoalbrand) and all Tron Variants.
This is where I may need some correction but it appears that Ponza is a far more proactive deck that isn't quite as good against the aggro decks, creature decks, but gains a lot against Combo and Tron decks (faster ramp into more land destruction/disruption). Am I roughly correct about this assessment?
I really do like playing Skred but post-board I often side in Molten Rains and feel like a poor imitation of Ponza, so I'm considering the switch to Ponza.
There's a number of variations on this awesome deck, but the core remains more or less the same across most lists. 4 Arbor Elf; 4 Utopia Sprawl; and 0-2 Birds of Paradise cover the acceleration needed to play most of our disruption on turn two. Ideally you want to land Blood Moon on turn two, but a turn two Stone Rain or Mwonvuli Acid-Moss is also good. The key is to pick a colour and send all your disruption against that colour.
As for how we close the game, this is where we're most flexible. We don't only have the ramp for early disruption, but also use it to land 5 and 6 mana threats as early as turn three, bashing face fast and hard. Some of my favorites include Stormbreath Dragon; Inferno Titan; and Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but as I said, this is our most versatile section, but also the part we seem to debate over the most.
As for removal, I've seen lists that run only Bonfire of the Damned mainboard, with cards like Roast and Sudden Shock in the sideboard. Some lists even have a number of Lightning Bolt mainboard. Personally, I dislike Bonfire, but I understand that others prefer it. Partially because I mainboard 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers, I use Mizzium Mortars instead of Bonfire, because it also doubles as a mainboard single target removal.
Primeval Light is a new addition to my sideboard. I noticed a rise in enchantment strategies recently, and while Back to Nature is more mana efficient, I don't want to run the risk of losing Moon and Sprawl.
I thought of adding a Goblin Dark-Dwellers but I can't find any copy so we were stuck on the original list.
A word of warning. While I am very pro Goblin Dark-Dwellers (I can't get over how good this card has been to me), I am fully aware that it is definitely a build around card. Don't just add it to your list, look over your list and see if it's worth adding. If you feel there's not enough targets for its etb effect, either don't add it, or edited your spells for it to use. Also, it doesn't grant flashback, so you can't pay for X on cards like Bonfire of the Damned, nor can you pay alternative costs like the Overload cost of Mizzium Mortars. You can, however, pay additional costs like Shattering Spree's Replicate.
Game 2 actually sided out moons and some land destruction for actual side cards against burn.
I personally think that is incorrect against burn. I played burn exclusively for over a year. Taking out acid moss and stone rain is fine, burn can obviously operate well with limited lands. But they struggle to remove a moon, and they play no non mountain basics in 99% of lists. Once you moon them they can never remove it or cast a green/white/black spell for the rest of the game. I have won many a game against burn because they died with 2 or 3 R/W R/G burn spells in hand that were useless.
If a blood moon blanks 2 burn spells that's 6 life gained.
Agreed. I often get asked why I leave Moon in against RDW, and my answer is that keeping him off his splash colours shuts off +-8 cards, depending on the build.
Had a poor turnout last night. Only 8 people pitched. I won 3-0, played against Grishoalbrand, GW Dubious Challenge, and Jund.
Grishoalbrand:
2-1 win, though this was the pilot's first time playing the deck.
Game 1 I destroyed his only basic Swamp on turn 2, Moon on turn 3, destroyed his only basic island on turn 4, he misused his only Manamorphose to return the Borborygmos Enraged he'd looted earlier. I proceeded to win on 2 life by swinging with my beat sticks and keeping his land count low to reduce the chances of him playing Through the Breach.
Game 3 I hit all the necessary cards on curve to get an easy win.
Jund:
2-0 Win. The guy was trying out Grim Flayer in his list, but claims he didn't like it because each time he got the damage trigger, he wanted to keep each card it revealed.
Game 1 I hit a turn two Moon and after destroying his green and black basics, I proceeded to win with two Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
Game 2 I didn't see a Moon, but had enough land destruction to deny him access to one colour. Won via superior beat sticks.
Dubious Challenge
2-1 win. This was actually an interesting matchup as the deck was based heavily on a design I did that has the potential for a turn two Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Thanks to a similar mana dorks set to us. After showing it to my friend, he ordered the cards. So I kind of knew what to expect.
Game 2 he managed to get an Emrakul off See the Unwritten, which is a backup Challenge.
Game 3 was close. I missed a few early land drops, he used Flickerwisp on my Sprawled land, I destroyed his Sprawled land, etc. I managed to stablise before he could Challenge me and managed to win with a Titan, a Dragon and a Goblin despite him hard casting Wurmcoil Engine.
Any thoughts on Chandra, Flamecaller? I run her in my maindeck and she really does everything I want.
I've yet to get Chandra, Torch of Defiance, but I've had a single Chandra Flamecaller in place of a 4th Inferno Titan for a long time. I wouldn't run both Chandras as they do different things but can't be out at the same time. I like keeping her as a 1 of in my deck as it's the 5th sweeper (her -X, I main 4 Mizzium Mortars) that doubles as a threat (her +1). I almost never use her wheel effect (her 0).
Mizzium mortars can't sweep the board early, and you can't overload with dark dwellers.
At least with Mortars you can get some use out of it from the graveyard. You can't choose a value for X off a Goblin targeting Bonfire as you cast it "without paying its mana cost."
I like the GDD but...you need to have more <3 spells in the deck and i'm not really sure that's the direction the deck wants to go. Not making use of the graveyard is a plus in my opinion.
How many 3 or less spells do you think is needed for Goblin Dark-Dwellers? I only run 10 legal targets for the Goblin (4 Mizzium Mortars, 4 Stone Rain, and 2 Beast Within) with 3 mainboard goblins and I almost always have something to recast.
This is the real deciding factor: Are we willing to take that risk? Personally, I'm not.
My 6 slot split is 2 Titan, 1 Flamecaller, and 1 Wurm (I have a masterpiece version
I personally only run 3 Acid-Moss and 1 Command, mostly because I run 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
On the Thrag thing, This may depend on your meta. I don't run any mainboard, and only 1 sideboard alongside 2 Kitchen Finks.
I run 8 fetches. 10 seems like a bit much, especially since we often take a sizable amount of damage before stabilizeing. So that much self damage is bad.
I got a chance to play one last. Friday. It's very good, helped close that game very quickly. That said, it might warrant more testing to see if I keep it in my build.
As for how we close the game, this is where we're most flexible. We don't only have the ramp for early disruption, but also use it to land 5 and 6 mana threats as early as turn three, bashing face fast and hard. Some of my favorites include Stormbreath Dragon; Inferno Titan; and Goblin Dark-Dwellers, but as I said, this is our most versatile section, but also the part we seem to debate over the most.
As for removal, I've seen lists that run only Bonfire of the Damned mainboard, with cards like Roast and Sudden Shock in the sideboard. Some lists even have a number of Lightning Bolt mainboard. Personally, I dislike Bonfire, but I understand that others prefer it. Partially because I mainboard 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers, I use Mizzium Mortars instead of Bonfire, because it also doubles as a mainboard single target removal.
Here's the list I use when not experimenting:
4x Arbor Elf
1x Birds of Paradise
3x Goblin Dark-Dwellers
3x Inferno Titan
3x Obstinate Baloth
2x Stormbreath Dragon
Sorceries (12)
4x Mizzium Mortars
3x Mwonvuli Acid-Moss
1x Primal Command
4x Stone Rain
2x Beast Within
Planeswalkers (1)
1x Chandra, Flamecaller
Enchantments (8)
4x Blood Moon
4x Utopia Sprawl
Land (21)
9x Forest
1x Mountain
1x Cinder Glade
2x Stomping Ground
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
1x Thragtusk
2x Kitchen Finks
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
3x Anger of the Gods
1x Creeping Corrosion
2x Crumble to Dust
1x Primeval Light
2x Destructive Revelry
2x Relic of Progenitus
Primeval Light is a new addition to my sideboard. I noticed a rise in enchantment strategies recently, and while Back to Nature is more mana efficient, I don't want to run the risk of losing Moon and Sprawl.
I've managed to knock BoP down to 1x in my list, with 21 lands. I might try this 22 lands, 0 BoP idea.
A word of warning. While I am very pro Goblin Dark-Dwellers (I can't get over how good this card has been to me), I am fully aware that it is definitely a build around card. Don't just add it to your list, look over your list and see if it's worth adding. If you feel there's not enough targets for its etb effect, either don't add it, or edited your spells for it to use. Also, it doesn't grant flashback, so you can't pay for X on cards like Bonfire of the Damned, nor can you pay alternative costs like the Overload cost of Mizzium Mortars. You can, however, pay additional costs like Shattering Spree's Replicate.
Grishoalbrand:
2-1 win, though this was the pilot's first time playing the deck.
Game 1 I destroyed his only basic Swamp on turn 2, Moon on turn 3, destroyed his only basic island on turn 4, he misused his only Manamorphose to return the Borborygmos Enraged he'd looted earlier. I proceeded to win on 2 life by swinging with my beat sticks and keeping his land count low to reduce the chances of him playing Through the Breach.
Game 2 he managed to cast Through the Breach to get a Worldspine Wurm out. I needed to topdeck a Mizzium Mortars to Overload it before using Inferno Titan's 3 damage attack trigger to kill the Wurm tokens, but topped a land instead.
Game 3 I hit all the necessary cards on curve to get an easy win.
Jund:
2-0 Win. The guy was trying out Grim Flayer in his list, but claims he didn't like it because each time he got the damage trigger, he wanted to keep each card it revealed.
Game 1 I hit a turn two Moon and after destroying his green and black basics, I proceeded to win with two Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
Game 2 I didn't see a Moon, but had enough land destruction to deny him access to one colour. Won via superior beat sticks.
Dubious Challenge
2-1 win. This was actually an interesting matchup as the deck was based heavily on a design I did that has the potential for a turn two Emrakul, the Aeons Torn Thanks to a similar mana dorks set to us. After showing it to my friend, he ordered the cards. So I kind of knew what to expect.
Game 1 I kept him off green long enough to beat him with a Goblin, an Obstinate Baloth, and a Stormbreath Dragon.
Game 2 he managed to get an Emrakul off See the Unwritten, which is a backup Challenge.
Game 3 was close. I missed a few early land drops, he used Flickerwisp on my Sprawled land, I destroyed his Sprawled land, etc. I managed to stablise before he could Challenge me and managed to win with a Titan, a Dragon and a Goblin despite him hard casting Wurmcoil Engine.