I play this almost this exact decklist. I find it gets shut down hard by GW variants, anything that runs centaur healers and/or thragtusks (expecially the god-damn thragtusks). Have you found this as well? What do you sideboard in to deal with it? perhaps appetite for brains deserves a mention in terms of removing thrag before it hits the field. Or lilly of the veil?
Not gonna lie, GW is like our nightmare with this deck style.
As you mentioned Thaggie/Healer provide efficient creatures plus life gain, which causes problems for us. For boarding options the two that I've had the most luck with was appetite for brains, and Rakdos, Lord of Riots. The latter is good because the only removal in the average GW deck for it is the charm. Otherwise you just got a 6/6 flier, which makes for a pretty sweet clock.
Another card that is good in this matchup is searing spear, which is good for clearing their X/3s like thaggie and healer, and also for their 2 mana centaur maker. Although dreadbore does the same, it's important to note that the spear can also be used to dome them for the last bit of damage needed.
so is Br Zombies better, or is "Dos Rakis" better.....I dont always play aggro, but when I do, i prefer to play Dos Rakis.
I think the meta is still a little too fresh to know which zombies build is the best. But with BR you can always play rakdos in the sideboard, since he makes a pretty sweet board in against some decks like GW.
Good to see this finally has an official thread, I switched over from Jund Zombies to Rakdos when I found I needed more reach, and I haven't regretted it since. Also Underground connections deserves a mention in the sideboard section due to it's effectiveness against control.
-Highborn Ghoul is our best 2-drop. I've tested Shred-freaks (haste is great on an open board, otherwise he's beyond useless), Gorehouse Chainwalker (see Shred-freak, minus the haste), and Knight of Infamy (pushes through a minor bit more damage against humans/gw aggro, but that's it). Ghoul has the most upside because he dodges the most stuff.
I'd have to say I agree, I love shred-freak against control and frites, since they don't have many x/3s. But against GW midrange, and the mirror, there will be enough blockers for a 2/1 by turn two that I'm hesitant on running them. Highborn, while a bit slower on the control matchups, seems to be the ticket to keeping the clock going.
-Brimstone Volley has proven to be a thorn in my side. 3 mana is way too much to provide the needed flexibility on 22 lands. I always feel like there are better options than sitting there with mana open as opposed to playing dudes or Sign in Blood or even playing a 1-drop and waiting on Searing Spear for combat tricks or reach for one less mana.
This is where I would disagree, BSV, while seeming expensive is something our deck needs in order to provide a large amount of it's reach while not being 4+ mana. Five damage is often enough to finish off an opponent after a good curve out, or enough to take care of a Trostani/Rakdos on the block to keep the beats going. With the way this deck plays I always count on morbid happening. I do agree that keeping mana open is counter intuitive for an early game plan, but after you've had the first 3 turns of playing things the extra five damage acts as insurance to help you reach the end you can't get 5 points for 3 mana with any other card.
I played in a tournament last night and did miserably.
I do not like Lotleth Troll... I don't understand why it's so popular in the deck.
Reasons why the Troll is bad:
I'd much rather play more one drops or rancor on turn 2.
On turn 3, Dreg Mangler/Geralf's Messenger completely outshine it.
Beyond turn 2 Blood Artist is a much better drop.
Azorius Charm (which is going to see a lot of play) completely destroys troll (especially if you've discarded creatures to it).
And this is a Zombie deck! I want my creatures to die so I can Brimstone or trigger Blood Artist!
I can't say enough about golgari charm either. It rips the heart out of any token deck. And it also is great against white weenie. Also enchantments are becoming the real deal with detention sphere, oblivion ring, aura decks popping up, curses (deathhold mainly), etc. And lastly, regen can save you from verdicts or pillar of flames/burn.
I, like most people here, am not a big fan of tragic slip in the current meta... I might try Ultimate Price/Victim of the Night instead, but slip still has its uses (ramp comes to mind).
TLDR: 12 1cmc drops removes the need for a kick ass 2cmc drop that we desired pre-rotation and Golgari Charm is awesome.
Thanks for the report.
With regards to the troll, I have to disagree, against control anyway. While you are right that charm does set it back a lot, you also have to understand that against UW it's better to not discard anything but gravecrawler to it. By doing so it is still a 2/1 trampler that doesn't die to supreme verdict, and hopefully will force them to detention sphere it.
But I know how you feel, I often am stuck with a choice between a 1 drop + rancor on T2 OR troll. At which point you have to play it by ear based on whether you think they're running any instant removal for your rancor target.
Is Murder really so bad that it doesn't even get mentioned?
Our .dec manages to get the BB ALWAYS. It is an instant unlike Dreadbore. Probably not MD material but should definitely be considered for the SB.
Also are we ruling out Golgari Charm as a form of removal?
Currently I have Main Deck:
2 Brimstone Volley
2 Dreadbore
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Golgari Charm
1 Tragic Slip
I am also considering Bonfire of the Damned. I used to use it in BR Zombies. Have to test it out still with this mana base. When you miracle into it or even hard cast to kill their chump blocking tokens it can really devastate the opponent. It's a mana sink. But more often than not it is always worth it when I played it.
I also forgot flames of the firebrand as Archie mentioned before, not that they're bad card I just forgot them since was in the middle of 3 things as the time I made the list.
As for whether murder is worthwhile as an option is slim, while I love versatile cards, murder simply demands too much. At 3 we already have Messenger, Mangler, and Brimstone, all of which are more important.
Now you could argue that we can play it on T4+, but then the problem becomes that if you draw it in your opening hand, you essentially have a dead card for the first chunk of the game, which to this deck is everything.
As for golgari charm, I myself never had much luck with it, so I opted for putting them in board and going with Rancors for extra reach in the early game. But the way I see it, the fact that it hits your own board can be a significant drawback depending on how many X/1's you have out.
With regards to bonfire, I too am on the fence about the card. I have bonfires, but every time I wanted to put it in I noticed Electrickery, which does the same thing for one less mana, barring miracle-ing it. However I will wait to see how others fair with it in the MD, since I may be underestimating it.
Ok, so upon doing some testing I find that the hardest part of playing the deck is when you get a tough choice on what to play on T2/T3. An example is when you get a hand of 3 1 drops, and a lotleth troll, while I normally would play the 2 one drops 2/2s on T2, I sometimes feel that maybe playing lotleth is the correct choice and using the 1 drops as fodder for the troll to make it a 3/2 or 4/3.
Another tough call is whether to play a troll with regen mana on T3 or a Geralf's messenger. While an argument can be made either way is there one choice that is generally better?
I've also found that pillar has lost some of it's luster, the problem is that all of the removal that we have has something that holds it back.
Pillar of Flame - worthless against X/3's and up + Needs an early red source Abrupt Decay - Too narrow against the lategame threats that can hinder our clock Tragic Slip - Not as useful as it was with fume spitter/mortarpod for on demand activation, usually results in a post combat kill, which can slow your clock. Dreadbore - Sorcery + needs a red source Brimstone Volley - Too expensive + Better when targeting an opponent Victim of Night - Doesn't hit hit particular key targets (Huntmaster/Olivia) + Useless in the mirror Ultimate Price - Doesn't hit hit particular key targets (Huntmaster/Olivia) + Worse against G/W matchup due to Loxodon Smiter/Armada Wurm Cripplling Blight - Doesn't kill any creatures that is medium to large size
At the moment I'm using tragic slip and dreadbore for creature kills, along with crippling blight, and while it has worked reasonably well, I dislike tragic slips inability to kill medium sized blockers before combat.
It's been a while everyone, just checking in now that I've gotten all the RTR, and real life stuff that I had to do out of the way. I've been lurking here and there when I had time, and just put the finishing touches on a Jund Zombie deck for the new standard (Can post the list if anyone is interested).
@ Necro - Nice pulls man, no jace but it looks like your stuff was decent.
Tragic slip is capable of killing a T1 threat/accel dork before it has a chance to do anything. Sometimes all it takes is the loss of their T1-2 critter to mess up their curve out. Also when morbid is active, which is very to do, it is capable of killing any fattie in standard. (Barring a certain 15/15 that probably wont see play.
I myself will be running dreadbore as a SB, the card is good and versatile, but I feel that often times a Tragic Slip can do the same job for less mana and color requirements, unless I'm up against a deck with a walker I can't easily deal with.
I'll be honest, I dont think that predator ooze will see much use in a format where we have both tragic slip, and o-ring available to most decks.
Aside from that, as a general rule of thumb, you want to try to make all your dudes be "good" alone, and "great" when out with other zombies. When you start running things like unbreathing horde which can be a 4 mana 1/1 or 2/2 sometimes it hurts your tempo due to the amount of mana you paid for such a weak body.
My suggestion would be the addition of geralf's messenger, he is probably one of the best zombies in the game now that celestial purge is gone.
EDIT upon reading your reasoning on messenger, I would have to disagree, if your one card is vunerable to only 2 cards, one of which only kills it in it's first form, then it's still worth running them. Also I can't believe I forgot this, but you should look into blood artist, that card is nuts.
Looking at this new set I've taken it upon myslef to pre-order a box. (Not something I usually do), and look at changing my style of standard deck to match some of the golgari goodness in this set.
Mafia is pretty fun, although having to constantly provide explanations behind your statements is a little cumbersome.
Went 3-1 and made top four with my UW delver, won in the semi finals, and drew with the other finalist. My store didn't have the promo for the month, but we did have an overstock of FNM forbidden alchemy which I was happy with.
Also I'm building a 5C planeswalker commander deck, any suggestions or lists that you may have relating to this would be very appreciated.
@Yanni, mono colored Commander decks are hilarious. Is it just me, or are most of the green and x bicolored legenary creatures that are worth a crap are elves?
That or oozes of some kind, it seems to be a lingering trend left over since the simic in RAV.
The only qualm I have about the card is the fact that the blue side has no evasion, I feel that given the power level of cards like thieving magpie an evasion ability like flying might be appropriate.
Went to a draft today, first one since April 1st for the Unhinged draft. I places second, with a Gb deck. I basically got lucky with my draft, I had Elderscale Wurm and Liliana of the Dark Realms. I also had a ton of ramp and tudors for the wurm.
Impressive, that sounds like a pretty sick pool, glad that you did fairly well.
Best pool I've seen in draft so far has been one guy that got 2 sands of delirium and a jace in their pool. (Flattened me like a pancake when I faced him :-/)
Also for those of you who have not yet seen it, SCG has a sale going on to sell some overstock, tbere is some pretty good stuff left so you may wish to check it out.
Not gonna lie, GW is like our nightmare with this deck style.
As you mentioned Thaggie/Healer provide efficient creatures plus life gain, which causes problems for us. For boarding options the two that I've had the most luck with was appetite for brains, and Rakdos, Lord of Riots. The latter is good because the only removal in the average GW deck for it is the charm. Otherwise you just got a 6/6 flier, which makes for a pretty sweet clock.
Another card that is good in this matchup is searing spear, which is good for clearing their X/3s like thaggie and healer, and also for their 2 mana centaur maker. Although dreadbore does the same, it's important to note that the spear can also be used to dome them for the last bit of damage needed.
I think the meta is still a little too fresh to know which zombies build is the best. But with BR you can always play rakdos in the sideboard, since he makes a pretty sweet board in against some decks like GW.
I'd have to say I agree, I love shred-freak against control and frites, since they don't have many x/3s. But against GW midrange, and the mirror, there will be enough blockers for a 2/1 by turn two that I'm hesitant on running them. Highborn, while a bit slower on the control matchups, seems to be the ticket to keeping the clock going.
This is where I would disagree, BSV, while seeming expensive is something our deck needs in order to provide a large amount of it's reach while not being 4+ mana. Five damage is often enough to finish off an opponent after a good curve out, or enough to take care of a Trostani/Rakdos on the block to keep the beats going. With the way this deck plays I always count on morbid happening. I do agree that keeping mana open is counter intuitive for an early game plan, but after you've had the first 3 turns of playing things the extra five damage acts as insurance to help you reach the end you can't get 5 points for 3 mana with any other card.
Just my 2 cents
Thanks for the report.
With regards to the troll, I have to disagree, against control anyway. While you are right that charm does set it back a lot, you also have to understand that against UW it's better to not discard anything but gravecrawler to it. By doing so it is still a 2/1 trampler that doesn't die to supreme verdict, and hopefully will force them to detention sphere it.
But I know how you feel, I often am stuck with a choice between a 1 drop + rancor on T2 OR troll. At which point you have to play it by ear based on whether you think they're running any instant removal for your rancor target.
I also forgot flames of the firebrand as Archie mentioned before, not that they're bad card I just forgot them since was in the middle of 3 things as the time I made the list.
As for whether murder is worthwhile as an option is slim, while I love versatile cards, murder simply demands too much. At 3 we already have Messenger, Mangler, and Brimstone, all of which are more important.
Now you could argue that we can play it on T4+, but then the problem becomes that if you draw it in your opening hand, you essentially have a dead card for the first chunk of the game, which to this deck is everything.
As for golgari charm, I myself never had much luck with it, so I opted for putting them in board and going with Rancors for extra reach in the early game. But the way I see it, the fact that it hits your own board can be a significant drawback depending on how many X/1's you have out.
With regards to bonfire, I too am on the fence about the card. I have bonfires, but every time I wanted to put it in I noticed Electrickery, which does the same thing for one less mana, barring miracle-ing it. However I will wait to see how others fair with it in the MD, since I may be underestimating it.
Another tough call is whether to play a troll with regen mana on T3 or a Geralf's messenger. While an argument can be made either way is there one choice that is generally better?
Pillar of Flame - worthless against X/3's and up + Needs an early red source
Abrupt Decay - Too narrow against the lategame threats that can hinder our clock
Tragic Slip - Not as useful as it was with fume spitter/mortarpod for on demand activation, usually results in a post combat kill, which can slow your clock.
Dreadbore - Sorcery + needs a red source
Brimstone Volley - Too expensive + Better when targeting an opponent
Victim of Night - Doesn't hit hit particular key targets (Huntmaster/Olivia) + Useless in the mirror
Ultimate Price - Doesn't hit hit particular key targets (Huntmaster/Olivia) + Worse against G/W matchup due to Loxodon Smiter/Armada Wurm
Cripplling Blight - Doesn't kill any creatures that is medium to large size
At the moment I'm using tragic slip and dreadbore for creature kills, along with crippling blight, and while it has worked reasonably well, I dislike tragic slips inability to kill medium sized blockers before combat.
@ Necro - Nice pulls man, no jace but it looks like your stuff was decent.
@ Digi - Cool stuff with the sig.
Tragic slip is capable of killing a T1 threat/accel dork before it has a chance to do anything. Sometimes all it takes is the loss of their T1-2 critter to mess up their curve out. Also when morbid is active, which is very to do, it is capable of killing any fattie in standard. (Barring a certain 15/15 that probably wont see play.
I myself will be running dreadbore as a SB, the card is good and versatile, but I feel that often times a Tragic Slip can do the same job for less mana and color requirements, unless I'm up against a deck with a walker I can't easily deal with.
Aside from that, as a general rule of thumb, you want to try to make all your dudes be "good" alone, and "great" when out with other zombies. When you start running things like unbreathing horde which can be a 4 mana 1/1 or 2/2 sometimes it hurts your tempo due to the amount of mana you paid for such a weak body.
My suggestion would be the addition of geralf's messenger, he is probably one of the best zombies in the game now that celestial purge is gone.
EDIT upon reading your reasoning on messenger, I would have to disagree, if your one card is vunerable to only 2 cards, one of which only kills it in it's first form, then it's still worth running them. Also I can't believe I forgot this, but you should look into blood artist, that card is nuts.
Looking at this new set I've taken it upon myslef to pre-order a box. (Not something I usually do), and look at changing my style of standard deck to match some of the golgari goodness in this set.
Went 3-1 and made top four with my UW delver, won in the semi finals, and drew with the other finalist. My store didn't have the promo for the month, but we did have an overstock of FNM forbidden alchemy which I was happy with.
Also I'm building a 5C planeswalker commander deck, any suggestions or lists that you may have relating to this would be very appreciated.
That or oozes of some kind, it seems to be a lingering trend left over since the simic in RAV.
The only qualm I have about the card is the fact that the blue side has no evasion, I feel that given the power level of cards like thieving magpie an evasion ability like flying might be appropriate.
You mean a deck that features transforming creatures, or is this for something else?
Impressive, that sounds like a pretty sick pool, glad that you did fairly well.
Best pool I've seen in draft so far has been one guy that got 2 sands of delirium and a jace in their pool. (Flattened me like a pancake when I faced him :-/)
Also for those of you who have not yet seen it, SCG has a sale going on to sell some overstock, tbere is some pretty good stuff left so you may wish to check it out.