Depends largely on the matchup and / or opening hand. Ideally you want to go land Elf on turn one, to have access to four mana on turn two, and six mana on turn three (turn three Titan is awesome). But if you're sure they can kill the Elf on their turn, land Sprawl isn't a bad choice as you'll likely have three mana on turn two for Moon or Rain, which is one of our greatest plays.
Some people like it and play it as a 1 of because if it's synergy with Birds. I personally haven't tried it because it's ability is meaningless with a Moon out, and Moon is one of our best plays in most games, so we often mulligan to get it, especially in game one if we know what the opponent is playing.
I only get to play my list about evert fortnight (small group, we cycle formats weekly), but I'll give match reports if / when I face off against tier decks.
I need help with U/W/X control, discard heavy strategies, and death and taxes.
I don't know if it's just pure luck on my part or the way I play the game, but these strategies, while annoying, have never been a problem for me. I can tell you how I generally board against these types. Take out what is most likely to be dead cards (often creature removal) and bring in more threat that have to be answered, starting with the lowest mana cost creatures and working up until you've filled all the creature removal gaps. Then while playing, play extremely aggressive (something is bound to swing once or twice), and / or bait out the counters and removal. The exception here is if you have access to stuff they can't answer (maybe because of indestructible, protection, etc.) or some cards that wrecks their win condition (enchantment / artifact removal, etc.), which takes priority over the Aggro plan.
Discard strategies tend to go into topdecking. If you board properly, you can top deck pretty well. Cards with Flashback (or similar) and cards that let you reuse cards in the graveyard (like Goblin Dark-Dwellers) help you get value out of the discarded cards.
Against Death and Taxes, often the taxes are creature based, so your sweepers will go a long way.
I personally haven't had the chance, but I know a few people here certainly have and I've heard little to no complaint about it. It does come down to what slot you want to allocate it to. We have a limited amount of room for the customisation. Mote than most decks, but still limited.
I honestly can't get on board with running Kessig Wolf Run. You'll basically never get to use it since in 90% of the matchups, you want blood moon T2. I can't say it's a card I ever felt "Geez, if only I had KWR right now!".
Why are lists still running it? I'd much rather have a forest. There's an awful lot of RR in your list. Spreading seas wrecks you pretty hard if your opponent knows what they are doing. Wouldn't the KWR be better off as a mountain?
I saw the problem of Kessig Wolf Run and Blood Moon from word go, so I didn't even bother including it. I personally feel that with Utopia Sprawl on red, and 8 fetches, 1 Mountain, 2 Stomping Ground, and 1 Cinder Glade is enough to get all the R required.
Personally I didn't think Hazoret was good enough. 5/4 for 4 is not great stats. Path easily takes it out (and it's played in basically every deck that isn't GDS so don't know why you'd think there are less). In my experience, it just doesn't impact the board enough to warrant a slot.
I tested Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable before. I hated Hazoret every time I saw it. Purposely playing cards at inopportune times or discarding them for the 2 damage just so it can attack / block did not feel good (especially since it cost 3 more mana per card discarded).
Rhonas was much better as all the other threats kept it online, some of which are immune to common removal. And it can supply trample when needed, which Kessig Wolf Run could, but Rhonas does it regardless of if Blood Moon is out or not. Definitely worth at least 1 slot in the deck.
cdbowlin: There are two things that are problematic for the deck: Enchantments and burn. Burn can be beat pretty easily with resolving a Trinishipere on T2. You can then just get a head of them and overpower them.
Enchantments are another issue and that's why the SB needs to change a bit to be able to adapt to that. Run Destructive Revelry instead of Grudges.
Depending on the amount of lifegain cards you have in the 75 (Primal Command, Thragtusk, Kitchen Finks, etc), while still a tough match, Burn doesn't seem to be that bad. I still keep Moons in against them as it shuts off the splash colours (and thus 4+ cards are made dead) and any utility lands. Trinisphere is still good against them.
Enchantment hate is something the sideboard needs. There's a rise in enchantment strategies, and we are in green. The problem is that we need to be cautious because some of ours are important to keep around (Moon and Sprawl).
I've actually seen a Grove of the Burnwillows kill a Death's Shadow. The player kept Grove in hand, opting to play other lands / no lands (as he didn't really need the extra mana), then the opponent dropped DS as a 1/1 because he had to block a potentially lethal, single swing.
This feels like you'll probably only catch the opponent once with DS being a 1/1. Still funny when it happens though
I've been wanting to contribute to this thread for a while and now finally got around to it.
On Trinisphere: I play 3 in the board. The card definitely comes in vs burn as they ideally want to see the least amount of lands possible. Blowing up one or two of their lands will usually lead to an easy victory. There is no single spell in their deck they can cast for less than 3 mana. And and 3 mana bolt is way worse than 1 mana.
On birds of paradise: I've now cut birds entirely. It was by far and away the worst card in the deck. At least arbor elf can attack (and will generally generate way more mana). Having 8 accelerants seems sufficient in my experience.
In the PPTQ last weekend I went 4-2 losing to E-Tron (!??! G3 he mulled to 4 - me to 5 - and won through both a T2 stone rain and a T3 blood moon by casting THREE smashers and...all is dust. Ya he got there. Somehow) and Fish. Fish being the matchup that felt fairly unwinnable. Opponent played 4 gut shot side board. Wrecked my early game big time. I also played against Mono White pillow fort, and this seems to be gaining popularity (it is quite good against a number of opponents but quite bad vs Tron). Having zero ways to permanently deal with things like Runed Halo etc was a big issue.
On Hazoret: I hated the card all day long. Sideboarded it out every time. It's just too slow and dies too easily. Not worth the slot.
The deck is particularly well placed in my opinion and should be able to continue performing well.
The deck's biggest issue if you don't close out quickly is card advantage. Tracker/Courser/Thragtusk/Garruk/Chandra all provide that. Staying low to the ground (3-5 mana) gives the deck explosive turns that are essentially haymakers as soon as T2. Not many decks can deal with both Blood Moon AND getting their lands blown up.
One issue I've come across though is Spreading Seas. This card will hit your forest with utopia sprawls or your red sources. Which will greatly diminish your ability to deploy your threats in a timely fashion. Currently, the deck contains no way of dealing with enchantments, which I am starting to think is a mistake. Beast within is an answer, but I think the cost is too high. The sideboard is already stretched pretty thin so I don't really know how to solve this problem yet.
The more I think about the competitive meta, the more I'm thinking of dropping 1 Moon to main 1 Trini (when I eventually get around to ordering a set).
In theory, mostly because of Moons and LD, we should have it good against most Tron lists, but I've seen them be problematic too because of All is Dust and Oblivion Stone. I've also seen a genera increase in number of basic lands (including Wastes in Eldrazi lists) as Moon seems to be seeing more play in other decks. I blame Sun and Moon.
I've been testing a 1-of Shaman of the Great Hunt in my list and liking it so far. It's a cheap hasty threat that grows and can draw cards if you're out of gas or deadlocked on board. Sometimes a little win-more but it can be good to keep the tide of the game in your favor. Haven't gotten enough games in to give a definitive yes/no on it but it's a spicy one.
RE: Trinisphere, I have 3 in my board and sideboard them in pretty liberally, especially on the play. I bring them in against storm, cheerios, elves, ad naus, burn, 8rack, ds on the play, ancestral visions decks on the play, affinity, any deck that abuses cascade. Lots of decks. T2 Trinisphere is brutal against most decks, and nigh unbeatable if you follow it up with LD on t3+
Keep us posted on the performance of Shaman of the Great Hunt, looks like something worth adding to the utility list.
Am I the only one that plays against Grishoalbrand? Every time I see a list of things Trini hates on, Grishoalbrand isn't in the list.
Played in a PPTQ yesterday. I have only played Ponza for 3 tournaments. I've updated my list and yesterday was the first time I played it. I finished 4-2 and placed 11th out of 38.
R1: Bant Eldrazi 2-1
Mizzium Mortars was the MVP in G1 via overload. He just played Displacer and got wiped along TKS. I cruised with a Titan for the win. I was overwhelmed in G2 by 2 Displacers. I initially thought I destroyed the wrong land when I destroyed an Eldrazi Temple vs a Plains but realized it didn't matter as he will still be able to cast the 2nd Displacer. Land destruction was consistent in G3 so he was not able to recover. Blood Moon did not see play.
R2: Suicide Zoo 1-2
I had a misplay in G1 when I could've casted Blood Moon so he wouldn't be able to use Tribal Flames for 5 to finish me off. This is a new match up to me. I was lucky in G2 that he had to go down on life and was able to cast Molten Rain and Bolt for the win. I got mana flooded in G3 and was not able to recover.
R3: DnT 2-0
Easy G1 as he mulligan to 5. He only had one land and was not able to recover as I followed it up with a Blood Moon. G2 was a bit more grindy as he was able to cast Thalia and got value from Thraben Inspector via Flickerwisp. I just ramped up thanks to Acid Moss and played Titan to kill Thalia and Leonin Arbiter. It went downhill for him from then on as there was a Blood Moon in play and I killed his remaining creatures via Titan trigger.
R4: Mardu Midrange 1-2
Perfect game for me in G1 where we attack the opponent's land base then land our threat. I have no idea how to sideboard against him. He was afraid of Blood Moon so he fetched for basics. Although a powerful strategy I didn't forego with that approach as I aimed to destroy his lands. Unfortunately, I got mana flooded. Same thing happened in G3.
R5: 8Rack 2-1
I haven't seen his deck so I was in a surprise when he landed a Swamp and cast IOK on his first turn. T2 made the confirmation as he landed another Swamp. I quickly scooped when he landed Ensnaring Bridge. I could've grinded it out as I have Bolts and Chandra but my chances of winning are slim so I've decided to proceed to the next game. I saw the constant problem of his deck in G2 where both players go to top deck mode. To be fair to him he has Bobs in his deck but he was not able to take advantage of them as it got killed the minute it hits play. Not sure if he was able to cast Bridge. G3 came down to another top deck game as he was looking for Liliana of the Veil while turtling behind 2 Bridges. I had a Titan, Avalanche Riders and a couple of Elves. The Elves were able to chip his life away as he had one card in his hand. It was a Bridge but he didn't cast until the late turns although he had lots of land in play. Maybe for fear of artifact removal but if I had artifact removal I would've casted it to destroy the initial Bridge so I can attack with my Titan. We were both anxious. I fortunately top decked an Ancient Grudge destroying his Bridges and swing for lethal.
R6 Boros Burn 2-0
Both games went the same way. Destroy his lands early then attack with my creatures.
I was satisfied with my performance as 8 land destruction effects are not enough for me and preferred with the list below. I'm still thinking of adding a 5th set of land destruction spells, either Fulminator Mages, Creeping Mold or Demolish. But that means I either drop the Blood Moons and another card or up my card count to 64. BTW, I failed to remove the Crumble to Dust hence the 61 card list. My sideboard is out of place, I had to refine it. My 4th Wooded Foothills was with my friend so I had to use a Verdant Catacombs. Lastly, I will upgrade Chandra, Pyromaster to Chandra, Torch of Defiance once I have the budget.
Congrats on the results. Glad to see someone else who uses Mizzium Mortars over Bonfire of the Damned. I really don't like the randomness of the latter, nor it's reliance on targeting the opponent (mostly because of Leyline of Sanctity)
I must admit, I haven't seen Avalanche Riders in a list before. Can't say I like paying its Echo and losing a creature I spent 4 mana on feels like a waste. You're also a lot higher on LD cards than most lists, and if you're seriously looking at another set of LD, I recommend a few Goblin Dark-Dwellers as it can recast not only Stone Rain and Molten Rain for the LD effect you want, but also Mizzium Mortars on a single creatures (sadly no Overload) and Lightning Bolt, but also Ancient Grudge (saving you mana while giving you a threat), Nature's Claim, Sudden Shock and Anger of the Gods from sideboard.
Hello, I have been playing Ponza for a little while and I have been testing and and wondering what other peoples thoughts on Ramunap Excavator are. I have been playing it as a card advantage engine akin to Courser of Kruphix some lists have played with, also thinning the deck by recurring fetches each turn to improve later game top decks once our hand has been emptied.
I have only tested it a few times as it has only been released a short while obviously but I am pretty happy with how it has been performing so far.
It makes one fetch hands with a couple dorks keepable in my experience as you get to drop it turn three and re-play your land. Bolt isn't a huge factor in the current meta, I could see it being a lot worse if it were. Also worst case scenario it effectively cantrips as you get to drop it, re play a land from the yard before it gets removed.
I have been testing it as a 2 of and also testing 2 of ghost quarter (replacing kessig wolf run & a stomping ground) but I haven't been very happy with the GQ's. Most of the time they are just mountains, I feel on paper they are probably only really good against decks that are already weak to blood moon too.
Another player from my LGS suggested running prime time in the 6 drop slot as it thins the deck and leads to better end game top decks but without the synergy such as in the amulet or valakut decks I feel like I would rather just kill my opponent with an Inferno Titan/Stormbreath Dragon/Wurmcoil Engine/etc but getting this sort of effect on a 3 drop feels a lot better.
Thoughts?
Ramunap Excavator and Crucible of Worlds only really work well with fetches and cards like Ghost Quarter, which means Crucible and Excavator become a lot worse when Blood Moon is out. I can see Crucible / Excavator + GQ working in a Moonless build (and I may just tinker with a design for this). What makes Courser of Kruphix good is the ability to manipulate your draws by playing the land on top instead of the one in hand. The lifegain and 4 toughness doesn't hurt either.
The extra damage Inferno Titan does is more important to us than fetching more lands. We have enough ramp in our dorks.
I think the removal we use depends on a number of factors:
1) The meta you're playing in.
2) How willing you are to lose your creature dorks to your own sweepers.
3) How important spot removal is in your build.
Personally, as I've said multiple times, Mizzium Mortars is my mainboard removal of choice. In addition to the interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, 4 damage is enough in most of the match ups I have at my LGS. And Mortars doubles as both spot removal and a sweeper.
Reading past few pages on the GDD lists I'm pretty interested in trying as I generally love value and recursion. Also liked the idea of a playset of the mortars as I always felt weird drawing the Bonfire as well. Curious to see list you're currently running (or your core) as sounds like you're running Titan also which seems other GDD players are not. I also am waiting for a few Huntmaster of the Fells to try out, not sure if they are still good in GDD shell or not.
GR Ponza list topped the scg classic in Atlanta today. The list looks a little out dated tho compared to the past month or so of lists I've seen you guys posting.
That's terrible beauty of Ponza, even the "traditional" list is powerful enough to both compete and win
I've tested Moonless Ponza before. While it can work, it feels like you need to apply more pressure than when running Moon, ie less breathing room.
As for the "no Bonfire" thing, I've been against Bonfire since I first sleaved up Ponza. I really don't like how we can't control when to Miracle it (the only time it's good) nor how much mana you need to pump into it when it's in your hand. I prefer Mizzium Mortars both because of having more control over what I can do with the card and because of its interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
I've noticed a lot of you like Hazoret the Fervent. When I tested it, I didn't like it. Is it maybe because of how differently I pilot the deck? I don't often go below 2 cards in hand with holding onto Mortars, Goblins, and / or Beast Within to use on stuff my creatures can't muscle through. No use in Overloading Mortars if Titan is keeping the board clean, and other cases like that.
You're playing 3 Goblin Dark-Dwellers, so why Bonfire of the Damned over Mizzium Mortars? Sure, Mizzium doesn't hit the face, but it does give more options for the Goblin. Plus, Leyline of Sanctity doesn't stop Mortars like it can Bonfire.
I only get to play my list about evert fortnight (small group, we cycle formats weekly), but I'll give match reports if / when I face off against tier decks.
Discard strategies tend to go into topdecking. If you board properly, you can top deck pretty well. Cards with Flashback (or similar) and cards that let you reuse cards in the graveyard (like Goblin Dark-Dwellers) help you get value out of the discarded cards.
Against Death and Taxes, often the taxes are creature based, so your sweepers will go a long way.
I personally haven't had the chance, but I know a few people here certainly have and I've heard little to no complaint about it. It does come down to what slot you want to allocate it to. We have a limited amount of room for the customisation. Mote than most decks, but still limited.
I tested Hazoret the Fervent and Rhonas the Indomitable before. I hated Hazoret every time I saw it. Purposely playing cards at inopportune times or discarding them for the 2 damage just so it can attack / block did not feel good (especially since it cost 3 more mana per card discarded).
Rhonas was much better as all the other threats kept it online, some of which are immune to common removal. And it can supply trample when needed, which Kessig Wolf Run could, but Rhonas does it regardless of if Blood Moon is out or not. Definitely worth at least 1 slot in the deck.
Depending on the amount of lifegain cards you have in the 75 (Primal Command, Thragtusk, Kitchen Finks, etc), while still a tough match, Burn doesn't seem to be that bad. I still keep Moons in against them as it shuts off the splash colours (and thus 4+ cards are made dead) and any utility lands. Trinisphere is still good against them.
Enchantment hate is something the sideboard needs. There's a rise in enchantment strategies, and we are in green. The problem is that we need to be cautious because some of ours are important to keep around (Moon and Sprawl).
This feels like you'll probably only catch the opponent once with DS being a 1/1. Still funny when it happens though
In theory, mostly because of Moons and LD, we should have it good against most Tron lists, but I've seen them be problematic too because of All is Dust and Oblivion Stone. I've also seen a genera increase in number of basic lands (including Wastes in Eldrazi lists) as Moon seems to be seeing more play in other decks. I blame Sun and Moon.
As for the lack of enchantment hate, it's because of the increase of enchantment prison decks, including the new Solemnity + Phyrexian Unlife lock, that I've swapped out Ancient Grudge for Destructive Revelry and worked in a Primeval Light into my sideboard. I do have the bonus of reusing Revelry with the 3 mainboard Goblin Dark-Dwellers I run.
Am I the only one that plays against Grishoalbrand? Every time I see a list of things Trini hates on, Grishoalbrand isn't in the list.
Congrats on the results. Glad to see someone else who uses Mizzium Mortars over Bonfire of the Damned. I really don't like the randomness of the latter, nor it's reliance on targeting the opponent (mostly because of Leyline of Sanctity)
I must admit, I haven't seen Avalanche Riders in a list before. Can't say I like paying its Echo and losing a creature I spent 4 mana on feels like a waste. You're also a lot higher on LD cards than most lists, and if you're seriously looking at another set of LD, I recommend a few Goblin Dark-Dwellers as it can recast not only Stone Rain and Molten Rain for the LD effect you want, but also Mizzium Mortars on a single creatures (sadly no Overload) and Lightning Bolt, but also Ancient Grudge (saving you mana while giving you a threat), Nature's Claim, Sudden Shock and Anger of the Gods from sideboard.
The extra damage Inferno Titan does is more important to us than fetching more lands. We have enough ramp in our dorks.
1) The meta you're playing in.
2) How willing you are to lose your creature dorks to your own sweepers.
3) How important spot removal is in your build.
Personally, as I've said multiple times, Mizzium Mortars is my mainboard removal of choice. In addition to the interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers, 4 damage is enough in most of the match ups I have at my LGS. And Mortars doubles as both spot removal and a sweeper.
On my phone and can't use the fancy decklist, so I'll just post a link to my deck:
http://www.mtgvault.com/dedwards/decks/ponza-mana-denied/
This is the list I edit to match my current list.
That's terrible beauty of Ponza, even the "traditional" list is powerful enough to both compete and win
As for the "no Bonfire" thing, I've been against Bonfire since I first sleaved up Ponza. I really don't like how we can't control when to Miracle it (the only time it's good) nor how much mana you need to pump into it when it's in your hand. I prefer Mizzium Mortars both because of having more control over what I can do with the card and because of its interaction with Goblin Dark-Dwellers.
I've noticed a lot of you like Hazoret the Fervent. When I tested it, I didn't like it. Is it maybe because of how differently I pilot the deck? I don't often go below 2 cards in hand with holding onto Mortars, Goblins, and / or Beast Within to use on stuff my creatures can't muscle through. No use in Overloading Mortars if Titan is keeping the board clean, and other cases like that.