I've been tuning this for a while now and been pretty pleased with the results. Flex slot has rending volley, but later i'll probably change things to include collector ouphe, or hate against whatever turns up top after modern horizons hits the floors. This seems to have game against everything, hardest are the value-decks that i'll try to straight up race.
Biggest problem is consistency, or how to achieve that with little life loss..
Hi all!
I posted this list in stompy thread, but maybe it's better suited here. My main deck rUG evole is not doing great in this meta, so i'm trying more aggressive gruul-style of stompy now. Any comments w'd be welcome!
The idea is to get some creatures in the field, hold up interaction, and stretch to midrangey play if needed after sideboarding. The mainboard cindervines chance places with blossoming defense quite often, as i'm not a fan of the latter here. Some removal might be better.
I've also considered adding splash of white, for obvious paths etc. and especially as i'd like to try proclamation of rebirth in sideboard. Then again, not sure if splash is needed, as it is i like my chances against burn and moons are nice too. Any suggestions for red removal?
I really enjoy this build. Have you tried jamming in a few copies of Harden Scales?
Nope, actually since i made the changes to include 2x goblin cratermaker and 2x magus of the moon i've often found that my creatures don't have enough counters to make avatar a good card.
Instead i've been pondering how to make room for some smuggler's copters.
I reallyreallyreally enjoy playing the deck, and magus is such a fun card game one, as people dont seem to expect it.
If all goes well it c'd often make turn 4 win, but many times i play a bit cautiously for various reasons. The problem is to run out of steam if the game goes longer, and copters could help that i think.
What i've learnt from testing is i mostly need 2 lands in opener, E1 gets played before pelt collector, and cindervines are very good against any sort of longer game control deck. This build is not quite fast enough to play eidolon of the great revel, but cindervines serves slightly the same purpose.
Shadow, infect, control, tron and even burn are winnable mu's, eldrazi tron, humans, and other big creature-decks are harder.
What do u think? How do u play against those bad mu's?
I already saw your post in the Stompy thread, since I am a Long year Stompy Player, but I guess that one really fits better in here.
To your deck: I guess you're mixing two archetypes here, while simultaneously leaving out the key components of each one. So, for the Stompy part you are missing the Power boost of Steel Leaf Champion and Aspect of Hydra, while for the Zoo part the deck is missing the explosiveness of Wild Nacatl and the BTE/Bushwhacker Combo.
The 8 evolvers + Renegade and Vexing Devil is a nice start, also including 4 Dryad is really good in the current meta. But in my eyes you are lacking a consistent plan after that - you either want to smash the Opponent with raw power (Stompy), go wide and fast (Zoo) or bring the last Damage through (Burn). But I guess Scooze and Spellbreaker dilute your deck into something midrang-esk, which it cannot support.
Also, Relic and Cindervines do not seem maindeck-worthy in your strategy. You have exactly one plan in this archetypes, which is killing the Opponent. The disruption belongs to the Sideboard.
Really looking forward to some testing results, because maybe I am wrong with my assessment. But just from seeing the list, that would be my conclusion.
Thank you! I think ur right about those cards, tho i'm probably trying to go a bit different direction. Took out the ones u suggested and this is what im trying now:
Hi all!
I posted this list in stompy thread, but maybe it's better suited here. My main deck rUG evole is not doing great in this meta, so i'm trying more aggressive gruul-style of stompy now. Any comments w'd be welcome!
The idea is to get some creatures in the field, hold up interaction, and stretch to midrangey play if needed after sideboarding. The mainboard cindervines chance places with blossoming defense quite often, as i'm not a fan of the latter here. Some removal might be better.
I've also considered adding splash of white, for obvious paths etc. and especially as i'd like to try proclamation of rebirth in sideboard. Then again, not sure if splash is needed, as it is i like my chances against burn and moons are nice too. Any suggestions for red removal?
Hi!
I've been lurking here for quite some time. My main deck is rUG evolve, but as it has had some rough times lately i've decided to try something different. This is sort of Gruul stompy, where i use atarka's command as pump spell instead of devotion. Maindeck relics and vines are there to hate the topdecks.
It's very much work in progress still, but any comments w'd be appreciated.
so, u asked for suggestions
IF ur using the red splash with 8 red cards in mainboard i w'd definitely recommend using 1 more stomping ground. Also, ancient grudge is in my experience so much better than reclamation sage: With the same amount of mana u get rid of two artifacts, and the instant speed is nothing to sniff at. Sage has a weak body as well, so the upside is really small.
the second list is slower but much more consistent and in my testing it felt better at grinding games, despite not having the explosiveness of the temur version.
The thing i didn't test was surgical extraction, but i guess it's better, in the current meta, than my 4x relic of progenitus.
Feel free to drop by any suggestion!
Not much to add here as i haven't played with simic version, but the reclamation sage does look weak here too. Also, this list doesn't have any ways to get rid of big and annoying blockers, only make them 3/3's instead. I get that the idea is to trample over them, just not sure how fast it will be if ur using ur creatures to smash against TKSs and alike.
Surgicals on the other hand haven't been too good, so ur relics are a lot better. Problem with Phoenix decks for example hasn't been so much how to remove birds than how to get rid of every thing in the ice before they flip..
At this moment my sb is a compromise that i'm not happy with:
damping spheres are semi okay, but i'd definitely feel i'd need one more relic. spellbreakers i'm testing against control-mu's, since they tend to go longer and i have time to get enough mana. Relics are good against most midrange-decks and as cantrips they rarely wreck the whole game. What do u think?
Are Pongify and Rapid Hybridization still worthwhile in this deck? The enforce restrictive deckbuilding and provide minimal advantage (E1, Young Wolf in play, Pongify the Wolf, end up with a 2/2 E1, 2/2 Wolf and a 3/3 Token none of which are particularly impressive).
To me, 7-8x pongify IS the point of the deck and the reason to play blue here. Sure, in modern T2 with 8 power on the board is not that impressive and zoo decks can do better. What the pongifyes exel is interaction. Just last game i kept regenerating and pumping E1 midcombat. To keep this going, u need almost the full two sets of pongifyes, otherwise u can't count on getting more copies as the the game progresses.
This deck is not even close to top tiers, and to succeed u have to be fully consentrating and think about interactions a lot..and even then some of the top decks will just wipe the floor with u. Then again, any mid-level deck or opponent that doesn't know what to do (and maybe boards rest in peace against us) and this deck will suddenly do exactly what is was supposed to.
Nice going! What do u think about the mu's for ur deck?
I haven't been able to settle. Went to fnm last week with very poor results(2-2), but i think it was mostly due to making wrong moves, like boarding snags out against U-tron that only had wurmcoils as threats. I completetly agree with ur sb with 4x relics and some spheres.
Recently i got inspired by the rg-hatebears list that's floating around, and made attempt to that direction a la stompy. The list has very little in common with what were're trying to do with blue, but i thought it interesting experiment: It has different weak spots than our list, so now im trying to mix them card by card. For instance, dryad militant is really not that good for us, but perhaps izzet phoenix makes it okay at the moment.
i'm going back and forth with small changes, surgicals came back to the side for izzet phoenix and dredge (mainly prized amalgam and phoenix, but i do now that another echoing truth w'd get the job done as well).
What i like about the current list is moderate burn from lands, E1 evolves from narnam renegade, and pongifying a blocker in front of avatar has won me some games. Mostly if opp has BGx or eldrazi tron etc. i grab unified wills and nissas from the side, and if against something quick the copters will go. Sure, some games go horribly wrong with mulling to 5 etc. but this has been best for me at least. Admittedly my bad plays may play a huge role in this: with familiar build i make less of them.
@capt.nick: thanks for ur suggestions but seems i personally am not good at playing the more red version, and bigger creatures aren't as good as nissa in my build, so i'm being conservative here.
After trying different combinations of creatures i've returned to original list with two smuggles copters. Seems my results are more constant that way, and maybe creatures are actually fine.. So, now i'm trying to up the spells, and specifically the SB-options. I dropped surgicals for two heroic intervention to survive annoying boardwipes, and swapped 3xceremonious rejection to 2xunified will and an extra spell pierce. Nissa is still powerhouse for any game that goes longer, and ancient grudges and life goes on will stay too, but otherwise i'm still mulling it over.
Any lists on how u guys side for specific MU's w'd be appreciated...
For reference: in my games the absolute best start is
T1: breeding pool/botanical sanctum and raptor/E1
T2: any land+wolf+pongify
T3+ trying to hold interaction up while adding creatures one by one..
Problem has been the lack of powerful interaction: spell pierce and bolt do nothing to goyfs and such, and lose value quickly
@capt.nick
btw, have u tried pelt collector instead of E1? i'm thinking that pelt's ability to register dying creatures w'd add up nicely with rancored hellsparks etc. or is that not something that occurs often enoug to compensate the loss of regeneration? (i'm considering losing the devils and trying rancors insted..and wandering if u have experience in this)
If you're really worried about Blood Moon, I would like to point out that running more red cards allows you to have more relevant cards after it hits play. Also, sitting on an unusedfetch to grab a singleton Forest in response to a Moon is generally going to be good enough to let you keep playing through it. Either that or floating Blue mana in response so you can Repeal it. Though, Unsubstantiate or Echoing Truth seem like better options if you are looking to bounce things bigger than 2cmc. If you assume Moon is coming in, boarding in Natural State, Destructive Revelry, or some other Naturalize effect gives you more reactive outs to it. You just need to try to read the opponent's potential plays to try and foresee it coming down. When they hit 3 mana you need to ask yourself if it is more likely for them to try to add more to the board, sit back on removal or try to disrupt you out of the game with Moon. Then play according to that hunch. Prioritizing getting 2 Forests into play before a Moon hits is going to severely limit the plays you can make in the early stages of the game, which are the most important turns for the deck. Which, to me, doesn't sound like the best way to win a game.
...
How has Smuggler's Copter been working for you? It doesn't trigger Evolve but the evasion and looting seem decent. It also gives some legs to your late game 1/1s. I may need to try it out over Kari Zev. She's solid but definitely is a flex spot in my list.
u misunderstand me, i don't sit on unused fetches, lol, i use them. But with only set of bolts in MB i was fine by having one botanical/breeding pool, and fetching a forest after that, and sometimes for the third land as well. After adding the vexing devils i haven't been able to do this, as sitting with bolt is not as detrimental as sitting with a threat in hand. This has led to more losses and i'm thinking of going back to no devils and consequently E1, not pelt collector.
Usually the matches i go red with ancient grudges from the side are ones that will be lost over controlling the board. So shocking myself to destroy expedition map or ensnaring bridge doesn't matter.
Tron is a known matchup for the deck, probably more so than Phoenix. I just boarded in stubborn denials to spike karn and ugin. UR Phoenix is something else, though. Doesn't seem that bad, all we seem to care about is Thing In the Ice, as long as it doesn't flip, we can usually find a way to win. Makes the 3rd time I've missed taking the match against the deck.
For me, ancient grudges and ceremonious rejections have been enough of a commitment. Some we lose, tron IS a nastty MU, but i wouldn't take it too seriously, no amount of SB slots is gonna win u the game if u don't happen to draw them. So tough luck but don't fret. Against phoenix i like to add the surgicals from side. Maybe i'll consider using them to thing too, not just the birds...
UR Phoenix 1-2: I swiftly took game one, he settled on a thing in the ice and I killed it with pongify and took over the game. Game two, i brought him to 3 life and he was able to flip Thing In the Ice for game. Game 3, I also applied a ton of pressure, went for the kill with atarka's command and he had a dispel. Left him at 1. He couldn't flip a thing in the ice and I couldn't evolve cloudfin raptor for 1 point of damage to close out the game, until he finally flipped it. Really unfortunate loss.
I had similar experience in my fnm, and after i recently lost a perfectly winnable game with useless repeal in hand, unable to move opp's sun titan, i have moved back to vapor snags. (Time did tell, and rather quickly in this case.. )
Biggest problem is consistency, or how to achieve that with little life loss..
Any thoughts or suggestions?
4x experiment one
4x dryad militant
3x narnam renegade
4x vexing devil
4x strangleroot geist
2x scavenging ooze
2x avatar of the resolute
2x gruul spellbreaker
2x magus of the moon
4x atarka's command
2x smuggler's copter
20 lands:
8x green fetch
2x stomping ground
2x horizon canopy
4x forest
4x rootbound crag
2x goblin cratermaker
2x cindervines
2x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x relic of progenitus
1x pyroclasm
1x firespout
2x flex slot
edit: some mistakes in the deck due to copypaste from old post
Nope, actually since i made the changes to include 2x goblin cratermaker and 2x magus of the moon i've often found that my creatures don't have enough counters to make avatar a good card.
Instead i've been pondering how to make room for some smuggler's copters.
I reallyreallyreally enjoy playing the deck, and magus is such a fun card game one, as people dont seem to expect it.
If all goes well it c'd often make turn 4 win, but many times i play a bit cautiously for various reasons. The problem is to run out of steam if the game goes longer, and copters could help that i think.
What i've learnt from testing is i mostly need 2 lands in opener, E1 gets played before pelt collector, and cindervines are very good against any sort of longer game control deck. This build is not quite fast enough to play eidolon of the great revel, but cindervines serves slightly the same purpose.
Shadow, infect, control, tron and even burn are winnable mu's, eldrazi tron, humans, and other big creature-decks are harder.
What do u think? How do u play against those bad mu's?
Thank you! I think ur right about those cards, tho i'm probably trying to go a bit different direction. Took out the ones u suggested and this is what im trying now:
4x experiment one
4x dryad militant
2x narnam renegade
4x vexing devil
4x strangleroot geist
2x scavenging ooze
2x goblin cratermaker
2x avatar of the resolute
2x gruul spellbreaker
2x magus of the moon
4x atarka's command
20 lands:
8x green fetch
3x stomping ground
5x forest
4x other
2x rending volley
2x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x relic of progenitus
1x pyroclasm
I'll let u know how the testing goes..
I posted this list in stompy thread, but maybe it's better suited here. My main deck rUG evole is not doing great in this meta, so i'm trying more aggressive gruul-style of stompy now. Any comments w'd be welcome!
The idea is to get some creatures in the field, hold up interaction, and stretch to midrangey play if needed after sideboarding. The mainboard cindervines chance places with blossoming defense quite often, as i'm not a fan of the latter here. Some removal might be better.
I've also considered adding splash of white, for obvious paths etc. and especially as i'd like to try proclamation of rebirth in sideboard. Then again, not sure if splash is needed, as it is i like my chances against burn and moons are nice too. Any suggestions for red removal?
4x experiment one
4x dryad militant
2x narnam renegade
4x vexing devil
4x strangleroot geist
2x scavenging ooze
1x avatar of the resolute
3x gruul spellbreaker
4x lightning bolt
2x relic of progenitus
4x atarka's command
20 lands:
10x green fetch
3x stomping ground
3x forest
4x copperline gorge
1x goblin cratermaker (flex)
2x blood moon
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x heroic intervention
2x blossoming defense
1x pyroclasm
1x firespout
I've been lurking here for quite some time. My main deck is rUG evolve, but as it has had some rough times lately i've decided to try something different. This is sort of Gruul stompy, where i use atarka's command as pump spell instead of devotion. Maindeck relics and vines are there to hate the topdecks.
It's very much work in progress still, but any comments w'd be appreciated.
4x experiment one
4x dryad militant
2x narnam renegade
4x vexing devil
4x strangleroot geist
2x scavenging ooze
1x avatar of the resolute
3x gruul spellbreaker
4x lightning bolt
2x relic of progenitus
4x atarka's command
20 lands:
10x green fetch
3x stomping ground
3x forest
4x copperline gorge
2x damping sphere
1x blood moon
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x heroic intervention
2x blossoming defense
1x pyroclasm
1x firespout
True. But because of the wording it w'd only work nicely with wolf and avatar, making it quite narrow.
so, u asked for suggestions
IF ur using the red splash with 8 red cards in mainboard i w'd definitely recommend using 1 more stomping ground. Also, ancient grudge is in my experience so much better than reclamation sage: With the same amount of mana u get rid of two artifacts, and the instant speed is nothing to sniff at. Sage has a weak body as well, so the upside is really small.
Not much to add here as i haven't played with simic version, but the reclamation sage does look weak here too. Also, this list doesn't have any ways to get rid of big and annoying blockers, only make them 3/3's instead. I get that the idea is to trample over them, just not sure how fast it will be if ur using ur creatures to smash against TKSs and alike.
Surgicals on the other hand haven't been too good, so ur relics are a lot better. Problem with Phoenix decks for example hasn't been so much how to remove birds than how to get rid of every thing in the ice before they flip..
At this moment my sb is a compromise that i'm not happy with:
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x unified will
1x pyroclasm
2x damping sphere
2x relic of progenitus
2x gruul spellbreaker
damping spheres are semi okay, but i'd definitely feel i'd need one more relic. spellbreakers i'm testing against control-mu's, since they tend to go longer and i have time to get enough mana. Relics are good against most midrange-decks and as cantrips they rarely wreck the whole game. What do u think?
To me, 7-8x pongify IS the point of the deck and the reason to play blue here. Sure, in modern T2 with 8 power on the board is not that impressive and zoo decks can do better. What the pongifyes exel is interaction. Just last game i kept regenerating and pumping E1 midcombat. To keep this going, u need almost the full two sets of pongifyes, otherwise u can't count on getting more copies as the the game progresses.
This deck is not even close to top tiers, and to succeed u have to be fully consentrating and think about interactions a lot..and even then some of the top decks will just wipe the floor with u. Then again, any mid-level deck or opponent that doesn't know what to do (and maybe boards rest in peace against us) and this deck will suddenly do exactly what is was supposed to.
Lately i've been getting annoyed by tron and phoenix, so my sb looks like this: (suddenly no one seems to be playing midrange..)
2x unified will
2x damping sphere
2x relic of progenitus
1x surgical extraction
1x pyroclasm
1x echoing truth
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
I haven't been able to settle. Went to fnm last week with very poor results(2-2), but i think it was mostly due to making wrong moves, like boarding snags out against U-tron that only had wurmcoils as threats. I completetly agree with ur sb with 4x relics and some spheres.
Recently i got inspired by the rg-hatebears list that's floating around, and made attempt to that direction a la stompy. The list has very little in common with what were're trying to do with blue, but i thought it interesting experiment: It has different weak spots than our list, so now im trying to mix them card by card. For instance, dryad militant is really not that good for us, but perhaps izzet phoenix makes it okay at the moment.
4x experiment one
4x dryad militant
2x narnam renegade
4x vexing devil
4x strangleroot geist
2x scavenging ooze
3x gruul spellbreaker
2x blossoming defence
2x rancor
4x lightning bolt
2x relic of progenitus
3x atarka's command
1x dryad arbor
9x fetch
3x stomping ground
3x forest
4x copperline gorge
3x damping sphere
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
2x heroic intervention
2x goblin cratermaker
2x surgical extraction
So, i dont have any results but thought to say that im still trying..
4x experiment one
4x narnam renegade
4x young wolf
4x strangleroot geist
3x avatar of the resolute
4x rapid hybridization
3x pongify
4x lightning bolt
2x spell pierce
3x vapor snag
2x smuggler's copter
1x dryad arbor
4x windswept heath
4x wooded foothills
1x flooded strand
2x breeding pool
2x stomping ground
3x botanical sanctum
2x forest
2x unified will
1x heroic intervention
3x ancient grudge
3x life goes on
1x pyroclasm
1x echoing truth
2x surgical extraction
2x nissa, steward of elements
i'm going back and forth with small changes, surgicals came back to the side for izzet phoenix and dredge (mainly prized amalgam and phoenix, but i do now that another echoing truth w'd get the job done as well).
What i like about the current list is moderate burn from lands, E1 evolves from narnam renegade, and pongifying a blocker in front of avatar has won me some games. Mostly if opp has BGx or eldrazi tron etc. i grab unified wills and nissas from the side, and if against something quick the copters will go. Sure, some games go horribly wrong with mulling to 5 etc. but this has been best for me at least. Admittedly my bad plays may play a huge role in this: with familiar build i make less of them.
@capt.nick: thanks for ur suggestions but seems i personally am not good at playing the more red version, and bigger creatures aren't as good as nissa in my build, so i'm being conservative here.
Any lists on how u guys side for specific MU's w'd be appreciated...
For reference: in my games the absolute best start is
T1: breeding pool/botanical sanctum and raptor/E1
T2: any land+wolf+pongify
T3+ trying to hold interaction up while adding creatures one by one..
Problem has been the lack of powerful interaction: spell pierce and bolt do nothing to goyfs and such, and lose value quickly
btw, have u tried pelt collector instead of E1? i'm thinking that pelt's ability to register dying creatures w'd add up nicely with rancored hellsparks etc. or is that not something that occurs often enoug to compensate the loss of regeneration? (i'm considering losing the devils and trying rancors insted..and wandering if u have experience in this)
Nope. Devil is gone at the same time opp pays life. of ouse, if they don't pay, u can target again.
u misunderstand me, i don't sit on unused fetches, lol, i use them. But with only set of bolts in MB i was fine by having one botanical/breeding pool, and fetching a forest after that, and sometimes for the third land as well. After adding the vexing devils i haven't been able to do this, as sitting with bolt is not as detrimental as sitting with a threat in hand. This has led to more losses and i'm thinking of going back to no devils and consequently E1, not pelt collector.
Usually the matches i go red with ancient grudges from the side are ones that will be lost over controlling the board. So shocking myself to destroy expedition map or ensnaring bridge doesn't matter.
Copter has been good, and when it's not, like against any deck with kolaghan's command (that is almost unwinnable tempo loss) i swap it with nissa, steward of elements.
For me, ancient grudges and ceremonious rejections have been enough of a commitment. Some we lose, tron IS a nastty MU, but i wouldn't take it too seriously, no amount of SB slots is gonna win u the game if u don't happen to draw them. So tough luck but don't fret. Against phoenix i like to add the surgicals from side. Maybe i'll consider using them to thing too, not just the birds...
I had similar experience in my fnm, and after i recently lost a perfectly winnable game with useless repeal in hand, unable to move opp's sun titan, i have moved back to vapor snags. (Time did tell, and rather quickly in this case.. )