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May 7, 2009Posted in: Standard Archives
this is what I've come up with.
I played my version against someone yesterday with a deck similar to yours, except without borderposts and with Sprouting Thrinax and Bituminous Blast. I was at an early disadvantage with MD Terror and can't really sustain control until I get a planeswalker in play. A Slave of Bolas is key in the matchup. Thought Hemorrhage would have been nice to pull out Bituminous Blast, so I think that is going in the sideboard. Not sure about the rest of it yet.
May 6, 2009Played a few test games online (preboard only), and the deck was fast and consistent so far. Very very nice. Even won 1 game where I had to mulligan to 5. Another against a 5CC variant ended with opponent with a handful of cards but not enough mana to deal with all the threats in time. Liliana was nice against a planeswalker deck, pulling up Maelstrom Pulse to end an army of dragon tokens.Posted in: Standard Archives
I had no trouble getting out either Putrid Leech or Jund Hackblade turn 2, either, and used the borderposts to ramp into Liliana, so everything has worked very well so far.
3 wins, and 1 loss. The loss was really my play mistake, I didn't play against a planeswalker deck correctly.
May 3, 2009Posted in: Standard Archives
I had not thought about that particular replacement, so let's take a look. If we remove 4 Veinfire Borderposts and add 4 Bloodfire Oozes, then we have reduce our effective land count by 4 to 22, though it is hard to claim we have lowered the curve for our finishers. It may be alright, because there are additional ways to get more mana (Hackblade, Garruk) but taking out land sounds like trouble. Let's break it down by pro's and con's.
higher threat density
Chance to start growing by turn 3 to a 2/2 or 3/3
Chance to do 11-12 damage by turn 3 with nice goldfish
Less manafixing - harder to play turn 2 threat.
Lower land drop density increases manascrew
reduce turn 2 Hackblade haste potential.
less chance overall to do large consistent, early damage
I don't think there is a convincing case for the Ooze here. Now let's look at the different ways to play Jund Hackblade or Putrid Leech by turn 2, which needs to be consistent for the deck to work (just like a 3-drop in Doran):
Jund Hackblade by t2:
any land or borderpost plus Mountain,
any basic land plus any borderpost or Savage Garden
can't play with only just Swamps and Forests.
Putrid Leech by t2:
Swamp plus Forest or Firewild Borderpost or Savage Garden
Forest plus Veinfire Borderpost or Savage Garden
Cannot play if 1 of 2 lands is a mountain.
Jund Hackblade would only be slightly less playable by replacing a borderpost with Bloodhall Ooze, but his chance to be a hasty 3/2 is reduced by half, not horrible when you consider that there might be a 3/3 attaacking instead. Putrid Leech though, is actually significantly tricky to play t2, requiring a Swamp or Forest, and would be even harder to play by taking out even more cards that could help play it. Actually, if Putrid Leech was any harder to play in this deck it likely wouldn't be worth sleeving up, and that's what would happen.
So I think your argument would have been better if it suggested replacing Putrid Leech with the Ooze, but then you would remove a very powerful creature in its own right for one that is only good when combined with Jund Hackblade t2, which would only statistically happen 1 out of every 7 or 8 games. Personally I would prefer a consistent beater by turn 2 every game. Maybe there is a way to play with Bloodhall Ooze, like maybe replacing a removal card against control as an example. I don't see him replacing anything MD though in this build.
May 3, 2009Posted in: Standard Archives
Interesting. If you have time, I'd like to hear more. I haven't gotten any quality critiques yet. People generally don't like my new decks, but that's okay, because the themes they contain usually show up in competitive lists eventually. Like you, I think borderposts are such a theme. I've selected rock-like aggro creatures that are superior to most removal, and used quality broad spectrum removal myself, and installed a quality consistent manabase. I know the deck is going to perform pretty well, so i'm just looking for people to help me take it the rest of the way. Thanks for the feedback!
May 3, 2009Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from BliIf I'm going to "accel" with borderpost on turn 4, I'd rather play a garruk which gets you at least 1 more mana than a post. Furthermore, fertile ground works wayyyy better with garruk than borderpost. Look at jund ramp...
Finally, I don't think the posts are that great at fixing imo. I'd rather just run filterlands painlands or the like. If you have no budget, I dont see how filterlands are worse than posts. In fact, I'd say they are almost STRICTLY better in every regard. The main point is they don't CIPT! If you seem to keep stressing fast two drop on turn 2. Why dont you just play some BoP or something? Or filterlands will work just as well.
I've yet to see the need for a post in this meta. As a fixer, there are better options in filterlands, painlands, shardlands, BoP, etc. As a ramp mechanism, it's practically unusable compared to mana producers like BoP or even elves, or spells like fertile ground that have great synergy with garruk.
I dont see borderposts going anywhere outside of limited until lorwyn rotates...
Wow. This is completely wrong, sorry. Like, every sentence, pretty much.
1. Posts fix as well or better than filters. If you have a swamp, a Firewild post will let you have red or green turn 2. Granted, they should be played turn 1, but this deck takes that into account by running 8. A red/green filter is worthless with only a swamp in play. So no, filters are not better.
2. Why are you comparing Garruk and Posts? Apples and oranges, sir. Turn 4, if you have Garruk, you play him, unless you can't protect him, in which case you play the post, which is harder to remove.
3. Fertile Ground counts as a spell, and Posts do not, when building a deck, as long as you have enough basics to support them. The Garruk/Fertile ground synergy doesn't help this deck, and would dilute it. Think about how much much smoother this is than ramp, how you don't have to rely on green manafixers, how you can swing for boatloads of damage and still have cards in your hand... Time to evolve to something better.
4. Re: "Just play birds..." - you need green mana to play birds, and if you don't have it... Not to mention, Birds don't count as land, so we would be back to classic ramp dilution. Seriously, I think you need to understand how effective a borderpost really is, because it is better than any other card at doing all of the following things together:
counting as a land
not caring about color mana cost
providing acceleration utility
Jund Hackblade synergy
plus other synergies in other decks not relevant here.
5. CIPT. Yes, could be a drawback in some decks. But not in this deck, not really. On turn 1, not a drawback. No 1-drops in the deck. On turn 3, no drawback, again, because there are no 1-drops to play. On turn 4 and beyond you have to weigh playing the card based on circumstance, but by this time most if not all manafixing problems have been addressed, and you could choose to use it to accelerate into Broodmate, play it like a normal land drop, or hold it. Even at this point, it is still very useful. So no CIPT isn't really a drawback here. Even though Filters and BoP don't have a CIPT restriction, they still can't give you what posts do.
6. Re: A need for posts in the meta... - What meta are you watching, because the meta essentially just got artifact lands that are easy to play, manafix, and accelerate. I stomp your meta all day long.
7. Re: until Lorwyn rotates... Wow... I think once you understand everything I wrote above, this is just false. Or once it hits standard. Whichever comes first.
So yeah, I've built this deck to maximize the potential synergies around a great set of mana-producers, and ended up with something that is going to be more consistent, faster, and stronger than versions that don't run them. I hope this puts the argument that borderposts are no good to rest, because it should.
May 3, 2009Posted in: Standard Archives
Interesting take with the borderposts. Except for the warrior theme you are going for, it's similar to my deck here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=160062
I have played warrior builds before, and they are generally too slow to be effective aggro decks. Anyways, if you haven't already, compare our decklists, there are some similar things happening.
May 3, 2009Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from Toymaker48 Borderposts and 4 Bloodbraid Elves
This is not synergy (unless you like hitting Borderposts with Elves often)
I would suggest you switch Bloodbraid Elves to another card.
You could look at it that way. You could also take it in context. For example, here is a list of cards you could cascade into with the current deck list:
What jumps out to me is that I generally would not want to play Bloodbraid Elf unless the opponent has a creature in play, to make the removal relevant. Banefire is the only truly dead card that I would always be sorry to reveal. If I happen to pull a borderpost with the Broodbraid, it means these things:
I now have at the very least 5 mana next turn.
I won't draw into any land preceding the borderpost in the deck, since it was put at the bottom.
I won't draw into the borderpost, which at this point in the game is likely a good thing.
The next cards I draw have an increased statistical probability of being threats or removal, which is desirable.
Think about it this way. Bloodbraid Elf is either going bring an extra threat, removal, or fix my draws. This is a win-win-win scenario. It might not always be flashy, but it will always improve this turn or the next.
Add these things to the 3-power haster that landed on the table, and I hope this changes your perspective on exactly how "bad" the scenario really is. In fact, it is making the deck better, not worse. The deck is like butter, all you have to do is spread it around.
May 2, 2009rhyaxeau posted a message on So... Mythic rares are the new cards between "uncommon" and "rare"?Posted in: New Card DiscussionQuote from ab33To expand on hamtastic's post. Utility cards are cards that can go in different types of decks and are not really build around me. Maelstrom Pulse is a utility card at rare and so is banefire and noble heirarch, they can go into different decks pretty easy. Jenera can really only go into one or two decks and the mana requirement makes the card build around me if I dont already fit in a deck. Planeswalkers are mythics for flavor and limited reasons.
I see the point, and yes to this and Hamtastic's point that Wizards did not print a archetypal utility card at mythic. I also upon rereading the article and reflecting think I overstated my accusation, so I apologize. I think the set is great, and all in all I like where Magic is going.
But I think the reason I am uneasy about Jenara is still valid, and I think both the above statement and hamtastic's are incomplete. Here is why. A utility card is terminology that we all recognize, but is not concretely defined. In fact, Mutavault, if it were printed in this block, might not be considered a utility card at all, because it is not particularly good in Shards, even though the creature type relevance in Lorwyn was strong. Char is not good in a deck without red, though we can understand the ease of splashing for it so it is generally a utility type card.
At this time in Shards block, when there is an historic level of access to tournament-quality manafixing, A card like Jenara can still be played in a wide variety of decks, and I think it will. You have to take the card in context of it's splashiness, and despite it's 3-color requirement, it can still be reliable cast in nearly any deck willing to splash white. So, to me, in Shards, it is in fact a utility card. So let's not mince words. If Jenara is utility, then I am right. If it is not, then I am wrong. In fact, in the quoted article, it is mentioned that there are more categories of cards besides utility that they were avoiding making mythic, so utility is just one perspective.
In my opinion, and in my interpretation, Wizards is overstepping the playability value of mythics with Jenara by their own publicly revealed measure, and slippery slope definitely applies here. When the next block comes out, and they print something even more blatantly utility, they could rightly say, why didn't we get your feedback before, when we printed an undercosted mythic? We thought you liked undercosted mythics! It's time now to say, if it quacks, chances are good that it is, in fact, a duck, and not the lesser know duck-billed chicken.
May 2, 2009Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from Spaghetti MonsterYes, borderposts are pretty good mana fixers. I think some of the lands available are better (vivd lands, reflecting pool, ect) and really only the hackblade benifits from them being multicolor. They are lot cheaper then the land though. You can you use Garruk to untap them to accel into your Dragon with is another draw back. I just think that unless you really need it for the color matter part (hackblade 4 cards in the deck) or because they are artifacts (some kind of esper deck) that there are better fixers/accelerators available in standard right now. After rotation? Who knows?
This is not a budget thread, so lands being expensive has nothing to do with them not being in the deck. Jund Hackblade is a monster 2-drop, possibly the best in Standard when there is a borderpost in play, so don't minimalize its impact. Really, what is the replacement?
You said there are better fixers/accelerators in standard. In this deck, which of these cards are better? I think Garruk is really weak if you pigeonhole him onto a strictly Ramp role, as likely more often he is going to assist by being a token producer, with Ramp more as plan B.
I think your argument is promoting playing pure Ramp, and losing the Hackblades. I don't get how that makes the deck better though, it just makes it slower and more traditional. This is like Rock, but faster, has fewer dead cards, and it has a quality late game.
I think I can explain how much better the borderposts are. Say we take out the borderposts, replace them with land, then replace the Jund Hackblade with Fertile Ground. What happens to the deck? It gets slower, reduces the threat count, and doesn't really help get to Broodmate any faster. That idea just doesn't work, sorry.
May 2, 2009Posted in: Standard Archives
well, it is poor late game, possibly interferes with manafixing turn 1 even if you do pull it, making it harder to play a superior turn 2 beater. Bloodhall Ooze is one of those cards dripping with potential but generally it is just worse than everything else. There is just never a good time to play it.
May 1, 2009Posted in: Standard ArchivesQuote from BliBorderposts are awfully slow accel. Wouldn't you rather play fertile ground or something? Heck, by turn 4 you could play Garruk!
No, because fertile ground is a spell and borderpost counts as a land in the deck. Also, the deck is built to drop aggressive creatures on turn 2, so fertile ground makes zero sense. The borderpost is not in the deck just because it can be an accelerator, the benefit is that it is better than a land in that you can accelerate with it. Sorry, I don't understand your Garruk reference.
May 1, 2009So yeah, the borderposts can be played on turn 3 or 4 for example as a not-as-good obelisk in addition to making a land drop, which is bad in a vacuum but pretty good when you consider they allow you to consistently play Putrid Leech or Jund Hackblade turn 2, and generally get out Broodmate Dragon a turn quicker. The borderposts "count" as land, unlike traditional accelerators, which allows a higher threat density compared to Ramp, but still provides early game mana fixing that helps Rock play with the best creatures.Posted in: Standard Archives
That's why I made the deck. Any comments?
May 1, 2009Borderposts do two things here, they manafix for a strong turn 2 drop, and they also can accelerate into an early Broodmate. This deck will have a feel of ramp, has good card quality vs. control and Kithkin, and can play for advantage in several ways.Posted in: Standard Archives
DeckMagic OnlineOCTGN2ApprenticeBuy These Cards Lands (plus borderposts)
4 Veinfire Borderpost
4 Firewild Borderpost
3 Savage Lands
4 Treetop Village
4 Jund Hackblade
4 Putrid Leech
3 Hell's Thunder
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Broodmate Dragon
4 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Garruk Wildspeaker
3 Slave of Bolas
2 Liliana Vess
So the first borderpost is ideally the first land, while the second is a ramp drop for acceleration. The creatures look a bit out of place compared to Doran Rock, but they should allow for a strong aggro opening regardless at the 2-drop, with strong efficient stats. Terror is chosen over Terminate because of BFT. Putrid Leech and Bloodbraid Elf should help against aggro decks by cluttering up the field, but there isn't much game against Faeries besides to race them. Slave of Bolas is a bit of an outlier, but against cards like Lark or to create an alpha strike it is more cross-functional than a card like Threaten and I like that it sacrifices the creature at EOT.
Anyways, I'm looking for some creative criticism, new ideas, sideboard lists, etc. so thanks for taking a look.
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