I think that you'll find reveillark is pretty underpowered. In the current metagame its pretty lackluster against most of the top decks, and your particular list doesn't optimize it (lack of Pia and Kiran, more 3 power creatures in Finks, Rallier, Chainwhirler, instead of coursers and orzhov pontiff). I love the card though so if you think it is worth the spot, definitely keep it. Lastly I have found 4 tutors to be slightly clunky, and when on the full 4 chords I usually trim an evolution. Drawing evolution in multiples can be good, but often if your hand is too flush with chord and evolution, you lack the requisite creature board to actually utilize them. In the board I think you may want some number of damping sphere, most likely in place of cards like loaming shaman. I think graveyard hate is important, but shaman is wayyyyyy too slow to play in impact in a matchup like hollow one most games. Lastly, this one is pure preference, but in a world where humans and hollow one are prevalent decks, I much rather see paths in my hand than bolts. As always, this is all my ideas on an archetype that is all about personal preferences and metagame reads so take it with a grain of salt!
I have played both versions and agree that the bant version (which is different than naya splashing blue obviously for anyone confused) has a better tron matchup against tron. Getting access to more instant speed threats is surprisingly powerful against many of their threats, especially karn. Furthermore, it is an age-old myth imo that blood moon is good against blood moon. Mono green tron is very resilient to moon (see emma handy's article on SCG http://www.starcitygames.com/articles/37455_Understanding-Moderns-Top-Tier.html) and I would much rather try to keep them off a few key spells with counterspells while I work towards combo then try to go all in on blood moon then lose to a turn 5 cracked oblivion stone.
Hey all, it's been a while since I posted, I have been at college and am only just undusting my old kiki cards. I been grinding with the bant shell and have been extremely impressed! The mana is much smoother, but I truly think that coiling oracle is a huge gain for this deck. The games where a land is flipped on turn 2 convert to a much higher winrate, especially when off of a bird you can deploy another 2 drop. Sequencing hierarch into oracle and voice is your most powerful setup. I started at 2 jace, moved to 1, and have now completely cut the planeswalker. As powerful as he is, I have found that your ability to stabilize at this point of the game is not improved terribly, while having a ton of 4 drops has continued clunkiness. My current build is here: https://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/bant-kiki-4/?cb=1527564835
I have tried to lower the curve substantially, relying on tireless tracker for midrange value. My list and board are skewed for a burn and storm heavy meta, as well as a decent amount of jund. I have not tested damping sphere yet, but have found the tron and storm matchups to be better with the blue heavy build.
Last FNM report:
Game 1 - BW Tokens - Win
This mathup was pretty trivial. I win game 1 by quickly setting up tracker plus courser, a timely path for gideon and then winning with chord for resto eot chord for kiki in upkeep. Game 2 we are in a boardstall in which I am drawing 3+ cards a turn with tracker, restos and oracles. I grind out a win by ewitting an overgrown tomb to play my pontiff and swing for lethal.
Game 2 - Dredge - Loss
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play. I have hierarch into scooze, he sacks neonite in response, dredges an imp into a thug and imp. I pass in case a conflagrate is dredged, he dredges over 2, I scoop quickly after. Game 2 I mull to 5, keep a solid hand with razorverge, hierarch, island, courser, resto. He has darkblast for the hierarch and I scoop after missing land 3.
Game 3 - Grixis Shadow - Win
Game 1 he only ever finds 1 threat which I am able to path. We trade 1 for 1 until he dies to resto beats. Game 2 an eot chord draws his stub and I untap and play out EE to kill 3 DS.
Game 4 - Storm - Win
Game 1 I lose t4. Had a very kiki chord hand, not much to say. Game 2 he keeps a hand that is very all in on blood moon, I have basic plains in my opener. Am able to steal the game of the back of multiple restos as he struggles to shape his hand. Game 3 I have evo for eidolon on 3, he has the blood moon again, yet once again I have basic plains and am able to kill him with Restos.
Overall was pretty happy to be chording again. I want to try out mystic snake, and possibly try to squeeze in a shalai somewhere. Would love to hear yall's thoughts on the list!
Professional players are playing peek right now because 1 mana cantrips are so good, and this is 100 times better than that. I finished round one of play testing with opt and the consistency boost was notable. I am with out a doubt going to be playing a list with 12 one mana cantrips once this card is legal! I think others will find the same results when they try this. I will be developing my list with it this weekend.
I just laugh when people say Kiki Chord is poorly positioned. The top decks include grixis DS, Affinity, Burn Etron and Valakut. Grixis, Burn and Affinity are both favorable matchups. Etron is way closer than any version of OG Tron. Sure, Valakut is pretty much unwinnable, but thats true for ETron too. I dont play kiki chord because I think its a well positioned deck, but the meta seems great to me.
I ended up on a split of evo and chord. I went 3-2-1 at the PPTQ. It was sort of a lesson in the problems of playing a tweakable toolbox deck in Modern - I prepped anticipating facing a bunch of aggro and midrange creature strategies, and then played 4 blue-based control decks in the first 4 rounds. Awkward. R1 drew UWR, R2 beat Grixis control (not DS), R3 lost to RUG Scapeshift, R4 beat Esper control, R5 lost to Counters Company, R6 beat Storm. I suppose I'll probably be moving some sort of control hate from the side to the main, maybe Glen Elendra.
Wondering how you guys feel about our removal suite at the moment. 4 Paths sometimes doesn't feel like enough against the bigger creatures that GDS and Eldrazi Tron are packing. At the PPTQ I moved 1 EE from the side to the main but never drew it, and also it doesn't hit the big creatures anyway. I'm wondering if anybody has tried any copies of Detention Sphere in the blue lists? Enchantment destruction and Abrupt Decay seem to be on downswings at the moment, it isn't necessarily dead against creature-light decks as it can hit wincons (walkers), enchantments, Ensnaring Bridge, etc., also randomly hits stuff like Cranial Plating or Bogles enchantments, cleans up Lingering Souls. I plan on testing 1 or 2 copies, but if anybody has any experience with the card I'm interested to hear about it.
I find that Fiery Justice is the extra removal needed. It is on color, and my new lists fit straight naya builds (splash was usually for x/1 cleanup in the form of staticaster/pontiff), which is unnecessary when you have a removal spell which nerfs a board of x/1s.
Hey, Id like to know if Spike Feeder + Archangel of thune is really needed, would it not be better to simply run 1 more Restauration angel and an other bullet?
Most lists do not play this combo, although I believe the wall guy likes this addition. I personally dont like the combo, as neither piece is particularly good on its own, and I think that the second 5-drop needs to be game changing (IE thragdaddy, lark, or angel of sanctions which I am currently running).
I strongly believe that fiery justice is where this deck wants to be right now. It makes the affinity and small creature matchups great, and in combination with groves allows us to deal with all of the death shadow threats consistently. My current list is here http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/fiery-kiki-chord/
So I've been on the somewhat standard 1 negate, 2 unified will for a while now. Today someone suggested Disdainful Stroke over unified will.
Main differences I can see are DS is better vs Eldrazi Tron, UW better vs Living End. Against UWx control I'm not sure.
Any opinions?
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Are you bringing eidolon in vs grixis (delver/shadow/control)?
Eidolon comes in against grixis control, where the body is a relevant, unboltable creature, and demands a terminate to unlock snapcaster. Against grixis death shadow and delver i often dont bring it in, as the four RIP are already shutting down gy against DS. I also do not like countermagic. This is a tappout creature deck that needs to develop in the first few turns, so holding up a two mana counterspell every turn can be more detrimental than helpful at times. I absolutely feel that 4 VOR is essential to this deck, but the 3 drop creature spot is the last piece the deck needs to solidify. Right now I play a singleton courser/witness/rallier, with a pair of reflector mages. Kitchen finks is a very powerful spell, but I prefer courser as a pure power card, especialy when paired with saheeli. The ewit is just a good card to have, and is needed to rebuy a path in a pinch. Renegade rallier is mostly there to rebuy GQ in big mana matchups, but the best card in my testing is the reflector mage. This is great against delve threats, and excels in every creature matchup, i wouldnt leave howme without a few in your 75.
One of hate creatures are at a premium with an evolution deck.
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Linvala is very good versus abzan company, but it also great against: eldrazi decks (displacer/ drowner in bant, walking ballista in eldratron), elves, affinity, knightfall and a bunch of other matchups.
I currently am playing manglehorn side over rec sage as it is better against ad nauseum, KCI, lantern and affinity. I am not a fan of gust, and prefer 2 slots for stony silence before I play my first kataki.
Yeah you would but the 1/3 body is not going to get much done by itself anyway and you'd still get to Anticipate
Wall of omens seems better. It costs less mana, helps us avoid fetching blue when an oath is down, and is better at blocking nacatls. Also doesn't just die when linked with felidar guardian...
Congrats Luda, that is super impressive. I am curious about how you navigate the grixis matchups and other cryptic mana leak decks. Those have always been very difficult for me and I often just get locked out by a string of cryptics...
On another note I have been tuning an evolution build, going off the series ari lax did and applying his suggestions, seems pretty good but still gets wrecked by counter magic. List is here http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-04-17-kiki-evolution/
Couple notes, I have always played with reveillark, and the card is bonkers in Kiki, and generates more value with cards like pia, but perhaps rebuying shaheeli is just too good?
A couple cards I brought over are staticaster and glen. I go a little deeper on the 4c mana base, and glen is just a house against spellbased combo which lists like these normally struggle against. My list omits path, and is built more like a traditional Kiki pod deck where if you are facing down a steel overseer or eldrazi displacer you try to tutor up a staticaster or Linvala if not just racing to a combo finish. Sideboard is a little rough but cards like keranos singlehandedly win matchups and ruric thar is a beast. Also, no engineered explosives anyone? That card is sooooo good!
Leaving Tron behind... why would I ever cut bird? Bird leads to my most powerful and explosive draws with good mana. Having access to less than 4 reduces consistency, not a great idea for this deck. The deck has always been mana hungry, especially the old pod lists, but it has never been a ramp deck. My lists aim to curve out from bird, value card, hate card then start trying to close the door. However, when any part of the chain gets disrupted, Kiki chord is very good at recovering, especially against midrange variants.
Voice of resurgence is Extremely powerful and is good in pretty much every matchup. Aggrosdemise you described your meta as having uw control, and while that matchup is hard, that is the only deck that plays maindeck sweepers I can think of. Voice does a lot of things in the deck, namely allowing us to resolve key spells, size up to eldrazi and clock. I have played 4 ever since drazi winter and never regretted it.
Pia... you know other decks like tappout grixis and skred play this card because it has value written all over it. Against affinity I can land a turn 3 pia far more consistently than you can land a turn 3 elesh born, and pia is often all the time I need to close the game out. Additionally, pia and other cards in lists may seem small bodied, there's a synergy with my good friend reveillark there, it's pretty cool.
Standard Kiki Chord.
As the aggro version, that's meant to get in fast.
Good vs midrange/aggro
Kiki evolution
Is better when you are playing tons of silver bullets.
Good vs combo/aggro
Kiki company.
When you want to flood the board for fast recovery/combo potentional
Good vs aggro, big mana, combo, has some trouble with control/discard.
All 3 versions have a good MU vs GX tron, but struggle with Eldrazi Tron.
Personally See 8 rack as the top worst MU for all 3 versions. All 3 are great, it's personal choice/playstyle for what is best for yoy
Traditional Kiki Chord is anything but an aggro deck.
Evolution is about access to bullets on earlier turns, not the number of bullets you're looking to play.
None of the versions have a positive record vs. G/x Tron Varaints.
8-rack is a test of resource management, but the deck is terrible against 2-for-1 bodies. Nor has it actually been relevant in Modern for some time.
I agree with all of what Luda said. The nature of the evolution builds lends itself to higher cmc hate cards like linvala, but I think the density is the same because you are forced to play more value creatures for sacrificing like wall of omens.
I personally have always had trouble with Tron. O-stone is a beating, and at best takes a chord if you have access to a selfless spirit. As the game progresses it becomes more and more difficult to combo as the new Tron decks have a side plan of shredding your land base with ulamog, world breaker and karn.
8 rack can lock out games, but the deck top decks great, and any game I can get to four lands I feel confident. Btw I have maindecked a baloth for a while and that card is great in the matchup.
The eldrazi Tron deck plays one main deck all is dust, and I honestly only see that deck assemble Tron 1/4 games, but maybe that's just variance?
I have tried to lower the curve substantially, relying on tireless tracker for midrange value. My list and board are skewed for a burn and storm heavy meta, as well as a decent amount of jund. I have not tested damping sphere yet, but have found the tron and storm matchups to be better with the blue heavy build.
Last FNM report:
Game 1 - BW Tokens - Win
This mathup was pretty trivial. I win game 1 by quickly setting up tracker plus courser, a timely path for gideon and then winning with chord for resto eot chord for kiki in upkeep. Game 2 we are in a boardstall in which I am drawing 3+ cards a turn with tracker, restos and oracles. I grind out a win by ewitting an overgrown tomb to play my pontiff and swing for lethal.
Game 2 - Dredge - Loss
Game 1 I mull to 6 on the play. I have hierarch into scooze, he sacks neonite in response, dredges an imp into a thug and imp. I pass in case a conflagrate is dredged, he dredges over 2, I scoop quickly after. Game 2 I mull to 5, keep a solid hand with razorverge, hierarch, island, courser, resto. He has darkblast for the hierarch and I scoop after missing land 3.
Game 3 - Grixis Shadow - Win
Game 1 he only ever finds 1 threat which I am able to path. We trade 1 for 1 until he dies to resto beats. Game 2 an eot chord draws his stub and I untap and play out EE to kill 3 DS.
Game 4 - Storm - Win
Game 1 I lose t4. Had a very kiki chord hand, not much to say. Game 2 he keeps a hand that is very all in on blood moon, I have basic plains in my opener. Am able to steal the game of the back of multiple restos as he struggles to shape his hand. Game 3 I have evo for eidolon on 3, he has the blood moon again, yet once again I have basic plains and am able to kill him with Restos.
Overall was pretty happy to be chording again. I want to try out mystic snake, and possibly try to squeeze in a shalai somewhere. Would love to hear yall's thoughts on the list!
I find that Fiery Justice is the extra removal needed. It is on color, and my new lists fit straight naya builds (splash was usually for x/1 cleanup in the form of staticaster/pontiff), which is unnecessary when you have a removal spell which nerfs a board of x/1s.
Most lists do not play this combo, although I believe the wall guy likes this addition. I personally dont like the combo, as neither piece is particularly good on its own, and I think that the second 5-drop needs to be game changing (IE thragdaddy, lark, or angel of sanctions which I am currently running).
Eidolon comes in against grixis control, where the body is a relevant, unboltable creature, and demands a terminate to unlock snapcaster. Against grixis death shadow and delver i often dont bring it in, as the four RIP are already shutting down gy against DS. I also do not like countermagic. This is a tappout creature deck that needs to develop in the first few turns, so holding up a two mana counterspell every turn can be more detrimental than helpful at times. I absolutely feel that 4 VOR is essential to this deck, but the 3 drop creature spot is the last piece the deck needs to solidify. Right now I play a singleton courser/witness/rallier, with a pair of reflector mages. Kitchen finks is a very powerful spell, but I prefer courser as a pure power card, especialy when paired with saheeli. The ewit is just a good card to have, and is needed to rebuy a path in a pinch. Renegade rallier is mostly there to rebuy GQ in big mana matchups, but the best card in my testing is the reflector mage. This is great against delve threats, and excels in every creature matchup, i wouldnt leave howme without a few in your 75.
Eidolon is most relevant against storm, but also comes in against: snapcaster decks, cascade decks (living end, restore balance), ad nauseum and elves if on the play.
Linvala is very good versus abzan company, but it also great against: eldrazi decks (displacer/ drowner in bant, walking ballista in eldratron), elves, affinity, knightfall and a bunch of other matchups.
I currently am playing manglehorn side over rec sage as it is better against ad nauseum, KCI, lantern and affinity. I am not a fan of gust, and prefer 2 slots for stony silence before I play my first kataki.
My list is here: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/29-05-17-4c-saheeli/
Wall of omens seems better. It costs less mana, helps us avoid fetching blue when an oath is down, and is better at blocking nacatls. Also doesn't just die when linked with felidar guardian...
On another note I have been tuning an evolution build, going off the series ari lax did and applying his suggestions, seems pretty good but still gets wrecked by counter magic. List is here http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/25-04-17-kiki-evolution/
Couple notes, I have always played with reveillark, and the card is bonkers in Kiki, and generates more value with cards like pia, but perhaps rebuying shaheeli is just too good?
A couple cards I brought over are staticaster and glen. I go a little deeper on the 4c mana base, and glen is just a house against spellbased combo which lists like these normally struggle against. My list omits path, and is built more like a traditional Kiki pod deck where if you are facing down a steel overseer or eldrazi displacer you try to tutor up a staticaster or Linvala if not just racing to a combo finish. Sideboard is a little rough but cards like keranos singlehandedly win matchups and ruric thar is a beast. Also, no engineered explosives anyone? That card is sooooo good!
Voice of resurgence is Extremely powerful and is good in pretty much every matchup. Aggrosdemise you described your meta as having uw control, and while that matchup is hard, that is the only deck that plays maindeck sweepers I can think of. Voice does a lot of things in the deck, namely allowing us to resolve key spells, size up to eldrazi and clock. I have played 4 ever since drazi winter and never regretted it.
Pia... you know other decks like tappout grixis and skred play this card because it has value written all over it. Against affinity I can land a turn 3 pia far more consistently than you can land a turn 3 elesh born, and pia is often all the time I need to close the game out. Additionally, pia and other cards in lists may seem small bodied, there's a synergy with my good friend reveillark there, it's pretty cool.
I agree with all of what Luda said. The nature of the evolution builds lends itself to higher cmc hate cards like linvala, but I think the density is the same because you are forced to play more value creatures for sacrificing like wall of omens.
I personally have always had trouble with Tron. O-stone is a beating, and at best takes a chord if you have access to a selfless spirit. As the game progresses it becomes more and more difficult to combo as the new Tron decks have a side plan of shredding your land base with ulamog, world breaker and karn.
8 rack can lock out games, but the deck top decks great, and any game I can get to four lands I feel confident. Btw I have maindecked a baloth for a while and that card is great in the matchup.
The eldrazi Tron deck plays one main deck all is dust, and I honestly only see that deck assemble Tron 1/4 games, but maybe that's just variance?