Saheeli, Sublime Artificer, Flux Channeler and to a lesser extent Karn's Bastion don't feel like they help the game plan much. These cards favor a more grindy game plan, but this deck is very explosive rather than cantripping off. I still have a little bit of faith in Karn's Bastion but I find it usually functions as a very mana intensive version of Forge of Heroes.
I agree with all this.
I'm replacing Saheeli, Sublime Artificer with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame when I get a copy. The reality is that 9/10 times you'll have a spells to cast that are more efficient to your game plan than using Karn's Bastion, and that means 9/10 games you'd just prefer it to be an Island
I need to test Flux Channeler a bit more before I decide on it.
I'll give Planebound Accomplice a try. Pity has to be from hand (not command zone) otherwise it would be busted really.
My friends are trying Narset's Reversal among their decks at the moment, so I'll wait to get generally feedback. I've been telling them "I bet it's not as good as you think" talk. But you always remember the times that it did something really good, and not the other times when it would have just been better to be a counterspell.
Force of Negation has been pretty nice. I think this is one of the decks that doesn't see much benefit from it because we don't have the ability to go off on our opponents turns. The low end is that it's a Negate for one more blue mana on your turn, but the high end is that it's a second copy of Force of Will. I might end up cutting this one after I play with it some more.
Yeah I have not gotten on the Force of Negation band wagon yet, as I normally don't use my counterspells for control, rather to protect my own game plans. It's just how most of my decks are built as very combo orientated. But the more competitive the meta, the more Force of Negation is going to win you games.
For M20 spoilers, there's some cool cards. Chandra, Novice Pyromancer is really good just due to the fact that she costs R but makes RR, makes her one of the easiest walkers to make infinite mana with in a loop, and can burn your opponents out with her minus ability as well. I think Chandra, Acolyte of Flame is too narrow to be useful. Drawn from Dreams is looking pretty tempting to me, but I also love card draw. Flood of Tears being sorcery bums me out a bit, but the high end of this is pretty nuts. Repeated Reverberation seems better than I initially thought, I was originally thinking about it as a means to get extra value off my loyalty abilities, but then I realized it's a Time Stretch if you use it on an extra turn spell. I usually don't like duplicate cards, but this seems like it could be useful, and the low end for us is paying 4 mana to copy Will's minus ability and draw four extra cards with it. Manifold Key is another version of Voltaic Key but it doesn't go infinite as well, making its primary use to untap The Chain Veil or rocks to climb a mana ladder.
I actually like Chandra, Acolyte of Flame. Sure the elemental tokens don't do anything, but the loyalty counter for Rowen, allow you to ultimate over two turns, which quite frankly is exactly what I want.
The casting instant and sorcery from graveyard isn't probably going to be used that much, but a game where you have a Savor the Moment is going to be great, and there are a few cantrip type cards to get value from, bot much, but some. Definitely keen to try her.
I believe, based off what you've said, you misread a couple of cards you talked about. Chandra, Acolyte of Flame can't provide blockers, as the tokens are sacrificed at end-step. And Repeated Reverberation doesn't copy two things, it copies one thing twice. So using Will after it would draw 6 cards and reduce costs by 6. Chandra looks worse without being able to provide blockers, but I don't think your evaluation of Repeated Reverberation changes much.
Edit: Also, Chandra, Novice Pyromancer's mana ability is a minus, which makes it worse as well, but still a strong candidate.
Good points. Yeah I actually like Repeated Reverberation a little worse now that I read it properly. There are just more consistent cards you can play.
Not getting the tokens to stick is a little worse with Chandra, Novice Pyromancer, but I'm still going to try her, she speeds up the Rowen plan which is key.
You ever think about adding in Altar of the brood? That way the line can be animatou into nicol bolas in tezzeret -1 for altar infinite blink animatou and bolas back and forth. I was also thinking about adding in the new six since its a 2 drop walker with 2 colors.
I have an Animatou primer (link in my signature) and I've never been a fan of Altar of the Brood as a win condition, even though it allows you to go infinite with Felidar Guardian and Animatou. Honestly I'm always looking for more value from a card rather than straight up combo card with infinite. Like if the deck had a major reanimation plan on opponents creatures, then I'd consider Altar of the Brood as it would give you advantages on that axis when you play the card by itself.
I had Wrenn and Six hallmarked for the deck, but it's just a bit to pricey to purchase at $58. But yes it's great at 2 cmc, a shoe in if you get your hands on one.
I have to agree with 3drinks on this one. Now you're absolutely right about Kaalia of the Vast drawing attention, she is always going to be the one that opponents save removal for 100%.
And you're right Kaalia, Zenith Seeker is going to draw absolutely no attention at all, and opponents will happily leave her alone.
But I think just playing large creatures without a way to get them into play other than simply doing it with a good old fashion mana base would make it no more than a very very casual kitchen table deck. Which is fine, but you've specifically labeled this competitive.
And I mean trying to play the mana denial strategy (land destruction) in this deck is like holding a shotgun to your head.
Sure there is the Sneak Attack, but that is literally one card in your deck. You just can't lean on it that amount. And then the Quicksilver Amulet does require 4 mana, and it is pretty slow.
I feel like a more low to the ground strategy is needed. Have you checked out the low cost Angel, Demon and Dragons?
I don't know exactly what is going to be a viable shell for her, but I think just replacing her with a similar Vast build is not going to work out very well, in my opinion.
Umm, junk rare. Two black makes it hard to construct around for trying to get multi colored cards, and even if you do manage to get cards into graveyard early, even in two colors, probably only going to be a 3/3. The other half of the time it'll be a 2/2 or worse.
The fact that it's ETB means that it doesn't benefit from graveyard at a later stage. At least something like Consuming Aberration scales as the games goes on. So does Tarmogoyf.
I'm sure some people will try to build around it in constructed, but figure out that it's just a little too much effort for a 4/4 flyer (investing resources, time and mana) at best and an over-costed creature the rest of the time.
I remember that ruckuss, but it wasn't due to ambiguity on Mairsil - it was due to people who didn't understad how Quicksilver Elemental worked. I mean, we've had clarification on that for 15 years now. All they had to do was look up Quicksilver Elemental on Gatherer:
10/4/2004 - If you make two copies of an ability that can be activated once a turn, you can activate each of them once a turn.
Oh that silly human race for thinking Magic has complicated interactions. Ridiculous really. I mean I don't even know why we need judges for rules clarification? Seems like everything is pretty, pretty, pretty self explanatory.
I'm just being a little sarcastic for a joke, before I get a troll warning. I post for answers in the rules forum and often I'll get people just quoting paragraphs of the rules, and that doesn't actually help a person like me.
Some of us need it to be said in terms of real interactions. Sure we could look up the official rules, but it looks like goobly goop for 90% of the population.
Do I get to target two different creatures, and because it's an aura it will fall off one of the creatures (when it targets the next one), but I'd still get the ETB/LTB of that creature?
There are 20 changelings which have a cost reduction of 1 from the The Ur-Dragon.
Basically on their own they literally do nothing, so you need a pay off tribal cards that might benefit from ETB triggers or number of cards in play. This is often where I'm trying to figure out whether to keep changelings in hand or play them out. Often I'll keep them in hand unless I really do have a card already that helps with quantity of them in play.
Also there are a number of creatures that have tribal searches, so you can use these to search up changelings. These are not very fast, so it's not like Sisay where it really snowballs hard, like you still have to work for it, and it's a bigger setup, but still gives you versatility to make correct decisions given what you have.
It has a wild variation, it either does nothing and get's crushed, or you get to do massively impressive things. So it's very hit or miss. Just don't look to play it for consistency, but the rewards for a good game are very high.
It's a casual build, but I do feel like it's got quite good decision making, because you have to plan out what effects might benefit you more in the long run. If you think you are interested I'll DM you my most recent list.
Yes, well, I like Najeela because of the warrior tribal. But ... I did disassemble my Najeela after a few days, too. It was just too linear even for me. I know my darling won't like it.
Do you find that Sisay's tutoring ability makes games play out too similarly? I had a Zur "toolbox" once, and eventually I realized that the "toolbox" was actually the same few cards, regardless of my opponents' board states. It didn't matter what they did. I just did my own thing and won.
Too be fair, yeah because you have access to your deck. Unless opponents literally deal with Sisay, then the game does snowball, actually regardless of even how you sequence. Like you have to make some really poor decisions not to get ahead if you're able to just keep using her.
The only problem with Najeela is that it's actually extremely linear in reality. Honestly it's one of the more boring decks I've played, had a shelf life of a few days.
I'm replacing Saheeli, Sublime Artificer with Chandra, Acolyte of Flame when I get a copy. The reality is that 9/10 times you'll have a spells to cast that are more efficient to your game plan than using Karn's Bastion, and that means 9/10 games you'd just prefer it to be an Island
I need to test Flux Channeler a bit more before I decide on it.
I'll give Planebound Accomplice a try. Pity has to be from hand (not command zone) otherwise it would be busted really.
My friends are trying Narset's Reversal among their decks at the moment, so I'll wait to get generally feedback. I've been telling them "I bet it's not as good as you think" talk. But you always remember the times that it did something really good, and not the other times when it would have just been better to be a counterspell.
Yeah I have not gotten on the Force of Negation band wagon yet, as I normally don't use my counterspells for control, rather to protect my own game plans. It's just how most of my decks are built as very combo orientated. But the more competitive the meta, the more Force of Negation is going to win you games.
I'm just going to replace Karn's Bastion with Prismatic Vista. Easy.
I actually like Chandra, Acolyte of Flame. Sure the elemental tokens don't do anything, but the loyalty counter for Rowen, allow you to ultimate over two turns, which quite frankly is exactly what I want.
The casting instant and sorcery from graveyard isn't probably going to be used that much, but a game where you have a Savor the Moment is going to be great, and there are a few cantrip type cards to get value from, bot much, but some. Definitely keen to try her.
Not getting the tokens to stick is a little worse with Chandra, Novice Pyromancer, but I'm still going to try her, she speeds up the Rowen plan which is key.
I had Wrenn and Six hallmarked for the deck, but it's just a bit to pricey to purchase at $58. But yes it's great at 2 cmc, a shoe in if you get your hands on one.
And you're right Kaalia, Zenith Seeker is going to draw absolutely no attention at all, and opponents will happily leave her alone.
But I think just playing large creatures without a way to get them into play other than simply doing it with a good old fashion mana base would make it no more than a very very casual kitchen table deck. Which is fine, but you've specifically labeled this competitive.
And I mean trying to play the mana denial strategy (land destruction) in this deck is like holding a shotgun to your head.
Sure there is the Sneak Attack, but that is literally one card in your deck. You just can't lean on it that amount. And then the Quicksilver Amulet does require 4 mana, and it is pretty slow.
I feel like a more low to the ground strategy is needed. Have you checked out the low cost Angel, Demon and Dragons?
For example Feather, the Redeemed is cheap and synergies with Cloudshift, Justiciar's Portal, Liberate, Long Road Home, Otherworldly Journey, Acrobatic Maneuver, Eerie Interlude.
Mirrorwing Dragon can help with this.
There are even Changelings to make use of the draw in a more low to the ground fashion.
Crib Swap, Graveshifter, Irregular Cohort, Mirror Entity, Taurean Mauler, for example.
I don't know exactly what is going to be a viable shell for her, but I think just replacing her with a similar Vast build is not going to work out very well, in my opinion.
The fact that it's ETB means that it doesn't benefit from graveyard at a later stage. At least something like Consuming Aberration scales as the games goes on. So does Tarmogoyf.
I'm sure some people will try to build around it in constructed, but figure out that it's just a little too much effort for a 4/4 flyer (investing resources, time and mana) at best and an over-costed creature the rest of the time.
I'm just being a little sarcastic for a joke, before I get a troll warning. I post for answers in the rules forum and often I'll get people just quoting paragraphs of the rules, and that doesn't actually help a person like me.
Some of us need it to be said in terms of real interactions. Sure we could look up the official rules, but it looks like goobly goop for 90% of the population.
Verdant Confluence + Eternal Witness/Greenwarden of Murasa
Necromancy has a lot of weird wording.
Do I get to target two different creatures, and because it's an aura it will fall off one of the creatures (when it targets the next one), but I'd still get the ETB/LTB of that creature?
Basically on their own they literally do nothing, so you need a pay off tribal cards that might benefit from ETB triggers or number of cards in play. This is often where I'm trying to figure out whether to keep changelings in hand or play them out. Often I'll keep them in hand unless I really do have a card already that helps with quantity of them in play.
Also there are a number of creatures that have tribal searches, so you can use these to search up changelings. These are not very fast, so it's not like Sisay where it really snowballs hard, like you still have to work for it, and it's a bigger setup, but still gives you versatility to make correct decisions given what you have.
1 The Ur-Dragon
Changelings (21)
1 Universal Automaton
1 Changeling Outcast
1 Amoeboid Changeling
1 Shapesharer
1 Woodland Changeling
1 Skeletal Changeling
1 Fire-Belly Changeling
1 Impostor of the Sixth Pride
1 Crib Swap
1 Moonglove Changeling
1 Mirror Entity
1 Taurean Mauler
1 Mothdust Changeling
1 Avian Changeling
1 Ghostly Changeling
1 Venomous Changeling
1 Irregular Cohort
1 Graveshifter
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Morophon, the Boundless
Search for Changelings or other tribes
1 Seahunter
1 Moggcatcher
1 Skyshroud Poacher
1 Lin Sivvi, Defiant Hero
1 Defiant Vanguard
Shamans
1 Sachi, Daughter of Seshiro
Ally
1 Harabaz Druid
1 Sea Gate Loremaster
Wizard
1 Sage of Fables
1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls
Sliver
1 Gemhide Sliver
1 Manaweft Sliver
1 Harmonic Sliver
1 Sliver Overlord
1 Dragon's Hoard
1 Spit Flame
1 Lathliss, Dragon Queen
Dinosaur
1 Gishath, Sun's Avatar
Druid
1 Gilt-Leaf Archdruid
Scarecrow
1 Reaper King
Sphinx
1 Unesh, Criosphinx Sovereign
Demon
1 Liliana's Contract
Ninja
1 Yuriko, the Tiger's Shadow
Spirit (really just untap)
1 Seedborn Muse
Enchantments
1 Training Grounds
1 Sylvan Library
1 Arcane Adaptation
1 Descendants' Path
1 Intruder Alarm
1 Call to the Kindred
1 Wilderness Reclamation
1 Mirari's Wake
Artifacts
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Scroll Rack
1 Lightning Greaves
Sorcery
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Austere Command
1 Peer Pressure
1 Patriarch's Bidding
Instants
1 Brainstorm
1 Cyclonic Rift
Lands (36)
1 Mutavault
1 Arid Mesa
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Bloodstained Mire
1 Breeding Pool
1 City of Brass
1 Command Tower
1 Exotic Orchard
1 Flooded Strand
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Krosan Verge
1 Mana Confluence
1 Marsh Flats
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Polluted Delta
1 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Savannah
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Scrubland
1 Steam Vents
1 Stomping Ground
1 Taiga
1 Temple Garden
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Volcanic Island
1 Watery Grave
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Forbidden Orchard
It has a wild variation, it either does nothing and get's crushed, or you get to do massively impressive things. So it's very hit or miss. Just don't look to play it for consistency, but the rewards for a good game are very high.
It's a casual build, but I do feel like it's got quite good decision making, because you have to plan out what effects might benefit you more in the long run. If you think you are interested I'll DM you my most recent list.
Gargos, Vicious Warden is just a bazooka, able to mow everything down in mono-green is kind of ridiculous.
There are plenty of instants and enchantments to target it with to keep up killing creatures while maintaining cards in hand to keep doing it.
It's just the six mana that you have to design around making sure you have plenty of ramp in the face of removal.