Stinkweed Imp + Tortured Existence is an absolute powerhouse, allowing us to fuel the graveyard for repeated Gurmag Anglers and essentially allowing us to dig 5 deep every turn for more threats. We can play them all at instant speed using our madness effects, and gain huge amounts of psuedo card advantage to win via attrition. We can hardcast Stinkweed Imp early and gum up the board, striking down threats with our burn suite, control the game, and hopefully pull the boardstate into a grindy topdeck situation, where we have an incredible advantage.
Card i've been highly considering is Rummaging Goblin, we can use the effect to cantrip all our Madness Cards for free, and im thinking of cutting some early game enablers for it and giving up on t2 Bloodmad.
Been playing this online a lot. I get some sort of cathartic high off of it, like playing solitare or something. Its relaxing.
Anyways, been experimenting with Time Sieve in a mostly combo build. It feels like a little too much mana for the initial cost, but 5 sources and just thopter sword in play means you can topdeck it or whir and go usually infinite. I'll probably be cutting it in the end, feels too hard to get to 5 sources.
So, didnt know this thread existed, but managed to come up with a list on my own last night after a few hours whacking away at a H-Geo Calculator and was referred here. Maybe a fresh perspective could provide something. Here's what came of the math and a few hours of tinkering against friends:
This mana base probably needs work, and my sideboard plan is basically just Blood Moon on 2.
Im interested to see a general lack of experimentation with Goblin Gathering here. I find it's quite relevant while going off, as it has the potential to be a mana positive draw 3-5. A copy or two often ends up in the yard before a cast as well, with Commune and Faithless Looting (Though i've since cut looting). As mentioned, I've done a little math on the fizzle-combo ratio. This list maintains a very high lethality rate, and has a high chance to win on the spot with the engine and one generator, even on an otherwise empty hand. (For reference the averages I used were 4 tokens for EtW, and 3 for GG).
A lot of these lists seem to be lacking the fuel to go the distance on very little. They lack the density of card advantage and mana positivity needed to keep a minimal resource combo realistic. Im obviously new to the archetype, but this seems like a mistake. Theoretically 4 Copies of Noxious Revival(perhaps over Manamorphose? my weakest card by far in testing) could allow us access to 20 cards that net 3 for 1, making up a third of our deck, and reducing the possibility of a fizzle after a successful first cast to almost nothing.
I should mention that my opinions around this are based very much from a Storm-ish point of view, and combo execution consistency is the top priority in mind. Whether these inclinations are right or not, I'm unsure. I think as a concept this deck has a strictly weaker gameplan in game 1 than Gifts Storm. But, Its super fun, and the main is rather budget friendly at the moment outside of the manabase. I'd love to see it go somewhere.
Id say 80% of games are won by GoST. This build is mostly tailored to slamming him with an unblockable enabler as soon as possible, and protecting him with Selfless Spirit, or clearing blockers with Path if need be. I im still on the fence about how main mainboard Tallowisps im running, and every 10 games it ends up going up to 4 or down to 3, lol.
Ghostly Prison has been the main sideboard allstar so far.
Im also considering testing a build where I pull all my tron sideboard pieces and shift them to other matchups and just sort of concede that Tron is a steep climb for this deck. Unsure yet.
Some other random thoughts;
- Rattlechains is the best card in the deck in all honesty
- After much testing, i think the enchantment count should be at or below 5.
- Serum Visions is the best turn 1 play you can have
- Path should be boarded out in go wide matchups for Ghostly Prison and more lifegain, as counter intuitive as that might sound.
- Disrupting Shoalsteals games.
- Moorland Haunt can occasionally win games by itself
Mainboard Thalia is insane in this meta, don't miss out even if you are doing spells. You can also try a Kazandu Blademaster and Hada Freeblade package to replace your soldier of the pantheon for occasional explosive starts and better creature quality. Grand Abolisher is always a great sideboard tech for humans too
The only pirate creature powerful enough for modern is the freebooter. You have no support elsewhere outside of generic tribal aggro enablers like Vial and Cavern. You're literally trying to play a standard deck in modern, just with better removal and lands.
If you want an aggro deck with good disruption... Why not just play a BW or Eldrazi variant of taxes? If you want a fast synergistic tribal deck, why not play Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, or even Vampires or Allies? If you want an interactive, disruptive tribal aggro deck, why not play 5c Humans?
Pirates arent as fast as other tribal decks, arent as disruptive, arent as reliable, and have generally lower creature quality/synergy. Why bother?
Absolutely, its the best turn 1 play the deck can lay down.
They offer lots of tricks, messing with combat math and allowing you to do some sneaky saves with Kabira Evangel.
They can even act as a Reckless Bushwhacker Enabler in a pinch if youre tight on the curve
Blood Moon cripples all variants of this deck due to its reliance on a nonbasic manabase. Definitely need 6+ fetches for green if your out is Natural State
Another option would be to play some of the many white two drops that can be sac'd to destroy enchantments or artifacts, or do it as they enter.
If you really wanna get meta, Manamorphose is hilarious in the board if you can pull it off
EDIT: There are like 4+ decks that run blood moon in the board that are in the meta, as well as Sun/Moon and Skred Red in the main. Definitely worth adjusting your mana base to combat it
Below is what im currently running to great success at my LGS. I havent fogured out if i want to call it 8whack or 12whack yet, haha. This build is also capable of a turn 3 win, but can goldfish turn 5 with multiple sources of disruption.
To preface, ive been trying to make allies work in modern since before the printing of CoCo. Ive tried builds with both the excavator and the druid, and havent seen huge success with the exception of khans era scales CoCo, and recently with the printing of Unclaimed Territory and Ally Encampment finally allowing us to build 4 and 5 color decks. The issue in the past has always been a lack of access to redundancy, especially access to blue for the shapeshifter, due to stricter manabases. The combining of a Naya-esque build with supporting cards from blue and the brigand creates a best of both worlds deal that i think is the ideal environment for Aggro based allies to thrive.
My reasoning for disliking the druid and the excavator is that when you go up against any deck with early diusruption, you often have trouble "staying wide" with push, path, terminate etc. These are both creatures that by themselves have no attacking power, and only impact the boardstate if you already control 2-3 other allies. Cards like Oran-Rief and Reckless Bushwhacker create an immediate situation where you have a short or long term damage threat that must be dealt with. Basically, these cards pressure your opponents life total and can do so very early, whereas excavator and the druid pose no threat by themselves. Smart opponents will never throw removal or hand disruption at your excavator, because alone the card is useless. This leaves them free to concentrate on your game winning cards like Battlesinger and other damage dealers.
EDIT: I do think excavator is a valid option against certain matchups. Skred Red, 8rack, and Lantern Control become much easier. But I think overall the card loses some percentage points, and id either prefer it in the sideboard as a cheaply costed Tuktuk Scrapper substitute, or find a different way to exploit it. Maybe blink effects would be your friend here.
Harabaz Druid on the other hand could find a home in a CoCo/Hardened Scales setup with available mana sinks such as Mirror Entity, but in a lot of builds you dont have the card advantage to use the Druid to its full power. Maybe even some Sea Gate Loremaster cheese? Im unsure where this cards full potential lies.
@ashtangijimmy
If I had continued down the Reflecting Pool route, i might have spent more time testing CoCo, but i found just jamming 38 creatures to be more consistent.
Just seems less consistent and less explosive than a 5 color 8whack-esque build running 12 1cmc beaters and Akoum/Reckless.
Ive tinkered with Harabaz Druid and Halimar Excavator in the past, but the problem is that theyre 2cmc do nothing cards by themselves. Expedition Envoy is already annoying enough to have to play due to our lack of card quality in 1 drops, and filling the deck with 8 more creatures that dont impact the board by themselves is rough.
I dont think your build is bad per-say, i just think as a combo deck reliant on its explosivity its less competetive than a naya or 5color build with their higher creature quality and grinding power. I do however like the incorporation of CoCo, which gives the deck unexpected lategame gas. (though i personally prefer spell-less versions with 36+ creatures). Having solid sideboard castables is nice too, though i think a good sideboard can be accomplished even with a zigguraut mana base.
After 10 test games id say its probably better than scales or gw human hybrid builds, but i'll be sticking with my 5c 8whack build.
4 Bloodmad Vampire
4 Reckless Wurm
2 Gurmag Angler
Value Engine
4 Tortured Existence
4 Grave Scrabbler
2 Stinkweed Imp
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Fiery Temper
3 Lightning Axe
1 Flame Jab
Cheap Enablers
4 Insolent Neonate
3 Putrid Imp
1 Kris Mage
4 Rakdos Carnarium
1 Radiant Fountain
8 Swamp
7 Mountain
Stinkweed Imp + Tortured Existence is an absolute powerhouse, allowing us to fuel the graveyard for repeated Gurmag Anglers and essentially allowing us to dig 5 deep every turn for more threats. We can play them all at instant speed using our madness effects, and gain huge amounts of psuedo card advantage to win via attrition. We can hardcast Stinkweed Imp early and gum up the board, striking down threats with our burn suite, control the game, and hopefully pull the boardstate into a grindy topdeck situation, where we have an incredible advantage.
Card i've been highly considering is Rummaging Goblin, we can use the effect to cantrip all our Madness Cards for free, and im thinking of cutting some early game enablers for it and giving up on t2 Bloodmad.
- ETB for creatures
- Dies
Thopter Foundry
Sly Requisitioner
Could see a cute ThopterSword Control that played the enchant, or some wierd Cheerios mana rock ramp thing
4 Thopter Foundry
4 Sword of the Meek
4 Grinding Station
1 Time Sieve
4 Chromatic Star
4 Mox Opal
2 Welding Jar
4 Scrap Trawler
4 Sly Requisitioner
4 Memnite
- 8 Instant/Sorcery -
4 Whir of Invention
4 Ancient Stirrings
- 17 Land -
3 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
4 Spire of Industry
4 Botanical Sanctum
3 Glimmervoid
1 Academy Ruins
Been playing this online a lot. I get some sort of cathartic high off of it, like playing solitare or something. Its relaxing.
Anyways, been experimenting with Time Sieve in a mostly combo build. It feels like a little too much mana for the initial cost, but 5 sources and just thopter sword in play means you can topdeck it or whir and go usually infinite. I'll probably be cutting it in the end, feels too hard to get to 5 sources.
4 Skirk Prospector
4 Fecundity
Digging/Win
4 Commune with the Gods
2 Goblin Bushwhacker
Cycling
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Goblin Gathering
4 Hordeling Outburst
4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Manamorphose
4 Infernal Plunge
Manabase
5 Mountain
4 Copperline Gorge
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Forest
4 Stomping Ground
4 Blood Moon
3 Cindervines
3 Postmortem Lunge
1 Grapeshot
This mana base probably needs work, and my sideboard plan is basically just Blood Moon on 2.
Im interested to see a general lack of experimentation with Goblin Gathering here. I find it's quite relevant while going off, as it has the potential to be a mana positive draw 3-5. A copy or two often ends up in the yard before a cast as well, with Commune and Faithless Looting (Though i've since cut looting). As mentioned, I've done a little math on the fizzle-combo ratio. This list maintains a very high lethality rate, and has a high chance to win on the spot with the engine and one generator, even on an otherwise empty hand. (For reference the averages I used were 4 tokens for EtW, and 3 for GG).
A lot of these lists seem to be lacking the fuel to go the distance on very little. They lack the density of card advantage and mana positivity needed to keep a minimal resource combo realistic. Im obviously new to the archetype, but this seems like a mistake. Theoretically 4 Copies of Noxious Revival(perhaps over Manamorphose? my weakest card by far in testing) could allow us access to 20 cards that net 3 for 1, making up a third of our deck, and reducing the possibility of a fizzle after a successful first cast to almost nothing.
I should mention that my opinions around this are based very much from a Storm-ish point of view, and combo execution consistency is the top priority in mind. Whether these inclinations are right or not, I'm unsure. I think as a concept this deck has a strictly weaker gameplan in game 1 than Gifts Storm. But, Its super fun, and the main is rather budget friendly at the moment outside of the manabase. I'd love to see it go somewhere.
Heres what my build has evolved into for now. Pretty standard stuff, im mostly just poking at percentage points now.
// 25 Creature
3 Tallowisp
4 Geist of Saint Traft
4 Mausoleum Wanderer
4 Rattlechains
4 Spell Queller
3 Drogskol Captain
3 Selfless Spirit
// 3 Enchantment
2 Steel of the Godhead
1 Aqueous Form
// 7 Instant
4 Disrupting Shoal
3 Path to Exile
// 21 Land
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Plains
5 Island
1 Eiganjo Castle
4 Flooded Strand
1 Moorland Haunt
3 Cavern of Souls
4 Serum Visions
// 2 Artifact
2 Pithing Needle
// 1 Creature
1 Tallowisp
// 6 Enchantment
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stony Silence
2 Ghostly Prison
// 6 Instant
3 Ceremonious Rejection
2 Disenchant
1 Path to Exile
Id say 80% of games are won by GoST. This build is mostly tailored to slamming him with an unblockable enabler as soon as possible, and protecting him with Selfless Spirit, or clearing blockers with Path if need be. I im still on the fence about how main mainboard Tallowisps im running, and every 10 games it ends up going up to 4 or down to 3, lol.
Ghostly Prison has been the main sideboard allstar so far.
Im also considering testing a build where I pull all my tron sideboard pieces and shift them to other matchups and just sort of concede that Tron is a steep climb for this deck. Unsure yet.
Some other random thoughts;
- Rattlechains is the best card in the deck in all honesty
- After much testing, i think the enchantment count should be at or below 5.
- Serum Visions is the best turn 1 play you can have
- Path should be boarded out in go wide matchups for Ghostly Prison and more lifegain, as counter intuitive as that might sound.
- Disrupting Shoal steals games.
- Moorland Haunt can occasionally win games by itself
If you want an aggro deck with good disruption... Why not just play a BW or Eldrazi variant of taxes? If you want a fast synergistic tribal deck, why not play Merfolk, Goblins, Elves, or even Vampires or Allies? If you want an interactive, disruptive tribal aggro deck, why not play 5c Humans?
Pirates arent as fast as other tribal decks, arent as disruptive, arent as reliable, and have generally lower creature quality/synergy. Why bother?
Nice job with BFZ and OGW wizards.
They offer lots of tricks, messing with combat math and allowing you to do some sneaky saves with Kabira Evangel.
They can even act as a Reckless Bushwhacker Enabler in a pinch if youre tight on the curve
Another option would be to play some of the many white two drops that can be sac'd to destroy enchantments or artifacts, or do it as they enter.
If you really wanna get meta, Manamorphose is hilarious in the board if you can pull it off
EDIT: There are like 4+ decks that run blood moon in the board that are in the meta, as well as Sun/Moon and Skred Red in the main. Definitely worth adjusting your mana base to combat it
Below is what im currently running to great success at my LGS. I havent fogured out if i want to call it 8whack or 12whack yet, haha. This build is also capable of a turn 3 win, but can goldfish turn 5 with multiple sources of disruption.
4 Aether Vial
Creature (38)
4 Kazandu Blademaster
4 Hada Freeblade
4 Oran-Rief Survivalist
4 Jwari Shapeshifter
4 Reckless Bushwhacker
4 Akoum Battlesinger
2 Bojuka Brigand / Firemantle Mage
4 Expedition Envoy
4 Kabira Evangel
4 Champion of the Parish
4 Unclaimed Territory
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Ally Encampment
4 Ancient Ziggurat
2 Plains
To preface, ive been trying to make allies work in modern since before the printing of CoCo. Ive tried builds with both the excavator and the druid, and havent seen huge success with the exception of khans era scales CoCo, and recently with the printing of Unclaimed Territory and Ally Encampment finally allowing us to build 4 and 5 color decks. The issue in the past has always been a lack of access to redundancy, especially access to blue for the shapeshifter, due to stricter manabases. The combining of a Naya-esque build with supporting cards from blue and the brigand creates a best of both worlds deal that i think is the ideal environment for Aggro based allies to thrive.
My reasoning for disliking the druid and the excavator is that when you go up against any deck with early diusruption, you often have trouble "staying wide" with push, path, terminate etc. These are both creatures that by themselves have no attacking power, and only impact the boardstate if you already control 2-3 other allies. Cards like Oran-Rief and Reckless Bushwhacker create an immediate situation where you have a short or long term damage threat that must be dealt with. Basically, these cards pressure your opponents life total and can do so very early, whereas excavator and the druid pose no threat by themselves. Smart opponents will never throw removal or hand disruption at your excavator, because alone the card is useless. This leaves them free to concentrate on your game winning cards like Battlesinger and other damage dealers.
EDIT: I do think excavator is a valid option against certain matchups. Skred Red, 8rack, and Lantern Control become much easier. But I think overall the card loses some percentage points, and id either prefer it in the sideboard as a cheaply costed Tuktuk Scrapper substitute, or find a different way to exploit it. Maybe blink effects would be your friend here.
Harabaz Druid on the other hand could find a home in a CoCo/Hardened Scales setup with available mana sinks such as Mirror Entity, but in a lot of builds you dont have the card advantage to use the Druid to its full power. Maybe even some Sea Gate Loremaster cheese? Im unsure where this cards full potential lies.
If I had continued down the Reflecting Pool route, i might have spent more time testing CoCo, but i found just jamming 38 creatures to be more consistent.
Ive tinkered with Harabaz Druid and Halimar Excavator in the past, but the problem is that theyre 2cmc do nothing cards by themselves. Expedition Envoy is already annoying enough to have to play due to our lack of card quality in 1 drops, and filling the deck with 8 more creatures that dont impact the board by themselves is rough.
I dont think your build is bad per-say, i just think as a combo deck reliant on its explosivity its less competetive than a naya or 5color build with their higher creature quality and grinding power. I do however like the incorporation of CoCo, which gives the deck unexpected lategame gas. (though i personally prefer spell-less versions with 36+ creatures). Having solid sideboard castables is nice too, though i think a good sideboard can be accomplished even with a zigguraut mana base.
After 10 test games id say its probably better than scales or gw human hybrid builds, but i'll be sticking with my 5c 8whack build.