far tron has always been a bad matchup for the deck (especially the eldrazi version) ive mostly written the matcup off outside of a white splash for path charm, and teeg.
this is what i think will become the new optimal build after release (unless we get some more awesome cards to add, which is very possible)
(with the curved lowered by 14 one drops, and blossoming def over vines it may well be worth doing the land count to 20 as unless we draw steel leaf 2 mana is more that sufficient for the first 3 turns)
after many games the decks optimum opening turns still seems to be
turn one: eone
turn two: fetch millinat + narnam
although now
turn one: 1 two powered one drop
turn two: savage swipe, then rancor
seems as good and may be worth expanding on in the future.
This is a pretty rough cut and I'm not sure how many fetch lands I should increase the mana base by to optimize Narnam Renegade. Could also likely get away with a singleton copy of Mutavault, due to the lack of GG in casting costs.
12 fetchlands is optimal, although 8 can work well enough
mutavault is bad without tribal synagis.
i very highly recommend you read the super primer on the first post of this thread (it has a lot of information from a lot of sources and individuals and will help you avoid the basic pitfalls)
as a general run never run 4 dismembers, you cast 2 in a game and that 8 life down the drain. you cast three and crack a fetchlands or 2 and your opponent only has to deal 5-6 damage to close the game. (2 bolts or one solid attack from a gurmag or a flipped thing in the ice)
i think not running e ones is a mistake, they are easily one of the more resistant creatures for the deck
strangleroot geist is arguably the best card in the deck, its good in every matchup, and has a lot of synagis going for it.
4 treetop villages tend to be a mistake as they are bad in multiples and can very easily slow the deck down by a turn. they are good turn 4+ when you have 3 lands and are topdecking 1 drops or lands, and if you get boardwipe. but very very rarly if your on the aggressive start.
sb
you need life gain especially with fetch lands and dissmsbers, otherwise you may as well concede against burn.
you need something to help counter (reduce the impact of) board wipes as these are the biggest blowout you can face and in modern they happen your turn 2-3.
Repudiate // Replicate is just bad, if you what to stop an ability run pithing needle, and if you what an extra creature soc speed run a token generator or another good creature.
without targeted discard ir kill spells goyf doesnt far very well (hes been tried alot and is normally a 1/2 or 2/3) he also has only 1 devotion and no native abilities or counter synergy. millantant on the other hand is a one mana layline for spell slinger decks, which can straight up win games against dredge, phoenix, hollow one and storm. it also dose a lot of work against deathshadow w/u control, fairies and b/w smallpox.
so personally i would keep the dryad, the place i would cut would be rhonas (less good in the current meta) and maybe a avatar or a pump spell.
this would give us
14 one drop
7-8 2 drops
4 three drops
which is the ideal curve the decks wanted for a long time. (and only not had due to the awful state of one drops available to us)
i agree that the lvl 6 progenitus is going to be very rare, but the lvl 3 almost hexproof seems a lot more doable and consistent. if the snake dose well i might have to push back up the number of rancors in the deck as its the only pump that can reach it once its lvl 3. (i would also point out that if the snake becomes a 3-4 of in the deck it may make pelt collector a stronger choice than eone due to the die trigger as i fell that once this thing starts to get big your opponent is going to make it priority 1 as they will not be able to aford to deal with a 6/6 progenatus )
Just seen him as well. I will definitely try as a 2 of, as I feel multiples may be a little underwhelming.
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
getting the perfect hand isnt to common, turn twos or a turn three are far more common. and thats means we can have mana for answers. ive found that turn 1 is more offen than not a setting up turn, getting down a neonate or a adept or just looting for a better starting hand. are far more common that all in turn 1 double hollow one and vengevine.
i really think that blue is going to become more vital to the deck over time. the more ive played in the curret meta the more i find my self using izzet charm as a counter spell first and looting spell second. it may end up being we need mb Stubborn Denial to really make the non-random version of this deck shine and move to a more tempo style of play rather than all in combo
the card im really hoping to see reprinted is basking rootwalla, as this would really help the consitatcy of late game vengevines as well as adding some sudo card advantage that doesn't require gy interaction.
what are peoples thoughts on 2-3 sb Seasoned Pyromancer vs control? 4 power, 3 mana, loot 2 (2 power and draw 2) it look like a strong possibility in the BTE and vengevine builds
also what are peoples thoughts on Fists of Flame? as turn 2 hollow one, angler or adept, turn three cast this then inquiry, and your swinging with a 9/x trample.
I love the wurm card! This is some serious pump the overload seems a little to expensive to be viable. My main issue against this is that it can only target your stuff, turning your opponent ulamog or medaling mage into a big (but vanilla creture) seems like it would have been very potent. Also a shame about soc speed. If it had either of the upgrades I would consider running it but as is it's only really worth while with e one (as the counters still add to its mass) Militant, and a already killed strangle root.
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
Horizon spoiler
First new card for us
Strict upgrade of prey upon
Savage swipe g
Soc
target creture you control gets +2/+2 until end of turn if it has 2 power.
Then it fight creture you don't control.
This works extremely well with narnams, dryads, strangleroot, and eones.
Shame about lack of instant speed as then it may have been as good as one of our hexproof u pump spells. Buy probably an auto include along side dissmeber going forwards for mono green builds.
while playing war set there where quite a few cards that leapt out at me a solid budget options for the deck.
first new tefair seems like a solid addition, making day of judgment/other board wipes and the warden for he split card instant speed is nice, as is the lock against other control decks and the stopping of combat tricks. this paired with some solid (almost unconditional) removal with card draw, seems this it should be at least 2 of maybe a 4 of
Narset, Parter of Veils as a sb and maybe mainboard, against phoenix, hollow one, dreadge, control, ect
Dovin's Veto, strict upgrade on sb negates
Ashiok, Dream Render seems like a solid sb option, fo alot of the modern meta
and maybe Dovin, Hand of Control as 1 of mb for stall against aggro, and a general tax effect that hits most decks in modern.
Tyrant's Scorn is one im on the fence about as it deals with anything but it is 2 mana.
with the amount of cheaper effective walkers in the set, i feel like there's a raff capashen ships mage version of the deck that's viable
Hi!
I've been lurking here for quite some time. My main deck is rUG evolve, but as it has had some rough times lately i've decided to try something different. This is sort of Gruul stompy, where i use atarka's command as pump spell instead of devotion. Maindeck relics and vines are there to hate the topdecks.
It's very much work in progress still, but any comments w'd be appreciated.
the red green version of the deck when you drop the devotion part of the deck just becomes a bad zoo deck. but as a rule i would run
12 fetchlands
4 narnams (arguably the best 1 drop)
4 krid apes
4 eones (better synergy with apes and narnams than pelt)
4 militant
2 scooze
4 giest
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 bolts
4 commands
as a starting point.
from hear you can either go back in the +1 counter route with avatar (which works well with devotion) or more go wide with pump with burning tree and bushwacker or go taller and with mb blood moons with a haste breade build.
if you go red/green aggro i honestly wouldn't bother with spell breaker, i would use the red to go for a lower more aggressive build with either more one drops (goblin guilds ect), or some card advantage with light up the stage. if these builds are what you would want to explore more you may have better luck on the Zoo thread.
i've been trying to evaluate some of the strongest new walkers for the cascade variation of the deck from war.
hear are my conclusions so far
Ashiok, Dream Render: looks like a solid option for those with a fair blue splash, solid againt gy hate and slows down decks like deathshadow and burn with are historicly bad mackups and due to its static interaction with fetch lands. also a possible combo wincon along side Kaya, Orzhov Usurper but its fringe at best. (my evaluation SB only and only in specific metas)
Dovin, Hand of Control: the tax is a solid one, and should again help against burn, and the damage negation is the same as the solidly main boardable gideon, the lack of a clock on him as well is disappointing, so depeding on meta shift into more storm style combo deck, i could see him being usful,
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage: as one of the less utilized aspects of restore balance is discard, this seems like a solid option for a dedicate build. it would have to be very non traditional and very different from what we are currently used to from a balance deck, but i can see some solid potential with some time and dedicated brewing.
Karn, the Great Creator: we would need the hate artifacts to tutor to matter, maybe in a tezz march build? as it allows the deck to have sb pithing needles and explosives ect.
Teferi, Time Raveler: is my favorite for the deck. being able to deal with a threat and/or chalice on 0, while drawing a card and effectively neutralizing all counter magic seems like a extremely powerful sb addition, maybe mainboardable? its a shame his +1 is pretty useless to us (anyone one got ideas of ways to possibly abusing this?.
Sarkhan the Masterless: ok bear with me hear. in a walker heavy deck (3 tefs, 3 gids, 3 dovins and maybe one other) 2-3 sarkhans give the deck a wincon and clock by basically turning evey walker on the field into a evasive gideon, to walkers and a sarkan and you have 12 damadge a turn. wild also providing a powerful chump blocker for the slightly earlier game. to make this work the deck would need a dedicated superfriends build, i dont thing it would be as powerul as nahiri-em combo but may be a solid budget option depending on standard meta.
Second both soul scar mage and vapor snag (having a card that can deal with any blocker and can be used to stop removal is hugely usful)
I would also add stormchaser mage to the list.
I've also seen some solid competitive lists playing a single jori en, ruin diver. As another threat/card advantage engine
Next don't bother with mana leak, (remand is ok but max three) as 2 mana counter spells will slow your game plan. Mutagenic growth or lava spike would be stronger options
I would also drop mission breifing for chart's or light up the stage.
Serum Visions is also a class A cantrip that's can be a solid inclusion.
I would also add 1 wandering fumarole to the lands (as you are on a budget your going to struggle for fast lands and fumarol is the best slow land and some serious lategame potencal)
A couple of asult strobes are also extremely powerful addions.
Desecrated Tomb reminds me a lot of bridge from below like they are both different sides of the same coin
has anyone tried a bridgevine deck combining the two? (also being able to dreadge a creature, sac bloodghast reanimate bloodghasts and stick a bushwacker seems like a very solid game plan with either a bridget or a tomb)
this is what i think will become the new optimal build after release (unless we get some more awesome cards to add, which is very possible)
4x Dryad Militant
4x Experiment One
2x Hexdrinker
4x Narnam Renegade
3x Avatar of the Resolute
3x Scavenging Ooze
4x Strangleroot Geist
Enchantment (3)
3x Rancor
Instant (7)
3x Aspect of Hydra
3x Blossoming Defense
1x Dismember
Sorcery (2)
2x Savage Swipe
4x Forest
3x Horizon Canopy
1x Treetop Village
4x Prismatic Vista
4x Windswept Heath
4x Wooded Foothills
(with the curved lowered by 14 one drops, and blossoming def over vines it may well be worth doing the land count to 20 as unless we draw steel leaf 2 mana is more that sufficient for the first 3 turns)
after many games the decks optimum opening turns still seems to be
turn one: eone
turn two: fetch millinat + narnam
although now
turn one: 1 two powered one drop
turn two: savage swipe, then rancor
seems as good and may be worth expanding on in the future.
12 fetchlands is optimal, although 8 can work well enough
mutavault is bad without tribal synagis.
i very highly recommend you read the super primer on the first post of this thread (it has a lot of information from a lot of sources and individuals and will help you avoid the basic pitfalls)
as a general run never run 4 dismembers, you cast 2 in a game and that 8 life down the drain. you cast three and crack a fetchlands or 2 and your opponent only has to deal 5-6 damage to close the game. (2 bolts or one solid attack from a gurmag or a flipped thing in the ice)
Deathgorge Scavenger is also very bad, either run scavenging ooze-(3 of max) or steel leaf champion in this slot
i think not running e ones is a mistake, they are easily one of the more resistant creatures for the deck
strangleroot geist is arguably the best card in the deck, its good in every matchup, and has a lot of synagis going for it.
4 treetop villages tend to be a mistake as they are bad in multiples and can very easily slow the deck down by a turn. they are good turn 4+ when you have 3 lands and are topdecking 1 drops or lands, and if you get boardwipe. but very very rarly if your on the aggressive start.
sb
you need life gain especially with fetch lands and dissmsbers, otherwise you may as well concede against burn.
you need something to help counter (reduce the impact of) board wipes as these are the biggest blowout you can face and in modern they happen your turn 2-3.
Repudiate // Replicate is just bad, if you what to stop an ability run pithing needle, and if you what an extra creature soc speed run a token generator or another good creature.
so personally i would keep the dryad, the place i would cut would be rhonas (less good in the current meta) and maybe a avatar or a pump spell.
this would give us
14 one drop
7-8 2 drops
4 three drops
which is the ideal curve the decks wanted for a long time. (and only not had due to the awful state of one drops available to us)
i agree that the lvl 6 progenitus is going to be very rare, but the lvl 3 almost hexproof seems a lot more doable and consistent. if the snake dose well i might have to push back up the number of rancors in the deck as its the only pump that can reach it once its lvl 3. (i would also point out that if the snake becomes a 3-4 of in the deck it may make pelt collector a stronger choice than eone due to the die trigger as i fell that once this thing starts to get big your opponent is going to make it priority 1 as they will not be able to aford to deal with a 6/6 progenatus )
Indo think this is what the deck needs as one thing I've noticed is the games that I tend to win are games when I just stick 3 one drops in the first 2 turns, and having this as also my turn three play seems very nice, I agree soc speed is a big let down but at least it's not another card (like when they hit under aspect )
i really think that blue is going to become more vital to the deck over time. the more ive played in the curret meta the more i find my self using izzet charm as a counter spell first and looting spell second. it may end up being we need mb Stubborn Denial to really make the non-random version of this deck shine and move to a more tempo style of play rather than all in combo
the card im really hoping to see reprinted is basking rootwalla, as this would really help the consitatcy of late game vengevines as well as adding some sudo card advantage that doesn't require gy interaction.
also what are peoples thoughts on Fists of Flame? as turn 2 hollow one, angler or adept, turn three cast this then inquiry, and your swinging with a 9/x trample.
So boarderline
The basic fetchland on the other hand, auto 4 of (solong as it stays cheap)
First new card for us
Strict upgrade of prey upon
Savage swipe g
Soc
target creture you control gets +2/+2 until end of turn if it has 2 power.
Then it fight creture you don't control.
This works extremely well with narnams, dryads, strangleroot, and eones.
Shame about lack of instant speed as then it may have been as good as one of our hexproof u pump spells. Buy probably an auto include along side dissmeber going forwards for mono green builds.
growth spiral, seems like a natural fit for the deck, (possibly over some knuckle blades and a courser?)
Nicol Bolas, the Ravager as a 1-2 off, seems like the first decent 4 drop dragon since thunderbreak regent
Sarkhan, Fireblood seems like a solid engine for the deck as well as ramp
my current outline is this
1x Breeding Pool
3x City of Brass
2x Forest
1x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
1x Island
2x Misty Rainforest
2x Mountain
2x Raging Ravine
2x Steam Vents
2x Stomping Ground
4x Wooded Foothills
4x Birds of Paradise
2x Nicol Bolas, the Ravager
1x Niv-Mizzet, Parun
3x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Thunderbreak Regent
Instant (14)
2x Draconic Roar
4x Growth Spiral
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Remand
4x Serum Visions
Planeswalker (4)
4x Sarkhan, Fireblood
2x Domri, Anarch of Bolas
the deck currently has 3 flexy slots that i'm still undecided on
as is the decks seems pretty consistent as turn 1 and 2 interaction and/or ramp, and turn 3 dragon.
niv adds a solid alt wincon
what stuff have i missed and is there anything that will just not function or work well?
the other card i've considering is Kiora, Behemoth Beckoner and running 3 mb mandrills as she also acts as ramp and card draw
first new tefair seems like a solid addition, making day of judgment/other board wipes and the warden for he split card instant speed is nice, as is the lock against other control decks and the stopping of combat tricks. this paired with some solid (almost unconditional) removal with card draw, seems this it should be at least 2 of maybe a 4 of
Narset, Parter of Veils as a sb and maybe mainboard, against phoenix, hollow one, dreadge, control, ect
Dovin's Veto, strict upgrade on sb negates
Ashiok, Dream Render seems like a solid sb option, fo alot of the modern meta
and maybe Dovin, Hand of Control as 1 of mb for stall against aggro, and a general tax effect that hits most decks in modern.
Tyrant's Scorn is one im on the fence about as it deals with anything but it is 2 mana.
with the amount of cheaper effective walkers in the set, i feel like there's a raff capashen ships mage version of the deck that's viable
the red green version of the deck when you drop the devotion part of the deck just becomes a bad zoo deck. but as a rule i would run
12 fetchlands
4 narnams (arguably the best 1 drop)
4 krid apes
4 eones (better synergy with apes and narnams than pelt)
4 militant
2 scooze
4 giest
2 Ghor-Clan Rampager
4 bolts
4 commands
as a starting point.
from hear you can either go back in the +1 counter route with avatar (which works well with devotion) or more go wide with pump with burning tree and bushwacker or go taller and with mb blood moons with a haste breade build.
if you go red/green aggro i honestly wouldn't bother with spell breaker, i would use the red to go for a lower more aggressive build with either more one drops (goblin guilds ect), or some card advantage with light up the stage. if these builds are what you would want to explore more you may have better luck on the Zoo thread.
hear are my conclusions so far
Ashiok, Dream Render: looks like a solid option for those with a fair blue splash, solid againt gy hate and slows down decks like deathshadow and burn with are historicly bad mackups and due to its static interaction with fetch lands. also a possible combo wincon along side Kaya, Orzhov Usurper but its fringe at best. (my evaluation SB only and only in specific metas)
Dovin, Hand of Control: the tax is a solid one, and should again help against burn, and the damage negation is the same as the solidly main boardable gideon, the lack of a clock on him as well is disappointing, so depeding on meta shift into more storm style combo deck, i could see him being usful,
Davriel, Rogue Shadowmage: as one of the less utilized aspects of restore balance is discard, this seems like a solid option for a dedicate build. it would have to be very non traditional and very different from what we are currently used to from a balance deck, but i can see some solid potential with some time and dedicated brewing.
Karn, the Great Creator: we would need the hate artifacts to tutor to matter, maybe in a tezz march build? as it allows the deck to have sb pithing needles and explosives ect.
Teferi, Time Raveler: is my favorite for the deck. being able to deal with a threat and/or chalice on 0, while drawing a card and effectively neutralizing all counter magic seems like a extremely powerful sb addition, maybe mainboardable? its a shame his +1 is pretty useless to us (anyone one got ideas of ways to possibly abusing this?.
Sarkhan the Masterless: ok bear with me hear. in a walker heavy deck (3 tefs, 3 gids, 3 dovins and maybe one other) 2-3 sarkhans give the deck a wincon and clock by basically turning evey walker on the field into a evasive gideon, to walkers and a sarkan and you have 12 damadge a turn. wild also providing a powerful chump blocker for the slightly earlier game. to make this work the deck would need a dedicated superfriends build, i dont thing it would be as powerul as nahiri-em combo but may be a solid budget option depending on standard meta.
1x Island
1x Mountain
4x Scalding Tarn
3x Spirebluff Canal
4x Steam Vents
4x Wooded Foothills
2x Electrodominance
1x Izzet Charm
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Manamorphose
2x Surgical Extraction
Sorcery (15)
3x Ancestral Vision
4x Faithless Looting
4x Finale of Promise
4x Living End
4x Arclight Phoenix
4x Bloodghast
4x Street Wraith
4x Striped Riverwinder
I would also add stormchaser mage to the list.
I've also seen some solid competitive lists playing a single jori en, ruin diver. As another threat/card advantage engine
Next don't bother with mana leak, (remand is ok but max three) as 2 mana counter spells will slow your game plan. Mutagenic growth or lava spike would be stronger options
I would also drop mission breifing for chart's or light up the stage.
Serum Visions is also a class A cantrip that's can be a solid inclusion.
I would also add 1 wandering fumarole to the lands (as you are on a budget your going to struggle for fast lands and fumarol is the best slow land and some serious lategame potencal)
A couple of asult strobes are also extremely powerful addions.
has anyone tried a bridgevine deck combining the two? (also being able to dreadge a creature, sac bloodghast reanimate bloodghasts and stick a bushwacker seems like a very solid game plan with either a bridget or a tomb)