Sometimes I think people wait for me to be gone to post things that demand my attention. Until I figure out how to be more in synch with everyone, I guess I'll just have to start stalking you all.
I formed that list and linked to it in the OP of the first round because I want everyone to be using the same criteria. It is not perfect, it is arbitrary; everyone should use it as law for this round.
I stand ready to justify every last distinction I made, and in lieu of evaluating each choice with discourse, I offer up a system that is fair simply because it is the same for everyone.
• Pseudofate's two submissions are still outstanding, and he has also specified that he will be unavailable due to technical issues. Do I hear a volunteer for that pair?
I feel the most appropriate place to post this is here, for no particular reason.*
I've picked through the available creature types and split them into three categories of distinction. Players expect certain things of a creature with a certain type. Gryphons should fly, Spiders should have reach, Flagbearers should have that obnoxious ability and Allies should work well with other allies.
A race reflects what a person or creature is. You are born into your race. In scientific terms, this could be a species, but considering we've had solifuges as insects and horseshoe crabs as crabs, as well as sundry cryptidae, a designer of cards shouldn't feel locked into a scientific breakdown as species. I've even seen arguments for all human cards getting the ape creature type. Race is what you are. Creatures that share a race should share the distinguishing morphological characteristics of that race.
A class reflects what a person or creature has learned and commonly does. It is the sum of occupational or accidental experience in a professional setting. Granted, most of these professions involve killing other people or things, so designers are limited to those classes that share the mindspace of occupations of the aggregate fantasy setting of Magic.
Ambiguous creature types sometimes act as either race or class, but often serve as neither. An illusion need not share morphological distinctions with other illusions, or even arise from similar sets of circumstances. Zombies and Mutants also act more as "modifiers" to creatures types. Finally, there are some creature types that just plain make no sense as either race or class (and I feel should thus be summarily removed from Magic, but I'll get to that later if I ever have clout in the big leagues).
With that preamble, here are what I consider the cut points for the three categories:
A lot of the ambiguous creature types are token-only types that shouldn't really appear on type lines (sand, prism, survivor). Others are holdovers from a freer era of creature type taxonomy (volver, monger, bringer, wall).
Many creature types still have baggage because of the players' mindspace about them, and should be approached with caution. I stuck Ally in the ambiguous category for this reason, as being an ally is certainly not a race, and each already has a class; bringing something new with him to the ally table.
This categorization is by no means absolute. I'm sure you could ask a bunch of different designers and get a bunch of different answers, and I'm interested to hear arguments for specific cases, as I fit each type in the three categories with varying levels of certainty.
Considering the breadth of the grand creature type update, I'm astonished to see such a remaining level of ambiguity in many of the types. Look no further than Norin the Wary not bearing the creature type "coward," or the mere continued existence of Brushwagg and some others, and you'll come to understand what I mean.
That the number of ambiguous creature types rivals classes in size betrays a continued free-wheeling attitude toward creature taxonomy.
All the same, I haven't seen a reference like this anywhere else around, and felt it should exist, so I went and made it.
*From above. I can't tell you why right now, but this whole tirade is plenty relevant, and is a bit of work I was going to have to do sooner or later anyway.
I hid the whole blasted thing in spoiler tags so as not to clog up the discussion thread.
Hoo that feels good.
Ever woken up to bright light and loud birdsong outside your window?
The last few pages of this thread make me want to roll back under the covers.
As far as I can tell from a cursory glance at the submissions and a reading and consideration of the first round, there is nothing at all wrong or in need of fixing. The challenges are not categorically, logically, technically, taxonomically or cryptozoographically impossible. The task is even more clever at further consideration than I had given credit for on my first reading, and has inspired me to some ideas for the direction the rest of this month may take.
So get ready for more fun of the exact kind and amount you may be experiencing right now.
Judges are forbidden from docking points from an entry for the sole reason of lacking a render.
Players are encouraged to make renders because it is cool and fun.
I'm shocked to see it down to a mere 461 cards. Happy Gilmore here is really happy about all his includes, and visibly agonizes over removing even one.
When we draft this cube (or do sealed or really any variant) the games always go long. Grindy stalemate builds upon grindy stalemate. Someone lets me draft every Nekrataal that ever was, and someone lets Happy Gilmore draft Rude Awakening, Masticore, and Plow Under. Whichever one of us gets the Volrath's Stronghold eventually breaks the stalemate. Every other card may as well be blanks that trade with each other. Very little in this cube has the power to break up stalemates, and plenty in it has the power to stall.
Some notes:
Why does red lack sweepers? In all the non-creature spells you have Rolling Earthquake as the only sweeper.
This is why people pick Rude Awakening so highly: it is unchecked. Have your spell run headlong into Volcanic Fallout or Sulfurous Blast and we're really cooking. We have a game, then.
I'd also like to see Shattering Spree in the list, as well as some of the more egregious color distinctions rectified and balanced (Kird Ape in the Multicolor category, for instance). Masticore needs more and better answers. And I don't mean the Keldon Vandals, that card must have been obsoleted a thousand times over by now. Ingot Chewer at the very least.
I know you're not going to listen to me any more in the forums than you would in life, but at the very least you should replace Puncture Blast with Yamabushi's Flame. Recursion is nutty in this cube and you don't have enough answers already. Y-Flame answers more than just Redcap and Finks.
Some comments/questions on my judging from Ice King...
Quote from "The Ice King" »
emkorial
Development
I am not even qutie sure how to grade this as i am not sure what rarity it is. I can make the assumption it is rare, but you'll be docked more in Polish. Overall, this card can find a home as a very playable plague win against any deck that runs a diffrent color than you. That being said, i think its too powerful. Wrath/Day of judgement's drawback was that it hit your creatures. Now you take the drawback away and change it into a muilticolor card and you get a pretty strong card here Spikey. Definitly playable, but even for this rapidly power creeping meta, it may not be broken.
7.5/10
Sorry, I'm coming from YmTC and in those game we never needed to post the rarity. Yes, it would be a rare.
Quote from "The Ice King" »
Bonus:
As much as i respect your opinion for going with your creation and not altering it for a bonus point, your still getting marked off. Also, -1 point, render or no, i still need to know the rarity of what im grading. 3/5
Bonus 2 was "Doesn't target anything", which mine doesn't, so I should get that one, right?
Just moving this where it belongs.
For my part, I can state that including the rarity is always important, worth 1 or more points, and sometimes leaving it off can get you disqualified. We evaluate cards based in part on whether the complexity and power is a good fit for the rarity.
Not too big a problem. Thank you for the advance notice.
First order of stalking, round brackets.
I formed that list and linked to it in the OP of the first round because I want everyone to be using the same criteria. It is not perfect, it is arbitrary; everyone should use it as law for this round.
I stand ready to justify every last distinction I made, and in lieu of evaluating each choice with discourse, I offer up a system that is fair simply because it is the same for everyone.
Everyone else, I shall presently go edit the Dec Round 1 OP with information similar to what Kenaron posted above.
You so hear.
EDIT:
Here, if you'll have it.
I've picked through the available creature types and split them into three categories of distinction. Players expect certain things of a creature with a certain type. Gryphons should fly, Spiders should have reach, Flagbearers should have that obnoxious ability and Allies should work well with other allies.
A race reflects what a person or creature is. You are born into your race. In scientific terms, this could be a species, but considering we've had solifuges as insects and horseshoe crabs as crabs, as well as sundry cryptidae, a designer of cards shouldn't feel locked into a scientific breakdown as species. I've even seen arguments for all human cards getting the ape creature type. Race is what you are. Creatures that share a race should share the distinguishing morphological characteristics of that race.
A class reflects what a person or creature has learned and commonly does. It is the sum of occupational or accidental experience in a professional setting. Granted, most of these professions involve killing other people or things, so designers are limited to those classes that share the mindspace of occupations of the aggregate fantasy setting of Magic.
Ambiguous creature types sometimes act as either race or class, but often serve as neither. An illusion need not share morphological distinctions with other illusions, or even arise from similar sets of circumstances. Zombies and Mutants also act more as "modifiers" to creatures types. Finally, there are some creature types that just plain make no sense as either race or class (and I feel should thus be summarily removed from Magic, but I'll get to that later if I ever have clout in the big leagues).
With that preamble, here are what I consider the cut points for the three categories:
Anteater
Antelope
Ape
Archon
Atog
Aurochs
Badger
Basilisk
Bat
Bear
Beast
Beeble
Bird
Blinkmoth
Boar
Brushwagg
Camarid
Camel
Caribou
Cat
Centaur
Cephalid
Chimera
Cockatrice
Construct
Crab
Crocodile
Cyclops
Dauthi
Demon
Devil
Djinn
Dragon
Drake
Dreadnought
Drone
Dryad
Dwarf
Efreet
Elemental
Elephant
Elf
Elk
Eye
Faerie
Ferret
Fish
Fox
Frog
Gargoyle
Giant
Gnome
Goat
Goblin
Golem
Gorgon
Griffin
Hag
Harpy
Hellion
Hippo
Homarid
Homunculus
Horse
Hound
Human
Hydra
Hyena
Imp
Insect
Jellyfish
Juggernaut
Kavu
Kirin
Kithkin
Kobold
Kor
Kraken
Lammasu
Leech
Leviathan
Lhurgoyf
Licid
Lizard
Manticore
Masticore
Merfolk
Metathran
Minotaur
Mongoose
Moonfolk
Myr
Nautilus
Nephilim
Noggle
Octopus
Ogre
Ooze
Orc
Orgg
Ouphe
Ox
Oyster
Pegasus
Pentavite
Pest
Phelddagrif
Phoenix
Rabbit
Rat
Rhino
Salamander
Saproling
Satyr
Scarecrow
Scorpion
Serpent
Shade
Shapeshifter
Sheep
Siren
Skeleton
Slith
Sliver
Slug
Snake
Soltari
Specter
Sphinx
Spider
Spike
Splinter
Sponge
Squid
Squirrel
Starfish
Surrakar
Tetravite
Thalakos
Thopter
Thrull
Treefolk
Triskelavite
Troll
Turtle
Unicorn
Vampire
Vedalken
Viashino
Weird
Whale
Wolf
Wolverine
Wombat
Worm
Wraith
Wurm
Yeti
Zubera
Archer
Artificer
Assassin
Assembly-Worker
Barbarian
Berserker
Citizen
Cleric
Deserter
Druid
Flagbearer
Knight
Mercenary
Monk
Mystic
Nightstalker
Ninja
Nomad
Pirate
Rebel
Rigger
Rogue
Samurai
Scout
Serf
Shaman
Soldier
Spellshaper
Warrior
Wizard
Avatar
Bringer
Carrier
Coward
Egg
Elder
Fungus
Graveborn
Horror
Illusion
Incarnation
Minion
Monger
Mutant
Nightmare
Orb
Pincher
Plant
Prism
Reflection
Sand
Spawn
Spirit
Survivor
Volver
Wall
Zombie
Some notes:
- That the number of ambiguous creature types rivals classes in size betrays a continued free-wheeling attitude toward creature taxonomy.
All the same, I haven't seen a reference like this anywhere else around, and felt it should exist, so I went and made it.I hid the whole blasted thing in spoiler tags so as not to clog up the discussion thread.
I feel 'aron nailed it on that point.
Hoo that feels good.
Ever woken up to bright light and loud birdsong outside your window?
The last few pages of this thread make me want to roll back under the covers.
As far as I can tell from a cursory glance at the submissions and a reading and consideration of the first round, there is nothing at all wrong or in need of fixing. The challenges are not categorically, logically, technically, taxonomically or cryptozoographically impossible. The task is even more clever at further consideration than I had given credit for on my first reading, and has inspired me to some ideas for the direction the rest of this month may take.
So get ready for more fun of the exact kind and amount you may be experiencing right now.
Judges are forbidden from docking points from an entry for the sole reason of lacking a render.
Players are encouraged to make renders because it is cool and fun.
I'm shocked to see it down to a mere 461 cards. Happy Gilmore here is really happy about all his includes, and visibly agonizes over removing even one.
When we draft this cube (or do sealed or really any variant) the games always go long. Grindy stalemate builds upon grindy stalemate. Someone lets me draft every Nekrataal that ever was, and someone lets Happy Gilmore draft Rude Awakening, Masticore, and Plow Under. Whichever one of us gets the Volrath's Stronghold eventually breaks the stalemate. Every other card may as well be blanks that trade with each other. Very little in this cube has the power to break up stalemates, and plenty in it has the power to stall.
Some notes:
Why does red lack sweepers? In all the non-creature spells you have Rolling Earthquake as the only sweeper.
This is why people pick Rude Awakening so highly: it is unchecked. Have your spell run headlong into Volcanic Fallout or Sulfurous Blast and we're really cooking. We have a game, then.
I'd also like to see Shattering Spree in the list, as well as some of the more egregious color distinctions rectified and balanced (Kird Ape in the Multicolor category, for instance). Masticore needs more and better answers. And I don't mean the Keldon Vandals, that card must have been obsoleted a thousand times over by now. Ingot Chewer at the very least.
I know you're not going to listen to me any more in the forums than you would in life, but at the very least you should replace Puncture Blast with Yamabushi's Flame. Recursion is nutty in this cube and you don't have enough answers already. Y-Flame answers more than just Redcap and Finks.
Out: Puncture Blast
In: Yamabushi's Flame
Just moving this where it belongs.
For my part, I can state that including the rarity is always important, worth 1 or more points, and sometimes leaving it off can get you disqualified. We evaluate cards based in part on whether the complexity and power is a good fit for the rarity.