Why run Death Shadow at all if you said you prefer pyro and delver? I haven't seen too many delver/shadow variants have much success. One or the other is much more solidified. My biggest criticism is only 2 snapcasters. If you had a more aggressive game plan then having only 2 is ok I think. Otherwise, I personally haven't played with disrupting shoal myself but I gotta imagine it's just not gonna be up to par. Easy to imagine it as a pseudo force of will until your opponent played eldrazi and it's totally dead
I'm a bit surprised you elected to revoke thought scour and the delve creature package since it's so powerful, but it does make you less graveyard reliant which is a plus! List certainly doesn't look bad! I'm not sure about the counterspells you chose but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with. What I am sure is that 2 dismembers and 1 push looks veeerrrryyyyy light on hard removal (exempting bolt). Might wanna add another push or a terminate or 2.
Depends. Sometimes it's just a 2 mana force spike, especially in the early game. Obviously it's just strictly worse than mana leak then. but it shines later in the longer matchups when you can choose to either dump mana or graveyard trash to keep the spell relevant. Could just be I've been running well and getting lucky with it, or could be the late game relevance is actually significant but nonetheless I've enjoyed it, and it hasn't seemed to clash too strongly with my ability to throw down delve threats.
Spicy list, and good write up! Obviously not delver but it's cool, different flavors of grixis are always neat. I suppose my biggest concern would be it feels like you are kinda playing a sorta bad version of both delver and grixis control. Like it has a lot of the core grixis cards and such, but without delvers it doesn't usually apply pressure too often, and without cryptic it looks like it would be difficult playing the long game. Cryptic is just really good. So I'm not sure what it gains by dropping those cards in particular. Then again, you're the guy with the 4-0... not me lol
Separately, I was really hoping that pyro would be better with the inclusion of opt, but I found it about the same. It's either really good when the opponent doesn't have an answer, or just bad when it dies or even if it just gets outclassed. So I'm moving a different direction. Gonna have my list focus a little more on delve threats again, with a 2/2 split on the banana king and his pet fish. Also, I finally picked up a Vendillion Clique so I'll give that a shot. Feels like grixis lists are continuing to move more onto the UB side of the color spectrum and away from red, and I can't blame them especially with UBx shadow lists still having success.
Logic knot has increasingly become one of my favorite cards in the deck and it's a shame I can only really run one. It's also becoming increasingly difficult to decide how I want to split up my removal and countermagic.
I think my main questions for you guys are this: is pyro worth it for you, and how has mainboard discard been? I'm inclined to run a pair of Thoughtseize in the main. For now, here's my current list, subject to change.
Haven't yet gotten to test at modern night with Opt in the deck but just from running some trial games I also found Opt to be fantastic... the deck feels extremely sleek and refined and that's only been with 3. Think I'll try the full 4 but I'm not yet sure what to cut yet. I've also started running a pair of Thoughtseize main deck but I'm not sure if that's correct over Inquisition.
One of the other things I working on is deciding which grindy cards I should be putting into my board. I've toyed with Painful Truths, Rise // Fall, even JVP so far just for the grindy matchups. Haven't yet given Lily a shot yet (either of them). Would definitely like some input on that!
Now that all cards of Ixalan are spoiled, do we see other options besides Opt as 'potentials'?
Chart a Course is a reasonable draw spell, probably on par with Night's Whisper for us and the lack of life loss is relevant. Perilous Voyage is one of the better disperse type effects we've seen a while so it's worth noting. Entrancing Melody is... fair? A fairly reasonably costed take control effect, but effectively useless against opposing delve creatures and eldrazi. Also sorcery speed. Someone on reddit said Jace, Cunning Castaway would probably find his home best in a delver type deck. I'm inclined to agree but I don't know if it's good enough for modern, but I'd like to test a copy, maybe 2.
That's about it, didn't see much in the black or red colors this time around for us but I could be wrong. Opt is far and away the card that will have the most immediate impact for us since we get a few more playable cantrips main deck. Some of the other spells are prob worth testing but I didn't see any other auto-includes.
Hello, I haven't played delver in about a year now, but I saw "Chart a Course" get spoiled in IXA and it made me think of delver of secrets. Just thought I'd mention it here. What do you guys think?
Initial impressions: 2 cmc sorcery isn't where delver wants to be.
4 seconds later: realize this wouldn't work as an eot play anyway.
I think it's worth testing. 2 mana for 2 cards is as good as it gets, but I'm pretty sure jamming 4 in and calling it good is a mistake. Also, I think it fits the merfolk shell better than delver.
Agree with that, I don't play merfolk but it looks somewhat more suitable for them. That being said, it's the best draw spell I've seen for blue in a cool minute (albeit a smaller one), and the lack of life loss that Night's Whisper has is relevant. Could be a one or two of mainboard, or just a sideboard card for matchups where drawing a few extra cards is relevant. I would for sure only be including it in Pyro heavy builds though considering how much easier it gets to ensure we are attacking with a creature.
That sounds like a strong plan. What would a decklist look like do you think? When probe left, it was simultaneously replaced by push, so I'm not yet entirely sure what I would be cutting to make space or for how many of the new cantrip
Well, well, a new cantrip of interest. Opt is getting a reprint in Ixalan, bringing smiles to blue players like ourselves. The question is where does it slide into the deck? Replacement for visions or for scour? Visions sets up our delvers better and thought scour enables our fast Tasigurs or fish. But opt is clearly a fantastic addition so surely it goes somewhere...
Question to those running Young Pyromancer: How often do you find yourself tapping out on turn 2 to play the dude? And when you do, what are some of the best signs to look for that it's safe? Only against entirely uninteractive decks like storm or Ad Nauseum or is this something I should be ok doing against other strategies that may run removal?
One of the things I seem to get stuck doing is holding one in my hand for too long to try and get guaranteed value off of it. Sometimes I do wait though, and I've spent my cantrips and bolts already so I have little gas to fuel the little firey dude or I'm just at a stage of the game where he doesn't seem like much of a threat now and I would rather hold up countermagic. Pyro has been fun, and when he's good he's awesome but I get stuck sometimes with when I should be casting him.
I think Kommand is a find card to run even without the snaps... honestly the deck is gonna be much worse without the snaps so I would focus on them asap. Kolaghan's Command however is a great card in grindy matchups... bring back a Tasigur and kill and opposing snapcaster, or draw step discard/shock them when they're out of cards. Lots of cute plays to make with it even without snappy. I don't know how often I'd wanna bring back a Delver unless I could set it up to flip immediately. Delver loses lots of value as the game goes on.
I'd say Collective Brutality is a great card to get but maybe not quite as good. It is however, probably the single best card we have against burn especially and does well against other aggro decks where multiple modes are relevant. But I'm not sold on it being main-deckable in the way Kommand is.
Separate note: I love switching up my flex slot(s) and I think I'll be giving Logic Knot a try this time. I'm down to just the 3 Tasigur as my delve cards so I think it's fine, and I imagine it as just counterspell most times. I'm not sure it would be better than Deprive, but it seems to fit my build, and I like the card
*Quick edit: I like having at least one card in the side dedicated for grindy matchups (lots of URx in my meta). Lately I've been using Painful Truths but a lot of the other grixis players at my LGS have Rise // Fall. Never played that card personally... how has your guys' performance been with either of those?
I love Logic Knot as a card and it totally slipped my mind that the card would be more effective without as many delve creatures eating away the graveyard. And while I totally advocate Deprive as a one of (maybe 2) in the main board, how does Pyro help with that plan? Deprive asks to bounce a land, not a permanent...
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
Firstly, I'd like to thank you guys for the advice on big mana hate. Switched to 3 rejection in the board and found it more successful than the molten rains I was running before.
Secondly, I'd like to also advocate Young Pyromancer. I'm not playing the full 4 like deathstroke is but I switched to 3 Pyros from two lately and I've been enjoying it before. Fair decks have to deal with the tokens leftover if they remove it and left unchecked this dude runs away with games (especially in multiples). I know this is hardly new information but I've very much been enjoying the success with him. My meta has quite a large portion by comparison of URx decks and even in matchups where he just dies immediately it feels nice getting just one or two tokens off with him.
What's the general consensus on Remand currently? I understand that this deck generally can't play tempo all the time so it's often better used as a mana leak, or removal spell or some other hard answer but a couple of the lists I've seen on mtggoldfish (which seem to have been popping up a bit more) have gone to running two copies of the card again. I mean it seems like a pretty hit or miss card depending on the matchup so I'm really not sure what to think
How much success have you guys found with your big mana hate? I'm still fairly new to the deck and learning some of it's intricacies but one of the sticking points I've been having when constructing my sideboard is how much I should bother with fighting some of the big mana decks and what tools are best.
Currently unsure on whether Molten Rain is the correct choice. I don't have Fulminators right now but I do have Ceremonious Rejection and Blood Moon available to me. But then I'm not even sure if having 3 slots dedicated to tron variants and a few others is a good plan. Rejection also can catch eldrazi (sometimes) and works against affinity but has little use outside of those. Blood Moon is arguably more powerful against those decks and can work against other 3 color decks as well but requires setup... which isn't always perfectly feasible. Molten Rain I like because racing big mana decks feels right so the 2 points of damage is relevant but sometimes the cost is restrictive and it's mostly just a delay tactic rather than a blowout. Then of course, I'm still not sure 3 slots should even be dedicated to these.
So what's been working for you guys best? I'm sticking with Molten Rain temporarily I think but I would like to hear from someone more experienced.
Really awesome to see a straight delver list place that well! Just a nice reminder that the deck is still good without shadow. It is an interesting take on it certainly... only 3 delve fatties, 2 pyromancer, no shadow, only 18 lands, some main board inquisition and 2 copies of Remand. Only 2 push but 3 terminate and a Murdurous Cut to accompany it (I suppose that's why the 1 less delve threat).
Nothing too extravagant but the copies of Remand are interesting just considering most people seemed to have dropped it with how cheap threats can be nowadays (Shadow the obvious case). Also, this guy does not **** around with big creatures apparently... 3 Terminate, the single Murderous Cut and then the 2 copies of Dismember in the side indicate that. I'm really surprised to see him on only 18 lands too... I thought I was being greedy with 19. I guess he gets to blind flip Delver more often though. Anyway, really cool to see this place well!
Black has gotten some good stuff too though between Lily, push and brutality and that helps. Supreme Will is prob too expensive for what we want... I'm curious as to where you think Nimble Obsrtuctionist would slot in though?
I'm a bit surprised you elected to revoke thought scour and the delve creature package since it's so powerful, but it does make you less graveyard reliant which is a plus! List certainly doesn't look bad! I'm not sure about the counterspells you chose but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with. What I am sure is that 2 dismembers and 1 push looks veeerrrryyyyy light on hard removal (exempting bolt). Might wanna add another push or a terminate or 2.
Separately, I was really hoping that pyro would be better with the inclusion of opt, but I found it about the same. It's either really good when the opponent doesn't have an answer, or just bad when it dies or even if it just gets outclassed. So I'm moving a different direction. Gonna have my list focus a little more on delve threats again, with a 2/2 split on the banana king and his pet fish. Also, I finally picked up a Vendillion Clique so I'll give that a shot. Feels like grixis lists are continuing to move more onto the UB side of the color spectrum and away from red, and I can't blame them especially with UBx shadow lists still having success.
Logic knot has increasingly become one of my favorite cards in the deck and it's a shame I can only really run one. It's also becoming increasingly difficult to decide how I want to split up my removal and countermagic.
I think my main questions for you guys are this: is pyro worth it for you, and how has mainboard discard been? I'm inclined to run a pair of Thoughtseize in the main. For now, here's my current list, subject to change.
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Polluted Delta
2 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Blood Crypt
2 Island
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
1 Darkslick Shores
1 Spirebluff Canal
Creatures
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
2 Gurmag Angler
2 Young Pyromancer
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Serum Visions
4 Thought Scour
3 Opt
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Fatal Push
2 Terminate
2 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Spell Pierce
1 Logic Knot
2 Kolaghan's Command
2 Dispel
2 Ceremonious Rejection
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Thoughtseize
2 Countersquall
1 Rakdos Charm
1 Rise // Fall
1 Painful Truths
1 Izzet Staticaster
One of the other things I working on is deciding which grindy cards I should be putting into my board. I've toyed with Painful Truths, Rise // Fall, even JVP so far just for the grindy matchups. Haven't yet given Lily a shot yet (either of them). Would definitely like some input on that!
Chart a Course is a reasonable draw spell, probably on par with Night's Whisper for us and the lack of life loss is relevant. Perilous Voyage is one of the better disperse type effects we've seen a while so it's worth noting. Entrancing Melody is... fair? A fairly reasonably costed take control effect, but effectively useless against opposing delve creatures and eldrazi. Also sorcery speed. Someone on reddit said Jace, Cunning Castaway would probably find his home best in a delver type deck. I'm inclined to agree but I don't know if it's good enough for modern, but I'd like to test a copy, maybe 2.
That's about it, didn't see much in the black or red colors this time around for us but I could be wrong. Opt is far and away the card that will have the most immediate impact for us since we get a few more playable cantrips main deck. Some of the other spells are prob worth testing but I didn't see any other auto-includes.
Agree with that, I don't play merfolk but it looks somewhat more suitable for them. That being said, it's the best draw spell I've seen for blue in a cool minute (albeit a smaller one), and the lack of life loss that Night's Whisper has is relevant. Could be a one or two of mainboard, or just a sideboard card for matchups where drawing a few extra cards is relevant. I would for sure only be including it in Pyro heavy builds though considering how much easier it gets to ensure we are attacking with a creature.
One of the things I seem to get stuck doing is holding one in my hand for too long to try and get guaranteed value off of it. Sometimes I do wait though, and I've spent my cantrips and bolts already so I have little gas to fuel the little firey dude or I'm just at a stage of the game where he doesn't seem like much of a threat now and I would rather hold up countermagic. Pyro has been fun, and when he's good he's awesome but I get stuck sometimes with when I should be casting him.
I'd say Collective Brutality is a great card to get but maybe not quite as good. It is however, probably the single best card we have against burn especially and does well against other aggro decks where multiple modes are relevant. But I'm not sold on it being main-deckable in the way Kommand is.
Separate note: I love switching up my flex slot(s) and I think I'll be giving Logic Knot a try this time. I'm down to just the 3 Tasigur as my delve cards so I think it's fine, and I imagine it as just counterspell most times. I'm not sure it would be better than Deprive, but it seems to fit my build, and I like the card
*Quick edit: I like having at least one card in the side dedicated for grindy matchups (lots of URx in my meta). Lately I've been using Painful Truths but a lot of the other grixis players at my LGS have Rise // Fall. Never played that card personally... how has your guys' performance been with either of those?
Awesome to hear your success with the full set of Pyro btw deathstroke. How has the burn matchup been working with that though? There's a lot of burn where I'm at and for me I like have huge beater to stonewall their guides and such... plus it doesn't die to searing blaze
Secondly, I'd like to also advocate Young Pyromancer. I'm not playing the full 4 like deathstroke is but I switched to 3 Pyros from two lately and I've been enjoying it before. Fair decks have to deal with the tokens leftover if they remove it and left unchecked this dude runs away with games (especially in multiples). I know this is hardly new information but I've very much been enjoying the success with him. My meta has quite a large portion by comparison of URx decks and even in matchups where he just dies immediately it feels nice getting just one or two tokens off with him.
What's the general consensus on Remand currently? I understand that this deck generally can't play tempo all the time so it's often better used as a mana leak, or removal spell or some other hard answer but a couple of the lists I've seen on mtggoldfish (which seem to have been popping up a bit more) have gone to running two copies of the card again. I mean it seems like a pretty hit or miss card depending on the matchup so I'm really not sure what to think
Current list for reference:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Young Pyromancer
2 Tasigur, the Golden Fang
1 Gurmag Angler
Spells
3 Fatal Push
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Serum Visions
1 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
4 Thought Scour
3 Mana Leak
3 Terminate
2 Kolaghan's Command
1 Blood Crypt
2 Darkslick Shores
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Steam Vents
2 Swamp
1 Watery Grave
1 Dispel
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Vandalblast
2 Collective Brutality
2 Countersquall
1 Electrolyze
1 Izzet Staticaster
3 Molten Rain
1 Painful Truths
Currently unsure on whether Molten Rain is the correct choice. I don't have Fulminators right now but I do have Ceremonious Rejection and Blood Moon available to me. But then I'm not even sure if having 3 slots dedicated to tron variants and a few others is a good plan. Rejection also can catch eldrazi (sometimes) and works against affinity but has little use outside of those. Blood Moon is arguably more powerful against those decks and can work against other 3 color decks as well but requires setup... which isn't always perfectly feasible. Molten Rain I like because racing big mana decks feels right so the 2 points of damage is relevant but sometimes the cost is restrictive and it's mostly just a delay tactic rather than a blowout. Then of course, I'm still not sure 3 slots should even be dedicated to these.
So what's been working for you guys best? I'm sticking with Molten Rain temporarily I think but I would like to hear from someone more experienced.
Nothing too extravagant but the copies of Remand are interesting just considering most people seemed to have dropped it with how cheap threats can be nowadays (Shadow the obvious case). Also, this guy does not **** around with big creatures apparently... 3 Terminate, the single Murderous Cut and then the 2 copies of Dismember in the side indicate that. I'm really surprised to see him on only 18 lands too... I thought I was being greedy with 19. I guess he gets to blind flip Delver more often though. Anyway, really cool to see this place well!