Hi I'm posting hear as white splash stompy and this deck are getting closer and closer to converging as there I have a couple of questions about some of the cards you run.
Basically the first question comes down to how many kython can agressive decks like this run and consistantly flip him and not draw to many multiples? I've been trialling him and if he's run along side narnams and hexdrinks you can end up with a board of huge/very hard to kill and problematic one drops.
Second how good is teeg/voice mb in a agressive deck in the current meta? and are they still this good without anthem effects?
Lastly from your experience do you think a single legion's landings is worth running in the green aggro lists? (I will include a deck list at the bottom)
With the addion of hexdrinker into the green based stompy lists the curve has been significantly lowered, and the the resistance of the deck has increased.
Kython and loam lion have both been solid cards and the SB is basically most of the hate bears from this deck.
Thanks for the all the info, I've used some of what you've written to update my lists. (I still haven't tryed out troll yet)
This only thing I disagree with in your comments is the lack of fetches/ narnams I find the narnams insane value and the deck thinning is particularly useful (also 22 lands seems quite high for what is becoming a more resistant zoo deck, iv personaly droped to 20 to help keep the agressivnes of the deck).
But I'll have a play without them as it's been a while since I ran all basics.
Really like the build. What's your thoughts on dropping scooze? Interesting your not finding defence any good, is it's just down to non interactive matchups or is the increased resistance from troll and hexdrinker making the hexproof redundant?
Down on: Damping Sphere
Storm has not seen much play in while, and for the time being Tron isnt very prevalent due to all the turn 2/3 decks running rampant.
Shutting off Altar of dementia, Griselbrand, inkmoth nexus, Pendelhaven, giver of runes, Celestial Colonnade, walkers doesnt sound great to me. Hogaak can win without altar, Griselbrand can still fly for 7 lifelink
inkmoth nexus, Pendelhaven from infect? Nexus is only one third of their threats (or less if you count Hierarch), Pendelhaven has small effect
disabling one walker after he used his ability doesnt look gread. If you cast Needle in advance its hard to name a proper walker since they usually dont run sets of four. Celestial Colonnade is very expensive, if you didnt win before or coudlnt counter it with pumps seems like you lost anyway.
though it looks ok vs Affinity, they have a lot of good targets so Needle is not likely to be wasted
Damping Sphere. Tron, Phoenix are still top decks, Storm, Amulet Titan are still good. I dont see a reason to remove great sideboard card for our tough matchups.
Nissa, Voice of Zendikar. I like Finks, they are great for aggro and grinding.
What do you guys think about the new one drop hexdrinker that was added lately?
Do you think its good enough in our deck?
I think Pelt Collector is better as a pretty reliable 3/3. Hexdrinker can be better than Dryad, it depends on your meta and number of mana sinks in your list (less mana sinks > Hexdrinker more valuable).
i genuinely can't tell if your trolling or not but on the off chance your not or that someone reading this takes it seriously
pithing needle, is not meant to win the game, it is meant to slow down opponents using a hard to deal with 1 drop against to shut off your opponent best engine/wincon is about as good as it gets outside of ley lines in modern. and hitting so many decks so constantly makes it ideal for sb in a mono colored deck. if you think that shutting lilly off against jund/ inkmoth against affinity and infect, colonnade against control, and alter against hogaak. dosnt buy a couple of turns to help you win and close a game you really haven't been playing in the current meta. i would also add, it shuts off druid combo, ballister in scales, adnusaum not to mention all its targets in tron and all the other fringe combo decks.
ok damping sphere, i agree its to slow for us, yes it helps against tron but going fast works better. sphere is very slow in the format due to most decks only needing to cast 1-2 cards to win. it is very good against phoenix but that's about it. against storm, dryad militant is normally sufficient for a win, as disabling past in flames and gifts makes winning very hard for them. as they need considerable starting blue mana to go off without there gy, (normally turn 5) which is plenty of time for us to win with our agressive board. also turn on militant is hard for them to win past due to not being able to remand it which is all the mb interaction they run. tron is already a horrific matchup. but artifact hate and a fast board are the best way to go against traditional tron. they can pretty easily deal with artifact and enchantment based hate. if they ugin,ulamog or all is dust we loose, but 2-3 of those are turn 4 plays for tron. where as all the other threats can be dealt with or ignored with artifact hate. the only decent sb card against tron is teeg and is the reason i run w splash. against amulet titan, yes it can slow them down a little, if they have an amulet, apart from that is better to run basic creature removal and artifact/enchantment hate as these are the sources of there wincon, the new oopie is the best addition we've had for this matchup in a long while, (apart from titan which there is no way for mono green to deal with in modern.)
agreed finks rocks against midrange, also thrun is generally pretty solid (hexdrinker has also can do a lot of work in these matchups.)
pelt collector is not great, going of power is a fine but it there are only 2 creatures (8 slots 10 in a really slow build) that get it past a 2 constantly (yes it can happen with a creature dies with pump on but thats pretty rare as most of our pump spells are also protection or from a once killed strangleroot but its not consistent) its also horric as in multiples and the worsce top deck in the deck. e one protects itself which makes it superior in most matchups. and if your running more than 5 eone/pelt total in your deck you are really going to struggle to get them big constantly
hexdrinker, is by far the better creature, its constantly a 2 power for 1, and is the single best top deck that we can run in grindy games. it becomes a top end threat for 3 extra mana and is pretty consistent in its ability to get there in the current meta ( there is very little interaction in modern atm, and most of it is discard, most decks that run a little removal will need to save it for dryad as it shuts down to many strategies in modern to be ignored. leaving this a 4/4 or rarly 6/6
@MagicYio
on hexdrinker.
yes it does to board wipes but so dose everything except thrun and rhonas (and maybe not strangle root or eone)
i don't think that hexdrinker is just a 1 drop slot creature, it does a very good impression of a three drop, that is a little better when you are mana screwed. agreed its a nobo with pump, but is is normally big enough to not care. most of the time it means you can save the protection and pump for when your other creatures. the closest card to it that i've played is dungrove elder, but cosing 1 cmc rather than 3, its also dose a very very good job of speeding the deck up. my current build is now constantly a turn 4 sometimes turn 3 and hexdrinker is the single biggest reason for the increase in speed. in none fetch builds i would seriously consider running 4 dryad, 4 hexdrinker, 4 eones, in the one drops slot. and cutting the rhonas to make the space (and you know how much a love rhonas).
most people seem to assume that its bad in multiples this isn't really the case. you lvl up the hexdrinker when you have played out your hand and are it top deck mode or you need a big boy, the decks what's to be sticking aggressive one drops as much as possible and hexdrinker does a solid job as a aggressive one drop (its as good as prowler, and better than other choice with easy to used added extras), leveled or not, but it also paints a huge target on it as opponent see mini progenitus and will often kill this over a avatar or scooze if given the chance, and honestly losing a 2/1 for 1 is better in most games that loosing your 4/3 trample reach beatstick. the only other thing that's really important is that it is just a little not expensive to be considered budget at the moment, so should probably be left out the budget lists, (may change in future but its price is still pretty steady over in europe) oh and it dose make the deck more vulnerable to chalice on 1 which is becoming increasingly popular.
also for the primer i've been pretty impressed with 2 copies of [[Barkhide Troll]] in budget builds and feel its a strict upgrade on tusker.
[[Collector Ouphe]] is awesome but need to be run along side rec sages or similar as it does not deal with bridge or chalice.
[[Force of Vigor]] i'm still not sold but have tested this the least out of any of the new cards, this is a very meta dependent option
[[Savage Swipe]] is surprisingly, its the best option for fight spells and may be better that natures way in faster decks, the pump is highly relevant as it means a turn 1 milltanat can use this then rancor for 6 damage turn 2 which in other card terms is groundbreaker and kill a bob. for three mana and 2 cards. i think its better than a third dismember but not better that the first 2. its also the best super budget option.
[[Elvish Reclaimer]] is really bad, it needs looting and or a land based wincon.
[[Veil of Summer]] better that i first though but not by much, maybe if the meta ever slows down as its pretty solid against jund and u/w control.
[[Weather the Storm]] is ok but and one of the better lifegain options but unless you also what storm and phoenix hate on your lifegain, feed and life are better options
oh and [[Waterlogged Grove]] and [[Nurturing Peatland]] should replace horizon canopy in decks not specify splashing white (due to being about a 20$ of the price)
[[Tranquil Thicket]] has also been very solid in super budget builds that cannot afford grove/ or peatland. (has worked better for me in those budget lists that the oasis.)
I was looking at the hammer for the deck, I think it's a little bit of a build a round but it's also a worthwhile enough pay of to be a build around.
The few ways I've found to get around the equip cost are
One use
Sigarda's Aid
Magnetic Theft
Kor Outfitter
Multi use
Kazuul's Toll Collector
Pursteel plaidin
I think between theft, aid and puresteel it's potentially a solid game plan. Anyone got any other check equipments like this to add a second effet for consitancy?
I feel like sprrin was the last card needed to make the vampire lords work, as befor this we have had condemned for discard, aristocrat for sac, cordial vamp to take advantage of sac. But the deck was missing another sac outlet and a way to reanimated stuff that's saved or discarded that wasn't bloodghaust. Sorin provides both in for 3 mana with added removal and in a very splashable way.
I think that the core of the deck from now on should look a little like this.
As this contains most of the value engine for the deck. Add on another lord or two (depending on the colors splashed) some unearths (for getting back discarded lords) and some seers for more value, and then go wild with agressive one drops of choice.
There's also an argument for sticking with mono black and taking a smallpox+heavy aristocrats style of play, which could be fun.
on the new reliquary elf. basically it would have been perfect for a fetchland heavy build, before hexdrinker was printed, i agree that hexdrinker out classes it in every way. if it started as a 2/1 then it might be worth looking into, but the not coming online till turn three at earliest and the defensive stats for the first three turns means its no good for us. the place i see it working really well is a vengevine discard aggro deck.
what do you think about a black splash with Winding Constrictor, he should work well with hexdrinker, avatar of the resolute and the new barkhide troll.
also the ability can stack if we have more the one on the battlefield...
Adding a second colour is not free(phyrexian mana doesnt count), The cornerstone of Green stompy is pain free mana base + aspect of hydra. That is our core advantage over other decks.
Winding constrictor means you now must guarantee black on turn 2. If you are going to warp the mana base to achieve that then you can do much more powerful things with G/B available and it only makes sense to go down that path since all the upfront cost has been paid. like compliment our threats with cheap discard since control is problem for the deck, or add cheap black removal since tribal strategies are a losing match up too. congrats you are now playing Rock.
If we take budget out of the equation I disagree with you about the not including fetchlands yes they make narnams better and slow for a second Color splash, but the also increase the decks consitancy, taking out extra lands and meaning we can draw more threats and protection. Also in black specificly they add both the slash and revolt for fatal push, with is one of the big three removal spells for a reason. Dismember is a ok budget replement but it is a budget replacement. Also yes we take a little pain in the mana base but a single dismember takes 4 life, and that's about the life loss you can expect in a game where you fetch a single shock and fetch a basic. Dismember dosnt work with this plan as you need three lands (2 of which are black to offset the life lose) remember dismember is 1 2 life and 2 life not 1 and 4 life.
Also the option it opens up with assassins trophy and abrupt decays means you get answers to Tron lands, Jace, tef Chalice on one and ensuring bridge. All connected to creture removal. Which are all thing that the deck struggles with. It also adds nihile spell bombs as a legitimate gy hate which is nice.
I disagree that you would end up playing rock. Rock is a powerful midrange resources denial deck. Stompy is still an aggro deck that uses protection and instant speed pump to close games.
Stompy is much more that a budget pain free mana base and aspect. It's also a green dominant aggro deck with lots of protection with easy game play and extremely strong budget options which how most people start the deck. The pain free mana base is only usful in a meta of fair decks that win with constant incremental damadge. This is not the current meta, so like every other deck we need to change to fit. Going faster and closer to the ground while maintaining disruption and resistance to spot removal and 0 reliance on the gy is much more important to the decks winning in the current meta. Aspect builds are nice but also inheratly slow. With a turn 1-2-3 drops curving out and the an aspect on turn 4 for +20 damadge by then the game is already over, 13-14 damadge by turn three dose alot more by shuting down opponents fetch and shock lands, with them needing multiple answer to deal with our protected threats and getting there life nice and low befor they can baordwipe, We used to be better at disrupting when infect and twin ruled because of vines but as green hasn't had any new relevent disruption in a long time but also alot of agressive cretures. the slower disruption plan needs to side line and we have to lean into the aggro plan a little harder.
Personaly I agree that snake may be worth another try. I tried to make him work about a year and a half ago and the counter synagy just wasnt there then. Now with hexdrinker and the troll it seems like a much more viable strategy, especially is you run the constrictor in the three drop slot as a 3 of(as troll and hexdrinker can act as the big game ending beatsticks.)
This while running mb Push and the new g/b horizon land. seemm pretty viable.
I don't think it's as powerful as a white slash but is certainly much closer in power than it used to be and now has its own legimate pay offs and strengths. (I think g/b is fantastic against fair and midrangy decks (humans, jund, spirits ect) and g/w is better against unfair combo decks (dreadge + vines, storm, adnuasum, vizer company ect. )
It could work but I feel like it wants a more bogles or heroic build with lots of targeted spell. Maybe in a more midrangy build
The card that I think could make it in is Rotting Regisaur in builds running a black splash. With a rancor attached this is insanely powerful and should close games out extremely fast. The downside isn't really a downside as by turn 3-4 were in top deck mode anyway.
yeah having a slow land base isn't great but the deck only really contains 8 tapped lands so if you play your turn 1 tapped your normally ok for turn 2 and three
Marit Lage's Slumber, it does a solid azcanter impression, with the constant scrying. and i've yet to have someone not flat out conceded when the token comes in, as if we get to sac it you've got control of the board state and that point.
the two bid advantages of whiter over day is that its less demanding (color mana wise) and it costs one less, this really matters when we get stuck with a slow land hand. (also being able to boardwipe turn three is particularly useful against dredge phoenix and humans, as the budget means the deck struggles to pack a lot of 1 cmc spot removal for the early games. (it also takes out spirit decks as selfless spirit is basically useless)
im still playing around with sb, i'll let you know when i've settled. but 6 mb gy hate seems about right. and being able to cycle spell bomb and use other modes with guile means they are not useless draws against decks that don't use the gy
on the life loss for unmaking, the deck doesn't have to much issues with life gain, guile provides solid amounts as dose absorb (not enough to take out burn, but its normally enough to mean i don't have to worry to much.
pw yeah ive been playing around with the idea, i've just yet to settle on one, fact & fiction deals with card advantage so jace is irrelevant, and i'm not convinced by ob nixilis i this build. dovin seems interesting the active abilty clause seems very solid. i've been playing around with the idea of either Ugin, the Ineffable (for the unconditional removal and card advantage plus it is another wincon )or Liliana Vess who can start up tutore the first 2 turns shes out.
veto not been much of an issue yet and its ability to help against uw control means it has to stay for my meta. i could see training i loic know, its been far from the best counter.
getting to 5 mana happens by turn 5 ost games and Silumgar's Command real value is from ts 2-1 nature. with the way the deck curves it fits for now, but this is probably a flexy slot going forwards
ill probably look at adding kaya into the sb once she rotates out of standard but for now she's out of range.
ive been playing around with adding 2 copys of Shambling Vent as a man land wincon so will test and get back
im finding more and more that eone is the weakest one drop, narnam is the singly most powerful and dryad amazing because of the current meta. hexdrink is continually out classing eone as the only turn eone is better is turn 1 every turn after is worse, and if we get caught in a grindy game hexdrinker is the single best draw in the deck. kytheon is almost hexdrinker copy number 5, (but with legendary is only a 1 of) he can also stall out against decks like taxes and death shadow. loam lion is a cardive been pleasantly surprised with, normally a worse narnam 3 defence is becoming increasing relevant in modern. (blocks bloodghast, and zombie tokens, most of burns creatures and a fair few humans including thalia). it also gets e one to a 3/3 turn 2 so it's been a pretty solid inclusion. (also as im now running 4 defence it makes means loam lion can swing into thought knots which is fun.
i'm in love with the 9 protection + pump spells mb it just feels extremely good to swing in and not have to care what your opponents going to try (give or take a settle)
Selfless Spirit has been a surprisingly good sb with a heavy white splash and greater aggro tilt.
the only difference i might make to sb is more aggressive gy hate, as at the moment i dealing with bridge vines with a mix of militants, paths and pithing needles but its a huge struggle if they combo off, and scooze is only good if they wiff a little or try to play fair magic.
if anyone wanted to experiment with this build the weakest slots are eone and avatar but i dont think theres better options for now.
i know this is pretty drastically different from other builds hear but please still share any ideas you have
also @tokaok with your current build your going to take more damage from fetching and shocking yourself that would would from just paying the 4 life from dismember, with 15 mb black sources you might as well run push as your mb removal and sb assassin trophy as a catch all. also Abrupt Decay is pretty solid.
Hmm i just shaved my last two Tuskers to go up to 12 one drops with hexdrinker addition.
But only having 4x two drops that evolve E1 to 3 precombat does suck. The trolls synergy with Avatar + his ability to keep him self safe does both things we want to do. Playhard and fast, or be hard to kill.
I feel that the right curve might be to drop down to 11 one drops, and Shave Steel leaf to 3, making room for 2x Barkhide Troll.
thats looking pretty solid the only difference i would make is - 1 eone for +1 hexdrinker (top decking eones is horrible and apart from turn 1 eone which is still the decks best opener, hexdrinker is a better cretre)
i would also be tempted to drop either 1 rancor or aspect for +1 vines, but that's personal preference
have you tried Force of Vigor out yet? if so hows it playing? (i've yet to trial it)
I think this pushes scooze out of main deck. Sure, keep some in sideboard, but damn - adding resiliency and counters synergy to Kalonian Tusker really flips it up a few notches.
the meta at the moment is very very gy heavy and scooze is essential to win in a number of matchups, if the meta ever switches back to jund, burn, mardu pyromancer then will be the time to mb troll over scooze i think.
Basically the first question comes down to how many kython can agressive decks like this run and consistantly flip him and not draw to many multiples? I've been trialling him and if he's run along side narnams and hexdrinks you can end up with a board of huge/very hard to kill and problematic one drops.
Second how good is teeg/voice mb in a agressive deck in the current meta? and are they still this good without anthem effects?
Lastly from your experience do you think a single legion's landings is worth running in the green aggro lists? (I will include a deck list at the bottom)
With the addion of hexdrinker into the green based stompy lists the curve has been significantly lowered, and the the resistance of the deck has increased.
Kython and loam lion have both been solid cards and the SB is basically most of the hate bears from this deck.
4x Dryad Militant
3x Experiment One
4x Hexdrinker
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Loam Lion
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Avatar of the Resolute
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Forest
3x Horizon Canopy
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (9)
4x Blossoming Defense
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Vines of Vastwood
Enchantment (3)
3x Rancor
1x Collector Ouphe
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Grafdigger's Cage
3x Knight of Autumn
3x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Selfless Spirit
This only thing I disagree with in your comments is the lack of fetches/ narnams I find the narnams insane value and the deck thinning is particularly useful (also 22 lands seems quite high for what is becoming a more resistant zoo deck, iv personaly droped to 20 to help keep the agressivnes of the deck).
But I'll have a play without them as it's been a while since I ran all basics.
1x Breeding Pool
1x Hall of Heliod's Generosity
8x Snow-Covered Forest
1x Snow-Covered Island
1x Snow-Covered Plains
1x Temple Garden
3x Waterlogged Grove
4x Windswept Heath
2x Fertile Ground
4x Intruder Alarm
3x On Thin Ice
3x Presence of Gond
2x Squirrel Nest
4x Utopia Sprawl
Artifact (3)
3x Arcum's Astrolabe
4x Arbor Elf
2x Eternal Witness
1x Kiora's Follower
4x Midnight Guard
4x Steward of Solidarity
Sorcery (4)
4x Commune with the Gods
interested in any ideas or thoughts people may have.
i genuinely can't tell if your trolling or not but on the off chance your not or that someone reading this takes it seriously
pithing needle, is not meant to win the game, it is meant to slow down opponents using a hard to deal with 1 drop against to shut off your opponent best engine/wincon is about as good as it gets outside of ley lines in modern. and hitting so many decks so constantly makes it ideal for sb in a mono colored deck. if you think that shutting lilly off against jund/ inkmoth against affinity and infect, colonnade against control, and alter against hogaak. dosnt buy a couple of turns to help you win and close a game you really haven't been playing in the current meta. i would also add, it shuts off druid combo, ballister in scales, adnusaum not to mention all its targets in tron and all the other fringe combo decks.
ok damping sphere, i agree its to slow for us, yes it helps against tron but going fast works better. sphere is very slow in the format due to most decks only needing to cast 1-2 cards to win. it is very good against phoenix but that's about it. against storm, dryad militant is normally sufficient for a win, as disabling past in flames and gifts makes winning very hard for them. as they need considerable starting blue mana to go off without there gy, (normally turn 5) which is plenty of time for us to win with our agressive board. also turn on militant is hard for them to win past due to not being able to remand it which is all the mb interaction they run. tron is already a horrific matchup. but artifact hate and a fast board are the best way to go against traditional tron. they can pretty easily deal with artifact and enchantment based hate. if they ugin,ulamog or all is dust we loose, but 2-3 of those are turn 4 plays for tron. where as all the other threats can be dealt with or ignored with artifact hate. the only decent sb card against tron is teeg and is the reason i run w splash. against amulet titan, yes it can slow them down a little, if they have an amulet, apart from that is better to run basic creature removal and artifact/enchantment hate as these are the sources of there wincon, the new oopie is the best addition we've had for this matchup in a long while, (apart from titan which there is no way for mono green to deal with in modern.)
agreed finks rocks against midrange, also thrun is generally pretty solid (hexdrinker has also can do a lot of work in these matchups.)
pelt collector is not great, going of power is a fine but it there are only 2 creatures (8 slots 10 in a really slow build) that get it past a 2 constantly (yes it can happen with a creature dies with pump on but thats pretty rare as most of our pump spells are also protection or from a once killed strangleroot but its not consistent) its also horric as in multiples and the worsce top deck in the deck. e one protects itself which makes it superior in most matchups. and if your running more than 5 eone/pelt total in your deck you are really going to struggle to get them big constantly
hexdrinker, is by far the better creature, its constantly a 2 power for 1, and is the single best top deck that we can run in grindy games. it becomes a top end threat for 3 extra mana and is pretty consistent in its ability to get there in the current meta ( there is very little interaction in modern atm, and most of it is discard, most decks that run a little removal will need to save it for dryad as it shuts down to many strategies in modern to be ignored. leaving this a 4/4 or rarly 6/6
@MagicYio
on hexdrinker.
yes it does to board wipes but so dose everything except thrun and rhonas (and maybe not strangle root or eone)
i don't think that hexdrinker is just a 1 drop slot creature, it does a very good impression of a three drop, that is a little better when you are mana screwed. agreed its a nobo with pump, but is is normally big enough to not care. most of the time it means you can save the protection and pump for when your other creatures. the closest card to it that i've played is dungrove elder, but cosing 1 cmc rather than 3, its also dose a very very good job of speeding the deck up. my current build is now constantly a turn 4 sometimes turn 3 and hexdrinker is the single biggest reason for the increase in speed. in none fetch builds i would seriously consider running 4 dryad, 4 hexdrinker, 4 eones, in the one drops slot. and cutting the rhonas to make the space (and you know how much a love rhonas).
most people seem to assume that its bad in multiples this isn't really the case. you lvl up the hexdrinker when you have played out your hand and are it top deck mode or you need a big boy, the decks what's to be sticking aggressive one drops as much as possible and hexdrinker does a solid job as a aggressive one drop (its as good as prowler, and better than other choice with easy to used added extras), leveled or not, but it also paints a huge target on it as opponent see mini progenitus and will often kill this over a avatar or scooze if given the chance, and honestly losing a 2/1 for 1 is better in most games that loosing your 4/3 trample reach beatstick. the only other thing that's really important is that it is just a little not expensive to be considered budget at the moment, so should probably be left out the budget lists, (may change in future but its price is still pretty steady over in europe) oh and it dose make the deck more vulnerable to chalice on 1 which is becoming increasingly popular.
also for the primer i've been pretty impressed with 2 copies of [[Barkhide Troll]] in budget builds and feel its a strict upgrade on tusker.
[[Collector Ouphe]] is awesome but need to be run along side rec sages or similar as it does not deal with bridge or chalice.
[[Force of Vigor]] i'm still not sold but have tested this the least out of any of the new cards, this is a very meta dependent option
[[Savage Swipe]] is surprisingly, its the best option for fight spells and may be better that natures way in faster decks, the pump is highly relevant as it means a turn 1 milltanat can use this then rancor for 6 damage turn 2 which in other card terms is groundbreaker and kill a bob. for three mana and 2 cards. i think its better than a third dismember but not better that the first 2. its also the best super budget option.
[[Elvish Reclaimer]] is really bad, it needs looting and or a land based wincon.
[[Veil of Summer]] better that i first though but not by much, maybe if the meta ever slows down as its pretty solid against jund and u/w control.
[[Weather the Storm]] is ok but and one of the better lifegain options but unless you also what storm and phoenix hate on your lifegain, feed and life are better options
oh and [[Waterlogged Grove]] and [[Nurturing Peatland]] should replace horizon canopy in decks not specify splashing white (due to being about a 20$ of the price)
[[Tranquil Thicket]] has also been very solid in super budget builds that cannot afford grove/ or peatland. (has worked better for me in those budget lists that the oasis.)
The few ways I've found to get around the equip cost are
One use
Sigarda's Aid
Magnetic Theft
Kor Outfitter
Multi use
Kazuul's Toll Collector
Pursteel plaidin
I think between theft, aid and puresteel it's potentially a solid game plan. Anyone got any other check equipments like this to add a second effet for consitancy?
I think that the core of the deck from now on should look a little like this.
4x Stromkirk Condemned
4x Cordial Vampire
4x Bloodghaust
3x Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord
As this contains most of the value engine for the deck. Add on another lord or two (depending on the colors splashed) some unearths (for getting back discarded lords) and some seers for more value, and then go wild with agressive one drops of choice.
There's also an argument for sticking with mono black and taking a smallpox+heavy aristocrats style of play, which could be fun.
My current brew is this
1x Fetid Heath
3x Flagstones of Trokair
3x Godless Shrine
4x Marsh Flats
1x Plains
3x Silent Clearing
2x Swamp
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3x Asylum Visitor
4x Bloodghast
4x Cordial Vampire
3x Indulgent Aristocrat
4x Knight of the Ebon Legion
4x Legion Lieutenant
4x Stromkirk Condemned
3x Smallpox
2x Unearth
Instant (2)
2x Fatal Push
Enchantment (1)
1x Legion's Landing
Artifact (4)
4x Aether Vial
Planeswalker (3)
3x Sorin, Imperious Bloodlord
It's not properly optimised yet and could probably do with some caven of souls ect. But I think this I the way to go for maximum power
If we take budget out of the equation I disagree with you about the not including fetchlands yes they make narnams better and slow for a second Color splash, but the also increase the decks consitancy, taking out extra lands and meaning we can draw more threats and protection. Also in black specificly they add both the slash and revolt for fatal push, with is one of the big three removal spells for a reason. Dismember is a ok budget replement but it is a budget replacement. Also yes we take a little pain in the mana base but a single dismember takes 4 life, and that's about the life loss you can expect in a game where you fetch a single shock and fetch a basic. Dismember dosnt work with this plan as you need three lands (2 of which are black to offset the life lose) remember dismember is 1 2 life and 2 life not 1 and 4 life.
Also the option it opens up with assassins trophy and abrupt decays means you get answers to Tron lands, Jace, tef Chalice on one and ensuring bridge. All connected to creture removal. Which are all thing that the deck struggles with. It also adds nihile spell bombs as a legitimate gy hate which is nice.
I disagree that you would end up playing rock. Rock is a powerful midrange resources denial deck. Stompy is still an aggro deck that uses protection and instant speed pump to close games.
Stompy is much more that a budget pain free mana base and aspect. It's also a green dominant aggro deck with lots of protection with easy game play and extremely strong budget options which how most people start the deck. The pain free mana base is only usful in a meta of fair decks that win with constant incremental damadge. This is not the current meta, so like every other deck we need to change to fit. Going faster and closer to the ground while maintaining disruption and resistance to spot removal and 0 reliance on the gy is much more important to the decks winning in the current meta. Aspect builds are nice but also inheratly slow. With a turn 1-2-3 drops curving out and the an aspect on turn 4 for +20 damadge by then the game is already over, 13-14 damadge by turn three dose alot more by shuting down opponents fetch and shock lands, with them needing multiple answer to deal with our protected threats and getting there life nice and low befor they can baordwipe, We used to be better at disrupting when infect and twin ruled because of vines but as green hasn't had any new relevent disruption in a long time but also alot of agressive cretures. the slower disruption plan needs to side line and we have to lean into the aggro plan a little harder.
Personaly I agree that snake may be worth another try. I tried to make him work about a year and a half ago and the counter synagy just wasnt there then. Now with hexdrinker and the troll it seems like a much more viable strategy, especially is you run the constrictor in the three drop slot as a 3 of(as troll and hexdrinker can act as the big game ending beatsticks.)
This while running mb Push and the new g/b horizon land. seemm pretty viable.
I don't think it's as powerful as a white slash but is certainly much closer in power than it used to be and now has its own legimate pay offs and strengths. (I think g/b is fantastic against fair and midrangy decks (humans, jund, spirits ect) and g/w is better against unfair combo decks (dreadge + vines, storm, adnuasum, vizer company ect. )
The card that I think could make it in is Rotting Regisaur in builds running a black splash. With a rancor attached this is insanely powerful and should close games out extremely fast. The downside isn't really a downside as by turn 3-4 were in top deck mode anyway.
Marit Lage's Slumber, it does a solid azcanter impression, with the constant scrying. and i've yet to have someone not flat out conceded when the token comes in, as if we get to sac it you've got control of the board state and that point.
the two bid advantages of whiter over day is that its less demanding (color mana wise) and it costs one less, this really matters when we get stuck with a slow land hand. (also being able to boardwipe turn three is particularly useful against dredge phoenix and humans, as the budget means the deck struggles to pack a lot of 1 cmc spot removal for the early games. (it also takes out spirit decks as selfless spirit is basically useless)
im still playing around with sb, i'll let you know when i've settled. but 6 mb gy hate seems about right. and being able to cycle spell bomb and use other modes with guile means they are not useless draws against decks that don't use the gy
on the life loss for unmaking, the deck doesn't have to much issues with life gain, guile provides solid amounts as dose absorb (not enough to take out burn, but its normally enough to mean i don't have to worry to much.
pw yeah ive been playing around with the idea, i've just yet to settle on one, fact & fiction deals with card advantage so jace is irrelevant, and i'm not convinced by ob nixilis i this build. dovin seems interesting the active abilty clause seems very solid. i've been playing around with the idea of either Ugin, the Ineffable (for the unconditional removal and card advantage plus it is another wincon )or Liliana Vess who can start up tutore the first 2 turns shes out.
veto not been much of an issue yet and its ability to help against uw control means it has to stay for my meta. i could see training i loic know, its been far from the best counter.
getting to 5 mana happens by turn 5 ost games and Silumgar's Command real value is from ts 2-1 nature. with the way the deck curves it fits for now, but this is probably a flexy slot going forwards
ill probably look at adding kaya into the sb once she rotates out of standard but for now she's out of range.
ive been playing around with adding 2 copys of Shambling Vent as a man land wincon so will test and get back
is become more selesnya zoo but its still stompy just stompy enough that i'll post here
4x Dryad Militant
4x Hexdrinker
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Experiment One
1x Kytheon, Hero of Akros
3x Loam Lion
2x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Forest
3x Horizon Canopy
4x Misty Rainforest
2x Temple Garden
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
Instant (9)
4x Blossoming Defense
3x Dromoka's Command
2x Vines of Vastwood
3x Rancor
2x Collector Ouphe
3x Gaddock Teeg
3x Knight of Autumn
3x Path to Exile
2x Pithing Needle
2x Selfless Spirit
im finding more and more that eone is the weakest one drop, narnam is the singly most powerful and dryad amazing because of the current meta. hexdrink is continually out classing eone as the only turn eone is better is turn 1 every turn after is worse, and if we get caught in a grindy game hexdrinker is the single best draw in the deck. kytheon is almost hexdrinker copy number 5, (but with legendary is only a 1 of) he can also stall out against decks like taxes and death shadow. loam lion is a cardive been pleasantly surprised with, normally a worse narnam 3 defence is becoming increasing relevant in modern. (blocks bloodghast, and zombie tokens, most of burns creatures and a fair few humans including thalia). it also gets e one to a 3/3 turn 2 so it's been a pretty solid inclusion. (also as im now running 4 defence it makes means loam lion can swing into thought knots which is fun.
i'm in love with the 9 protection + pump spells mb it just feels extremely good to swing in and not have to care what your opponents going to try (give or take a settle)
Selfless Spirit has been a surprisingly good sb with a heavy white splash and greater aggro tilt.
the only difference i might make to sb is more aggressive gy hate, as at the moment i dealing with bridge vines with a mix of militants, paths and pithing needles but its a huge struggle if they combo off, and scooze is only good if they wiff a little or try to play fair magic.
if anyone wanted to experiment with this build the weakest slots are eone and avatar but i dont think theres better options for now.
i know this is pretty drastically different from other builds hear but please still share any ideas you have
also @tokaok with your current build your going to take more damage from fetching and shocking yourself that would would from just paying the 4 life from dismember, with 15 mb black sources you might as well run push as your mb removal and sb assassin trophy as a catch all. also Abrupt Decay is pretty solid.
thats looking pretty solid the only difference i would make is - 1 eone for +1 hexdrinker (top decking eones is horrible and apart from turn 1 eone which is still the decks best opener, hexdrinker is a better cretre)
i would also be tempted to drop either 1 rancor or aspect for +1 vines, but that's personal preference
have you tried Force of Vigor out yet? if so hows it playing? (i've yet to trial it)
the meta at the moment is very very gy heavy and scooze is essential to win in a number of matchups, if the meta ever switches back to jund, burn, mardu pyromancer then will be the time to mb troll over scooze i think.
trolls a strict upgrade on tusker, so 2 of in devotion builds that still run it. but i dont think its included over anything else.